Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."

[madfloridian]

Bill Nelson, who never fought for anything we asked him to fight for has finally found a great cause: Thumbing his nose at the DNC.

The Florida Democrats are not telling the whole truth about any of this. They are using words like "disenfranchise" and saying they are taking our votes away....not true.

It is amazing how they are doing it.

I think it will be a lot of fun next year at that convention.

Some more neat comments and virtual temper tantrums:

Party poised to strip delegates

The state party would have 30 days to change its plan before the sanctions would go into effect, but instead Florida's Democratic lawmakers say they will fight back. Sen. Bill Nelson told reporters in a conference call Friday that he'll lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in.

"We are quite concerned that Florida Democrats are going to lose their right to vote," Nelson said. "And of all states, we have the sensitivity of this because of what we have gone through.

Poor Bill and his sensitivity. He never utters a word about the soldiers in Iraq. I once said to him he had blood on his hands...he said it was a just cause.

And Bill doesn't even know what he could charge Dean and the DNC with:

The state's congressional delegation also sent a letter to DNC Chairman Howard Dean threatening a voting rights investigation in response to sanctions. However, national Democratic officials insist there is no legal basis to force the party to seat delegates in violation of its rules, and Nelson could not say what law the DNC would be violating or where the case could be pursued.

That's true. I know because I tried to pin them down yesterday.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz was on the call:

Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz was also on the conference call and said, "We should not be disenfranchising voters based on arcane political party rules and people stamping their foot and insisting on getting their way instead of making sure that we can move forward with an election that has a united party in one of the most important states in the country."

I think the articles should note who these folks are co-chairs for. Debbie is Hillary's co-chair along with Alcee Hastings.

Debbie, who is stamping their feet, my dear?

And a word from a couple of folks at the DNC:

Tina Flournoy and Donna Brazile, who worked on Gore's campaign and served on the Rules and Bylaws Committee, said Florida has the chance to have its votes counted if it follows the rules. The DNC tried to persuade the party to hold a separate contest Feb. 5 or later, perhaps by mail, to determine which candidates would get the delegates.

"Disenfranchisement is not just an abstract term," Flournoy said. "It shouldn't be tossed around for political gain."

Very true, Tina. They are using it for personal gain.

[Mythsaje]

1. Road Trip!

I'm sure that'll be fun.

Like spending several days in the company of the most obnoxious people you know. Or Republicans.

[madfloridian]

Heh heh...marching on Denver to the beat of a drum.

[Debi]

2. Flordia has over 200 delegates - that's 10% of the delegates necessary to be the nominee.

how in the heck can the state ever be'disenfranchised'in the Democratic Primary process?

[madfloridian]

3. Don't ask me, I am now an ex-Floridian. I have officially had it with them.

I may still live here, but I am not part of this party culture here.

I am not the least bit concerned about those delegates.

If they had stayed at February 5 or after, they could have had them all.

[Debi]

8. They still will have all of them - right after the nominee is determined.

Guaranteed - no one running for president is going to piss off Florida at the National Convention.

You are correct, had the parties decided to stay at February 5th they would have been one of the 'must-wins' of Super-duper Tuesday and would have carried quite a bit of weight.

[madfloridian]

10. Powerful Florida....big tough guy.

What can I say.

The rules are different here.

[jmp]

63. "right after the nominee is determined"

Yeah, that will fool Floridians into believing they had a vote.

Kiss Florida's electoral votes goodbye.

[Debi]

106. Electoral votes? What are you talking about?

These are delegates to the national convention being discussed not general election votes. It would take a hell of alot more that Howard Dean and the DNC to remove an electoral vote from a state.

[Hobarticus]

121. DU Law #5: Never let not knowing what you're talking about

get in the way of voicing an opinion.

[jmp]

62. Cya!

Your loyalty to Dean over the voters of this state make this for the best.

[William769]

4. I'll help with the gas Senator Nelson.

Just say the word.

[madfloridian]

5. Marching along with noble Bill Nelson. Left right left right.

You go, Wlliam769

[William769]

6. I damn sure will!

Not only is he right, he has helped our family 4 times in the past 2 years. A Senator that works for me, I'll work for him!

[madfloridian]

7. Good for you.

Stand up for what you believe.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divine Discontent]

11. that is great

my friend liked Jeb because his office DID stuff to help his family, and his family's a "nobody" family politcally, so your point is well taken... if a senator actually gets things done then why wouldn't you back him/her. I like Bill a lot, I just wish he was bolder than he is, he really could set the tone for southern state senators if he chose to.

[Divine Discontent]

9. I like Bill.... I really truly do... he does some good things

BUT... (lol) he sure is upsetting when it comes to, oh, I don't know, living up to that big uppercase "D" after his name rather often! And seems to cow down to the threat of losing his seat to some republican (like Kathy Harris was any threat Bill!) if he dares stand up for progressive views and what's just and fair - and the Iraq disaster is FAR from a just cause. Shame on him if he truly said this to you! How sad... Thanks for the laugh though (Bill Nelson, who never does anything we ask him), HA!

[madfloridian]

12. Bill is a very nice guy. He is leading the charge against the DNC

which belongs to all of the party.

The DNC is not Bill's little play toy. He thinks it is.

That is how he is.

[cobalt1999]

13. As another Floridian, I'm with you Bill

I'm willing to support this. Amazing how some people are more concerned about a party apparatus and protecting favorite state status, than having their vote mean anything.

Go Nelson.

[William769]

14. Thats been my point all along.

[madfloridian]

15. You march with him, you hear? Left right .

.

[madfloridian]

16. Oh, so that is what you think this is.

You sure don't get it, do you?

This is about so much more than that.

My state is making up stuff to keep the power. Think about it.

[Debi]

17. How would your vote NOT have meant something on February 5th?

The only states going on that date with a higher delegate count than Florida are California and New York. Florida would very much been a player in the Super Duper Tuesday primaries (not to mention the fact that the delegate counts of IA/NH/NV/SC COMBINED didn't equal Florida's 210).

Talk about wanting favorite state status - unlike smaller states that can only vet the candidates - it seems Florida wanted to choose the nominee for America.

[William769]

19. One slight correction.

We did not change the date, the Legislature did. We cannot change it back to the original date. So if it is not changed back in essence our votes will not count as it stands now. Parsing is parsing, but those are the facts.

[madfloridian]

20. Let's get this straight. The vote was 100% to move it up.

They went right along with it. No negative votes.

They did not get "played" on this. They went along.

[William769]

21. Does not matter who voted how.

I did not get to vote on it! Come hell or high water, my vote is going to count this time!

[madfloridian]

24. It does matter. Florida dems voted 100% to move the primary

and then want to sic Gonzales on Howard when he broke no rules.

[MaineDem]

25. Karen Thurmond was on tv earlier

She basically said this was thrust upon the Dems by a 3-1 GOP majority and a GOP Governor.

I seem to remember it was a Dem legislator who introduced the bill and, as you said, the Dems did not vote against it. If the Dems had fought this with all their strength then I'd agree with her. But I have my doubts.

We'll see. Ultimately, it's the convention that decides which delegates to seat. I see a powerplay in Denver led by Nelson.

[madfloridian]

26. Karen is spinning.

Bill Nelson, leader against the DNC with Dean as chair.

Bill finally found a passion. Not the war, not the bankruptcy bill....but the DNC.

Yes, I think you perceive it correctly.

This is how Florida Dems are. They have been this way for years to get along with the Republicans.

They are doing propaganda.

[Debi]

52. Unlike the last two elections

Just hope your voting machines are in order.

[catgirl]

56. Yep. They all signed on.

What a bunch of idiots.

[madfloridian]

57. And I read at Kos that all of the FL congressional caucus have signed Nelson's letter

Not just those five anymore.

[Debi]

49. The party controls the delegate selection process - only the state

controls the election. FL Dem party can stay in compliance by voting on Jan, 29th and wait to select delegates at a later date (say county convention time?).

[cobalt1999]

29. This isn't the general election, influence is not by the number of delegates.

Influence is determined by date. Let me ask you Why Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina get to have such influence? Why are other states excluded? Why does the DNC protect the existing order instead of rotating it?

This isn't a new issue this has been brewing for a long time without any resolution by the DNC and no changes foreseen unless a few states stand up to the DNC organization.

[Debi]

50. Each of those states have something in common

They are small. Iowa actually has the greatest amount of delegates at 57. The states are small, have lower population and are inexpensive for the candidates to organize and compete in. There is no way in hell that a Biden, Dodd, Richardson or Kucinich could run in a large size, large population, expensive media market like Florida. What an early large state means is that the candidate who can afford the most T.V. ads and private charter jet flights to do tarmac-to-tarmac rallies is the Democratic nominee. Effectively, Florida - not Iowa or New Hampshire - can be bought.

As for delegates not meaning so much? If a candidate doesn't have the 2100someodd delegates come convention - they won't be the nominee. That does carry some influence, doesn't it?

[cobalt1999]

71. I don't buy that argument, never have.

Frankly, a national primary would test each candidates ability to campaign and win nationally. If a candidate cannot built a support base, organize them, and raise funds to compete nationally, then they probably aren't going to compete anyway.

As for delegates counting, it doesn't matter when the last half are just awarded because the early states have already narrowed the field.

Hey, you are from Iowa, I'm sure you are trying your best to protect the advantage you have in the status quo.

[JAbuchan08]

99. so cut all the "unserious" candidates out and cut them out early

That way we can make sure all our candidates are rich and politically connected, no momentum for you Mr. Populist!

[Debi]

102. I guess there is no reason for us to argue, then. February 5th is basically

a national primary. I'm willing to bet the person with the most money going in to February 5th will be the Democratic nominee. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong.

[AnnieBW]

31. Unlike Iowa, which generally does

Sorry, but those of us in the other states want to get a chance to vote on ALL of the primary candidates - not just the ones that Iowans and New Hampshirites (?) like. We need to have a national Primary day.

[madfloridian]

32. Florida was in early Feb. already. They moved for the sake of power.

There are four smaller states which would candidates other than Hillary a chance, but that will be gone now.

Anyway should be fun.

[cobalt1999]

33. Absolutely.

If a candidate cannot run a nationwide campaign against other democrats, why do we assume they can do so in the general election. I'd love a national primary day and stop the "favored state status" the DNC is trying to protect.

[Debi]

53. Because the LAST thing we want is a lower-tier candidate from a small

state beating out the big money guys for tne nomination. Bill Clinton was a mess!

[cobalt1999]

72. If we'd had a national primary in 2004, Dean probably would have won.

Instead, he didn't play well in the early states, and suffered media frenzy. A one day national primary would have seen Dean selected and probably in the White House.

I'm not buying your Iowa advantage at the expense of the rest of us.

[Debi]

104. With only $40 million in the bank Dean could not have afforded a national primary

(especially the way Joe Trippi threw away his money - watch what Trippi does to Edwards during this cycle). Dean was nothing more than an asterisk in the spring of 2003 and only by campaigning in the small, early, states was he able to build name ID. He slept in supporters homes and was driven around by volunteers - tell me how he would have gotten across the state of Florida in one day (doing two, three, four events) being driven by volunteers.

Dean would have never been known to America had he been forced to run a national campaign in 2003.

[demommom]

129. because:

that candidate would then have the recognition and support of Democrats across the country. The best candidates are not necessarily those with the most money or face recognition because they were married to a former president,are the first black candidate, or ran as vice president with a very popular candidate for president.

[Debi]

51. The only influence Iowa has is over who Iowans caucus for -

blame the MSM and the sheeple who abandon their candidate of choice for anything else.

But it looks like you got your wish. February 5th will be the date of our national primary and the end of any campaign that can't raise $50 million in the first and second quarters.

Welcome to the corporate candidate and fly-over campaigns. There is soon to be the possibility that the candidate will no longer have to leave their homes - just televise chats and broadcast them to the big states FL/CA/NY/TX. But at least us Iowans and those New Hampshireites won't be talking to candidates and asking them one-on-one questions. No more of those pesky coffes and diner visits or the moments wherer the candidates have to actually go into detail about the plans they have. God Forbid.

[cobalt1999]

73. fine, then go last if that's the only influence you have.

I bet you won't advocate that though, will you? Know why? You even know you are wrong.

[Debi]

103. I know that if a large state like Florida with 210 delegates, or California with 441 delegates

goes first it will be more difficult for a candidate that doesn't get a large share of those delegates to catch up in smaller states. However, a candidate that comes away with the majority of delegates from Iowa or New Hampshire can still be toppled by another candidate placing first in Florida.

I also know that a candidate without unlimited wealth or high national name ID could never run in Florida or California other than in one or two cities and at one or two air ports. And I know for certain smaller candidates could not afford to run T.V. ads or hire staff that could organize a large state.

Again, larger states going first - or a national primary - equal the nomination being awarded to the candidate with the most cash. The candidate able to purchase the nomination.

[cobalt1999]

109. So, on one hand you say Iowa doesn't have any influence, then

on the other hand, Iowa has the ability to help candidates without money and name recognition. So which is it?

Sounds like if Iowa has a chance to propel a minor candidate into the white house, that's some pretty serious power. If they don't, then those candidates have to conduct a national campaign anyway.

Never seen you answer the question if you'd like to see Iowa go dead last in the primaries. Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath for an answer I already know.

[Debi]

122. If you already know the answer then there is no reason for me to tell you n/t

[demommom]

130. ..and we all know how that worked out last time,huh?

It's been a great 6 1/2 years and promises to get even better before it is over.

[jmp]

65. Candidates drop out after Iowa & NH ...

Why should those states get to decide who advances and who doesn't?

[Debi]

105. They shouldn't and they don't.

The MSM and the sheeple public who won't support candidates that don't finish in the top three after the early states are the problem - Kucinich stayed through the end campaigning in New Jersey and Montana for the June primaries AND he had supporters vote for him in those states.

Don't blame the people who live in Iowa and New Hampshire for the collapse of campaigns after the early dates - blame the voters who see 1-2-3 on MSNBC and Fox News and refuse to support anyone other than those three.

[jmp]

108. In 2004 Dean, Clark & Edwards were all out of the race before Florida got to vote.

That is simply outrageous!

And there were plenty of other states that were left out of the decision making. It's BS! It's wrong! And we shouldn't have to put up with it!

[Hobarticus]

116. Could Dean, Clark, and Edwards have fared any better?

Honestly, I'm asking. Do you have some polling info or anything that suggests that these candidates could have done better?

[jmp]

117. There's no telling ... but that's the whole point.

We'll never know if any of those candidates could've carried Florida or any of the later states had they not been knocked off in the "early" state primaries. By the time we got to vote, Kerry was already doing his victory lap.

Gephardt was gone right after Iowa.

[Hobarticus]

118. Because IA/NH has historically given legitimacy to campiagns...

It wasn't a victory lap as much as it was legitimacy. And you're assuming that states following IA/NH are just following in lock-step.

Jeez, if a candidate can't get a rise out of us cynical Iowans, they wouldn't make it too far anyway.

What makes you think Gephardt would've made it past Florida?

I guess a single-primary date would be a decent idea....but what candidate can afford to spend money in all fifty states at once? Surely not someone like Gephardt, who never would have made it to Florida if forced to spend money in a nationwide primary. Good candidates without a lot of cash on hand like Gephardt count on small states to give them a push, to get the fundraising dollars that legitimacy gets them. If the small states can't slingshot them...well, that's a pretty fair indicator of how the rest of the campaign's gonna go. It sucks, but there it is.

If we went to a national primary, you'd have two candidates, tops, all flush with cash from who-knows-where. Good luck getting some vibrant and diverse debates out of that.

[cobalt1999]

110. If they shouldn't then let's have a national primary.

Those candidates (if they don't drop out) will have to run a national campaign anyway. That is unless Iowa actually does weed the field. Of course an Iowan is arguing to stay early, by saying it doesn't mean much. Funny how Iowa never volunteers to go last though.

[Hobarticus]

120. How many television stations are in Florida?

How many newspapers?

Billboards?

Betcha a lot more than in Iowa.

How many of the current candidates, with their current level of fundraising, could maintain a legitimate and competitive primary race, in all fifty states at once?

Iowa's a cheap state to campaign in. Florida, not so much.

They have to run a national campaign, true, and they are to a point, they just don't need to focus on all of them at once, or a high-dollar state like Florida. They can do well in Iowa and slingshot out with momentum and hit the fundraising trail hard. And if they don't completely bomb in Iowa, they can still keep moving, if they had decent fundraising to begin with. A megalopolis state like Florida would eat most campaigns in one gulp, right out of the gate. Remember, at the end of the battle for the nomination, lies the Great GOP Money Machine.

It's not a matter of jealously guarding some hidden treasure; there's a lot of legitimate reasons why smaller states go first. Come up with another plan that doesn't sound like whining, and go from there.

[demommom]

131. Debi

Hit that nail squarely on the head!!

[Hobarticus]

115. I'm sorry...who makes them quit?

If a candidate can't stomach a poor finish in Iowa or New Hampshire, which everyone loves to discredit for their size, what does that say for their campaign?

What's the difference if they quit after Florida?

Interesting how little ol' Iowa has no "pull", yet we somehow manage to trip up mighty airtight campaigns.

[Hobarticus]

114. Because they said so!

Apparently being so goddamned huge isn't enough.

[catgirl]

55. But isn't that exactly what he's doing?

Trying to get favorite state status, even if it jeopardizes their votes?
Totally silly.

[madfloridian]

18. If Florida had not moved out of February...they would all their delegates.

They wanted to be first so bad they gave them up, said the Republicans made them do it, and then blamed Dean for it.

I believe in playing fair.

[MissWaverly]

22. Please stop this nonsense

we are standing on the edge of the abyss, please start trying to act like leaders instead of bickering
on me first issues.

[madfloridian]

23. I hope you are not referring to me...but to Florida.

I agree if you are referring to Florida trying to hurt the party just as we are looking hopeful for 08.

[MissWaverly]

45. Yes, I am referring to them, sorry

I am so frustrated, they are taking the wrong end of the problem, the real part is election reform and breaking the hold of
the touchscreens not who goes first.

[Birthmark]

27. Question mad.

Why in the HELL does the DNC care when FL holds its primary?

[madfloridian]

30. To give a voice to candidates who don't have so much money.

There are 4 states now, two more diverse with unions and racially diverse.

If the bigger states take over completely, only big money candidates need apply.

Dean is chairman of those 4 states as well, and he is doing his job. I would not have been so angry if Nelson had not threatened to take him to court. The one to investigate would be Gonzales, his office would do the investigation. That's sad.

[Birthmark]

34. He's making a drastic mistake.

If the DNC screws with FL's delegates, then Democrats can just about count on losing FL in 2008.

Take it to the bank.

[madfloridian]

35. Dean did not make the mistake.

Terry McAuliffe appointed the committee, the states chose the delegates who voted for the rules.

Now they want to break the rules.

Let's just not have a party organization. Let's just all do whatever we want.

And lose.

[Birthmark]

36. Oh, well that changes everything...

...NOT! (Didn't see that comin' did ya? lol)

Well, it's not like FL is all that many Electoral votes anyway. I mean, Democrats have never really FL, anyway.

[madfloridian]

37. It's really not about Dean....it is about the people in the party having a say.

Dean is trying to do that by expanding the party outside of the DC area. It is not a popular concept with power brokers.

This is about power.

[cobalt1999]

38. Seems to all about Dean and the DNC to some people.

If it truly was about expanding the party to encompass all 50 states, why not make it a general primary day and let everyone feel part of the process?

No, it's all about Dean, DNC, and a select favorite state policy and following quietly to some people.

To me, if that means choosing between the DNC leadership with their "favorite state" program or challenging it so everyone get a say, I'm going to side with everyone getting a meaningful vote.

It's about time.

[madfloridian]

41. It's not about Dean. It's about threats and power.

It is about Florida not being honest in what it is doing.

So you do what you have to do.

[cobalt1999]

42. Sometimes it takes threats to make changes.

I've already let Nelson's office know they have my full support.

[madfloridian]

44. Do you support Nelson's threat to sue Howard Dean and the DNC?

Even though they don't know on what grounds? Do you think it was a wise move?

Do you think that was fair?

[cobalt1999]

46. Yes, and that's what I told them.

Yes, it is a wise move when an organization doesn't respond to it's members.

Fair? Is it fair to support and perpetuate a "favorite state" strategy?

You're focused on Dean again, your signature is about Dean, you are all about Dean. I got it. Enough.

Some of us are focused on our state and our votes over an organization and it's leader.

Have a good night. I've got to get up early and go surfing.

[madfloridian]

47. Did you see what Bill Nelson told a peace group about Gonzales?

Here are his words:

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/25975

"Senator Nelson said as the door shut, "I wouldn't trust the Attorney General", (looking over his shoulder, asking if the media was gone) "anymore than I would trust a rattlesnake."

OH, but hey...he trusts him to investigate and perhaps charge the DNC and Dean with violations.

[JAbuchan08]

100. Seems to me that you are the one focused on Dean,

have fun surfing, don't clear your brain too much.

[Mojorabbit]

54. I canceled you out LOL

I called and told his office how upset I was at the Fl Dem party's actions and that I hoped an agreement could be reached. I also said that the last thing we need for THIS election was this mess.

[cobalt1999]

75. That's okay, because, unlike the primaries, your vote doens't count less because it was later.

[Birthmark]

39. I don't see how...

...delivering FL to the Republicans is going to get Democrats power. I'm not going to get worked up about it, though. It's as simple as this: If we're stripped of a single delegate, my wife and I won't vote...period. And we'll encourage others to do the same.

Little folks can play hardball, too. And if enough of them do...

Somebody up DC way is fixing to make a drastic mistake. Who precisely it is is of little interest to me.

[demommom]

133. PUBLIC FINANCING!!

[jmp]

134. "If we're stripped of a single delegate ..."

Exactly. The DNC banished Florida from the union.

50 state strategy

49 state strategy

[Telly Savalas]

127. Missouri is a better representative of the nation as a whole.

Missouri's primary should be a month before the others. If the other 49 states don't bow to Missouri's every whim, Missourians should vote Republican in 2008.

[loudsue]

28. That would be really funny if all of Hillary's state's were barred from

the convention!

[jmp]

64. About as funny as when the DNC is barred from those states.

Some of you seem unaware that the "DNC" is not actually part of the Constitutional process except as provided for in state laws.

[MaineDem]

66. How would the DNC be barred?

Just curious.

[jmp]

67. Tampering with the electoral process is a criminal offense.

Criminal enterprises tend to be frowned upon.

[MaineDem]

68. But how does one bar the DNC?

How is the committee not allowed into a state? Can you be more specific?

Besides all this, the Parties have the responsibility to determine how the delegates to their conventions are elected. For example, the GOP convention doesn't truly represent women and minorities. That's up to them to decide. The Democratic convention does.

Do you understand what the DNC is and how it's comprised?

I think we'll find that this is not a criminal activity. I can't imagine how it would be. Florida knew the rules. Its members on the DNC voted for it. Karen THurman has made her presentation to the Rules and Bylaws Committee today. I would be very surprised if the committee voted to accept their Plan. But time will tell.

[jmp]

69. "How is the committee not allowed into a state?"

The same way the mob is not allowed.

"Besides all this, the Parties have the responsibility to determine how the delegates to their conventions are elected."

According to the US Constitution, States determine their electors as they see fit.

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress:

Not a word about the DNC last time I checked.

The primary is part of that Constitutional process.

[MaineDem]

70. The Electors vote for the candidates who were selected by the Parties

Te candidates are chosen at the conventions.

This has nothing to do with Electors.

I'm sorry but it seems you don't understand the process.

[jmp]

76. "The candidates are chosen at the conventions."

You don't seem to understand that political parties have no power or authority ... and only get to place a candidate on the ballot if a state chooses to allow them to play a role in the process. The DNC can nominate Pauly Shore if it feels like it ... the State of Florida (or any other state) can choose to ignore that choice.

The state could also award a spot on the ballot to whoever wins the Florida Democratic primary in place of the DNC nominee ... or to no Democrat at all.

"The process" as you keep referring to it is an artificial construct that is only relevant as long as the individual states recognize and legitimize it.

[MaineDem]

78. Ok, you win. I quit.

I still am curious as to how the DNC would be banned but I'll live without that knowledge.

[madfloridian]

80. Good fight.

I gave up.

[demommom]

132. REALLY??

Florida got away with it in 2000.Made mess in 2004 and here we go again!

[Dj13Francis]

40. They were warned about this!

The state legislature was warned that they would do this if the legislature moved the primary up, but they did it anyway. A completely counterproductive move on their part, assuming that what they wanted was for Florida to be more influential in the eventual decision on a nominee. This whole thing just sucks. I didn't think the legislature should have moved the date, but they did. We are going to be stuck with the consequences. I'll have to admit it's kind of nice to see old Bill get fired up about SOMETHING... That guy might as well be a corpse, as much help as he's been to progressive Democrats. I really hate that one of my senators is one of the worst of the enablers, and the other is Mel Martinez! They call this state the redneck riviera. I guess decent representation in the Senate is probably too much to hope for. At least we've got Clint Curtis! (hopefully in 2008...)

[madfloridian]

43. You make some good points.

It is a tragic situation for all, but should make for an interesting convention, I guess.

Yes, they were warned, and they now pretend they did not know.

Dean's tough spot

You are right that it is good to see Bill all fired up. He really has a passionate attitude about this.

In the end if he does this, it will be up to the AGs office to investigate the DNC. That is one of the saddest things that could happen.

I wonder if they thought this through.

I would laugh, but the laugh turns into sobs now.

[madfloridian]

48. Nelson compared Gonzales to a rattlesnake....but he trusts that office now??

He trusts that man and that office to investigate his own party?

"Senator Nelson said as the door shut, "I wouldn't trust the Attorney General", (looking over his shoulder, asking if the media was gone) "anymore than I would trust a rattlesnake."

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/25975

Guess that is what you call a double standard, eh, Bill?

You trust him just fine when you want your own party investigated?

[madfloridian]

58. All of the Florida delegation have now signed the letter to punish Dean and DNC

"The entire Florida Democratic Congressional delegation has signed on to the letter sent to the DNC."

That is from the ugly thread at Kos last night.

They can financially break the DNC this way, and they will do it in a heartbeat.

I have never seen little Billy Nelson so excited and animated as he is over the fact that he gets to sue Howard Dean and the DNC.

I have never been so angry with my state party.

This is an ugly power play.

[madfloridian]

59. Interesting..looks like Dean won't be at the Rules committee meeting

but instead will be in Nevada with a meeting of the minorities in the party.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&S...

" Saturday, August 25th, 2007
All events in the Champagne Ballroom, Paris Casino Level, unless
otherwise indicated.
9:00 AM
Welcome and Acknowledgements
Bel Leong-Hong, DNC APIA Caucus Chair
Virgie M. Rollins, DNC Black Caucus Chair

Keynote Address
Introduction: Andrew Tobias, DNC Treasurer
Governor Howard Dean, M.D., DNC Chairman

1:00 PM
Luncheon
Grand Ballroom, Bally's North Tower, Casino Level
Paid for and authorized by the Democratic National Committee,
http://www.democrats.org .
This communication is not authorized by any candidate or candidate's
committee."

Just an observation.

[tritsofme]

60. The eventual nominee will welcome all FL delegates to the Convention

This is all about making a big deal of nothing.

[L0oniX]

61. Bill Nelson never fights for anything we asked him to fight for ...so true!

[MasonJar]

74. Why doesn't Florida just follow the rules? Let's see, Florida DUers,

isn't this the state that allowed a GOPer in Miami Dade to suddenly become a dem and design the ballot which caused so many wrong votes to be cast? The dems there need to get a clue!!!!!! Our Dems in the state of Kentucky have run around clueless also since around 1998, but we seemingly have ourselves on the way to reclamation (I hope I have not spoken too soon.)

[jmp]

77. Why do the rules favor some states over others?

Why should we consent to a seat in the back of the bus?

[cobalt1999]

79. maybe because the DNC and it's leader never listen.

Blame us Florida Dems, but I blame an organization and it's leaders who won't listen to complaints about their process, refuse to substantially change it, and imposes rules that stop people from trying.

Frankly, if they'd listen the people wouldn't have to challenge them. I'm for the democrats in my state more than the DNC organization and it's rules protecting the status quo.

[madfloridian]

119. Well, Harold Ford is next in line. Maybe he will listen.

How about that?

[madfloridian]

81. Big Bill, put your lawsuit where your mouth is.

Let the world see Florida spend all that money to break the back of the DNC and Dean by having Gonzales investigate. You'd win because you are richer and have all kinds of religious communities behind you, lots of lobbyists like Karen, as well.

Yeh, you'd win that suit probably because money usually does. But it will be a pyrrhic victory.

Go for it, Billy.

[jmp]

82. Next thing you know women will want the vote. (nm)

[cobalt1999]

83. We can't have women voting!

We need an organization that values "traditional voting patterns", and we need to setup up some "rules" to punish anyone that asks to actually has the audacity to try and have a voice, we'll also call them "rule breakers" and claim to be the victim.

It's amazing to me how some people are so willing to follow orders even when it limits their vote/voice.

[madfloridian]

84. Anarchy is always best.

[janx]

85. QUESTIONS:

1. How did this situation first arise?

2. Did any republicans have anything to do with it in any way?

[madfloridian]

87. Florida Dems and Republicans did it together. 100% vote.

Florida Dems wanted people to think it was not their fault, but they went right along.

The Republicans will lose delegates also.

It is a power play by Dems who often confuse their identity...can't figure which symbol applies...donkey or elephant.

[janx]

88. The reason I ask:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith /

Right-wingers seem to be enjoying this very much; I therefore wondered if any of them had a hand in it.

[madfloridian]

91. Dems were in on it, too.

The threat by Nelson to sue the DNC is not in the interest of party unity.

The right wingers on the Politico are not very bright.

They may not know that Martinez will sanction as well.

[Colobo]

86. If this somehow benefits Obama, I'm fine with it.

[Divine Discontent]

92. but by saying "if this somehow"

it implies you have no idea how this effects anything, so we should be more concerned with how it effects the VOTERS, not the candidates.

[Colobo]

93. I really have no idea of how all this will play out.

[Divine Discontent]

94. lol.. .you're fast n/t

[Colobo]

95. It's Saturday afternoon. I got nothing else to do. :)

[Divine Discontent]

96. same here... gotta cook soon though... n/t

[Colobo]

97. Great! Am I invited to dinner? :)

[Divine Discontent]

107. I actually had fam come over and it got delayed

but it's on the table right now, unlike Nancy and impeachment - and where are you, you're plate is gettin cold!



IMPEACH NOW!

[lpbk2713]

90. Thanks for the info.

[janx]

98. "I will lead the delegates to Denver..."

[madfloridian]

113. I just saw your picture.

Love it.

[madfloridian]

101. Florida Democrats DID go along happily...page from the party website.

It really is a sad thing to see how propaganda works. I had saved this page to my computer when I got the email about it. It worried me when I saw they were saying they did not go along.

One has to simply read this page to see the truth.

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_democrats_to_g...

"TALLAHASSEE - Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman and U.S. Senator Bill Nelson (D-Orlando) today announced that the Florida Democratic leadership voted unanimously to accept January 29 as the date for the binding 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary in Florida.

This week the Florida Democratic Party will submit a working version of its selection plan for its 241 delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention. After a 30-day public comment period, a final version will be approved by the State Executive Committee and resubmitted to the DNC later this summer.

"Florida Democrats have spoken, and we have listened," Thurman said. "When it came down to it, Florida's Democratic leadership decided that, among other factors, the potential for disenfranchisement with any other option besides the January 29th state-run primary was just too great. Florida Democrats cannot and will not disenfranchise voters."

"The principle is that Florida has been in a situation in the past where votes have been taken away from the people. We saw that in the 2000 election. We saw that again in the 2006 election in Sarasota, and so, in the protection of the people's right to vote, the Democratic Party does not want to be in a position where the perception is that it's taking away the people's right to vote and express themselves freely in a free and fair election," Nelson said."

"An additional factor in the leadership's decision was the concern that any date but January 29th would take our eyes off the prize and adversely affect the progress we've made toward winning the state for the Democratic nominee in 2008," Thurman added.

"The ultimate goal is to be able to win Florida in the November 2008 presidential election," Nelson said. "

[illinoisprogressive]

111. Isn't Debbie Hillary's poodle? I think there is something more to this underneath.

[madfloridian]

112. Since all of the congress people from Florida signed the letter finally...

can't go that route. Many of still think that is to be considered.

Debbie and Alcee are co-chairs of her campaign.

But since I was informed via phone that all of them signed it, even those who haven't endorsed anyone that it does not count.

[janx]

124. This one really baffles me.

Normally, Debbie's very sharp--nobody's poodle.

[madfloridian]

126. When you co-chair a campaign and get orders from Nelson...

you tend to change or either let true colors out.

Nelson controls Florida.

Their propaganda has worked. I saw local shows reading emails. Florida has turned against Dean because no one is giving his side but me and a few of my friends.

[CTLawGuy]

123. Florida is being stupid

No one is losing their right to vote.

I cannot simply decide I'm going to vote for the general election on October 27th and then whine when my "vote" is not counted. If anyone is "taking away Florida's voting rights," it's the people who moved the date to a date that violates party rules.

Also, there is no right to vote in the primary process. It wasn't until the 60s when primary elections even started. Howard Dean could choose the candidate himself if he wanted. So it is completely within the right of the DNC to refuse any delegates.

The result of all this nonsense of states moving primaries up is a national primary held extremely early.

For 2012, the DNC should assign each state a date and say, "no vote on this date, no delegates allowed."

[MaineDem]

125. Thank you

Someone else who gets it.

[demommom]

128. Not surprising,the Hillary camp also supported NY in their move.