De-constructing Howard

[Clark4Prez]

We've heard it over and over than Howard Dean, unlike all the other candidates in the field is raising his money in small amounts from average people. We've also heard from his supporters about how his fund raising has jumped to levels that no one can even hope to catch him. All of which would be quite impressive, if it were accurate.

A website called http://www.fundrace.org has broken down the numbers. A review of those numbers is quite telling indeed.

First, Dean's average contribution has dropped 9.1% from this quarter to last, oddly his contributions per donor (the times the same person has given) have jumped almost 30%.


Avg Total Contribution This Quarter Last Quarter Change


Howard Dean #8 $540.21 #8 $592.90 -9.1%


Contributions per Donor This Quarter Last Quarter Change


Howard Dean #1 1.83 #1 1.41 +29.80


As far as percentage of income goes, Dean supporters give less than every one else. This is interesting in light of how much we hear about his "energized base" of support. Consider that supporters of Carol Mosely Braun, give twice as much as a percent of their income then Dean supporters.


Avg % of Income Donated This Quarter Last Quarter Change


Howard Dean #10 1.2% #9 1.4% -15%



We have heard that Dean's support comes from the common working person, as opposed to the fat cat rich folks. Again the facts just don't support this. Dean's supporters make $4,000 a year less than Bush supporters and $4,000 more than supporters of Kucinich. Dean donors, Clark donors, and Gephardt donors all make within $200 a year of each other.



Avg Income of Donors This Quarter Last Quarter
Joseph I Lieberman #1 $74.5k #1 $74.6k
John F Kerry #2 $71.9k #2 $72.0k
George W Bush #3 $66.7k #3 $68.5k
Wesley Clark #4 $64.4k #NA NA
Richard A Gephardt #5 $64.3k #4 $64.9k
Howard Dean #6 $62.5k #5 $63.0k
Alfred C Sharpton #7 $60.5k #9 $55.1k
John Edwards #8 $58.8k #7 $59.0k
Dennis J Kucinich #9 $58.0k #6 $59.6k
Carol Moseley Braun #10 $55.8k #8 $55.2k



What does this mean, well it means that although Dean started strong in the fund raising, he has not "energized" his base supporters in to more people giving more money. Something that will need to happen if he is to beat Bush, since he as opted out of federal matching funds.

So the next time a Dean supporter tells you about how many people give so much money to Dr. Dean, you might wish to tell them, you know it's just not so.

[Democrats unite]

1. Thanks for your time in this...

I just can't wait for the rebuttal!

It is about to hit.

[DancingBear]

7. Well,that didn't take long

:) :) :)

Note to Clark4Prez - thanks! Always nice to see hard core numbers to back a claim up.

What a concept! :)

[madfloridian]

23. Yep, really firm numbers. See below.

:hi:

[OrAnarch]

42. rebutt this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=35338


And should there be any question why of all candidates, I would be extremly apprehensive of Clark? For those people who support no one, attack threads in your candidate's name do a great deal of help in eliminating certain possibilities. For those like me, you may find an irrelevant thread like this far more damaging to Clark than Dean.

[bearfartinthewoods]

53. IS ANYTHING RELEVEANT TO DEAN SUPPORTERS

mispeaks , clarifications, flip flops and flubs......irrelevent
misrepresentations, threat and sealed records....poop.

the thig is there are some issues that really are relevant like


only 20% of registered voters want a candidate that opposes the war.

we are soooo screwed.

[TeacherCreature]

55. try saying something "releveant" and we will let you know

Why are you yelling?

[bearfartinthewoods]

64. so i could be heard

i know some people have their heads stuck in the sand so i have to speak loudly

[Melinda]

2. Your math doesn't add up.

"Dean donors, Clark donors, and Gephardt donors all make within $200 a year of each other."

Joseph I Lieberman #1 $74.5k #1 $74.6k
John F Kerry #2 $71.9k #2 $72.0k
George W Bush #3 $66.7k #3 $68.5k
Wesley Clark #4 $64.4k #NA NA
Richard A Gephardt #5 $64.3k #4 $64.9k
Howard Dean #6 $62.5k #5 $63.0k
Alfred C Sharpton #7 $60.5k #9 $55.1k
John Edwards #8 $58.8k #7 $59.0k
Dennis J Kucinich #9 $58.0k #6 $59.6k
Carol Moseley Braun #10 $55.8k #8 $55.2k

--------------------------------------

Not according to the graph you posted above. The "k" represents one thousand, not one hundred.

[Clark4Prez]

9. You're right

Dean supporters make $200 a month less than Clark supporters. However they make $400 a month more than Edwards supporters, who give 3.3% of their income to Edwards.

So, which of the Democratic candidates has the most energized base when in comes to fund raising?

[madfloridian]

11. So tell me how you know that?

How do you know what I make? That is not required at donation time. Do NOT say ZIP code, I repeat.....ZIP is not a true indicator.

You posted this, now you tell me how you know our income level, how the campaign knows it.

Waiting.

[Clark4Prez]

17. Read my post again

It didn't come from a campaign it came from http://www.eyebeam.org/

Their campaign donation website is:

http://www.fundrace.org/index.html

[madfloridian]

19. Don't have to read it.....they do NOT know my income when I donate.

I have done a lot of donating to candidates. Not once have I ever had to give my income. You can not tell income just by zip code.

There is nothing to convince me they know my income. That is faulty.

[DancingBear]

26. On a serious note

I know that Dean often uses a line in his speech(?) about the "average" donor figure - $77, if I am correct. How does the campaign come up with this figure? If it does so by simple division, then is that nothing different then, for example, Bush pointing to a homeless man standing next to a millionaire and saying the average income of these two citizens is $500,000? If so, this is indeed "fuzzy math", and should be discredited by any and all.

Also, exactly what is so upsetting about a web site that attempts to track average donations? We can quibble about methodology, but what in there strikes you with such force that you are compelled to respond as you do? It does it for all the candidates, I assume, in the same fashion, so what can it be? I am asking this with all seriousness, as I don't see anything there (aside from the methodology). Zip codes, BTW, are a main target for those looking to target certain income groups. An acquaintance owns an auto dealership, and they rely on said data to a great degree, and put great stock in it.

[Padraig18]

29. It's 'garbage science', is my main objection.

When coupled with the headline, it's vaguely offensive.

[DancingBear]

33. I was asking madfloridian

Padraig18, but if I want your opinion I'll ask for it. I promise.

Thanks - I'm sure you'll find another thread (or 100) to contribute to. :)

[madfloridian]

35. And you just got my answer below.

Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

[madfloridian]

32. Uh, he means the average amount of donation....though it varies some.

That's it.
I don't care who uses zip codes, it is not a good way to determine income. It does not matter what you think or don't think.

My problem, it is with the Clark supporters here who have chosen to try to destroy Dean's candidacy. I really don't care about the amounts of donations, etc. If you are implying something to do with zip code, which I infer from your post.....we live in a high level zipcode where the rich folks live.....but we are not really rich. Just sort of.
Was that what you wanted?
It is the onslaught here wave after wave of attacks that concern me. The condescension in your post was the icing on the cake on my decision. My husband would not have supported Clark anyway, but I was trying to be a good Democrat. Now I don't care. I will just be a good American.

See this:
Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

[Padraig18]

36. "...wave after wave of attacks that concern me...."

Exactly! It IS an onslaught, and I'm growing VERY weary of them. You might note the results of my poll on negative posts---it tells quite a tale about those who delude themselves into believing they are in any way 'helping' their candidate by doing it.

:hi:

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. if dean supporters see any info posted about dean

as an attack, they better start learning to defend instead of
pooh-poohig or pooping

[Padraig18]

69. That's not the case at all.

It's the flame bait, repeatedly-debunked, meadow-muffin variety stuff that we're getting weary seeing posted time and time and time again, but thanks for the advice.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

84. I think you all have toughened up a bit. Just think - after this, you'll

be able to take anything....

[Code_Name_D]

86. Oh gee, will not more than 50 dean supporters post a defences?

Make that 60. 59 would be a flook.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

83. IMO - most of the die-hard supporters will not leave him...

If they still support him after the Confederate flag comments and his "Meet the Press" performance - they will ALWAYS be with him. He has some people who are extremely committed. The people who are swayed are the "on the fencers."

To be honest, much as I like my candididate - if he screwed up really bad or if I became convinced that he couldn't win - I'd be candidate shopping REAL QUICK no matter how much I personally liked him (unless they were a personal friend or something).

There are also a few issues that I will never compromize on and if I all of a sudden found out that he was on the other side of the fence - that would be the end of me. I've learned not to be too attached to a candidate - it's not good for your mental health IMO because "funny things happen" in politics.

[DancingBear]

38. Take a break, madf

Your emotions are running high. There was no condescension in my post, at least none that was deliberate. I was merely asking questions, that's all. Your zip code address means nothing to me - I don't even know you.

The attacks run both ways. I could substitute "Dean" with your "Clark" and make the same impassioned arguments - many times over.

We'll talk again (maybe) when things cool down.

[madfloridian]

39. Repeat after me, I am perfectly calm.

I am smiling. There will be no further discussions. We have proof of the onslaughts here. There will be no further discusssion.

There comes a time when people go past decency. That has happened.

See, I am smiling. :-)

On Edit: I forgot this.

Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322


:-) :-)

[DancingBear]

40. Good for you!

Goodnight.

[SahaleArm]

70. From Census Data - Not your Income (Read the top)...

By comparing census income data to the size of contributions from different zip codes, we can see which candidates are really inspiring people to empty their wallets for the cause.

[Padraig18]

3. They don't know what my income is.

They can't know. Your math is also fuzzy...

[NashVegas]

6. Zip Codes

Is that the chart is going by. It's not an exact science, to say the least, but in larger cities it can be revealing.

[Padraig18]

8. Zip codes?

LOL... Um, OK. To call it 'not an exact science' is being generous, IMO. I'd call it 'pure crap', frankly.:eyes:

[corporatewhore]

30. umm lets see in austin you can tell whos rich

by where they live

[NashVegas]

48. Same in Nash Vegas

37205 - old money
37212 - well-off hipsters
37067/37064 - new money, and loves showing it off

[SahaleArm]

72. Census info is a good data point n/t

[unfrigginreal]

4. I've got 8:00 tomorrow night in the pool

for when Dean's Bat passes Clark's fundraiser. What have you got?

[madfloridian]

5. Thank you for turning me off your candidate.

I have tried not to let it bother me what has happened here. I really have.

I do not think I could vote for Clark now, I really don't. Maybe the others. I don't know.

This post or whatever you call it, has been debunked by other sites. In fact right here if you do a search.

You just did it. The constant barrage here. You will not change my mind about Dean, in fact you have turned me off to Clark with your attacks.

[FrenchieCat]

12. Is this an attack......

or just facts being reported? Cause I am confused as to what signifies an attack. Is it just anything posted that doesn't put Howard Dean in a good light? Let me know if I'm out of line.


Dean Vermont Energy Group Met in Private
http://tinyurl.com/2f573

WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean (news - web sites) has demanded release of secret deliberations of Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites)'s energy task force. But as Vermont governor, Dean had an energy task force that met in secret and angered state lawmakers.

Dean's group held one public hearing and after-the-fact volunteered the names of industry executives and liberal advocates it consulted in private, but the Vermont governor refused to open the task force's closed-door deliberations.

In 1999, Dean offered the same argument the Bush administration uses today for keeping deliberations of a policy task force secret.

More......................go to link!

[Clark4Prez]

14. Actually, I came to the same conclusion

After my encounter with the Dean supporters at the Florida Democratic Convention this month. Of all the candidates and their supporters that were there, only Dean's were confrontation, arrogant, and in some cases rude.

It was after that my wife and I decided there is no way we could support Dean in the primaries*. To paraphrase the bumper sticker, "Dr. Dean save me from your followers." Amen.


*If he wins the nomination, however, I will fully support him and will give the moment he becomes the nominee, because all said I am still ABB!

[madfloridian]

16. Then you vote for Clark, we will vote for Dean.

I think you really are unaware of how you just keep hurting your candidate. I really think you are.

[bearfartinthewoods]

63. oh yeah... like 'sensitive' dean supports were ever likely

to switch to clark.

or maybe this is mooe of the NBD stuff....nobody but dean?

[madfloridian]

65. Yes, maybe.

I don't have to tell you that. It is my business. You can now insult me all you want, and it does not matter. The damage has been done.

[Northwind]

25. The difference being...

That the loss of Dean supporters means huge numbers, whereas the loss of Clark supporters means just about nothing. Big deal.

[Clark4Prez]

28. That's what I am talking about, exactly

If you're not for Dean you don't count. Great attitude, buddy!

[madfloridian]

34. The difference being we no longer accept your insults.

Thanks for helping us to our decision.

[Clark4Prez]

51. When did I insult you?

At what point did I insult you?

I shared with you data on donations and cited my sources. How is that an insult?

I shared the behavior of Dean supporters at the FDC, how is that an insult?

I am told by another Dean supporter that I don't matter anyway, and I respond with the observation that is exactly the attitude that turned me off. And yet you claim that I am insulting you!!

Perhaps you need to learn the difference between and insult and an oberservation. (That, for the record, was an insult, see the difference?)

[bearfartinthewoods]

68. you insulted when you forgot to POOP

Please Offer Only Praise...it's a credo..

[Melinda]

31. You're the only one then. FL Clark & Dean supporters there say otherwise

And they posted about their experiences, while we watched on CSPAN. I'll even go find the threads for you and post them in this thread.

So, tell us more about your experience at the FL Dem Convention and please, don't hold back. We want details.

[Melinda]

43. DU Threads from the FL Democratic convention:

Let's start with what Jen6 reported:

I got back from the Florida Democratic meeting at Disney’s Coronado springs resort. I arrived there a little late today, so I missed most of Kerry’s speech. Clark was great, very inspiring. I watched his speech from Deans rally room, which was to the left of the ballroom. All the deanies there clapped and cheered as Clark slammed Bush* and spoke of the administrations missed opportunities and lies, and they cheered and shouted their approval as Clark laid out his plans and policies for a better America. Imagine that! A room full of Dean supporters cheering for clark and saying to one another “he’s good! I’d vote for him”!

Outside, some contentious Clarkies and Deanies- most of whom weren’t even listening to the speeches-yelled “Wes will win”! and “Go dean go”! and one another for a while,but slowly the chants changed, and soon they all yelled in unison “BUSH MUST GO! BUSH MUST GO”. It was a beautiful thing.

"I Just Got Back From The Florida Democratic meeting...

Here's another by deminflorida:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=841128

There WERE six threads full of DU members who watched the coverage and posted about it, however only 3 seem to be archived - 3 are no longer in existence. Here are links to the 3; please show us the animosity you claim was there:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=836427

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=839605

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=840318

Video of the convention is also available at CSpan.org..

It'll be interesting to contrast your experience - thanks in advance for sharing everything. :hi:

[madfloridian]

44. This was beautiful. It would have been the dream team.

Outside, some contentious Clarkies and Deanies- most of whom weren’t even listening to the speeches-yelled “Wes will win”! and “Go dean go”! and one another for a while,but slowly the chants changed, and soon they all yelled in unison “BUSH MUST GO! BUSH MUST GO”. It was a beautiful thing.

I had forgotten Jen6 posted that. Bush must go. It would have been a good thing.

[Melinda]

47. Makes your heart hurt doesn't it?

I used to be supportive of all the candidates with the exception of Lieberman - my posts are an open book and will verify my past position. The hyperbole and vitriol born and carried out on DU has changed all that for me now - and it breaks my heart. I was always a Democrat first and foremost, but now... :(

[madfloridian]

50. Yes, it really does.

And the sad part is the next round will start again soon. It really needs to stop. Hatred on here all the time has done things to me inside. It is sad it had to come to this point.
My husband saw the event you mention, and he got tears in his eyes describing it.
He has never been involved much in politics before, and this was his first convention. He was moved by that episode. He no longer is.

[madfloridian]

37. My husband was there, I had running accounts via phone.

I have loads of pics. Others I know were there as delegates as well.

Bring your stories on. You see, it just does not matter anymore being nice. You guys don't understand what you have done to your candidate. Your hatred for us is stronger than your support for your candidate.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

85. I was there too! That totally did me in also....

It was mainly the union people who were bad though. The thing that I objected to was that the people in charge were obviously sending the Dean people with signs to "interrupt" all of the other candidates rallys and arrivals. They were trying to start fights with our people (who were mainly Seniors). I did meet a few nice Dean people, though - they weren't ALL like that. I met one nice Senior who was a Dean person who said she was going to come to our Clark rally.

The Kerry people were great - they actually helped us Clark people out when we were setting up for the rally and we cheered for Kerry when he came in.

[Jerseycoa]

27. I could vote for Dean. And you could vote for Clark.

We're good Dems. This happens to me, too, some days when the attacks against Clark are flying thick.

Take a rest from here, madfloridian.

:)

[madfloridian]

81. This is not true. There is no comparison between the numbers.

We have repeatedly asked Clark supporters to find and post the threads containing the Clark attacks and then the Dean attacks.

I think there is no doubt which list would be longer, say on a week's basis even.

This is not just a one day thing with me. My husband agrees. The way this has all been done, the way it has not been handled on here is just too much.

You just feel free to go ahead with them. It is ok now. I said that. Why should I have to take a rest? Do I not belong here?

[bearfartinthewoods]

60. when dean supporters say things like this it sounds like

venenge just like the threat dean made.

it really turns me off to dean........

[madfloridian]

61. Now that was the most intelligent remark I have heard.

You despise him with every ounce of your being, and now you get turned off because I said that.

How could you be turned off Dean when you already despise him so?

[RetroLounge]

74. venenge ???

yeah, venenge turns me off too... Whatever...

[rjbrooks]

10. Dean donations

I just donated to the Dean campaign again yesterday but after reading this I am sending another one.

[madfloridian]

13. Thanks, I am going to as well.

And checking Clark off our list.

[DancingBear]

18. OK, I'll double my Clark donation

just to keep things even. :hi:

[Rose Siding]

15. Tell 'em you KNOW it's not so but.....

don't study this too close, just run with it!

You *do* know that the target for this quarter is less than for the last, right? It is normally so in a primary. BTW, the Dean campaign has no IDEA how much money I make.

CMB has some good supporters. Go CMB!

[Duder]

20. Most interesting stat to me...

Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

[Clark4Prez]

21. Bush Donors 50,544 Dem Donors 73,565

I guess we do have the power! Go Dems!

[Lisa0825]

46. Ya know, if this was the sentiment most often expressed....

we'd be in good shape. Instead, it's most often, X trying to tear down Y. It makes me sick. I am Dean first, Clark 2nd, and I hate the way BOTH sides act on this board... like total BRATS. But thankfully, in real life, I have found all candidates'suporters to be much more hospitable. And I don't believe for a minute anyone's stories about rabid Dean supporters. As a member of that group, I know we, especially those of us new to the proces, really try to be welcoming and friendly, because bottom line... we're all in this together.

[Clark4Prez]

62. I've come to the same conclusion

Reading some of the responses to this post has caused me to wave the white flag on attack posts.

I'm done with them, I won't post anymore and I won't read any attack posts about any candidate.

I shouldn't have started this one, and I won't be posting any more, attacks on Dems that is, it's open season on GOP'ers in my book.

I was wrong, and I admit it. :dunce:

[Lisa0825]

66. Thank you

I appreciate your positive message.

[madfloridian]

22. Duder, you do find good things. Did you mean the number of donors?

Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

Just checking.
A :D for Duder, who is calm and collected, which I am not right now.

[Jerseycoa]

24. $64.4k

I only wish. :(

[MoonRiver]

41. Thanks for that reality check!

Clark for President in 2004! :kick:

[dsc]

67. too bad it is actually unreality

voodoo math of the lowest order.

[dsc]

45. This makes voodoo math look good

Using census data, we can see who is getting more contributions from wealthier neighborhoods. This allows us to calculate a theoretical average income of the candidates' suporters.

end of quote

This is such an idiotic way to compute the average income of donors as to be just stupid. Let me list the problems with this method.

1) Average income in an area says nothing about the income of any one person in that area. To take one example, Edwards get a lot of money from trial lawyers. Many of them live in rural areas. Rural areas have lower average incomes. That doesn't make the trial lawyers poor.

2) Taking an average, as opposed to median, income is misleading. To see a simple example say I and George Soros give money to Dean. My income of about 20k, another person's of 30k, and Soros' income (say $50 million) would be averaged. Would a 2k donation by me (and no, I have done no such thing) be any less of sacrifice due to it being averaged with Mr. Soros'? Using average would tell us it was. Our average income is $16 million while our median is 30k. Which is a fair representation?

3) No effort is made to deal with the jobs these people have (and that is reported to some extent). Thus the doctor and I both living in the same zip code are assumed to have the same income. Does that make sense? They think it does.

4) No effort is made to deal with family size. This also makes a huge difference as to level of sacrifice.

5) No effort is made to determine where in a zip code a donation comes from. The zip code of the city I live in has houses worth from 250k or so down to places barely fit to live. Again treated the same.

I could go on but I think I made my point.

In addition your subtraction is wrong in virtually every single instance.

One final thing. This also has the effect of overstating the average income of candidates who have large numbers of gay or jewish supporters. Both tend to live in higher income zip codes than the average person. To take one example gays in my area live largely in three zip codes, one is Lakewood, one is Cleveland Heights, and one is a good section of Cleveland. All have their incomes inflated by having wealthy mansions, and condos. I don't become wealthier by living next to a mansion.

[SahaleArm]

71. How many wealthy trial lawyers live in rural areas?

Most wealthy people live near each other in cities and suburbs. Look at the map, most of Edwards money is coming from those types of areas.

http://www.fundrace.org/moneymap.php?cand=Edwards&zoom=County

The data isn't perfect but it is somewhat representative, especially when you break it down to the county level. At the county-level you can really see the sparseness of fundraising for all the candidates. Median income would be a better statistic and more valuable take on the census data. Median income is a better measure when dealing high numerical variations. The middle 50% is proabably much less than the numbers indicate.

[dsc]

79. It is a well known fact that trial lawyers use rural jurisdictions

and do generally live in them, in order to have rural juries which are much more generous. Plus this is no more accurate that ouija boards.

[SahaleArm]

88. What does a trial lawyer's residence have to do...

with where the trial is held? Trial locations have to do with where the incident takes place or where the plaintiff resides. How many trial lawyers are suing mom and pop shops or farms?

[Hep]

49. We're doing just fine

but thanks for sharing your concern.

[madfloridian]

52. Yes, we are, you are right.

Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

And the bat hit 521 thousand at 8:00.
We are doing ok.

[caledesi]

56. funrace.org is biased. Take a really good look. Got to the

bottom for the "sister" site. All BS.

[madfloridian]

59. I see Google Race.

http://www.googlerace.com/

It says it isn't connected with Google, so how can they use the name?

Tell me more about this site.

[SahaleArm]

73. The same way Googlism can...

http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=Howard+Dean&type=1

[madfloridian]

78. It's ok now.

Your comments just bounce off now.

[SahaleArm]

87. I feel honored ;) n/t

[loyalsister]

57. I'd love to see state by state

In Missouri Gep has lost the unions after his threats and is left with trial lawyers for support.

[madfloridian]

58. This chart shows how many zips they get money from. Interesting.

http://www.fundrace.org/nZip.html

What does it mean? Nothing except Dean has a lot of zips!

[SahaleArm]

75. And you missed the best part of Fundrace and FEC disclosure...

How did Kucinich spend over $2000 in Des Moines? http://www.fundrace.org/hotels.html

How much did Clark, Kerry, and Dean spend on a single charter flight? http://www.fundrace.org/airlines.html

And Air Force One is called White House Air?

[Larkspur]

76. Dean has energized me and I'm donating the max this year

This is the FIRST time that I've ever donated the maximun ever and I'm excited by Howard Dean.

[poskonig]

77. I've only given around $30 a quarter.

By the reasoning of the lead post, it is impossible for me to be an energized Dean supporter.

Which is fallacious, naturally.

[CWebster]

80. Damn. looks like howard is in the

middle.

Huh....who woulda thought.

[Myra]

82. This is good info, thanks.

Very good info.