"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call

[madfloridian]

The DNC is offering to help them plan something after February 5th. But the DNC is not going to give in and give the delegates. They also plan to refuse delegates to Michigan, who moved their primary up today to January 15.

Now this part bothers me. It goes back to the fact that the Florida Party is not explaining this. If they take time to clarify the situation, Florida voters are not stupid, they will understand.

DNC members Jon Ausman and Allan Katz of Tallahassee and Janee Murphy of Tampa said Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state to find a way of picking delegates after Feb. 5 that would still offer maximum participation for the party rank-and-file.

"That's what I'm worried about, the average voter on the street who doesn't know about rules and technicalities," said Murphy, the state party secretary. "It was a nice, civil discussion with the chairman but we've got to remember that it's about the voters who want their ballots to count."

Explain it to them, Janee. It is not that hard.

Take down the propaganda on the Florida Democrats website, and start being honest. That is the way to handle it.

More from the article:

Fight is on over primary date

TALLAHASSEE — As Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean put out peace feelers to Florida Thursday, a Tampa party activist filed a federal lawsuit seeking to make the party recognize results of the state's Jan. 29 presidential primary.

Participants in an hour-long conference call with Dean said they held out hope for a compromise to resolve the DNC ultimatum to back off the early date. The party's rules committee last weekend gave Florida Democrats 30 days to comply with its rules that allow only four states — Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada — to select delegates before Feb. 5. Failure to do so will lead the national party to strip the state of its 210 votes at the Democratic National Convention.

More from the article about this uneasy situation.

U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and other Democratic members of the Florida congressional delegation have also threatened to take legal action.

The Democratic National Committee said they are within their rights.

"Florida has the right to determine its primary date. However, the Supreme Court determined more than 25 years ago that the Democratic Party has the legal right to establish the rules by which they select and seat delegates to the National Convention. We continue to hope that Florida will do the right thing and come up with a plan that's in compliance with the rules the DNC and its members from Florida voted for," said DNC spokeswoman Stacie Paxton.

So take down all the angry stuff from the website and keep talking. The DNC can not give in, and besides they know the backstory and wouldn't anyway. Put up on your website both sides, that the DNC did not steal the votes. If you had fought harder, the delegates would not have been taken away.

Florida website presents angry stories against DNC and Dean

Stop sending around angry emails for people to call the DNC, and instead send out emails explaining the situation truthfully.

[lligrd]

1. I Must Admit To Being Baffled By The Entire Primary Calendar

We all want our votes to count. And as a Californian, I can attest to feeling that we have always felt slighted. How do we make this fair? As far as I can guess, the reason we need to do on different dates is so that the candidates have time to campaign in different states (although tv and the internet are making that less necessary). So who exactly gets to decide which states are first and which are last, the DNC or the states themselves?

[DURHAM D]

2. It has not been a problem until recently.

Must be the me-machines of a certain generation.

Participation matters in every state - it just gets counted in a different way at the national convention. In caucus states you have to be more involved earlier - you can't wait until the last day and just go vote at the polls. We have always had a mixed bag of ways to participate. Nothing wrong with it.

[lligrd]

4. So The Caucus States Went Earlier Because ??

I almost thought I had it but actually it seems they would need more time.

[DURHAM D]

3. It has not been a problem until recently.

Must be the me-machines of a certain generation.

Participation matters in every state - it just gets counted in a different way at the national convention. In caucus states you have to be more involved earlier - you can't wait until the last day and just go vote at the polls. We have always had a mixed bag of ways to participate. Nothing wrong with it.

[madfloridian]

6. Florida can set the date, but the DNC can establish delegate rules.

"Florida has the right to determine its primary date. However, the Supreme Court determined more than 25 years ago that the Democratic Party has the legal right to establish the rules by which they select and seat delegates to the National Convention. We continue to hope that Florida will do the right thing and come up with a plan that's in compliance with the rules the DNC and its members from Florida voted for," said DNC spokeswoman Stacie Paxton."

There are several articles starting to say that they are glad the rush to move up is being challenged by the parties.

Suddenly this year it is a problem. Our primary was March 9 in 2004, and nobody cared one way or the other. When we complained our candidate had already dropped out, they shrugged.

[madfloridian]

5. Another suggestion to the Florida Democrats..stop calling for party bloodshed

This county seems to be eager for it, and is almost daring the DNC. There is so much wrong with that.

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed

Will there be a January 29th Florida Democratic Primary? Yes!

Will your vote count? Yes!

Will there be further inter-party bloodshed in our usual "circular firing squad"? Yes!

Will the FDP win the fight ... Yes!

Dave Dew, Chair
Martin County Democratic Executive Committee

Time for some cool heads and time for some total honesty. There has not been enough of that going around lately. Propaganda usually trumps truth in our country now, unfortunately.

This was shared around as an example of a fighting spirit. I call it bluster.

[nickgutierrez]

7. It's not even bluster.

It's just idiocy. I'm all for a fighting spirit, but at least pick the right enemy.

[Deep13]

8. If Dean caves in on this, states will start having primaries in December.

It is ridiculous that they are as front-loaded as they are. The primaries have already been reduced money grab for media time since there will be no opportunity after February to affect the outcome.

All FL needs to do is comply with the DNC rules to be counted. Dr. Dean is not trying to disenfranchise anyone.

[madfloridian]

12. They won't cave in. They can't. They will take away Michigan's delegates also.

"The Democratic and Republican national committees have indicated they will sanction Michigan for holding an early primary. The D.N.C. has said it will take away all the state’s national convention delegates, while the R.N.C. may refuse to seat half of them."

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/michigans...

[Orangepeel]

20. delete

oops! replied to the wrong post!

[Cameron27]

9. Dean didn't start this mess, and it's a shame to see him attacked,

but can the FL dems push back the primary date at this point?

[madfloridian]

10. Not unless the GOP wants to....BUT they can quit spreading lies.

I think that is the theme of all my posts on this. They have used propaganda to turn people against the DNC and against Dean personally. That is truly a shame.

They justify it all by saying they are in the minority. That does not justify lies.

They are in the minority here and always will be if they don't start being Democrats instead of being part of the GOP culture.

It is Bill Nelson's state, and that needs to stop.

And they point out the difference between delegates for the convention and the fact that votes still do count in the primary. They could explain the process instead of spinning.

But that is how they are here.

[Cameron27]

13. Ok, I get what you're saying.

It looks like they're trying to make Dean a scapegoat, while ignoring their own complicity in the situation. I have to say that I admire the way Dean's been handling himself, he's come across as a very strong leader of the DNC. I hope some of this can be reconciled for the sake of FL's Democratic voters.

[Orangepeel]

21. they can make the primary nonbinding and hold a caucus later

In the first place, they should have faught the move of the primary instead of encouraging it. But since they didn't, the compromise is to hold a binding vote during the proscribed period.

[madfloridian]

11. To make it clear...if they work out something to have vote after Feb. 5 delegates will count.

"DNC members Jon Ausman and Allan Katz of Tallahassee and Janee Murphy of Tampa said Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state to find a way of picking delegates after Feb. 5 that would still offer maximum participation for the party rank-and-file."

[Cameron27]

14. Thanks for the explanation.

[madfloridian]

15. Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.

But he still blames Dean and the DNC for party infighting. Frankly I have not seen any fighting on Dean's part as chair...just standing firm for the rules. Yet he tells Dean to stop the circular firing squad. No, Dan, you guys need to stop it. Sometimes you have to just back down and tell the whole truth.

This is what he wrote to Dean in a letter August 30. The link is to a Word document with the letter.

Dan Gelber's letter to Howard Dean

Someone emailed me personally to stop the personal firing squad. I did not take offense.

We may have disagreements, but please, let’s retire the circular firing squad.

Much of the back and forth and criticism of Florida by the DNC has been focused on the conduct of the Democratic legislators who – some argue – did not fight against the early primary bill. Yes, there is gambling in Casablanca. Of course we didn't fight against the bill. When the Republican leadership made it clear that this was their priority, Democrats had two choices: support something their constituents support and that was going to become law anyway; or support the DNC Rules Committee enforcement of a primary system that our constituents revile. For me, this decision was easy.

But see, Dan Gelber, at the risk of sounding like part of the "circular firing squad"....you knew the rules. The rules said Democrats controlled by Republicans had to show they fought back.

So may I remind you of the way you "pretended" to fight back while you insulted the chairman of the party in public? And laughed?

What the Rules Committee knew when they voted

1. Florida Democratic Legislators sponsored the bill to move the primary to January 29th;

2. Florida House Democratic Legislators voted in committee three times for the bill to move the primary to January 29;

3. All but one Florida House Democratic Legislator vote on the floor to move the primary to January 29; and,

4. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after receiving a call from DNC Chair asking for help in opposing setting the primary date before February 5, “I don’t represent Howard Dean.”

5. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5th, that the only reason he offer it was “to show that there was an attempt to state within the Democratic Party rules.” The amendment failed on a voice vote with no debate being offered.

6. Florida Senate Democratic Legislators voted in committee to move the primary to January;

7. Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate.

There is a time to stop the accusations and come together. You started it, you go first.

[madfloridian]

40. Gelber admits it , but they just keep on.

.

[Adelante]

16. I don't how know true this is re Michigan

If I understand the situation in Florida, the Republicans were pushing the early date and the Dems got on the bandwagon. In Michigan, at least according to this, the Dems were the bandwagon and the Repukes got on.

Michigan GOP Chairman Saul Anuzis said he hopes the Republican National Committee will see fit to let Michigan hold its Jan. 15 primary without taking away any delegates to the 2008 Republican National Convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul.

‘‘We understand that we’re violating the rules, but it wasn’t by choice,’’ Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats were the ones pushing the Jan. 15 date. ‘‘We’re going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness.’’

The presidential primary bill passed the House 67-34, with a mix of Republicans and Democrats voting for it. The Senate approved the House version 36-0 before sending the bill to Granholm.

http://www.timesrepublican.com/News/articles.asp?articl...


There also seems to be an issue for Democrats over whether to hold a primary or a caucus. I think that is a complication Florida didn't present.

And the Michigan Governor sent this letter to the presidential candidates:

Granholm sent a letter Thursday to Republican and Democratic presidential candidates urging them to ignore attempts by some of the early states to keep them from campaigning in states that move up their elections and break national party rules.

‘‘I strongly urge you not to sign any pledge that would prevent you from campaigning in Michigan,’’ the governor wrote, adding that addressing the manufacturing crisis and unfair trade policies is more important than the politics behind which states get to vote early.

[madfloridian]

17. That's most likely correct.

They are all pushing the envelope. In my mind Granholm as governor and Nelson as senator and Thurman as party chair here are directly confronting the authority of the DNC at a time when there is no nominee.

I do not think that is a wise move.

The question is on whose behalf are they confronting Dean's authority?

Would they have done this to a chair who was appointed by a nominee, like McAuliffe?

It's a power play I think to hold any other authority at bay until the nominee is chosen.

Then the party belongs to the nominee and no one else.

I think that is a terrible idea.

[Adelante]

18. How does the primary v. caucus play in?

Just a simple bargaining chip or does it have other significance?

I agree with you there's a power struggle going on for the DNC and that's what this is really about.

[madfloridian]

19. To be very frank...and leave myself open to attack here.

Florida is Hillary's. I don't know how the caucus would work, but say it would favor lesser candidates. I just don't know.

But I think this move by Florida and Michigan and more to come...is a play to leave the party in the hands of the Clintons. Many feel that. I can't prove it, but it has the earmarks.

I think more than primary change now we need a change in who owns it. I think this business of the nominee controlling everything needs to go.

It makes it too hard to get change. There may be enough in place to counteract this move by Florida and Michigan...but the media is geared mostly for Hillary now. She is the least attacked on the media and espcially Fox. I must say getting Murdoch on her side was a wise move.

This in my mind, IMHO, is a move to save the party control until she is nominee. I think a lot of people are thinking that but won't say it. No media is taking the side of the DNC, none. I have been accused of being too pushy on this issue, but I know my state lied. I will not let up.

Dean is after change and rebuilding the party from the ground up. This is a direct confrontation to him. It is meant that way..time to say it.

There is an interesting statement here made by Dean in Martha's Vineyard. Whether he is right or not remains to be seen. Someone said to me that I probably did not realize the import of those words...but I did. It is not about the process...it is about changing the whole system.

I wish him luck because he has the guts to do it. But there is an entrenched system fighting him all the way.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

"What he provided were the structural reasons for his belief that the Democrats - so recently on the ropes in campaigning terms - will not only win big next year, but will go on winning into the future.

First is the party's use of data. He reckoned his party caught up with their opponents only this year. But he had forced other changes too, he said, since taking over the national committee in 2005, like ensuring coordinated national campaigning. The Democrats, he said, are no longer a party where the nominee runs things and the party does not."

[jmp]

34. In the interest of disclosure ...

Do you work for "Democracy for America"?

Because if you do, you should probably begin every post by identifying yourself as a Dean shill...

[Adelante]

22. MF, did you see this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[madfloridian]

23. Thanks, I will check it out.

I had read Dean's letter to the candidates, but I did not see that the smaller states were fighting back

I did see two articles finally saying that it was good someone was trying to take charge of the madness.

[steelyboo]

24. Jesus, All Politicians are stuck in the "mine, mine!" and "Me first!" stages of childhood

Could the FEC step in and mandate that in all Federal Elections, the party primaries will be held 6 months before the general election, in ALL states? It would eliminate the early primary advantage at least.

[Adelante]

25. Breaking News on Michigan

News: Michigan Dems Are Unanimous

31 Aug 2007 05:25 pm

Breaking news from Michigan: there won't be a Democratic caucus in Michigan. There will be a Democratic Primary on Jan. 15. The Michigan Democratic Party will resubmit its delegate selection plan to the DNC. The DNC will find the plan in non-compliance and strip Michigan of its delegates. The candidates will then have to decide whether to compete there.

But there is, as of 4:30 pm ET today, unanimity among Democrats -- state party chair Mark Brewer has capitulated to the pressure of Gov. Granholm, the UAW and others.

The state party released a statement moments ago:

“The leadership of the Michigan Democratic Party today announced their intention to comply with the new state law establishing a January 15, 2008 presidential primary, and to select their delegates to the Democratic National Convention on that day.”

“Michigan Democrats are taking this step in direct response to the New Hampshire Secretary of State’s statement of intent on August 9th, supported by the Democratic leadership of New Hampshire, to hold the New Hampshire primary before January 19, 2008, in direct violation of the DNC Rules that state that New Hampshire’s delegates cannot be selected at a primary held earlier than January 22, 2008.”

“Michigan Democrats believe that no state should enjoy a privileged position every four years in selecting our party’s presidential nominee. New Hampshire’s stated intent to move their primary before January 19th, in direct violation of the DNC rules, is an effort to perpetuate their self-appointed privileged position. That makes the delegate selection process in other states, including Michigan, less meaningful, and results in the candidates paying less attention to the issues that are important to Michigan and other states.”

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/ne...

[madfloridian]

26. Rather disappointed in Brewer.

I thought he would stand with the DNC.

Another power play. And Democrats doing it this time instead of GOP, and doing it like in your face to the DNC

[Adelante]

28. Ambinder blogged this earlier

Sounds like Brewer was ready to stand firm, but something caused him to back down.

There's a fierce behind-the-scenes battle among Michigan Dems right now about the Jan. 15 primary. State chairman Mark Brewer is prepared to announce that the party will hold its caucus as planned on Feb. 9.

The Michigan Democratic Party has already submitted its delegate selection plan to the Democratic National Committee. Today, Gov. Jennifer Granholm and the state's powerful UAW are trying to force Brewer to agree to submit a plan that reflects the Jan. 15 primary.

I'll write an update when I know more.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/mi...

[MaineDem]

30. He's on the Rules & Bylaws Committee too

I really don't like this.

[madfloridian]

31. In fact I read a statement by him earlier...that MI would stand firm

Something is not smelling good right now. Brewer has always stood with Dean since he became chair,

[madfloridian]

27. Just saw a poll with Hillary way ahead there, Florida also.

They don't care if they lose their delegates. They know Hillary will be the nominee, she will restore their delegates...and the party will be the Clinton's again.

Unless...

[illinoisprogressive]

29. I believe two major things about this push up and I think Dean knows why they are doing this.

one, is that the FLA dems agreed to the whole no one up before Feb. 5th. the reason they are pushing the early stuff is to help Hillary. It seems that many of the fla. dems are poodles of Hillary's. they are trying to leap frog and front load to give the nomination to hillary without a fair fight. Dean knows this and is saying, no fair to the other candidates and the voters countrywide.
two is that this may be a plan due to Hillary seeing she may have some weakness, soft support or whatever and needs the states to hand the nomination to her. Maybe things are not great in Iowa and the rest or she doesn't feel like campaigning anymore and wants an easy ride, whatever.
Something just doesn't smell right and I applaud Dean for being strong and standing firm. also for being savvy enough to see something underneath going on and saying no way.
Plus, I really think this frontloading is very much to the detrement of the voter. The voters get short changed in seeing and talking to candidates and making a wise decision.

[madfloridian]

32. Levin was on the committee that created the rules.

In fact, wasn't he chair of the committee appointed by McAuliffe?

[madfloridian]

33. More on the Michigan dust-up.....

from Marc Ambinder. Dated August 22

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/08/as...

"As mentioned above, the Michigan State Senate just passed a bill setting the primary date at Jan. 15, and after some conference tinkering, it's headed to the desk of the governor, who'll sign it.

Some Democrats are protesting. Rep. Bart Stupak (D-MI) sent a letter to Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Michigan Democratic Party chairman Mark Brewer urging them to keep the party's traditional caucus, which the state party pays for. A state-run primary would cost taxpayers $12M, Stupak writes, and besides, Michigan's county political parties are already preparing for the caucuses.

Privately, Brewer may be sympathetic to Stupak's argument. Party-run caucuses -- or "Firehouse primaries," as they're called, are enormously beneficial to the state party because they serve as a dress rehearsal for election day get-out-the-vote activities and provide an easy way for the party to enhance its voter lists. They're also easy to control -- and party interest groups, like Michigan's extremely powerful United Auto Workers union, tend to exert an outsized influence on the outcome. It comes as no surprise that UAW, a union which is said to be on the verge of endorsing Sen. John Edwards, also opposes a state-run primary. (The State Dems, per published reports, are waiting to see what the bill says before they react. The State Republicans are on board with Granholm and the legislature.)

On the other side of this equation is Gov. Granholm, who Edwards factions in the state believe is acting at the beheast of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The theory is that it would be much easier for Clinton to win a primary beauty contest than a caucus, which would require organization -- read: labor, read: the UAW. (Actually, labor power in Michigan is concentrated in the UAW and in the National Education Association, which probably won't endorse.)"

If Granholm is acting at the behest of Clinton, then they got their way and Brewer gave in. Disappointed.

[Adelante]

35. It looks like Granholm and the UAW are on the same side, though

Today, Gov. Jennifer Granholm and the state's powerful UAW are trying to force Brewer to agree to submit a plan that reflects the Jan. 15 primary.

Doesn't it? It's Brewer v. Granholm/UAW, it seems.

[madfloridian]

36. Did the UAW endorse since the 22?

I am having trouble making heads and tails of this.

[Adelante]

38. It's all confusing me, too

As far as I know, the UAW is expected to endorse Edwards. Also in a few reports I've seen "Edwards backers" are said to be heavily involved, which I took to mean the UAW. I don't know any more than that. I guess things will become clearer over the next few days.

Edit: I just realized something. Isn't Bonoir from Michigan? Maybe it's his people who are being referred to as "Edwards backers," although that could be UAW anyway.

[madfloridian]

37. Committee that set the rules formed by a deal between Levin, MI, and McAuliffe

This is interesting. Governor Dean is having to enforce rules set when a senator from MI who got a deal with McAuliffe that he would not make waves if Terry appointed a committee to change the primaries.

Now Michigan sure is making its move.

From 2005;

"The panel, which carried the unwieldy name of Commission on Presidential Nomination Timing and Scheduling, made two sets of recommendations, one dealing with the opening phase of the nominating calendar and the other with the later phases.

The commission came into existence as part of a bargain between former DNC chairman Terence R. McAuliffe and Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.). Levin has long agitated against what he calls the privileged position of Iowa and New Hampshire, which hold the first caucus and first primary every four years. During the 2004 presidential campaign cycle, McAuliffe bought peace with Levin by promising to appoint a commission after the election if the senator would agree not to try to blow up the calendar for that year.

The commission, chaired by former labor secretary Alexis M. Herman and Rep. David E. Price (D-N.C.), began work early in the year under pressure to add diversity to the early part of the nomination battle -- diversity being a code word for diminishing the significance of Iowa and New Hampshire.

Proponents of a new system argued that the two small, largely white states are not representative enough of the country and the Democratic Party to warrant the influence they have on who becomes the nominee. As supporters see it, states in other regions, with larger African American and Latino populations and economies with more manufacturing and union representation, deserve a louder voice in winnowing the field and influencing the outcome.

The commission's final recommendation was a classic compromise. Seeking to avoid angering Iowa and New Hampshire voters, the panel reaffirmed Iowa's status as the first state to hold a caucus and New Hampshire's as the first to hold a primary. Seeking to mollify the critics of those two states, the commission proposed inserting one or two caucuses between Iowa and New Hampshire in mid-January 2008 and then adding one or two primaries shortly after the Granite State's primary. No other states would be authorized to hold contests before Feb. 5, 2008."

[madfloridian]

39. Rep. Dan Gelber admits to Dean in a letter that they did not "fight" the GOP

At least he is showing some honesty.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

"Much of the back and forth and criticism of Florida by the DNC has been focused on the conduct of the Democratic legislators who – some argue – did not fight against the early primary bill. Yes, there is gambling in Casablanca. Of course we didn't fight against the bill. When the Republican leadership made it clear that this was their priority, Democrats had two choices: support something their constituents support and that was going to become law anyway; or support the DNC Rules Committee enforcement of a primary system that our constituents revile. For me, this decision was easy."

The letter link is in pdf format.

Their pretense at fighting and misrepresenting it to the Rules Committee did not work.

It is time for all of them to stop the war on the DNC and admit it was their fault. The letters to the editors are starting, and it is not a pretty scene here.

It's a shame. Truth will come out, and it will hurt.