A DRAFT: Straight Up, Yes or No?

[Totally Committed]

Poll question: A DRAFT: Straight Up, Yes or No?

Where does DU stand on this?

TC

[terrya]

1. No

[Totally Committed]

2. Yes? --- Really???

You Draft mongers are freaking me out!


TC

[The Backlash Cometh]

178. Typical Democrats. They're assuming the Republicans are going to win, again.

They don't realize they actually have the option to resist and use their majority to turn the tide. And they wonder why the Democratic Congress is so spineless.

[Totally Committed]

211. I agree, essentially.

My feelings against the draft are not based on who will win or lose the next election, though. (I have to say, I applaud your lack of pessimism at this point...)

But, most of the Democrats in the Congress and the Senate ARE spineless wimps, who need a lesson in courage. And, who better than WE, THE PEOPLE to say to them -- NO DRAFT FOR YOUR WARS! NO MORE KIDS TO FEED THE GREED FOR OIL.

When we finally stand up, maybe they will, too. If they don't we UNelect their sorry asses until every last one of them is gone.... but, I digress.

NO DRAFT!


TC

[The Backlash Cometh]

216. Take a lesson from the 60s. It was a youth revolution.

It wouldn't be any different today. Think about it. Your generation is a huge consumer market. They'll listen to you if you begin to vote with your money.

Just, also don't make the same mistake they made in the 60s. Don't make it all about sex and drugs.

[AndyTiedye]

270. The Repigs Certainly WILL Win if Democrats Pass a Draft!

Typical Democrats. They're assuming the Republicans are going to win, again.

Voting for the draft would be a really good way of ensuring that the Repigs DO win, again!

[Wilber_Stool]

3. Yes.

Everybody's name into the hat. No exceptions.

[Totally Committed]

7. The entitled and the rich will ALWAYS find a way around a draft.

ALWAYS.

Meanwhile, more of our kids die to prove a point?

NO FUCKING WAY!

What about those morally opposed to killing and War, in general? Would you allow for concientious objectors?


TC

[MannyGoldstein]

Even If It's True - It'll Finally Get People To Go To The Streets

We have the power to take back government - if we just get off our fat, lazy asses and do it.

[Totally Committed]

60. Manny... if they aren't listening to us now, our being in the streets

while our children die will not make a difference.

This government -- BOTH PARTIES -- are INDIFFERENT to us now. They owe too many Special Interests for them to take a firm stand for ending war. ANY war.

I do not want my grandchildren to die, and I don't want them to know the feeling of having taken another life, either.

War needs to stop, yes! -- But, not on the backs of our children and grandchildren. We need to find another way to get through to our elected leaders.

TC

[uppityperson]

130. Exactly. Thank you. They don't care what the people want or think.

They really don't. Why sacrifice more of our youth when they won't care?

[AndyTiedye]

271. And Why Would They Want to Put DEMS Back in Power - IF DEMS DRAFT THEM?!?

Even If It's True - It'll Finally Get People To Go To The Streets

We have the power to take back government - if we just get off our fat, lazy asses and do it.

If the Democratic Congress votes for the draft, why would people take to the streets to put Democrats in power?

Don't you think some of their anger might be directed at those who voted for the draft?

[superkia]

181. That is so true and is why it shouldnt ever be used.

Its biased like many things against the poor and unfortunate, like how they are offering up to $20,000 to join now, hoping that some unfortunate kids will figure they have no other alternative. Its like saying, I will give you $20,000 right now if you take part in this lottery where you most likely will eventually lose your life in a war that will never end. Coming soon to a country near you, WAR!

[NaturalHigh]

14. You won't get my kids.

I don't care what your motives are. If you think we need more participation in this war, go enlist. I'm sure there's a recruiting station near you.

[BellaB]

166. Just one question for you,

You say they wont get your kids, but what if your kids CHOOSE to serve their country?
Do you not believe in letting your kids make their own choices as they grow older and experience life?
Are you going to micromanage their whole lives?

Oh and before you say anything, I served 7 years in the Marine Corps from 85-92 and if they would take me back, I would go in a heartbeat. Also, if one of my kids came to me and said they wanted to sign up for the military I would stand behind their choice.

I am against the draft for the simple reason I do not want anybody serving next to me that did not volunteer. I dont think I could fully trust them to be there when needed.

[Totally Committed]

167. I was and always have been vehemently anti-war, yet both my sons

chose to serve in the National Guard. (see my reply at #65) I tried to talk them out of it (I won't lie), but in the end I had to trust that they were men who had finished college, and were responsible adults. They had earned the right to make their own decisions, whether I agreed with them or not. Both of them did their National Guard duty while attending grad school.

I agree I had to let them go, and do what they felt was right, but I never agreed with their decision. I am grateful they both missed periods of war.

TC

[BellaB]

207. I am glad

that you let your sons make their own decisions. As parents, and I am a parent of 3, we may not always agree with the decisions they make, but as long as they are not committing a crime, we should support their decision.

I served during the Gulf War and luckly I was not called up for combat. I was in the next wave to go tho if needed, I had my gear packed and sitting by the door since I was on 12 hour standby.

[BellaB]

209. One more thing,

believe it or not, most of the individuals in the military are NOT pro war. They just realize that there are times when war is needed, and there has to be people willing to fight. When I was in, we had a saying, "Prepare for war, but, Pray for peace". All that means is we all hoped we would never have to use our skills to take a life, but, somebody had to be prepared to do just that.

[welshTerrier2]

169. "CHOOSE to serve their country"

Hi BellaB. Welcome to DU!!

You'll find a whole lotta support here on DU for people who chose to serve their country. I think many in the media and in the republican party would be surprised to learn this.

But I did want to give you my personal opinion of how this country uses its military. My view is that much of what is sold to the public as "serving the country" is, in reality, serving the bottom line of massive, multi-national companies in the oil industry and in the defense industry. I don't at all say that is the noble intent of most who choose to serve. But, sadly, I do believe that is the reality.

I would refer you to a couple of interesting books on the subject of US imperialism if you haven't read them. One is called The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson. Johnson, a former CIA agent, is a self-described cold warrior. The other book is called Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins. Perkins describes his experience working closely with the US government in private industry to help relieve third world nations of their assets. What he was involved in, by almost anyone's definition, was some pretty ugly business.

For all those who are serving in Iraq, most presumably believing they are serving some noble cause of protecting the country or perhaps bringing democracy and a better life to the Iraqis, note that hidden in the shadows with support from republicans and Democrats alike, is something called the Iraqi Oil Law. On the surface, the law is advertised as leaning on the Iraqi factions to reach an accord as to how they will divide up the oil. That sounds pretty reasonable, doesn't it? The truth is, and there is extensive documentation on this, the core of the law is to "privatize" (read steal) Iraqi oil. Some estimate say that the agreements bush is pushing on the Iraqi government will steal as much as 87% of Iraqi oil revenues for the next 30 years. The truth of the US role in Iraq is that we are obviously not there to "help the Iraqis"; we're there to help Big Oil help themselves to Iraqi oil.

Again, our troops may choose to be there for the most noble purposes; sadly, it is not to be.

As for your point about letting young people make their own choices, I would say that each family is different. I think that's something to be worked out between parents and their kids.

[Totally Committed]

171. That's an important distinction... I am not against people CHOOSING to enter the military...

I am against people NOT HAVING THE CHOICE whether or not to serve.

I am against a draft for that reason. Possibly killing and waging war are not in everyone's values. People should have a choice if, when, and HOW they serve this country.

TC

[welshTerrier2]

173. i'm not against people having the choice to CHOOSE the military

given how they are currently used by this government, I do, however disagree with their choice to join the military. they should have every right to make their own choices; in this case at this time, however, I don't agree with those who choose to serve. I believe, regardless of their possibly noble intent, what they are doing in actuality is signing up to further the interests of Big Oil and the MIC.

[BellaB]

208. You can instill your views

and your morals, you can teach your kids the way you see things, but, at some point as parents we must allow our kids to make their own choices, let them fall and then pick themselves up. If we dont, they will never learn how to live, how to survive, only how to be dependent on somebody else their whole lives.

As far as the situation behind this war, the underlying causes, effects, and personal opinions of why we are there, most of the people who are in todays military signed up AFTER 9/11 and a good percentage has signed up since we went to Afghanistan and Iraq so they knew going in what they were looking at.

[sojourner]

199. Glad for you and yours......but me and mine don't plan on "serving" this particular regime and their

cooked up wars.

[NaturalHigh]

213. If my kids choose to serve in the military...

I will support them. Of course, I would give them my reasons for discouraging them to join. I served for six years in the Air Force, but it's a different world now.

[Sadie4629]

20. Everyone's?

The elderly?

The severely disabled?

Children?

[sarge43]

23. Single parents?

Right now the military makes first term enlistees, for the duration of the enlistment, turn their children to what amounts to foster care.

No medical deferments? We know how well that works.

[LBJDemocrat]

4. Yes, easily

[Totally Committed]

33. Will you be volunteering anytime soon?

Do you have kids or grandkids that would be drafted?

Given your choice of avatar, why is this so "easy" for you? Isn't it one of the commandments? -- THOU SHALT NOT KILL?



TC

[LBJDemocrat]

89. I'm of draft age

I support the draft because it would ensure that Americans only politically support wars that in which we'd be willing to fight or send our kids to fight.

The commandment refers to murder. War and capital punishment are not condemned in the Bible, though the New Testament suggests that they should be avoided.

[uppityperson]

131. I don't understand this.

By drafting our youth, by forcing them into the military involuntarily, this shows that Americans support the war? Seems that showing support would mean there were enough voluntary recruits.

[LeFleur1]

196. Insure Support for GOOD Wars

See, that's where you are wrong. A draft insures nothing except that middle class and poor will be drafted to fight wars to make the rich richer. Rich kids won't go.
If you are draft age now, you don't remember the draft.
You should be shouting, "HELL NO WE WON"T GO."

What's different now is that Canada is not accepting those US citizens who refuse to be drafted into the military. There will be no refuge.

Until the world can be assured that there will be no crazy, warmonger, cowardly presidents who try to prove how brave they are by starting wars where they never have to go to battle , a draft is a bad idea.

[fed-up]

36. do you have family friends a draft would affect?? HELL NO MINE WON"T GO nt

[liberal N proud]

5. If Romney's kids and bu$h's kids don't fight, my kids don't fight

And you know if there is a draft, they will not have to go.

[sarge43]

11. Second that.

Does anyone honestly believe a draft cobbled together by Bush et al will have a speaking acquaintance with fair or equable?

[Totally Committed]

28. Third that!

Romney got his deferment becaust the Mormon Church got it for him on religious grounds, btw.

The Republican chickenhawks will ALWAYS find a way to keep their kids out. ALWAYS.

TC

[bananas]

6. Neither yes nor no.

Bugout is the answer.

[laruemtt]

8. this is a tough one.

i'd say yes because i think it's probably the only way to activate people to end this war. but then again, if it means somebody being forced to go and kill and be killed who was completely against the war but couldn't get out of it, i'm definitely not for that. how about the old adage: 'what if they gave a war and nobody came?' i guess i just don't understand all these people freely signing up for this fiasco.

[ldf]

95. i don't think as many are "freely signing up"

as they would like us to believe.

they are having an extremely hard time reaching their quotas. so hard that they have huge signing bonuses, and have injected the eligibility requirements list with a huge dose valium.

the list is so relaxed that now almost ANYONE can get in.

it used to be that we just had our poor fight our wars. then we included those who want to become citizens, so now we have the poor AND foreigners fighting our wars.

now there are waivers for just about everything. you been in trouble and want a way to stay out of jail?

join the military.

you in a gang and got your ass in a bind trying to be cool to your peeps?

join the military.

the poor weren't enough.

foreigners weren't enough.

now we have gangs in our military, flashing their signs and wearing their colors.

so, we have the poor with no financial hope for the future, foreigners who are so desperate to become americans they will put their lives on the line for citizenship, and criminals fighting our wars. (and we won't even bring up the mercinaries...)

all so we can carry out little boy pissypant's wildest masturbatory fantasies.

yes, i believe the draft will be the only thing that will rouse the american public to actually do something.

as soon as a draft is announced, there will be a huge number of middle class parents saying HELL NO YOU AREN'T FIGHTING YOUR HYPED UP WARS OF LIES, WITH OUR KIDS.

at some point the straw will break the camel's back. maybe that will be it.

if they try to force a draft, the backlash will start the revolution.

so, unfortunately, i have to vote bring back the draft.

[ldf]

96. i posted, then voted

it didn't count my vote, so add one more vote to the "bring back the draft" vote.

[NaturalHigh]

9. No way the military is getting either of my kids.

I don't care if it's a plan by a war-mongering neocon or some half-assed scheme by a liberal, it's not getting my kids. Anyone who thinks we should have a draft needs to pull head out of ass.

[mojavekid]

261. ....

[Maq]

10. Both republican Genders

[Totally Committed]

45. It won't just be Republicans!

besides, Republicans know how to get around even the strictest regulations regarding the draft -- ANY draft.

TC

[Maq]

189. re: Totally Committed and my #10 reply

Voted YES early this morning, 10th reply.
Retired USAF Dec 1981
Spent the evening reading all 129 replies. These are some thoughts related to the subject.


While war complacent americans sit back and watch the Iraq war from afar. Their tax dollars and the wealth of their grandchildren and the grandchildrens children buy a war staffed with foreign mercenaries. Hundreds from Nairobi in Africa, remember them little kids with rifles as tall as they were. They are older now and of age for Americans to fight in a war. More numbers from Latin America who are glad to get a steady paycheque. They don't even have to cross the border fence to get the Iraqi job. Thousands of additional Central Americans are already in the pipeline serving their time in Uniform to jumpstart their citizenship in the USA.

War fatigue is setting in hard for the all volunteer Armed Forces of the USA. Recruiting numbers are hard pressed to match the casualties such as the Killed in Action and the thousands of wounded and the early bailouts as exemplified by the newly minted Military Service Academy graduates. Even at this stage of the war, a quarter of a million bodyunits are stationed in the desert. A quarter of a million foreign invaders, global crusaders, civilian mercenaries, reluctant soldiers.

How can a US Republican get more american blood. Bingo, why don't they engineer a housing crisis. Break the housing bubble and see them Americans get foreclosed, see the Bankruptcies greatly increase. This housing crisis will nudge the stock market down so them little investers will lose a disproportionate amount of their retirement monies. Then everyone will need money quick and their childremn can answer the call to join the Army for a big $$$ bonus. Quicker and surer than a lottery.

Some are crying for a military draft but is this economically viable. A war torn up soldier is costly. First you have to pay them, then you likely will have to fix them medically and of course a lot of them will be on early pension for their long lifetime. Not to mention their education costs and other veterans benefits such as housing. There is no profit in an american soldier, only a negative cost. Lots of profit in the war machine though, and profit in its replacement.

Outsource; The use of private contractors in conflict zones like Iraq and Afghanistan has hit unprecedented levels. A civilian force of more than 120,000 people is in Iraq. You lose the bet if you think many of these are Americans. Cheaper to hire someone from foreign soil to do your dirty work. Get a Kenyan from the outskirts of Nairobi or a poor schmuck from Lima, Peru. Pay these people less than minimum wage and no benefits. Minimum medical and throw them a crutch when they muster out. Heck, if you can keep a lid on their media, shangai them and don't pay them at all. Just like the Indonesians at the American Embassy in Baghdad.

Some additional sources; http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11350940&ft=1&f=3

http://www.mctdirect.com/international/worldnews.htm?page=13
TITLE: Latin American hired guns shrug off Iraq war risks for payday

[Totally Committed]

212. I have to say I agree the tanking economy and Housing Market is being engineered

but I never thought it was to push people into the military. That is truly evil, and so I wouldn't doubt it for a second. I've always thought that poor inner-city kids and/or kids of color were undereducated on purpose to guarantee they'd be good for nothing else than to be cannon-fodder. How else could you explain kids reading at a second-grade level and unable to do basic math being promoted every year and then graduated without the same skills as kids promoted and graduated in the affluent suburbs?

It's a sick policy, but it's worked for them. Now this.

We need to end war, not increase the numbers of soldiers to fight them, imo

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. I appreciate it!

TC

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Where is the FUCK NO option?

The 10 (currently) who voted YES should get themselves to the local recruiting office toute d'suite.

[Totally Committed]

16. I said straight up or down....

I didn't want a "push" poll.

I can't believe there's even one yes, regardless of the options!

TC

[Warren Stupidity]

22. I understand. Just spewing my coffee over the keyboard.

I have three draft age sons. I will go ballistic. Sorry.

[Totally Committed]

24. I have draft-age grandchildren.

We'll go ballistic together!

TC

[NaturalHigh]

18. As I pointed out to another poster...

I'm sure they can find a recruiting station nearby.

[sampsonblk]

242. Already did my time, thank you

[NaturalHigh]

251. Same here, and I voted NO.

[cureautismnow]

13. No, unless...

Only College Chickenhawk Republicans and RW talk radio nut-jobs are eligible.

[iamjoy]

15. YES, YES, YES

A draft! Bring back the draft.

Sure most Americans want us out of Iraq, but they still look at the people active in the peace movement and think they're all weirdos. A lot of middle class people in their late teens and early twenties don't even care enough to vote.

Bring back the draft and we'll have some REAL peace demonstrations. People will be angry, outraged and willing to take action.

Hell yes let's have a draft, it will get people up off of their asses and doing something.

added on edit:
I would allow for conscientious objectors.

[Totally Committed]

21. If this isn't a joke, I sincerely hope you enlist at the nearest recruitment center soon.

Just saying.

TC

[iamjoy]

40. It's Not A Joke

but I have no intention of enlisting. I'd pass out in the heat after five minutes (I live in Florida and stay indoors in summer).

I think a draft is the only thing that is going to get enough people outraged enough to take action to actually end the war. So, it's not that I really think the forcing people into the military and sending them to kill and die is a good idea. It's awfully close to slavery, if you ask me. It's more that the very idea of a draft will raise the level of outrage in this country.

See, right now the Republicans have the "Soccer Moms" so scared of terrorists, that they are unwilling to actively oppose the war. Or maybe they're too busy with their nice middle class life to think much about the war. Suicide bomber in Baghdad killed one hundred, including five US troops. How sad. Okay, have to go get my hair done, then go pick the kids up from (whatever), then go grocery shopping. Hmmm...what should we do for dinner tonight?

Have a draft and those Soccer Moms (and Dads) will take a little more notice when they think their precious Jessica or Jason might have to go. Maybe enough notice to skip the hair appointment and go to a peace march.

[Totally Committed]

47. Only the poor will have no way out.

Jessica or Jason's mommy and daddy know all the right people. They'll never see a minute of service.

TC

[iamjoy]

71. I Don't Think They Do

I don't think the middle class parents do know the right people to get out of it. The very wealthy may, but the teachers, the nurses, the average software developer, etc. They do not. Most of my friends are middle class. They live in nice houses - the houses' values match or exceed the area median home value but are by no means mansions. None of them know anyone who could get a kid (if they had one of draft age) out of going.

They would all come to me (the house my husband and I have is valued just at or below median) for help. Since I'm involved in the local party and have done some volunteer canvassing for political campaigns (some canvassing), they may think I could get some strings pulled. But I don't think I could.

[MH1]

90. Or, in other words

the majority of voters would have to face the unpleasant consequences of their politics (or their inability to convert others to rational politics).

I'm fully in favor of a 100% national service requirement, with options besides military but the ability to require military service if not enough people volunteered. (For the record, I put in 8 years voluntarily already. Next.)

[AndyTiedye]

265. 70% Want Us Out Already. Whose Politics Are We Talking About?

The 25% who think it's the next Crusade don't care what we think.
They're Fundie nutbars, and they'd be delighted to have their kids hauled off to fight for Jeeeesus.

[uppityperson]

132. Do you really think the politicians would listen?

Do they listen now? What makes you think they would listen to more outraged parents, take notice of peace marchers? How many more kids have to die first?

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iamjoy]

187. Hey, I'm Not Alone

John Conyers and Charles Rangel have proposed reinstating the draft for much the same reasons I am giving. These are not imperialist chickenhawks by any stretch.

You can say we are naive to think the draft would really be fair or to think that it would force an end to the war, but please realize I don't want your son to die, I don't want any one else's sons (or daughters) to die for this foolish cause.

[Extend a Hand]

190. You are advocating a policy that WOULD cause a massive number of deaths

I really can't understand your willingness to sacrifice MY ONLY CHILD because you think it will somehow make things 'fair'. (It won't). You may not be alone but Conyers and Rangel are just as wrong as you are. Protest marches didn't end the Vietnam war and protest marches won't end the war in IRAQ. Congress ended American involvement in Vietnam by CUTTING OFF THE FUNDING.

Cindy's son DIED in fighting in Iraq and I don't hear her calling for a return to the draft to 'make things fair' or to get out the protesters.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/congendswar.htm
In December 1970, Congress reacted to the U.S. invasion of Cambodia by passing the landmark Cooper-Church amendment to the Foreign Military Sales Bill. The amendment, named for and sponsored by Sens. John Sherman Cooper (R-Kentucky) and Frank Church (D-Idaho), prohibited the use of any funds already appropriated for military spending on the introduction of additional U.S. troops into Cambodia. While President Nixon denounced Cooper-Church as harming the war effort, he failed to veto it. Today, the Cooper-Church amendment is regarded as the first congressional action taken limiting presidential powers during a war.

Following Cooper-Church, and even after the Paris cease-fire agreement, Congress literally dropped the hammer on the Vietnam War with its passage in 1973 of a joint resolution (H.J.Res. 636) prohibiting any further appropriation or expenditure of any funds for any "combat in or over or from the shores of North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia."

[iamjoy]

240. I Don't Want To Cause Deaths

Why don't people understand that? I understand some disagree with my logic that a draft would end the war faster, why can't they understand I don't want anyone to die?

[NaturalHigh]

26. If you want a plan to bring about peace...

pass a law mandating that soldiers have to be 35-50 years old to go to Iraq. Everyone else comes home. We'll be out of the sandbox within three months.

[sarge43]

34. During Nam my cousin was a protester (turned in his card).

He asked me as career military if I had any problem with his stand. I told him no because it was his constitutional right to do so. Further, I had made my choice; he had to talk to the poor schlub who didn't have a rich father who could work a CYA for him and will be drafted in his place.

If the middle class hasn't hit the streets so far, why should they about a corrupt draft that will barely touch them? The same people who are volunteering will be the same people who will be drafted.

[Totally Committed]

37. Thank you for you post, and for your service to this country, as well...

I want you to kow that I in now way demean that -- ever.

This part of your post is pure wisdom, imo:

"If the middle class hasn't hit the streets so far, why should they about a corrupt draft that will barely touch them? The same people who are volunteering will be the same people who will be drafted."


TC

[sarge43]

62. Thank you, Committed.

I didn't think for a moment you were demeaning military service.

[Totally Committed]

65. Both my sons served in the military, and I have a son-in-law who is a Deserrt Storm Vet.

My daughters chose to serve their country in the Peace Corps and Vista.

I'm not against service. I'm against MANDATORY service. I do not want my grandchildren to be forced to fight if they choose not to. I don't want anyone else's kids or grandkids to be forced to, either.

It isn't "service" if it isn't chosen, it's conscription. And, if it isn't "service", people's values and beliefs will not be considered. It's one thing to volunteer, and quite another to be conscripted.

TC

[sarge43]

82. I agree.

It's a tough enough life to deal with when you want to be there. Forced into it, I can't imagine.

And yes, a salute to your family for stepping up to the line.

[Totally Committed]

83. They all chose their duty on their own...

aside from hooking my daughters up with Vista and the Peace Corps once they decided to do those things between college and grad school, they all did what they chose to do on their own.

TC

[AndyTiedye]

267. NO! NO! NO! MORE CANNON FODDER = MORE WARS!

We ALREADY don't want this war. 70% opposition is comparable to the Vietnam war in 1973.

Protesting was far more effective in those days because it got media coverage.
It is not nearly so effective today.
Letting them have the draft is a very high price to pay just to get a few more protests.

If you let them have the draft, they'll send a million troops into the Middle East. Maybe more.
It also gives them the manpower they need to impose martial law.

[Akoto]

17. As someone of draft age, no, and here's why ...

It boggles the mind that people think expanding the military is going to end the war. We have the most confrontational administration in our history, and you want to give them MORE troops?

Call me a chickenhawk or whatever, but if I wanted to fight for this administration, I'd be over there already. I'd thank people to not drool over the thought of using my generation's health and sanity in a far-fetched attempt to end military action. Those in charge have done more than enough to show their disregard for professional, volunteer troops and the public in general (which already strongly supports an end to this fiasco, by the way). Imagine what'd happen to the countless young people unwillingly turned into fodder for yet more unjust conflicts.

The whole line about 'no exemptions, it'll be equal!' is just BS. There will always be the powerful, and the not powerful. If you think the children of the privileged and wealthy won't find a way out of it, you're fooling yourself. It'll be people of the lower classes, such as mine, who end up going. Given the situation in Iraq, though, you're probably right about the reduced flexibility of deferments ... Only, not in the way you think. People genuinely unfit for duty, for physical or mental reasons, will likely end up being conscripted anyhow. Anything to have more people on the ground.

Oh, and if you want the Democrats to win in the upcoming elections, I'd also suggest being against the draft. Our people hold the majority in Congress right now, and Congressional approval is required to activate the draft. Whoever votes for it can wave a big goodbye to their political career. Once that happens, we'll have a nice Republican-dominated leadership again, and they can abuse the hell out of the conscripts you've handed them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

19. I vote no, because the cabal will use it pick and choose who HAS to go.

MKJ

[billyoc]

25. Yes, definitely. No COs, no college deferments, no medical deferments,

and everyone up to age 58.

[sarge43]

70. No medical deferments? I hope you're being sarcastic.

Otherwise, sign up and may your MOS be range master when the people with border line autism are attempting their first small arms qualification. Then, you can fly on the aircraft serviced by people with MS or color blindness. And you'll love the food especially considering the kid who just slopped SOS on your tray has hepatitis A.

[billyoc]

87. Color blind? Machinist's Mate. Autism? Motor Pool. Hepatitis A? 11-B.

Plenty of jobs to go around.

[Totally Committed]

97. Blind? .............Deaf? ............Mentally retarded?

Amputees? ........HIV+? .........Psychotic? Do you see what I mean?

Things are never that black or white.

TC

[billyoc]

99. I think I do see what you mean. You've gone from "HELL NO" to asking for

a pass for blind people.

Welcome to the mandate! :hi:

[Totally Committed]

104. Absolutely not!

I was trying to get you to see the error of your argument!

I will never support a mandatory draft to military service.

Never.

TC

[billyoc]

105. Oh, no, you said no blind people.

Draft on! :rofl:

[sarge43]

107. Maybe the Navy allows it; AF doesn't put anyone with color blindness

in either the mechanic or electronic career fields. Equipment wired badly tends to behave badly. Everyone in the armed forces has to qualify on small arms and yeah put someone in a motor pool who is hypersensitive to loud noises.

You didn't have an outbreak of Hep A on post during basic? You were lucky.

(typo)

[billyoc]

135. No, you're right. It was the Merchant Marines that let color blind guys

be engineers.

[ChiciB1]

27. Unless There Would Be Some GUARANTEE That "Rich" Kids Will

HAVE to go, then my answer would be NO! Because of this, I'm unable to vote... don't want a DRAFT, but think that it might send enough of a shock to Americans to get them off their DUFFS to finally "get involved" and put up a fight against THIS WAR!

The Idiot may not care, but I'd bet there would be hundreds of thousands who may FINALLY "see the light!"

[monmouth]

31. That's the winner... Look for cousins in Canada if the draft happens..

[zabet]

29. I would never

want my kids to fight a war started by people who refused
to serve in a war. awol and deferred is not service.

[ChazII]

30. No. n/t

[Onlooker]

32. Pay our soldiers better

We have no need for a draft, but we should increase the compensation, benefits, and training to make it a better opportunity than it currently is.

[Totally Committed]

35. Would you sign up to kill someone for more money?

Would you stick your head in a sharks mouth for more money?

Is there enough compensation for a life or a limb or a soul????


TC

[Onlooker]

61. That wasn't my point

To make a volunteer army fairer, make the wages such that it draws in people from more income brackets. Right now, I think soldiers earn something like $25k/year, which is vastly underpaid for people, right or wrong (and generally wrong), who are obliged to gives their lives because a lunatic is President.

[MethuenProgressive]

38. Impressment, not a draft. Kidnap Republicans and send them to Iraq.

I'll volunteer to join the press-gangs.

[Totally Committed]

88. Wouldn't that be illegal?

Just saying. The sentiment is appreciated, though.

TC

[colbertforpresident]

39. Draft

A draft would make the chickenhawks think twice about supporting this war. Mr. & Mrs. Joe Republican do not want their little Kyle to have to go and fight this war.

[Totally Committed]

42. That's just it, though... Mr. & Mrs. Joe Republican will always get little Kyle off...

Republicans ALWAYS know the right people to get their kids exempted. It'll be out kids and grandkids that will be drafted. Trust me.

TC

[MindPilot]

41. I say yes, and before anyone sends me down to the recruiter's office

I've already done my time.

Implementation of a draft would not only bring this war to a screeching halt, it is the only way to fix the military. The hyper brutality that the Americans are becoming know for I believe is a direct result of an all volunteer force.

A draft would save the military from having to spend billions of dollars on advertising and they would no longer have to lie to school kids about what a great career opportunity it is.

A reinstatement of the draft would also have to include women--anything else would be discriminatory.

I also have a son who is draft age and believe me I would do everything I could to keep him out.

[Totally Committed]

44. I'm speechless.

TC

[lazer47]

48. Been there done that,,,,,,,Kudos to you

[NaturalHigh]

54. I've done my time, too...

and I vote no. Anyone who thinks it will be all tangerine trees and marmalade skies with the implementation of the draft is wrong.

[Dogmudgeon]

43. The Republicans are committing suicide. Keep clear of the razor blade.

Yeah, I've heard it, Hillary wants a draft, and she eats the flesh of Christian babies, too.

It is understandable that team Bush would run the idea of a draft up the flagpole to see who salutes it. It also makes the "photo-op patriots" have to break a sweat.

So, I oppose a draft, but I strongly favor keeping studies, resolutions, and proposals for a draft on that proverbial table. War is too important to be left to the generals and peace is too precious to always fall like a burden onto a small group of mainly Quaker and Mennonite organizers who are short on time, money, and legal representation.

We canned the draft. Now let's try to sell it like cheap pisswater beer.

--p!

[johnfunk]

46. Force the RICH to pull their weight

... and force them to have to socialize, cooperate and build teamwork outside their bubble.

NO EXEMPTIONS, either!

[Totally Committed]

50. How?

No contientious objectors?

No medical deferrments?

What do you do with the kids that REALLY CANNOT fight for those reasons? And, how do we keep the rich and privileged from using those as loopholes. We've never been able to before, so why would it work now?

TC

[johnfunk]

177. Lots of rich folk would find "religion" to avoid the military...

... and would have a choice: full military training for a non-combat role (ambulance drivers, transportation specialist) or mandatory NON-paid national service (AmeriCorps). That should settle that.

The military should not exclude gays. so there would go that "medical" excuse. Most others? Probably not a problem -- but again, mandatory national service somewhere else

[ShortnFiery]

237. This crap about "mandatory nation service" meme reeks of The Hitler Youth Moment of the 1930s

and should be quashed poste haste. :scared:

[Totally Committed]

253. I asked this before, and since you so adroitly brought it back up....

Is it really "service" when it's mandatory? To me, MANDATORY service is slavery. Am I wrong?

TC

[USA_1]

157. Then Draft Republicans ...

... not Democrats.

[nevergiveup]

49. I voted yes

because I believe that if there had been a draft Chimpy would have never pulled this war off in the beginning or if the draft were initiated tomorrows, troops would be withdrawing by the middle of next week.

[NaturalHigh]

53. This falls under the category...

of half-assed schemes by liberals that I mentioned in another reply. Anyone in favor of a draft needs to scoot right on over to the nearest recruitment office and join up. Otherwise, quit thinking you're going to draft my kids for your lame ideas.

[Totally Committed]

55. Ditto, and well-said!

Lame, with a capital "L".

TC

[billyoc]

91. You keep repeating yourself. We've all been to the recruiters already.

What are your kids, something special?

[Totally Committed]

94. As for my kids: See #65

They all served as they saw fit, and on their own terms.

I do not believe military service should be mandatory.

TC

[NaturalHigh]

214. Yes, my kids are something special.

They are the most important things in the world to me. Sorry if that offends you. I would hope you would feel the same way about your kids. Regardless, nobody is going to force my kids to participate in a war. A draft is a stupid idea no matter which side of the aisle votes for it.

[Totally Committed]

220. YES!

Totally there with you on this!

TC

[nevergiveup]

111. been there, done that

If I actually had a meaningful vote on the draft I probably would not vote to draft your kids or my 24 yr old son. My point is that if there had been a draft there is a good chance we wouldn't be in this God awful unnecessary war. The Vietnam War, although a terrible mistake was based on years of anti-Communist brain washing and was at least somewhat understandable. This war was one man's delusional attempt to get tough on terrorism and if a draft had been in place we likely would have avoided this travesty. There is no way there will be successful pro-draft legislation these days but the talk about a draft is probably a good thing in terms of ending this fiasco. I am sorry you got so upset.

[HughMoran]

243. It's so obvious

Are all the people voting yes thinking a draft is a fucking joke - some kind of clever political ploy?

You get one of my kids killed and, well, what else can I say :(

[MichiganVote]

51. No, hell no.

[abluelady]

52. My belief is a draft is the Only way to end the war.

I would move my children out of this country before allowing them to go, because I don't believe in war. But until more people face the possibility of sacrificing, this war is going to go on and on and on and on. We have seen that the failure we have caused isn't ending the war. Something has to.

[Totally Committed]

57. No offense, but I don't want my grandkids used as leverage to end the war.

It's a scheme that will not work. Those with influence will always find a way around a Draft.

Not my grandkids, not my kids, not anyone else's kids!

NO WAY.


TC

[abluelady]

66. I Think We've Seen History Show That a Draft Ends a War

Too few of us care. Until everyone cares war will not end. More people will care when they are affected. I believe like you do but I don't believe our belief is enough. Sadly.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. 10 years and 50,000 dead. Some 'way to end a war'.

We have this bizarre theory floated here before. The vietnam war resulted in 50,000 of ours dead (and 2,000,000 vietnamese but we conveniently ignore that) and did not end until ten years after LBJ escalated it into a major conflict. The draft didn't end that war.

Korean War: 36,516 of ours dead. The draft didn't end that war.

World War II: 407,300 of ours dead. The draft didn't end that war.

World War I: 116,708 of ours dead. The draft didn't end that war.

Civil War: 600,000 (approx) on both sides dead. The draft didn't end that war.


Which war is it that the draft ended? All I see from the draft and its use in our country since the civil war is lots of dead people and lots of wars. The theory that providing an involuntary supply of human cannon fodder for the war machine "prevents wars" is total bullshit unsupported by actual facts.

[abluelady]

158. You don't think it ended the Vietnam War?

I absolutely don't believe a draft prevents wars. But when a war is as totally useless as Vietnam and Iraq, I believe it can help end it. I wasn't old enough or around to know of the other wars. But I have never heard the derision the Iraq war and the Vietnam war bring about when I hear older people speak of WW II and Korea.

I have to believe that people in the streets will end this war. Nothing else is doing it. And until we have more people aware of the war and its uselessness, which the draft will bring out, this war is not going to end.

[Warren Stupidity]

163. No it manifestly did not.

As somebody else pointed out, that war ended the draft, not the other way around. The war continued even after the draft was put on haitus. The draft sure as heck did not prevent us from getting into the war, the war continued with the pre-lottery draft from '65-69, and with the lottery draft until 73, and the war continued after the last draft for another two years. The draft did not prevent us from getting into the war and did not get us out.

[abluelady]

170. Well, I'm not going to argue with you.

I believe the draft caused people to care about a war and that imho is very helpful. We sure as heck aren't doing anything to end this war so I would be willing to try a draft. Any suggestions tht you think would work? Yes it did end the draft but I'm not sure we're not talking about a chicken and an egg situation.

[barbtries]

182. no, it was the huge numbers of dead bodies

that finally turned enough citizens against the war that the politicians had to end our involvement. and i could be wrong on this point, but rightly or wrongly, i've always believed that the death toll - americans only, now - rose to THIRTY THOUSAND before popular sentiment turned against our involvement in vietnam. and because that 30,000 number is so firmly in my head, since before the present day travesty began in Iraq i have feared that it would take that many dead american children before the people would rise up against the war with enough bodies and enough noise to make it stop. a fear i experience to this day.

[abluelady]

228. How Sad that One Body Is Not Too Much. eom

[uppityperson]

161. Thank you for the numbers. Indeed. No draft.

[rzemanfl]

115. The lottery kept the war going quite a while by making half the

draft age people safe. People with high numbers cared less, their girlfriends cared less, their parents cared less and their employers cared less.

[NaturalHigh]

63. So you believe in sacrifice...

just not for your kids (because you don't believe in war). Got it. I wonder how many people who don't believe in war will have to be sacrificed for your brilliant idea.

[abluelady]

67. I believe most people don't care about anything

unless they are personally affected. Sacrifice doesn't have to mean death. Just worrying about your kid being drafted may be enough of a "sacrifice."

eta: Every single day of the Vietnam War my peace of mind was sacrificed worrying about my husband who was given a 1A status and a number 2 in the lottery. Believe me "sacrfice" can be defined in many way.

[fujiyama]

194. So you move your kids out of the country...

What about the millions of families that are opposed to the war that don't have those resources to do the same?

[rzemanfl]

56. UNDERSTAND THIS PLEASE!

1) The people who understood how to run selective service (as bad as it was) are retired or dead. It will be run by cronies and religious nutcases.
2) Nixon used the lottery to divide his opposition and was able to continue the war. * will do the same.
3) Rich people will always be able to dodge the draft or at least avoid combat.

A draft is no better than the lord of the manor rounding up the serfs to go get killed to protect the land they didn't own.

[Totally Committed]

58. Thank you -- yet another point I hadn't thought of!!!!

All the Selective Service people would be dead and gone by now. Thanks.

TC

[CK_John]

100. In my area they have filled all vacancies with a recruitment drive and classes for prospects. n/t

[rzemanfl]

113. Please see my post below. Local Boards don't make the rules.

They can interpret them, but they don't make them.

[MindPilot]

102. The selective service boards are ordinary people.

Sign up. I did.

[rzemanfl]

112. True, but Local Boards don't make the rules. That's not to say

they can't have an influence working with the rules they are given. The Local Board in Madison, Wisconsin in the late '60s gave immediate alternative service to anyone who could say "conscientious" and "objector" in one sentence. The government appeals agent (a local attorney) saved me with my Local Board, because his kid and I were in very similar circumstances and he had the conscience (yes, there was a time when lawyers had those) not to let me go and his kid not go. He was rewarded by living to the ripe old age of 94. It may have helped that the board was well lubricated-by happenstance, and not knowing who they were at the time-I watched them exit the Pfister Hotel cocktail lounge together and make their way down Wisconsin Ave. to my appeal meeting in the federal building.

[OzarkDem]

59. True, very good points

Rich kids and GOP'ers aren't going to get drafted.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

64. I have 2 sons, one of draft age, the other close & over my dead body will I allow them to become

fodder for this war. I don't give a fucking shit what point you want to make about voting Yes. We are talking about real lives being sacrificed for fucking lies. I don't even want the Bush twins or Romney's whelps to go. Not one more life should be lost!!!!!

[stubtoe]

68. Yes. The risk of being drafted raises political consciousness.

I sure as hell remember the Vietnam draft. Public anger over that was very high indeed, especially as the war dragged on. We said "never again" but then, here we are in Iraq.

If we'd still had a selective service program going now, I bet we'd have had a whole lot more discussion about the wisdom and necessity of invading Iraq.

Just my humble opinion.

[TwilightGardener]

78. Yes. It's easy to live comfortably knowing that war will never affect you

without a draft--war is just something that happens to "those people", over there (and I include Iraqis in that). The public in general feels absolutely no consequence of war except having to look at unpleasant pictures on the teevee. I am a military wife and I believe a volunteer force is best, but when we are fighting a war on two fronts for 4, 5, 6 years, how long can a quality volunteer force last without being overburdened and wrecked? Start calling up some lottery numbers, and folks will focus on what's REALLY going on--pointless occupation, a civil war, no Osama Bin Laden after 6 years, no better safety from terrorism. Now see how the average fat, comfortable American feels about sending his kid off to die for total incompetence. Things will change--in a hurry. Guarantee it.

[Major Hogwash]

84. We've all been affected - a TRILLION DOLLAR war for nothing!

And the longer we stay in Iraq - the more money we will spend in Iraq.

It's like pouring water into the sands of the desert.

One can dig a hole, but it will never fill up to form a pool, it will just evaporate and disappear before our very eyes.

Bush has dug one hell of a hole in Iraq, and the more he defends it, the more entrenched in that hole he becomes.

But, the Democrats running for President today have to say "enough is enough", and vow to get out of Iraq as soon as possible - 6 months, tops.

There is no such thing as a slow retreat, it doesn't exist.

[TwilightGardener]

93. Your'e right that we've all been affected, but not in a tangible way, for most Americans.

On a personal-experience level, many people I know think the war is kind of pointless, but they just say "tsk tsk, that's a shame" and turn the newspaper page. It's simply not real, not a factor in their lives. And IMO, the only way to MAKE it a factor is to start requiring our sons and daughters to serve. Otherwise, it's an abstraction, and it's too easy to allow it to go on without challenge. I have two boys who are entering their teens. I don't want them drafted for this pointless bullshit policy (although one of them wants to enlist when he's of age). But we're essentially living a lie, as a nation--we're not coming to grips with the damage Chimpy is doing, to our country, our military, the ME, and a whole mess of Iraqis--because nobody's making us.

[Major Hogwash]

176. Wienerdoggie, we're not going to let them draft your sons.

I can guarantee that. There is no way in hell they will bring back the draft for this war. No way.

The party that advocates reinstating the draft is dead!!

It is political suicide for anyone to call for the US to reinstate the draft for this lie war.
There is no way they will call for it, no matter how bad the Army and the National Guard is broke.

[Sparkly]

69. Draft into military service, no....

But I think requiring *some* service is a good idea.

And, I think raising the question of the draft is a good idea, too -- hopefully, it makes the thoughtless cheerleaders stop and think.

[welshTerrier2]

72. SHAME on all who voted "Yes"

It never ceases to amaze me how conservative DU has become. We've watched the party's right wing give bush unconditional power and money to continue the occupation in Iraq. We've watched the party not stand up in opposition to the theft of our civil liberties when they allowed warrantless wiretapping in violation of the Constitution. And now, DU'ers of all people, so called "liberals", are prepared to empower more corporate tyranny by allowing them to come into America's homes and forcefully drag away America's children to fight in their wars for oil and defense profits.

The remarkable stupidity of the arguments put forward in support of a draft truly boggles the mind. Let's go through them, shall we?

1. Well, the most common one put forth seems to be that it will make things more fair.

Until we have a system of governance that allows each and every citizen equal access to the government and equal say in its decisions, there is ZERO reason to believe you will ever achieve "draft equity." Don't call for a draft until you're able to achieve equity in all other aspects of governance. You think because you propose your little ideas that "all will have to serve" will make it so? Just how naive are you????????????

2. If we had a draft, it would really energize the anti-war movement to fight back and it will help prevent war.

We fought back and we fought back hard during Vietnam. Yeah, if we had a draft, the resistance would be energized. It was incredibly energized during the Vietnam War. The result? While we were in the streets with our protest signs and our headbands, more than 55,000 American troops died. And what did they die for???????????? Did they die to protect this country from the onslaught of Communism? After the US withdrew, did the Vietnamese invade the US? Did the red peril spread like wildfire all over the world?????? Yes, a draft would energize the resistance movement. Is that a justification to hand the power of life and death itself to the madmen who comprise America's power elite???? Are you fucking insane?????????

You're so busy trying to make a "fair" system of service that you've completely overlooked how those draftees would be used. The US government and their corporate masters would like nothing more than to have America's permission to have the American taxpayer pay for their corporate armies. They would love to be able to send more troops to more countries to procure more oil profits for themselves. We pay the freight with the lives of America's children and our tax dollars and they rake in the bucks. And you're just fine and dandy with that as long as it's "fair." Are you fucking insane???????

Draft equity, in a vacuum, is an admirable goal. If we lived in a just society with a just government, perhaps the issue of conscription would be worthy of discussion. Fucking wake up you conservative macaroons!!!!!! You are endorsing the idea that you could prevent wars by handing more weapons to madmen. The way to create "draft equity" is to eliminate war. And, as the saying goes, if you want peace, work for justice. We have all these wars because the military-industrial complex profits from them. No profits; no wars. We have all these wars because Big Oil profits from them. No profits; no wars. The solution you're seeking by supporting a draft badly misunderstands the path to social justice. It's incredibly naive. The path to social justice demands that we cast the corporations out of the halls of government. We need to strip their access to our elected officials. We need to strip them of their ability to finance candidates and legislation.

The entrenched power in this country has almost unlimited resources to fight against us. And now, to stop them, you want to offer them America's children on a silver platter. Are you fucking insane?????????? SHAME on all who voted "Yes."

[Totally Committed]

74. Oh, I knew you'd agree with me!

The solution you're seeking by supporting a draft badly misunderstands the path to social justice. It's incredibly naive. The path to social justice demands that we cast the corporations out of the halls of government. We need to strip their access to our elected officials. We need to strip them of their ability to finance candidates and legislation.

The entrenched power in this country has almost unlimited resources to fight against us. And now, to stop them, you want to offer them America's children on a silver platter. Are you fucking insane?????????? SHAME on all who voted "Yes."

TC

[barbtries]

184. what an excellent response

i have to agree with every word. even though i am almost fucking insane with frustration over this fucking war and the people getting obscenely rich off it.

i think your response should be a post on its own and hope every DU'er gets to read it.

[welshTerrier2]

191. a sincere THANK YOU, barbtries

i read a little bit about you on your blog. you are a hero and a true survivor for what you have been through. i have no kids of my own, but in my own way, somehow I think I can understand. BTW, I love your King Solomon quote. It's so true; if only more saw the world that way.

one has to wonder how a reverence for life can mean so little to so many here on DU. their anger and hatred blinds them to the real enemy and hides from them the only path to social justice.

they remind me a little of this verse from Alice's Restaurant:

And I walked in and sat down and they gave me a piece of paper - said, "Kid, see the psychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink...I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill. Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin' up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL."

And the sergeant came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy." Didn't feel too good about it.

[Mythsaje]

205. Thank you...

This post deserves its own thread.

This stuff made me leave DU the last time it came up, I was so pissed off.

[sniffa]

219. oh i feeL so bad now

:boring:

and when i think conservative, i think of myseLf.

[billyoc]

73. Shame on all who voted "No".

Shame on you for allowing the poor and minorities to shoulder the burden of this war.

[Totally Committed]

75. This is a VOLUNTEER force.

The poor and the minorities are enlisting to fight in inordinate numbers because they are not being equally educated or given other options. Fight for THOSE things, not a draft! Poor kids will still have to go in a draft. Count on it!

TC

[uppityperson]

160. Indeed, having a draft won't help the poor or minorities at all.

[welshTerrier2]

79. the schoolyard bully is beating up the poor kids and the minorities

your argument is that you would support his efforts as long as he beat up all kids without discriminating.

[welshTerrier2]

141. crickets ...

silence was probably the best response.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Totally Committed]

124. I agree.

Totally.

TC

[fujiyama]

195. I'm with you

It's delusional to think people will magically "rise up with great anger and disgust" and "wake up" or any such bullshit as draft advocates believe. It amazes me that people can be so jaded and callous where they are willing to see more death to prove a political point.

[uppityperson]

159. A draft would target those same people

those unable to get around it by going to college or buying their way out through a physical or another way. Shame on you for wanting to sacrifice more of them.

[Colobo]

76. Hell NO!

[INdemo]

77. Hell No

As mentioned above ......the rich will always find a way to legally dodge the draft and even use political influence..Lets not try an relive that chapter in our history. if the draft was re-instated I would encurage my son-in law to resist because this is a Republican war so oil companies can increase their profits and inside trading Republicans can keep reaping profits from oil futures,.......No no draft.. Hell no ..Lets not that fall into that trap whereas politicians will tell us it would be the fair way of buildiing up our military..Dont believe this bull shit

[polichick]

80. As the saying goes, there is no way to peace...

...peace is the way.

imo war is passe ~ our military should only be used for the defense of this country and in peacekeeping. We don't need a draft for those purposes, but a voluntary professional military that's treated with great respect.


<>

[Totally Committed]

81. I have a T-Shirt that has that saying on it.

There is no way to Peace...
PEACE IS THE WAY.

TC

[polichick]

86. It's a great truth...

Though there's some question about who said it first, we all know it's so from our own experiences.

Saw another great t-shirt last night at a 60s party ~ a peace sign with the words "Back by Popular Demand"

[ThomWV]

85. Yes - every man and woman should serve their country

or go fuck themselves. Just my opinion of course, your's may vary.

[sarge43]

117. Yes they should

By preserving, protecting and defending the USC

By helping other people in need

By doing their life's work as best they can

By being honest and trustworthy

By taking care of the environment

By participating in their community's activities

By caring for their families

By continuing to educate and enlightening themselves

And they don't need a draft snapping at their heels to do these things

[fujiyama]

197. And the only way to serve your country

is to kill people!

Nice line of thinking...

[rjones2818]

92. Those of you who are for a draft...

there's a recruiting station near you (assuming you are of age).

[napi21]

98. I say YES, ONLY if Shrub demands it! THAT would be the quickest way

to end the war! BUT whatever Party pushes that through is politically DEAD!

[slick8790]

257. Are you out of your mind?

Seriously. You're willing to seriously disrupt the lives of thousands of young people, send them off in to the desert and put them in the line of fire TO PROVE A POINT? Do you have any kids who could be drafted? Could you be drafted (like i could, if you had your way)? How dare you use my generation to prove a point?

[ZombieNixon]

101. I cannot believe this.

More people have voted in favor of a draft (to give the Bush admin more warm bodies, essentially) than against it.

I love how people are willing to use my life and those of my peers as a bargaining chip. Thanks a lot. :eyes:

[Totally Committed]

103. I know... .it's so hard to believe!

I am stunned, really stunned.

TC

[HughBeaumont]

217. I'm past draft age and I think it's a stupid idea.

I have a stepson and he means the world to me. He isn't dying on some desert roadside for KBR and Bechtol.

Did ANYbody watch Gunner Palace? I find it telling that one of the soldiers there even said "I'm not really defending my country. I don't think any of us are or have been defending the U.S. in a long time."

The best line of Why We Fight comes at the end:

" I think we fight because basically not enough people are standing up saying, 'I'm not doing this anymore.'"

See my post below.

[Auntie Bush]

106. I voted no because when the Dems get elected we won't need one. However, if the Rethugs

win...my vote would be YES. No chickenhawk Rethugs would sign up so we'll HAVE to have a draft. Someone has to fight their planned never ending war and having a draft is the only way they'll get to do their fair share of grabbing oil and spreading freedom around the world from all the countries that have OIL. The only countries that have nothing to fear regarding our ripping off their natural researches are those that have none...everyone else will be getting freedom...whether they like it or not. That's going to take a lot of troops and we'll certainly be needing a draft. Too bad only Rethugs will be allowed to sign up! Only he who wants war should be allowed to play in it. Fair is fair.

[MadHound]

108. Amazing how many people, supposedly intelligent thoughful people

Can be duped into supporting this kind of stupid shit. What, you folks don't think that having over seventy percent of the population against the war is enough? Do you honestly think that Bushco, or for that matter the vast majority of our leaders D or R, will pay attention to the people are saying, since they aren't now? That somehow enabling Bushco's expansion of his ME adventure is a good think? That an increased body count, on both sides of this conflict, is a good thing?

Get it through your thick skulls, this sort of idea plays right into the Bushco/military industrial complex's hands. This won't end the war, it will enlarge it further. More death, more destruction.

If you want the war to end, then put pressure on your reps to defund the war. But don't buy into the draft bullshit, it is a chimera that will only lead to misery and death.

[Totally Committed]

109. It's astounding, isn't it?

Rarely am I left as incredulous as I am by this vote and thread.

TC

[Cobalt-60]

110. no - with a bullet

A Slave army?
I don't f*cking think so.
If they want a real fight, let them try to bring back the slavery of conscription.
They won't have to go overseas to get it.

[Hippo_Tron]

116. For all of the protests in the streets during the Vietnam era, the war still lasted a long time

By comparison, we'll be out of Iraq by 2009, assuming that we win the election. That will be less time than we were in Vietnam.

[Balbus]

118. I'm going to bookmark this thread.

So the next time I see a DUer whining about how Bush is going to bring back the draft to fight his wars, I can show that poster which party it is that really supports the draft.

[Totally Committed]

119. I agree. I'm shocked.

This thread has broken my heart.

TC

[Desertrose]

120. Are 50% of you people all crazy?

Or whatever percentage has just said YES to the draft?

Never thought I'd see this here.... on DU?!

Americans sure as hell have short memories.....

DR

[welshTerrier2]

121. and they still say DU hasn't been shifting to the right

over the last couple of months, I've seen staunch defenses on why it was necessary for the Democrats to cave in to bush on Iraq and continue funding what they prefer to call "bush's war".

I've heard all sorts of justifications for why it was both fine and dandy for the party to fail to protect our Constitutional rights.

And now, right here on DU, which we all know is a "far left" website, we have all these conservative macaroons offering the imperialist tyrants who run the government the lives of America's children without their consent.

This is a very, very sorry day for the DU community. Perhaps it's time to reassess the policies and procedures that have moved the DU population alarmingly close to republican positions on far too many issues.

[MrSlayer]

122. No fucking way.

There is no way in hell these cocksuckers are killing my kids for fun and profit. The idea that having a draft will end the war is insane when you are dealing with these kind of people. They don't care what the peasants (citizens) want and all the demonstrations in the world will not move them. They will happily expand their wars and send everyone to the meat grinder without a second thought. No draft.

[RFKJrNews]

127. I'm stunned by the results of this poll

Of course, I voted AGAINST bringing back the draft.

however, I understand the point that many are making here. The historical lesson of ending the Vietnam war basically boils down to the fact that we mobilized in large numbers against it because there was a draft.

There's no doubt that when you're fighting for your life, and those of your loved ones, you'll take to the streets. When there was a draft, the stakes were a lot higher.

But that doesn't mean I'd ever want to bring back the "cannon fodder machine" known as the draft to END a war. It was wrong then, it's still wrong now.




* SIGN THE PETITION to draft Robert F. Kennedy Jr. into the race for thw White House! http://RFKin2008.com

[Perky]

125. HOly Crap!!!!! talks about an even split at DU

[Desertrose]

126. Embarrassing if you ask me.

50/50 split about the draft??

CRAZY!!!!

[Totally Committed]

128. This shouldn't even be close!

This is no longer a Liberal left-wing Democratic board. No way.

I am disgusted.

TC

[RFKJrNews]

225. how "underground" is DU?

I'd have to agree with you, TC. Sadly.

In my short time here, I've been pleased to see some real progressives speaking out on the boards, but wonder why it's called "Democratic Underground?" The majority of views I see expressed here are pretty mainstream, actually.

What's so underground about it?




* Please SIGN THE PETITION to draft Robert F. Kennedy Jr. into the race for the White House!
http://RFKin2008.com

[Totally Committed]

252. This place has sailed to the Right in the time I've been here.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of the posters here think the name of the place is DINO StatusQuo.

The outcome of this poll has only convinced me further that I'm correct about that, too.

TC

[IndianaGreen]

137. Easy to vote "Yes" when one's own ass is not on the line.

I wonder if people have considered the ramifications of having a draft. At the strategic level, a draft will provide enough canon fodder to the military to keep the Iraq war going for decades. Is this what people want, keep the war going?

[uppityperson]

129. FUCKING HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is NO way that a bill would be passed that would not have some way for the rich /famous/ political to not be able to get out of it. It has never helped before, it won't help now, no fucking way.

[Totally Committed]

133. shameless self-kick

:kick:


This thread will not sink until the "NO"'s are further ahead.


TC

[ProudDad]

134. Yes

and ONLY draft kids from families making more than $250,000 per year...

They're the only fuckers making out in this economy they should pay for it with their kid's lives....


On edit: I posted my opinion on this here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2950246&mesg_id=2951072

[Totally Committed]

136. I hear you. You're angry. So am I. But, as a mother who lost a son way before his time, may I say

that NO PARENT should ever have to pay for anything with the life of one of their children.

TC

[barbtries]

185. i am also a bereaved mother

and you are so right. i cannot advocate killing, period.

[ProudDad]

244. You would probably agree with my linked post then

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2950246&mesg_id=2951072

There should be NO military beyond that needed (at present) for direct "self defense"...

There should be NO standing army. No legions of the Amerikan Empire in 100+ countries on this Earth...

No more war...ever...

[Totally Committed]

254. "No more war...ever..."

Amen.

TC

[slick8790]

258. Yeah, that'll solve everything.

"We believe that the son shall not bear the inequity of the father" - Edward R. Murrow

These kids didn't chose to be born to families with money, or familes with greedy bastard in them, however you choose to look at it.

[Totally Committed]

138. The results of this post, so far, is fucking depressing!

Anyone who voted YES should be ashamed.

TC

[Totally Committed]

139. Thanks to whomever just tied this up!

Renew my hope, and vote NO! Let's take this baby home!

Thanks!

TC

[Disturbed]

142. The Draft ended the Vietnam Conflict?

I doubt if there is any shred of proof of that.

[Totally Committed]

143. Where did I say that?

:shrug:

The draft is wrong. Period.

TC

[ProudDad]

245. Bodies in the street

and the draft and primarily Watergate -- ended Vietnam...

The draft helped 'cause it brought a critical mass of college age students whose asses were on the line into the streets...

[annabanana]

140. Kill for peace? Nope, not this girl.

[Totally Committed]

146. Isn't there a saying...

"Killing for Peace is like f*cking for virginity"?

I don't get this at all. I knew thos place was drifting to the Right, but this is so disheartening.

TC

[fujiyama]

200. or...

like sobering up by drinking...

[annabanana]

144. I have to believe this is being freeped..

I don't want to believe that DUers would send children to die to make a point.

[Totally Committed]

145. It's sick. n/t

TC

[polichick]

147. It's possible they believe a draft would act as a deterrent to war...

...but I'd like to think this thread is being freeped too.

[Totally Committed]

148. Have you read some of the responses? From everyday DU-ers.

I'm so disappointed. Even if this is being freeped, having that many real everyday DU-ers weighing in on the YES side is fucking depressing.

TC

[polichick]

149. I only read a few...

...just enough to make me sick. :crazy:

[Disturbed]

150. "I Think We've Seen History Show That a Draft Ends a War."

abluelady

There are many others that have this opinion. I'd like to see proof of that.

[AtomicKitten]

151. I voted "no" because "hell no" wasn't an option available.

[Totally Committed]

152. I knew that would be your reaction!

Good for you!

TC

[LWolf]

153. No.

"life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" includes, imo, liberty to choose whether or not to serve, and how to serve.

Government forced service is not "freedom."

[Pyrzqxgl]

154. God, You guys are a bunch of creeps!

Saying yes to a draft? You people don't belong in DU. You don't belong in my Democratic Party.
I had friends who spent time in prison because they opposed that other "dirty little war". I
used to carry a sign at demonstrations that read "WILL I BE DRAFTED FOR CARRYING THIS SIGN" &
I spent a few sleepless nights worrying about that even though I was a c.o. I can't believe
this poll is so close. You yes votes ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

[Totally Committed]

155. Exactly!

I feel the same way.

TC

[HardWorkingDem]

201. How dare you....

What is up with the terrible courtesy here at DU?

Calling a fellow Dem who has a different opinion a "creep" is BS.

Since you are so strongly opposed to a draft and feel those that are not are creeps, just what have YOU done for your country?

[USA_1]

156. IMPOSE A 100 % EXCESS PROFITS TAX ...

... AND THIS WILL END ALL WAR!!!

[Totally Committed]

162. Have you voted yet?

If you can vote NO, please do!

TC

[ChazII]

168. Finally, the no votes are pulling ahead. n/t

[Totally Committed]

172. It's a disgrace that it too this long.

I still can't believe this.

TC

[Alexander]

164. Fuck no! The Republicans will amend it until all the rich kids are exempt...

And they'll scare Democrats into voting for it, as usual.

A draft is a monumentally stupid idea.

[Totally Committed]

165. Thank you!

I knew I could count on you.

TC

[sanskritwarrior]

174. Good God no

we don't need unmotivated, surly kids that don't want to be there........I have been a volunteer for 14 years and I only want to serve with volunteers, draftees would be worth less than the shit off my shoe.........

[MindPilot]

175. There are former draftees on DU

who would surely appreciate that comment. :eyes:

[sanskritwarrior]

188. My dad was a draftee

I'm not knocking draftees in general.......I'm saying I don't want any kids of this generation being drafted against their will fighting in Iraq with me.......They would be worth less than the shit on my shoe, the draftess of WW2 saved the world and I fully acknowledge their sacrifice for freedom..............Past draftees are awesome........Kids of today would be worthless and would just get in the way of all of us volunteers........

[ProudDad]

246. Not True

"the draftess of WW2 saved the world"

but it appears to be a convenient myth for the corporate capitalist masters...makes it easier to fool people into thinking that war is worth a shit...

[barbtries]

179. sinced you insisted,

i said no. i have a 15-year-old son and i'll be gawd damned if he's going to be forced to go die for the bastards who have stolen the country and plunder and fleece it daily.

there is an upside to a draft conceivably. that is that the wars might cease if the children of the rich and powerful actually had to serve. problem is, they wouldn't - they'd get out of it just like bush and cheney did in vietnam. so, no. no draft. if they tried to take my son, particularly at a time such as this, when we are deep into a war that never should have happened, i'd move to a different country. as it is i feel i've lost the united states of america as i once knew and loved it.

[onewholaughsatfools]

180. as a vet, i say no

support for a draft, of course only gives an endless supply of soldiers for worthless wars........

[The Gunslinger]

186. Nobody will force my children to join the military...............Period

[unkachuck]

192. NO DRAFT!

....why should a piece of old-life (like me) have the right to commited fresh young new-life to an involuntary death for fun and profit...

[fujiyama]

193. No

Those advocating for a draft are callous, jaded and incredibly NAIVE!

Anyone wishing more death to prove a political point is SICK. Sorry. That's the way I feel. You want a draft? Go fucking enlist or have a family member enlist. I'm sure watching a family member come back without a limb or in a flag draped coffin will really prove a point.

Do draft supporters really think republicans will not find a way out? You think rich young republicans will be forced to go? Then you're fucking naive as is Rangel in this case.

Ultimately the poor and lower middle class will serve and DIE like all other previous wars. Some people will whine. Many will cry. But most will shut up, and go along with whatever the president says. They did during all previous wars where a draft was in use. If a draft is brought back, people will just believe it was "done so for a good reason" and that "we have a war we must win". You think most of those opposed to the war will break the law and not go?

All a draft ensures is more cannon fodder. Anyone believing otherwise is naive.

[sojourner]

198. NO!!!!!!!!!!! I have a son and a grandson I'm bound to see live out their lives

rather than feed them to this asshole and his war.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

202. No way!!

...Oil is not worth my children's lives.

[ButterflyBlood]

203. NO! Using young adults' lives to make a political point is SICK!

And people using that argument are disgusting, and on the level of the Freepers.

[Trajan]

204. Its important to recognize that many DUers vote for the draft as a tool ....

I am totally against a draft ... But I have heard liberals make the argument that instituting a draft would reduce the range of popular support. But I have always thought it a selfish and cynical gambit that places ego before the REAL lives of REAL boys and girls .... As if getting more kids killed in this war will make more citizens alter their support ..... It is obvious that the only people who DO support this war nonsense are untouchable with notions of right and wrong and justice ... Having MORE kids killed, but at random, will solve nothing in the end ....

The idea that MORE death will create LESS war flies in the face of logic .... I think it is an unfortunate belief for Liberals to hold ....

Count me as NO ...

[Lilith Velkor]

247. Many DUers vote for the draft because *they* are tools, IMFO

I don't think the Dems are that stupid, but if they are, they deserve to lose again.

Too bad for the fucking planet, though. :nuke:

[Mythsaje]

206. A resounding, unequivocal NO!!!

I can't believe we're doing this dance again.

Feeding more kids to the war machine to pursue a political agenda is cynical, sick, and just fucking wrong. Shame on anyone who thinks killing more innocent kids will help end the war. They'll just take it as a sign they should invade the NEXT country on the list.

:banghead:

FUCK

[HughBeaumont]

210. Funny thing about fishing, it never works out so well for the bait.

WHAT is UP with all of the DU people who think the draft is a great idea?

Even scarier are the people on DU, usually those far past draft age, are the ones that go beyond the heavily-mistaken "it would get the country fired up" notion and honestly believe that we should actually stop the military meat grinder by throwing more innocent children into it BY FORCE.

Never mind the issue of how you would fund such a debacle, or the fact that enforcing it would divide the country so horribly and turn it into a true police state that you only read about in fiction novels.

Never mind the fact of the country being thrown into political, economic and societal upheaval. Are we going to pull kids from universities, jobs and families, and then stick all of these unprepared, physically unfit and forced-to-serve people in a boot camp to go and fight an occupation of a sovereign nation which was based on LIES?

I think people who propose this idea have resigned themselves to the notion that peace simply isn't possible in this day and age. It's practically a given that America is never, ever going to kick it's screwed-up addiction to militarism because war is far too profitable an opportunity to pass up for it's corporations and crony capitalists. War with someone is inevitable no matter who we put in office.

I'm just not seeing how a draft would cure that addiction rather than exacerbate it.

Like sending poor and middle class people off to die in profitable wars is going to make the "betters" see the error of their ways?

The "betters" have no stake in anyone but themselves.

"Lose your job? PFFFFT. I'll just get an Indian or Malaysian to do it for me, and you'll still buy my product with your little credit card because you need it NOW. "All-inclusive" draft? PFFFFT. We'll find loopholes. If we can't find 'em, we'll create them. You silly little fool; if you think my kids will even set foot on an Army base by force, then you really ARE as naive as we paint you out to be."

You think ANYthing that asks the people who only care about themselves to sacrifice for a nation whose people they couldn't care less about will ever pass? And if such a proposition DID pass, does anyone HONESTLY believe that the "betters" or their kin will see hour ONE of boot camp?

Personally, I'm against a draft, simply because I don't believe in giving my life to a country that taxes the shit out of me and others, yet:

* allows 46 million people to go without health insurance
* spends damned near ZILCH on what we NEED to spend money on (schools, health care, infrastructure repair, safety net for unemployed workers, etc)
* gives the castle keys, welfare and tax breaks to the ultra-wealthy and corporations that offshore jobs
* pours all of that tax booty to the Pentasewer and their worthless failure of a bloodbath that's only designed to make more money for American corporations.

You start correcting that and the nearly 9-trillion dollar national debt and then we'll start talking about "skin in da game". You stop rigging the political system so my choices are a rich pro-war, pro-free-trade Republican versus a rich pro-war, pro-free-trade Dem and then we'll talk.

No Iraqi ever did anything to me or my family.

I mean, say a draft gets enacted. What do pro-drafters expect or want to happen? Chaos? Riots? More importantly, DO you expect the Failure Fuhrer and the Chickenhawk Gang to listen?

He DOES. NOT. CARE. THEY do not care. Does it need to be repeated?

Nor will a storming of DC happen, because the result will be just as bad as a war itself. The police and Blackguard WOULD fire on their own citizens, because don't think for one SECOND they aren't assigned to protect the interests of the "betters" before that little myth of "defending the Constitiution". It's what every soldier signs up for and is supposed to do, but as this war and others before it have proven in the last half century, becomes hogwash once you get warmongers and profit facilitators like Reagan and the Bewshes in office.

The military is supposed to defend our country and our Constitution. Yet under Repuke presidents, they become corporate mercenaries doing the bidding of KBR, Halliburton and Exxon/Mobil.

No, what's going to happen is not a choice of "peace corps", "feeding the poor", VA hospitals, etc, etc. There will be no non-combat option for the millions that will be subjected to this madness.

Your kids, my kid and millions of other children will be forced at gunpoint into boot camps all across the country. Then, should they survive that, they will be spilling their blood in the sand in pre-emptive aggressive attacks ALL over the Middle East and Western Asia. Thousands upon thousands of lives will be butchered, World War Fucking Three will be started, and the "draft-away" people's little "point" just fell flat on it's collective face.

Wow, now THAT'S democracy. Aren't you glad you had that "skin in da game"? Wasn't that much more satisfying than supposedly sitting on your asses and doing nothing?

Oh wait. They can't answer, nor can they help build our nation back . . . because they're dead.

What an absolutely sad and appalling mindset this is.

Count me OUT of that insanity. Gambling with other people's lives and forced servitude is going to lead to nothing but an economically and morally ruined nation. If anything, it's going to make people (including it's own citizens) HATE our country more rather than be proud we have a stake in it.

Let's talk peace and ending America's over-addiction to militarism. Lets learn the lessons of Japan and see where militarism and warmongering got them.

In six years, my stepson will be of draft age. He isn't getting forcibly tossed into any corporate meat grinder to prove a political point, and I'll have words with any sumbitch who thinks he SHOULD be.

[NaturalHigh]

215. "It never works out so well for the bait"...

Well stated. It's discouraging to see so many DUers volunteer our young people as bait and pretending it's the "liberal" thing to do.

[welshTerrier2]

221. excellent post. i hope others read it!!

too many are blinded by what I call "draft equity." "why should only the poor volunteer to serve their country" they ask.

many of those who volunteered may well have done so with noble intentions. the sad reality, however, lies elsewhere.

to conscript any person to fight for Exxon's bottom line and for the unlimited gluttony of the military-industrial complex is unconscionable. that isn't creating draft equity; it's forcing America's children to die for greed.

[HughBeaumont]

222. The greatest solution to ending war is to STOP ELECTING WARMONGERS!

What did NO one understand about this in November 2000?

Can we FINALLY wake up and learn the harsh lesson NEVER to elect fundamentalpatient, borrow-and-spend, whiskey-throttle-governing, hard-right Reaganite Republicans to office AGAIN?

Can we FINALLY as a nation STOP being so goddamned DUMB?

It's evident by all of the blank checks that this Congress is fearful of Bewsh and Cheney and isn't going to even take steps to end the occupation until after January 2009, when the Blight House has been fumigated and the Twin Satans have crawled back in their hidey-holes. In this sense, I think people have given up hope that a peaceful solution is possible and they want to just head on down to the violent one.

[Totally Committed]

230. AMEN!

I've been saying that for ages.

YES!

TC

[Jai4WKC08]

232. People don't care if they elect war mongers

And they won't care until it affects them personally.

Even Democrats don't care. Remember that in 2003, every poll said Democratic primary voters cared mostly about jobs, healthcare, education. The war was WAY down on the list.

True, there seems to be a little more interest in the war this election cycle. But I'd submit that if the war weren't going so badly, Americans still wouldn't care. Look how ready they are to believe the surge is a success.

[Totally Committed]

234. Correct, as usual, Jai!

Unfortunately for this country, and the situtation you state is absolutely on point. If it wasn't going so badly, would people be this upset about it? I know I would. I know a lot of others would, too. But nowhere near enough to make people consider it a no-go in the GE.

So, we keep getting these war-mongers, and little or no domestic policy because of it.

:hi:


TC

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

218. If there is a war, there should be a draft

That way there will be less war because everyone has a stake in it. And yes, I am eligible for the draft.

[AndyTiedye]

266. Then There Will be More War Because They Have More Cannon Fodder

When 70% of the people oppose the war, and they're escalating it anyway,
when we're protesting and voting and calling our congresscritters and everything else,
we should have enough public support for ending the war to end the war.

But it's not working.
They aren't listening to us.
I don't think we can yell any louder.

A draft will do nothing to end the war, and much to enable its expansion into Iran and Syria.

[bpeale]

223. i think the republicans should do it...

if they don't want to ever hold office again

[RFKJrNews]

224. The poll results are a bit more encouraging today...

...but that's still too close for comfort.

Last time I checked in, it was an even 50/50 split, so I'm a bit more encouraged today.




* Please SIGN THE PETITION to draft Robert F. Kennedy Jr. into the race for the White House!
http://RFKin2008.com

[hollywoodlib]

226. did you see this

Bush Adviser wants to bring back the draft
Check out this new Bush Comic

<a href="http://www.thehollywoodliberal.com/2007/08/12/comic-say-hi-to-the-insurgents/">Say Hi To The Insurgents</a>

[Totally Committed]

227. Thanks for posting this.

I think everyone should click and read.

TC

[Hydra]

229. Absolutely not!

I don't care who says it would help us- if we don't have a revolution right now, a draft ain't going to help with that. I'm not sure anything will anymore.

We should have reached the tipping point last year with the Military Commissions Act of 2006. There is no excuse that the current gov't is still in place after that.

[Phoonzang]

231. Uh no... I'm not dying to make a political point.

I'm within the age range to be drafted. Self-preservation you know...

[rucky]

233. Will it end the war, or start another?

sorry. too risky.

:thumbsdown:

[ToeBot]

235. I'm not about to support something wrong just to provoke a response.

No matter how appropriate and expedient that response may be.

[ShortnFiery]

236. Yes, besides, the wealthy and connected SONs will NOT ever serve.

:thumbsdown:

[Totally Committed]

238. Anyone who was around during the last "draft" knows just how right you are!

That's one of the many reasons I'm against a "draft" ever again.

TC

[geek tragedy]

239. Are we talking about troops or Al Gore? eom

[jenmarie]

241. Absolutely, positively NO

No, no and no.

Yes, it would finally get people off their couches and out into the streets, it would get the youth of this country involved and engaged, but at what cost? So we can supply the fodder for PNAC plans, further enrich the Corporate Powers who profit from endless war, and watch our reputation and legitimacy further erode to the point of no return? And no one should doubt that the children of the elite will always have a way out.

[chefgirl]

248. Not just no, but

FUCK NO!!

There's so much going through my mind right now, after reading all the 'Yes' replies in this thread, that I don't even really want to begin typing any of my arguments against the draft, for fear I'll never be able to stop.

I'll say this, however...I can only hope that the people advocating for a draft, because it will "finally end this war the way a draft ended Viet Nam", are simply too young to 'really' have any clue.

Here, let me give you one. The draft did NOT do shit to end the war in Viet Nam. For Christ's sake, read a fucking history book!

By the way, when are all of you going to enlist??? What's that you say?? Not you??? Well not my ONLY CHILD either!!!

NOT because dying for his country is the worst thing they could ask of him, but because KILLING for the lies of this administration is!

-chef-

[Jack Sprat]

249. "YES", for a Draft.

I made a total of $1500 in my 1st year of military service in 1968. Because you dislike this particular war or you don't particularly care for the military way of life, in general, makes no difference to me. The military needs the entire spectrum of our citizens and not just the ones needing jobs. In conflicts like this one, parents across the broad spectrum of our society need to share in the sacrifice and not just the parents on one side of town.

If you want to take to the streets in protest, fine. Why did you wait until it affected you personally? You need a lottery number, if that is the way it will be done, and you need to share the responsibilities of being a soldier and a citizen. Put some pride in yourselves, young people. You cannot stay on the farm forever, lads. There is a world of wonder awaiting beyond the great sea. The adventure of a lifetime is waiting for you in the United States Army. For those of you hard and lean, the U.S. Marine Corps is an even better choice. Duty, honor, and country! Never forget it.

[calteacherguy]

250. The draft is a moral imperative as long as this war go on...this country need to WAKE UP!

It is morally reprehensible what we are asking soldiers to do while the rest of us go merrily along on another visit to the local shopping mall, oblivious.

[Totally Committed]

255. So you want us to "wake America up" by sending MORE of our kids to war?

Uh..... no, thanks.

If the only thing it takes to wake Americans up is the blood of young people, PLENTY ENOUGH has been spilled already... and, as you say, they are still blissfully asleep, so why toss mmore bodies on the pile?

This is a disgraceful tactic to use to wake people up.

TC

[calteacherguy]

256. No, not more. Just equal opportunity. nt

[uppityperson]

260. Do you truly believe THIS congress would pass such a draft bill?

Equal opportunity, no getting out due to money, power, connections? If you believe that, if you really believe that, best of luck.

[Totally Committed]

262. This is a country where ANY rich white kid will ALWAYS be able to get out of a Draft.

ANY. RICH. WHITE. KID. No matter what the "Law" says; No matter what promises are made; No matter what safeguards are put in place.

If you don't believe that, then you are naive.

The same kids that are going in now in droves, plus those from the Middle CLass who are in college will be drafted into a war those same rich white kids' parents vote for and support.

Always been that way. Always WILL BE that way.

TC

[RFKJrNews]

263. Exactly right, TC!

Hmmm...here's a question for ALL senators, representatives and presidential candidates (both Rep and Dem) which nobody seems to be asking right now:

If we bring back the draft, will YOU send YOUR kids to fight the war?


(TC, *love* the new pic of RFK Jr. in your sig space!)



* Please SIGN THE PETITION to draft Robert F. Kennedy Jr. into the race for the White House!
http://RFKin2008.com

[Progressive Friend]

259. NO! And if you voted "Yes", please go and enlist

I could be making a lot more money if I enlisted, but I refused to do so, as the war in Iraq is both criminal and immoral.

[steven88]

264. We may not have a choice

We may not have a choice. If we break the army we have now and cannot get new recruits, we may have to go to a draft. Not to support Iraq but just to have a large enough standby military to defend ourselves in general.

[win_in_06]

268. Yes

[Totally Committed]

269. With all due respect.... WHY?

Wow.

TC

[snot]

272. And definitely not while this Admin's in power.

[Hollow Shells]

273. Absurd

It is absurd to believe that people rioting in the streets would force Bush to back down. It is much more likely that he would just gas everyone, and if that did not work, then we would be in a horrible police state.