The tactics of ridicule, the tactic of ignoring the base, tactic of appeasing the right....

[madfloridian]

Just think about the way these are used lately. They are the methods used by the centrist leaning Democrats to keep those who question the direction we are going as a party in a place where we are ineffective.

The ridicule is used here at DU often. It ignites anger, as it is meant to do. It makes people want to fight back against the machine people know is there but feel helpless against. It is meant to support a certain candidate and make others look foolish. But the vitriol is more likely to result in a large scale staying home and not voting for the inevitable.

The tactic of ridicule is being used quite widely in Florida now. It is working. Florida worked with the GOP here to get the vote through for the early primary. Then they immediately started the ridicule of Howard Dean and the DNC. It was well orchestrated indeed. They covered up their own dirty deeds by shifting blame and filing lawsuits.

Florida Democrats were on board with the Republicans here in March 2006.

The "ignoring the base" is being used right now by our party. The mindset for years now in the Democratic party is that if they play to the conservative base they will win. They will do so even going so far as to defend bombing Iran, I fear. It is easier to sound "tough and smart" than to tell the truth and risk attacks by the righty bloggers and Fox News. Our machine is not as effective, and they do not fear us.

Neither do they respect us.

They are putting through bills made in secret meetings.

The final version of the bill also dropped a requirement that the director of national intelligence conduct an assessment of the effects of global climate change on national security. The overall legislation would give Congress' approval for the whole range of intelligence programs over the coming year, including spy satellites and eavesdropping, human spying and battlefield collection, along with recommended spending levels. Most of the bill is secret.

They are having to be watched by the ACLU day and night and passing bills that are train wrecks ready to happen

The bottom line is that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are disorganized and giving no signals to members on the FISA wiretapping expansion and retroactive immunity to telecom companies, which is going to result in horrific legislation. In the Senate, Jay Rockefeller is once again inviting Mike McConnell into closed hearings on how to fix the FISA law, and the markup is next week. There are no drafts of legislation around, which is a bad The Senate Judiciary Committee is hamstrung by Dianne Feinstein, who prevents a majority, and by the instincts of Democrat leaders who, in a conflicts between Judiciary and Intelligence, will go with Intelligence because of a perceived fear of national security weakness.

Rockefeller, in order to get something 'bipartisan' that can pass the Senate, is working with Kit Bond to draft something that can get to 60 votes. Bond of course is close to McConnell, and so it's likely that the bill coming out of the Senate Judiciary is going to contain retroactive immunity for telecom companies (thank you lobbyist Jamie Gorelick) and a permanent fix to FISA that expands executive power

It is almost unbelievable how quickly the lobbyists moved in and took control.

As for the appeasing...they are allowing the right wing to set the message and control the agenda. I don't know if they are aware they are doing it, but the ignoring of the base plays into that as well. They have the centrist think tanks making sure the netroots/nutroots are put in their places.

Letting the GOP control the agenda

Two of the worst that come to mind recently are the censure of Move On and the resolution about Iran.

MoveOn hit a nerve. In the face of truth, the right-wing has been forced to change the subject -- away from the administration's betrayal of trust and the escalating tragedy of the occupation to of all things, an ad! To take the focus off maiming and death and the breaking of our military, they talk about etiquette.The truth has reduced them to whining: MoveOn was impolite. Rather than face the truth, they use character assassination against an organization whose three million members stand for the highest patriotic principles of this country, the first of which is a commitment to truth.

And the Iran resolution. They are still spinning this.

Despite the removal of the most directly threatening rhetoric, the resolution still endorses the position of the Bush administration--mainly that Iran is engaged in a proxy war against the United States in Iraq. The resolution urges the Bush administration to designate Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps as a foreign terrorist organization and urges the administration to impose strict economic sanctions on Iraq. The resolution--despite being non-binding--is a significant escalation in the rhetoric towards Iran in that it makes the claim that the Iranian military is a terrorist organization. The resolution also relies heavily on the recent testimony of General Petraeus and US Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker.

They apparently did not even see proof of it all. Just voted.

There is so much more, the votes the last year, the votes before that. Many of these were excused because the congressmen lived in red states. And many keep defending that.

Some things are just right and wrong, not red or blue.

The ridicule comes in various forms...the subtle put down, the obvious name-calling, the insinuation that the poster isn't truthful. It comes in various forms at the think tanks. I believe the words netroots, nutroots, neo-populists, fringe...come to mind first.

And we are told that if we just get more Democrats in office, it will change. Trouble is these are things that Democrats are doing right now, to each other.

[Dr.Phool]

1. Madfloridian, I love the research that you do.

You stay on top of a lot of things that I don't have time to do. Right now, I'm running back an forth to South Carolina, because of family problems, but I really do appreciate your taking the principled stance against these FDP and DLC repuke impersonators.

Keep up the good fight. I've gotta go back to SC soon, and don't have the time right now to help ya.

[madfloridian]

2. You do more than your share working in Florida.

Good luck on the family stuff.

[Dr.Phool]

3. It's not really problems.

Mom is dying. but that's a part of life. Not looking for sympathy, but I'm just running back and forth trying to keep my dad sane. How do I do that, when I'm trying to get him to come to Florida? Jesus Christ LOL!?

[madfloridian]

14. So sorry to hear about your mom.

That is a terribly hard thing to go through. I have done it with both parents, and it was heartbreaking. Keep up your spirits.

[saracat]

4. One of the best posts ever Madflo!

[stranger81]

5. k&r -- great post. [n/t]

[leveymg]

6. Happy to rec this - important point.

Now, how do we convince "our" Congressmen that they need us, too?

[lonestarnot]

7. Ridicule as a tactic.

Not for me. Ridicule of truth as a tactic is one I do not understand. I do not understand letting the piglicons control any fucking thing.

[elizm]

8. Thank you for this post. All of this points to....

All this points to why I do not understand those who say "I will vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever it is" and refuse to see it any other way. It is that mindset that will keep the Democratic party stuck and USELESS.

[rucky]

9. If a (D) Congressperson from a "Red State" votes w/ the GOP

why did that district elect a Democrat in the first place?

I am not buying the Blue Dog excuse.

[Lerkfish]

10. I've said before: if your own team members score points against you, does it matter what

jersey they wear?

[Echo In Light]

11. Of course the right is ALLOWED to establish the framework

Divide and rule. America has one corporate party with two right-wings. This is why genuinely liberal ideas and philosophy are deemed "loony" by the right and their "moderate" dem counterparts: trivialize and downplay any serious interference.

[Armstead]

12. Exactly...

Having Democrats in power these days is just as frustrating as Democrats being out of power....More so, because there are fewer excuses.

[madfloridian]

20. Unfortunately, I must agree with you.

Fewer excuses.

[LoZoccolo]

13. Maybe you should clarify what you mean by "base".

Are you talking about the people who hang out on Democratic Underground, or the overall constituency of the Democratic Party?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3586947

[madfloridian]

15. Yes, LZ, I do mean people who hang out at DU. I most surely do.

I think there are a very very very vocal few who are not part of the overall base of the party. But it is pretty doggoned easy to spot the Democratic base here.

They mostly are kind people, most hate wars of empire, most believe in open government, most are anti-torture.

And more and more are starting to realize you get what you vote for.

I have answered this question so many times to some of you. I guess I will just keep on answering it.

[LoZoccolo]

17. How do you explain the large discrepancies in opinion? n/t

[madfloridian]

18. Because we are Democrats.

There is nothing wrong with differences in opinions.

What is becoming very wrong to me is the "fall in line" stuff.

It would be ok if we felt sure our party was heading in the right direction, but lately they do not seem to be.

It is like they are playing a game of chicken with Bush. Since he won't quit, they need to stop it. They will lead us off a cliff if it continues.

[LoZoccolo]

23. What would be your generic definition of "base"?

I mean this in a non-specific, non-partisan sense. Every party has a "base"; what would be the generic definition of a "base" to you?

[madfloridian]

24. The foundation.

.

[LoZoccolo]

25. Do you really want to render much of your OP meaningless? n/t

[madfloridian]

26. I am sure you would like to do so.

Look up the meaning of base. There are so many, but in the end it is the structural foundation of an entity.

I wish you cared as much about our country as about catching me miswording something.

If the party doesn't think that people like us here who oppose the war, want us to stand up and speak out, who want us to reign a president who is destroying this country...then perhaps they will learn.

You care more about gotcha stuff.

[LoZoccolo]

27. OK, in _partisan_politics_, what defines a "base"?

You use this word in the title of your post to make an accusation, so it's pretty important. Who's being ignored? The majority of Democrats, or just people who agree with your particular opinions?

[Jim Sagle]

33. Ahh yess...the DU DLC contingent's answer to Patrick Fitzgerald.

Not. :boring:

[...of J.Temperance]

35. I think it's somewhat ironic that the OP refers to

"Ridiculing the base"

It unfortunately appears more often than not....that some people can't wait to throw barbs at the DLC and get in little digs.

So, who's ridiculing who again?

I really can't understand why those who seem to, for some utterly bizarre reason hate the DLC, insist on trying to drive wedges between sections of OUR political party.

We're ALL Democrats, just because we might differ on certain specific issues, doesn't make us DLCer's any LESS Democratic Party members and supporters than those who obviously hate us.

Litmus tests aren't a good thing, and neither is adopting an "Us and Them" attitude to members of the SAME political party as you.

United we stand, divided we fall, and all that jazz, you know?

[madfloridian]

38. Some Democrats are more equal than others...

to paraphrase.

I am one of the less equal ones according to many of you here because I question why we keep doing these things over and over.

But I know the answer.

[...of J.Temperance]

40. You're wrong

You are NOT less equal than ANYONE else in this party, and I'm genuinely sorry and somewhat dismayed that you've been made to feel that you're less equal.

I'd like us ALL just to try and get along better, and to not adopt this "Us and Them" approach, we should try our best wherever possible to at least meet each other halfway and discuss issues with each other.

You know, you'd be surprised how much more in common we DLCer's might have with you than you think, if you'd just give us a chance, and not treat us like we're some sort of evil force.

[madfloridian]

42. Of course we have a lot in common. My post did not mention the DLC at all.

I was posting about a party that has forgotten who they are. The lobbyists are heading this way, and too many are already on board in this party.

Of course there is a lot in common. But there are others who forget that.

I will post when I see something that bothers me, otherwise I let the group alone.

They do control the policy, though. Every word spoken, every move can be found at one of the trio's sites.

[...of J.Temperance]

46. Mr. Sagle brought the DLC into it

Sorry that I directed my DLC comments at you then....D'oh!

I don't think we as a party have forgotten who we are, I think we've just got some massively complex problems out there, mainly thanks to the past seven years of sheer lunacy and chaos courtesy of the W Administration.

The lobbyists have always been around in politics, it's nothing new, and the lobbyists will always be around in politics.

There is a lot we have in common, keeping Social Security safe - and YES I somewhat disagree with Rahm Emmanuel's recent statement - making sure that as many children have adequate health insurance, making sure that abortion remains safe, legal and rare....and that Roe v Wade is never overturned, making sure that our gay brothers and sisters are given the SAME rights as us straight folk, making sure that Stem Cell Research including Embryonic Stem Cell Research IS adequately funded and that scientists and doctors are given ALL the tools they need to carry out that vital research....making sure that the sick and elderly DON'T have to choose between buying food and heating their home and buying prescription drugs that they NEED to keep them in health....etc.

Personally I'd like us to concentrate and work on the issues that UNITE us, and not argue about the issues that DIVIDE us.


On Edit: Dammit spelling error

[Jim Sagle]

39. I take your point...proudly.

The DLC faction does not traffic in issue-oriented debate, and so I give them none.

[...of J.Temperance]

41. I'm fully in support of issue-oriented debate

Unlike some other people, I do respect differing opinions, and where possible I do try and find at least SOME common ground.

We need to stop fighting each other, we're BOTH parts of the SAME party, but we need some respect here....the way I see it, it's the DLC that's always getting called names and we're thought of as if we're almost in-human....and you know that's incredibly unfortunate.

[Jim Sagle]

45. Try to understand that it may not be personal, even if it's expressed that way.

Many on your side use the bandwagon approach along with terms like lefty loony, socialist etc. to squelch their opponents.

More importantly, the DLC's past overwhelming lock on the party's DC apparatus combined with their relative lack of electoral success have embittered many of us who know a populist approach would be better politics AND better policy.

When the frustration comes out, it's not always pretty.

[...of J.Temperance]

48. Okay that's cool

Even though I do disagree with some of your comments there, specifically, the DLC's relative lack of electoral success....we control Congress because Congressman Rahm Emmanuel chose the majority of those newly elected Congressmen and Congresswomen :)

Obviously, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm totally opposed to Socialism, I just think it's a disasterous political philosophy and tends to be disasterous whenever any government attempts to implement it.

Then again, I expect that you are totally opposed to fiscal conservatism that us DLCer's fully support....and like my total opposition to Socialism, your probable total opposition to fiscal conservatism is respected by me and recognized as healthy in a political debate and climate.

We can't all agree on everything all of the time, it'd be terribly boring if we did!

[Jim Sagle]

54. Your reply was civil, and that helps. (Read your ally's comments for some ugly counter-examples.)

However...

we control Congress because Congressman Rahm Emmanuel chose the majority of those newly elected Congressmen and Congresswomen

Absolutely false. We won Congress with Dean's 50-state strategy, and DESIPITE Emanuel's approach. The best example of that was the Barrington Illinois district where Emanuel betrayed a good local candidate, imported an incompatible outsider, and blew the election along with millions of campaign dollars.

Based just on this EGREGIOUS falsehood I'm already getting a VERY bad feeling about where you're coming from.

Obviously, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm totally opposed to Socialism

Nothing wrong with being opposed to socialism in general, depending on what you mean by the term. But IF you use that opposition as an excuse to promote social security privatization or universal health care, you're no Democrat. (Note the IF - I'm not assuming your stance on these issues.)

BTW, I'm not a socialist in any hardcore sense. I merely expressed opposition to the use of the term as a dismissive way to avoid debate.

Then again, I expect that you are totally opposed to fiscal conservatism

Your expectations are wrong again. And they're based on nothing.

fiscal conservatism that us DLCer's fully support

Some DLCers, perhaps including yourself, may be fiscal conservatives. Those DLCers who support the ruinous Bush tax cuts, the insanely expensive Iraq war, and the bloated Pentagon budget are not.

We can't all agree on everything all of the time, it'd be terribly boring if we did!

That is true, but I think there needs to be a closing of the ranks against ideas that put corporations over people: wide-open free trade, open borders, and reckless privatization to list just a few.

[LoZoccolo]

43. It's a simple question, but it still hasn't been answered.

People use it to mean anything they want. It is especially ridiculous when people talk about how Dennis Kucinich represents the "base" when he gets 1%-3% of the primary vote, and a good number of those are people who are constantly threatening to walk out.

[dionysus]

65. BWAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

that post "rawks" :)

[antigop]

16. Mad, are you familiar with union-busting tactics? Quite similar....n/t

[madfloridian]

19. Yes, and I remember the Reagan years hurting very badly.

My own Republican family despised that I belonged to the teachers' union. It got pretty heated. Hubby was union also, and he felt their wrath.

[ShortnFiery]

21. Kudos madfloridian! How hard will the "fat and sassy" Third Way Corporatists work for The Party?

I think some *centrists* are about to face a cold, hard dose of REALTY. Plus since they've kicked the LIBERALs and the amorphous "left of center" to the curb, these CENTRISTS can only blame themselves when their political a**es are handed to them. :shrug:

[...of J.Temperance]

36. "Fat and sassy Third Way Corporatists"

Personally, with all due respect, I don't really think that you have any idea what you're even talking about.

The majority of people are in the Center, the Center is the mainstream, the majority of people have rejected BOTH political extremes, and instead have chosen Moderate Democratic politics....I believe that the majority of the people want fiscal responsibility and moderately liberal social policies.

[Armstead]

44. The so-called center has been pushed to the right

Corporate America and its stooges in the political system have managed to push the modern defination of the "center" so far to the right that they are free to get away with crap that would have been considered unthinkable in the 1960's.

But it's not the center of real-people politics.

In the present calculation pushed by the DLC, someone like Hubert Humphrey -- a real moderate Democrat -- would be branded as a "fringe leftist" today.

[...of J.Temperance]

52. There is nothing wrong with

Big Business Corporations, heck they employ MILLIONS of people, the economic system would completely collapse, were it not for Corporations.

Personally I don't see Hubert Humphrey as a Moderate Democrat, he was probably a Moderate Democrat compared to say Robert Kennedy, who was more Left-Wing than Humphrey was.

Where would YOU say the Center was then, politically speaking?


On Edit: Dammit another spelling error *sigh*

[Totally Committed]

22. Awesome post!

Glad to add my recommend!


TC

[againes654]

28. You say it so much more

eloquently than I ever could. Thank you!!

K&R

[backscatter712]

29. Yep, America is dead.

Democracy is dead. Liberty is dead.

I've given up hope. All I'm seeing is the GOP playing Bad Cop and the Democrats playing Good Cop, but they're both part of the Big Business party that's systematically dismantling the middle class, turning us all into serfs, and setting up the police state to crush anyone that doesn't like it.

I'm now seriously thinking of moving some place like New Zealand.

[defendandprotect]

30. IMO, what's lacking here is an IMPEACHMENT response to Bush/Cheney crimes ---

and I think we should try to move that more seriously --

everything else would then fall into place ---

IMPEACH!!!!

[creeksneakers2]

31. FISA UPDATE

Behind The Scenes, Liberals Ponder Supporting FISA Legislation
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/10/behind_scenes_liberals_ponder_supporting_fisa_legislation.php

I agree with you about the way Democrats run away from the right wing. I have a small disagreement with the OP. I don't believe Democrats negotiating a spy bill in secret is a cave in to the GOP. Spy bills and stuff about spying are always secret.

[madfloridian]

32. Here's the ACLU today on the FISA bill.

http://www.aclu.org:80/safefree/general/32104prs20071009.html

There may be some of the bill that needs to be secret, but our freedoms have been given away the last 6 years.

Sounds like this bill is better, but still doesn't address individuals being spied on here.

They have done too much privately, like the trade bill Rangel sealed and said he would catch hell later on it. Ram it through and catch hell later was his philosophy.

[KoKo]

60. Kick & Recommend!

[slipslidingaway]

34. Excellent and thank you, this is the danger we risk when we

support a party that is 'not as bad' as the other party.

[Capn Sunshine]

37. AWESOME POST, MF!

:applause:
Much of the philosophy you expose is certainly prevalent in the inside the beltway crowd.
We all know who they support.

Anyone of them would be first to tell you we can only win by moving right.

[madfloridian]

58. Appreciate the kind words

Hope all is well, Capn
:hi:

[hedda_foil]

63. The DLC apologists here would be wise to heed the Capn.

Capn Sunshine isn't just a longtime DUer, he's also a party insider and former member of and avid proponent of the DLC. His shift to opposing the DLC-driven Third Way didn't come easily. He was one of the most vocal DLC supporters on these boards around four years ago -- WAYYYY surpassing LZ's enthusiasm. The dismissive behavior of From and Co.toward the true center of the party (which is NOT corporatist) and the election-losing strategies of their candidates and consultant, plus a lot of research and discussion here on DU convinced him. And that was back in the day when DUers did real research and had substantive discussions rather than food fights.

[madfloridian]

66. Yes, he knows whereof he speaks on that subject, hedda

:applause: for a good response.

Yes, most of us are part of the "true center". And they don't want us to know it.

[pingzing58]

47. Pelosi ridiculed us for being the liberal right and threatened to give us a "civic lesson" on how

congressional government works. But since we were the ones who fought for Civil Rights, for Equal Opportunity in access to Education, for Women's Rights, etc., who protested against our government in the 70's under Ronald Reagan who created puppet governments in Latin America and elsewhere and we are still trying to establish puppet governments a fight we haven't won because of people like Pelosi who are coopted by a government intent on maintaining an Fascist Empire with colonialism as its fuel, I'm offended she considers us civically ignorant. The recent revelation of nuclear missiles being moved against the law reminds me of Reagan's clandestined support of the so called "freedom fighters" that in 1987 was exposed as the Iran-Contra scandal. In a sense we at home are the ones who are vigilant and fight for our freedoms and what is right and just in the world and we will not be silenced by the likes of narrow minded, bumbling idiots (I'm sorry, but even before she was named Speaker, I always wondered why she couldn't articulate an idea, policy or thought, in public; did she forget to take her medication) like Pelosi. As nations grow in economic strength (China, European Union, Arab Emerits, India, Pakistan) and military strength the empirealistic Dem's like Pelosi and Clinton will bring us all down when the U.S. Empire crumbles. As Walt Kelly said: We have met the enemy and the enemy is us! To paraphrase Justice Breyer: It is not often that so few Democratic leaders have so quickly changed all that we have struggled for as human beings.

[BootinUp]

49. For those who only see ridicule directed at them

I guess I can understand your post in that light. I find it fucking amazing how the attacks against many here are overlooked because some members don't fit the group think of the netroots.


Politics isn't just about being right, its about winning the popular vote and how that is achieved is through knowing how to fight battles, and when not to.

[madfloridian]

50. That is what my post is about.....losing while winning.

You say politics is about winning the popular vote. If you extend that theory on outward...then issues and morals mean nothing.

And those who keep a group from winning the popular vote...are, well...unpopular.

[BootinUp]

53. Whose morals? This is a democracy

Everyone with a vote has a say on which candidate has the right morals. The challenge for a national candidate is to represent the majority view, and be nominated by one party for the chance. Its not a game for black and white moralists. And should we not play to win? I have very little patience for your simplistic view of politics and your lack of understanding about how congress works to be frank.

[madfloridian]

56. Yes, I do have a simplistic view of politics and life.

So if you choose to have little patience with me, that is ok.

Because of the push to win at any cost, we are in a tragic mess in Iraq. We are stumbling blindly as a country as well.

Actually your view of me is just fine. I think we should stand for something, you think winning is all important no matter what.

Yes, I am simplistic in my views.

[illinoisprogressive]

51. Great Post, floridian. I applaud you and you are correct.

[pingzing58]

55. Oh, by the way, thanks Madfloridian, your posts inspire me and my thoughts I always relay this info

to Dem organizers and candidates here in Texas. We are friends and heated or not we listen to each other. I check out your posts every day.

[madfloridian]

57. Nice words. Thank you.

We have kids in TX, one a staunch Republican, one a Democrat. We have often donated to candidates there. In fact I still get emails from Richard Morrison and Van Os.

[madfloridian]

59. False centrism abounds.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1586

Howie Klein, Howard Dean, and George Lakoff are quoted about being a real moderate and practicing a centrism that is false in its nature.

That kind of centrism is geared to impressing the right wing. It will let Bush end up in Iran, let the telecoms off the hook, and much more.

[madfloridian]

61. Ridicule is rampant this week.

That is about all I have to say.

[Totally Committed]

62. kick

TC

[ShortnFiery]

64. Excellent research and powerful commentary!

:dem: IMO, you're one profoundly talented researcher and writer.