A Seventhson Perspective on Kerry and the "Scandal": To Kerry & Friends

[seventhson]

I will say only a few things:

1) If this was total fabrication then I was totally fooled by it and I admit it. I am sorry for that.

2) I think that if there is any evidence out there that she said anything otherwise than what she said in her statement (if there are letters and there IS a video) then the story is not over. But I am not confident of that.

3) If there are no tapes and no letters and no credible friends then Drudge has been discredited beyong repair (which is not such a bad thing under the circumstances). ALL of the other media who reported "facts" also have been hurt.

4) ALL of the above STRENGTHENS Kerry and STRENGTHENS the Dems.

5) Therefore, ultimately, it was probably a good thing.

6) I personally did not even really believe that Kerry would be so stupid. But I felt the same way about Clinton and got terribly burned.

7) I await any information on the alleged tapes and letters. It COULD be that the story has been buried -- but if there are tapes which contradict her statement then the scandal IS far from over and so we must ALL be wary, BUT

8. For now I will, as promised, back off. That does not mean complete silence but I will NOT be trying to drive this story on DU as long as there is no SOLID evidence Ms. Polier is lying. Sold means verifiable statements of those who have actual knowledge (witnesses) or hard evidence such as letters or tapes that can be confirmed.

Thanks to those who graciously accept my apology for being too quck to jump on what I really believed was a likelihood given the allegations of letters, tapes, and the statements of the parents.

I still am opposed to Kerry in the Primaries.

But this event WILL make his candidacy stronger and hastens, I believe, the exit of the BFEE dominance in Washington.

And that IMHO is a good thing.

Shalom/Salaam and Peace Out!!!

Seventhson

[mzmolly]

1. Ditto. Can I say *ditto?*

;) It sounds so much less passionate that way...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Hopefully it is not a personal attack to say I don't accept your apology

[Maddy McCall]

4. Nor I

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. Nor I (eom)

DTH

[pezcore64]

13. aw

how big of all of you!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[WillyBrandt]

18. Hear, hear DTH

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[XanaDUer]

24. I fourth that, too

The number of posts on this from one poster was over the top.

PS-hope you've learned not to spread slimy rumors until they are substantiated.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Tweed]

37. I'll fifth it again n\t

[WillyBrandt]

66. I'll second it once more.

[Zomby Woof]

38. Neither do I

[MaineDem]

3. I'll just say "ok"

Because what I orginally typed probably would have been deleted.

[movonne]

6. We really have to get behind Kerry or whomever gets the

nomination. After all this administration is so bad with going to war without reason...Awol,etc. An affair should be the least of our worries.

[oasis]

7. I'll measure your apology against Kerry's non denial/denial on Imus

and divine the level of sincerity. Fair enough?

[NNN0LHI]

8. If the "Clinton had a black love child" story didn't discredit Drudge...

...beyond repair years ago in anyones mind I honestly feel sorry for them. Thats the truth.

Don

[BruinAlum]

12. And the Blumenthal beats his wife story

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Maddy McCall]

14. Yes, and the proof will be in the posting from henceforth.

[BruinAlum]

10. Too many "if's" and conditions in there. No sale.

[sistersofmercy]

11. apology accepted

a lesson learned because we're going to have a tough GE. Anything can and will be spin against the Democratic candidate.

[funky_bug]

16. You have garnered a great deal of respect from me

For what it's worth, I did not expect anyone to admit they bought into this Kerry story. I admire the fact that you are clear-minded, and base your assumptions on facts. Thank you, seventhson.

[seventhson]

84. Thanks - I thought I saw a wolf

someone else said they SAW a wolf.

I cried "Wolf"

When you are on the watchtower that is your job.

and if the person who said they saw a Wolf is a rotten liar - then I should maybe have waited to see the wolf myself.

But I was taking no chances.

I believe I have already seen the wolves lurking - and so I sounded the alert.

I was trying to protect the sheep.

And when you have seen the wolves and been attacked by the wolves you remain a little guarded at all times.

[WillyBrandt]

17. I do not accept your apology

It is loaded with conditionals, and is offered only after the prior rumors were forcefully discredited. Nasty scandal-mongering is extremely irresponsible, and downright deleterious to our chances of beating Bush. This time it seems there was no harm, and possibly some benefit, as you say.

But the underlying motive--to discredit based upon the superfluous, the dubious, the false--shows no sign on being renounced in your apology.

[JVS]

19. You are a class act Seventhson!

:toast:

[seventhson]

85. Thanks

I am saddened the Dean and Edwards are seemingly going to lose to Kerry.

I hope that Edwards is the VP and I expect that Dean may be a real roce in the party. He would be good in a Kerry cabinet.

I have not given up all hope,

Only a lot of it.

[Adelante]

21. I accept

Provided, while there is still time, you edit out everything that precedes the following:

Thanks to those who graciously accept my apology for being too quck to jump on what I really believed was a likelihood given the allegations of letters, tapes, and the statements of the parents.

I still am opposed to Kerry in the Primaries.

But this event WILL make his candidacy stronger and hastens, I believe, the exit of the BFEE dominance in Washington.

And that IMHO is a good thing.

Shalom/Salaam and Peace Out!!!

Seventhson

If you are big enough to do that, I will sincerely accept your apology.

[The Magistrate]

22. Well Said, Mr. Son

Particularly Nos. 1 and 8.

We will doubtless continue to have our differences here, Sir, but this strikes me as an honorable declaration on your part.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[maxanne]

25. thanks seventhson

I'm sorry you're getting beaten up for expressing yourself honestly on this thread.

I think your statements show decency and integrity. I'm assuming no one held a gun to your head to make you start this thread. You didn't have to apologize at all. I'm sorry that you're being treated with such judgemental hostility.

maxanne

[Cooley Hurd]

26. Good show!

Your opposition to Kerry is well-known, but you're certainly taking a high road with your statement. :thumbsup:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[DiverDave]

29. Nope

You were not even close to being fair before.
I tried to tell you, as did others.
You were wrong, and you have to put CONDITIONS on your apology?

You either are, or aren't, sorry. Period.
I can't wait to hear your take on the next rovian gambit.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[MurikanDemocrat]

32. Wow. I've never seen so many loopholes in an apology before.

I think I'll adopt a wait and see approach.

[union_maid]

33. I'm for Kerry now, but I do understand

I don't have any patience for posters who say they're not voting for the nominee (yes..everyone is free to vote as they want. Everyone is also free to vehemently disagree, and even be angry about it.) but I don't think people should stop supporting their candidates in the primaries if they so choose. Reasonable criticism of other candidates is productive. We should all stop short of smearing, but feelings run high. A reasonable criticism is bound to be met with a rebuttal and before you know it..meltdown.

I remember the feeling when I found out that it was true about Clinton, too. I was so angry. In some ways, I still am. I've defended Clinton against freeper types, and he was light years better than what we've got now, but his actions with regard to his libido were so irresponsible not only toward the principles in the drama but also to everyone who voted for him. He didn't have the right to do what he did. Plus she was so young....sleazy indeed. So, I understand the feeling and why all kinds of red lights and sirens would go off. But, as you say, this could end up making him a much stronger candidate in the long run.

[Duder]

35. I agree...

Monica put things in a different perspective:

8. I have never had a sexual relationship with the President...

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/clinton0314_lewinsky_affidavit.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Perhaps I should explain my lack of acceptance

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=325865

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=340845

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=337204

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=331436

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=325255

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=325553

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=322565

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=319735

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=307315

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=289700

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=250385

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=208543

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=195736

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=198273

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=194223

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=141900

And that is just one month's worth of unsubstantiated rumors

[Forkboy]

40. Yeah,but BESIDES all that....

:D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Other than that I have no reason to doubt anyone's sincerity

[MurikanDemocrat]

62. Half of those in the last 4 days

2-15
2-15
2-13
2-13
2-13
2-13
2-12
2-12

2-10
2-07
2-01
1-27
1-26
1-26
1-26
1-19

[_NorCal_D_]

68. You forgot a couple:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=388278

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=79539

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=79583

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=94337

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=80225

[WillyBrandt]

69. "Citizen Clark: Why Electing a Mass Murderer would be a Bad Idea"

Is the subject line of the first post from above.

Sickening.

[seventhson]

74. It happens to be the title of the article

which I believe is required when posting articles.

I happen to be a pacifist. I oppose Clark completely and I DO consider him a war criminal for his use of depleted uranium and the defense of it as well as for his civilian casulaty counts.

You can say this is sickening to you. But I find the death of civilians sickening.

Peace, dude

It's my opinion.

[_NorCal_D_]

86. And that is respectable,

nevertheless some of these claims are outright bizarre to say the least.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bonobo]

34. Wow! This thread is racking up the "deleted names"!

I was one of the victims. Let's see if I get another...

Mr. Seventhson, I find your post to be insincere, full of conditionals and loop-holes and pretty much worthless as an apology. I speak not of you yourself as worthless, but rather your post. I am sure you are a great guy and we would have lots of fun together.

But if, as you say:
"ALL of the other media who reported "facts" also have been hurt."

then I would add parenthetically that your reputation also may have suffered a blow due to this. And that, "IMHO", also would not be a bad thing. You, too, will be strengthened and wiser as a result (maybe).

[Forkboy]

41. Great av Skepty!

The Doc is in!

[Bonobo]

60. Thanks. I like the Gojira av too.

BTW, did you know "Gojira" comes from 2 Japanese words:

1. Kujira = Whale
2. Gorira = Gorilla

[Forkboy]

70. As a matter of fact I did know that

I'm a Zilla fanatic :)

[salin]

43. This seems like a good place to add...

I accept the posts appology... conditionally... i.e., we don't see multiple other threads saying the same thing - but somehow seem to serve to keep the story alive through repeating it through a conditional appology; we don't see variations of the thread with more sources that are related to the original (smear) stories just from different sources (e.g., all from the same origins); we don't see the conditional appologies used to forward additional other borderline/smearing claims....

[Tweed]

45. Beautiful n\t

[BootinUp]

47. I have been missing some good ones

that was a riot.

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Apology accepted but I didn't read much of those threads anyway.

I sure hate that I missed reading all of the deleted posts. I really suggest the moderators would leave the actual posts and just delete the name. I hate it when I miss a good debate/fight!

[Renew Deal]

44. Who am I not to accept apologies?

:)

[BootinUp]

52. .

:)

[seventhson]

46. I feel like an American soldier in Iraq

and I do not want to be here.

Too many hostiles

no good purpose

the few d3cent folks here are afraid of the hostiles and afraid to come out.

I feel like Skull and Bones is winning this election and the US is becoming hell (or becoming a worse hell)

Thanks for reinforcing my faith in humanity and the notion that progressives and undergrounders had decent hearts as opposed to the fascists and the bonesmen.

Geez.

I believe what I believe. And I work for the good guys.

Kerry is NOT IMHO one of the good guys.

and this thread pretty much supports my view

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. I feel like I have xray vision

I can see right through some things.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. Does This Mean You're Leaving? (eom)

DTH

[WillyBrandt]

51. You feel like an American soldier in Iraq?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. Ooh, Good Point

I wonder how an American soldier in Iraq would feel about that comparison?

DTH

[seventhson]

55. Yeah

this landscape is very hostile.

The Bonesmen are winning.

Maybe I feel more like an Iraqi whse home has been invaded. I don't know.

But it is not pleasant.

I am getting my ass kicked and taking names.

[Bonobo]

57. Good take this name: SkeptyCal! Proud to be on YOUR poop-list!

[WillyBrandt]

You're being shot at? It's 100 degrees?

Some analogies are obscene.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Imagine how we feel hearing that Kerry is part of the BFEE

That he is ONE of them.

Imagine how we felt reading more threads than a google hit could put in one place on an unsubstantiated rumor. Imagine how we felt when we heard that creative name that was vetted for Wesley Clark. Imagine how we feel reading unsubstantiated, unverifiable, paranoid bullshit on John Kerry ad nauseum, and then after one is caught with NO story reading an apology that is good until the next unsubstantiated rumor comes along.

We feel like the McMartin family.

[WillyBrandt]

65. Hear, hear! Perfectly put. READ THE ABOVE POST!

[wyldwolf]

72. It has been indirectly implied John Kerry collaborated in the "murder"

...of Paul Wellstone...

[seventhson]

81. Not by me

[wyldwolf]

103. Like I said, indirectly and yes, by you

Using the same research techniques often employed by those who spread conspiracy theories, I have found this connection:



Here, you claim Kerry is collaborating with the "Bush Family Evil Empire."

Then, in this thread,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=972753

you agree with Jackson Thoreau's analysis that the "Bush Family Evil Empire" had Paul Wellstone murdered.

Now, this "piecing together" of evidence across two postings by you showing your obvious belief that Kerry was working with the BFEE to off Wellstone is at least as credible as any dark and mysterious "Skull and Bones" hypothesis you have presented at DU.

[Bonobo]

109. Wyldwolf, don't even waste your time.

I got 3 warnings already for this idiotic thread. Frankly given some of the posts I saw referenced above, it is a complete waste to spend any time dignifying these with a response.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

63. YOUR Home Has Been Invaded, Huh?

So how does that work? Isn't this our home, too?

DTH

[seventhson]

80. My home was invaded

by threats to me and my wife and children via the internet.

But not on this board.

[salin]

64. I don't know

that I would compare getting hostile replies on a political board is anywhere near in comparison to being placed in life threatening armed hostility.

You have the right to hold such a strong antipathy to a candidate. But those who find those methods of expressing said antipathy to be extreme have the same right to express themselves.

In this particular case, if I recall correctly, you posted a post that claimed that the woman in question had to come out and verify or disclaim the story, and that she had to do it asap before the primaries advanced any further. She, and her family, have done that.

This post (that originated the thread) reads to only partially accept said appology (even though meeting the earlier demand). Is resistance to accepting such a conditional appology even though it reads to fulfill an earlier demand... simply "hostility"... or perhaps is it skepticism (and frustration)?

[seventhson]

83. Judging by the deleted replies I would say there is hostility AND

skepticism and frustration.

That is cool with me.

I invited this response and I expected some hostility. But in order to preserve SOME credibility here I had to openly say that I accept Ms. Polier's statement as a clear denial of all the claims. I said I would do that and I have.

I STILL have my doubts and I said that too.

But I said I would back off on this story - and in the absence of any substantiated compelling evidence to ccontradict her I am backing off.

That is all.

If people want to down me for saying that (or for believing what I believe about Kerry and Skull and the BFEE) then such is life.
Not a big deal.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

73. In Response To Your No. 46, Mr. Son

You state that "this thread pretty much supports my view" as you close, but it is hard to see how that is so, Sir.

The people who bear you hard feelings here are not "hostiles" overwhelming "the few decent folks" and making these "afraid to come out." They are people who have been offended by conduct that they feel does real harm to what they think most important right now, namely the communal effort to evict the criminals of the '00 Coup from office. They do not believe that the leading challenger to the criminals of the '00 Coup today is somehow "really" in cahoots with them, in some kind of shadow play arranged by Hidden Masters, and do not feel there is any shred of evidence you have ever adduced to support your view that he is, but only a constant string of assertions and innuendo that are fundamentally baseless.

My advice to you, Sir, would be to think deeply on this, and the reaction you have received, with your mind open to the possibility there may be something to it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[maxanne]

76. My advice

to you Magistrate is to think deeply on the issue of "mob rule" and the behaviors you are tacitly condoning on this thread.

Florid prose might be another point to ponder.

[arwalden]

87. "Mob Rule"? Oh Good Grief, Maxanne!

I see no victims here. -- A consensus on what constitutes common decency and/or what qualifies as insulting antisocial behavior is hardly what I would consider "mob rule".

I too reserve the right to NOT accept any apology that I feel is not sincere or that is full of holes or that is weak and blame-redirecting. (We've seen them before... those "I'm sorry that YOU were offended" types of apologies... in contrast to a sincere "I'm sorry for my offensive words".)

-- Allen

[maxanne]

89. I respectfully disagree

arwalden.

Seventhson didn't have to make this apology. You are certainly within your rights to refuse it - and you have, quite politely. That's really all that needs to be done. There are people on this thread coming back over and over to taunt Seventhson. That's not civil discourse, that's a gang bang for crying out loud.

[arwalden]

90. Yes I See Those "Deleted Messages" So I Can Only Assume...

... that the mods agreed that they were personal attacks of some sort. I didn't read any of them, so I can offer no opinion on the actual content. I think that those types of messages are not appropriate.

It does stand to reason that responses of this type--regardless if they fall outside the rules--don't occur within a vacuum for absolutely no reason at all. They are a symptom that something else has gone before which set or created the tone.

And based on my recollection the past few days I think that it what we're seeing now is a collective and unanimous and loud "told-you-so" directed toward the purveyors of the lies, the rumor-mongers, the hand-wringers, and the nay-sayers.

Punitive personal attacks are in poor form... but the fact that so many people took issue with (and were vocal about) another member's position was not necessarily a bad thing. The rule-breaking was.

Maybe we've found some common ground. I don't know.

-- Allen

[maxanne]

92. thanks Allen

I appreciate your honesty and civility. My problem with this thread is the lack of civility, as simple as that.

I wasn't aware we lacked common ground ??

[seventhson]

96. And it hurts

But now I know who my friends are

and who they aren't

[The Magistrate]

101. Thank You, Mr. Arwalden

Your comments are very much appreciated, as always, Sir.

Mr. Son's apology here, as evidenced in my No. 22 above, is acceptable to me, and on my part there is no animus against him, but only against the view he expresses, which in my judgement is false to fact and pernicious as a program for action. A person certainly has a right to hold and express whatever view they please, but that right does not convey any obligation on others that they agree a person's views are wise or correct, nor obligate any other person to refrain from active opposition to those views. It may at times be the case that a person who stands alone against the crowd is correct, but it is certain that is not always, or even in the great majority of instances, the case. Such a widespread opposition ought, in my view, to at least serve as an occassion for a person to examine closely what he is doing, with an open mind to the possiblity of error on his part, and it does not to me seem either offensive, or an endorsement of mob, to suggest such a course.

[maxanne]

105. my,

what a selective response. A shame you neglected to follow the dialogue to it's conclusion.

[The Magistrate]

107. Your Point Has Gone Right Over My Head, Ma'am

Is it your purpose to debate the appropriateness of dependent clauses?

[maxanne]

108. try reading

the following posts:

73, 76,87,89, 90,92,96,101,105, and 107. Reading the full sequence should eradicate your confusion.

[The Magistrate]

111. Again, Ma'am, Your Point Is Unclear

Matters which seem of interest are replied to; matters which strike me as of no moment are left aside.

We are each free to respond or no to one another as we please....

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

115. One Person's Obfuscation, Ma'am

Is another's clarity and precision.

These little differences are an inescapable part of the human condition....

[maxanne]

117. much like

florid prose.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

121. So Your Quarrel Is With Vocabulary And Grammar, Then, Ma'am?

Hardly worth my time, and unlikely to prove amusing....

"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between a lightening bug and lightening."

[Forkboy]

119. Seems pretty clear to me

:shrug:

[nolabels]

49. Did seventhson do something wrong? you people sound so vicious

I sometimes wish others could post like seventhson, loose cannons keep other people on their toes ;-)

P.S.Don't worry seventhson there is no way you can get everybody in the world to hate you (* is trying really hard though)

[wyldwolf]

54. I've objected to several unsourced accusations against dems..

...in the past.

[BootinUp]

56. oh dear, tears in mine eyes

[nolabels]

67. Whooo, that would be worse than being in bed with Satan himself

Sorry, I guess it goes back to the old adage about giving someone enough rope :wow:

P.S. seventhson don't get too worked up about it, most of the people in the world are not really that evil, it's just a lot of them guy's hanging around *. Get a grip man, we will shoe horn that fool * out, one way or another.

[seventhson]

77. I Happen to believe that

a man who takes an oath of allegiance to any secret order ""so secret that I can't talk about it" (Bush quote on Meet the Press last week) - IS a BFEE collaborator. I say that in defense of the post I am responding to. I said it and I believe it (and I believe it may have been deleted - so I guess you must have took a picture of it for all of our benefit. Thanks)

That is my opinion. That is what I believe.

I have done political research on this subject for close to thirty years. I have endured death threats from the extreme right spooks and I KNOW some of these people.

Whatever you believe is unimportant to me. I believe what I believe and I express it here as well as I can.


When I say that the BFEE and the Skulls are part of an organized whole socipolitical and financical criminal enterprise - you can take it or leave it. I do not care.

Many people on this board agree with me so I am not afraid of a few who will insult and criticize me for my beliefs.

Time will tell what good these Bonesmen will do for us.

I have suspected for some time that Bush wants a vacatiuon anyway and will be happy to let his fellow Boinsman take the reins of power. It makes the process look like it works.

Konrad Heiden ssaud (in "Der Fuehrer" - Houghton-Mifflin 1945) that Fascism depends on the comfort of the majority in a democracy in order for it to succeed. Having a "liberal dem" boosts our comfort level. But I believe that American Imperialism/fascism will continue no matter which Bonesman wins.

It will be worse under Bush no doubt - because they will have a popular, if fictional, "mandate" for their crimes (we will be like the citizens of Rome dying for Nero).

But I do not believe things will change very much under a Kerry presidency. I agree that MANY Lives will be saved as opposed to Bush and that disaster environmentally MAY be stalled off a few more years (but probably not decades ort centuries which is necessary to avert global catastrophe)

I , in fact, am compiling my list of reasons that I could vote for Kerry, as distasteful as that is to me.

#1 is Bush. He MUST be defeated.

#2 is Kerry SAYS much of what I agree with on the issues.

I still have vain hopes for Dean or Edwards. I still have hope that the Bonesman from Mass will falter and fail in the primaries.

But, as with the decline of Gore - I am seeing that that hope is a slim one.

So I swallow my bile and move on with Kerry if that is what is to be.

That was the point of this thread originally.

And I wanted to clearly say that I would back off. I was lied to by SOMEBODY and I do not know who -- but Ms. Polier has clearly denied it and unless there is proof she is lying then I haver to accept it (whether I believe her or not).

Let's move on.

By the way - on the Iraq analogy: I have repeatedly received death and other threats on the boards for my exposure of the Bush-Nazi-Skull/Bones which have been reported to the proper authorities.

To get attacked here by purported Dems for adnitting I was fooled by a lie for which it was alleged solid evidence existed - feels like dirty tricks targeting me of the same skully variety.

I have worked with and researched the leaders of the resistance movement in Europe (the anifascist resistance). I am friends with some of them. There were many many collaborators with the extreme right who professed liberal and progressive credentials. It is a dirty business.

I think Skull is the dirtiest.

You can ridifule me or harass me or call me paranoid for my beliefs -

but rest assured it is an informed and educated belief.

If Kerry is the Nominee I want Bush to lose.

But my opinion about Kerry will not likely change even if I have to vote for him to defeat Bush.

I HOPE I am wrong about Kerry.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

79. I respect your honesty

in expressing your opinion even if I don't share your misgivings of Kerry. But the fact you will (as you say and I will take your word on it) not fuel the rumor mill on this issue makes me accept your attempt.

[seventhson]

82. Thanks

Only time will tell if I am right or wrong.

I have no intention of trying to sabotage Kerry if he is the Nominee. My goal has always been to keep him from being the nominee or the VP and it looks like I have lost in that effort.

[wyldwolf]

104. You must also believe Kerry was in on Wellstone's "murder"

Using the same research techniques often employed by those who spread conspiracy theories, I have found this connection:



Here, you claim Kerry is collaborating with the "Bush Family Evil Empire."

Then, in this thread,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=972753

you agree with Jackson Thoreau's analysis that the "Bush Family Evil Empire" had Paul Wellstone murdered.

Now, this "piecing together" of evidence across two postings by you showing your obvious belief that Kerry was working with the BFEE to off Wellstone is at least as credible as any dark and mysterious "Skull and Bones" hypothesis you have presented at DU.

[seventhson]

127. Maybe so

nt

[saracat]

112. My Beliefs

I believe that we are participating in an actual primary in which we are to pick the next Democratic President of the United States. I believe that I also have an educated opinion regarding S and B , and the Bush Family, and for personal reasons , am probably more familiar with them than you are.
I believe the the sort of rhetoric which is being spewed regarding this topic is merely an obfuscation causing us to lose sight of our real goal ,which is to unseat Bush. This is no time for us to engage in hypothetical war games with an imaginary opponent, particularly when we are supposed to be on the same side.
I believe that this is an waste of time.
I believe that your apology was only another opportunity for you to reference slander. John Kerry is probably the only candidate who can win ,and attempts are being made to discredit him by people wishing to appear more knowledgeable than they are.These are my beliefs and they are "informed and educated!"

[kiahzero]

123. I need some advice

My girlfriend is in a sorority. She's not allowed to tell me some of what goes on. I, following your logic, assumed she will eventually rise to try and take over the world.

I don't know how to break up with her without getting killed by the Hidden Masters. What do I do?

</sarcasm>

[MoonRiver]

59. I'm trying hard to graciously accept your explanation.

But you're not really offering an apology, and in fact still imply that Kerry remains guilty until proven innocent! So, a comradly hug from moi just isn't possible tonight. I'll simply say thanks for seeming to have a somewhat more open mind about the situation. :thumbsup:

[seaglass]

71. Although this doesn't really sound like an apology, I'll

give you half credit for points 1., 6., and 8.:-)

[mmonk]

75. thanks seventhson

:toast:

[seventhson]

88. THANKS BACK

I expected some flaming but not a lynching.

I am at least consistent. I do not want Kerry as our President.

I do not trust him.

But I want Bush OUT of the White House Now.

Let's see what today brings in Wisconsin and then in Vermont Dean will let us know.

[nolabels]

94. Here, let me help you with the rope

It is a figure of speech that was used nothing more, some people like being cute, nothing to it, really.

seventhson many of the things that could be the worst thing to happen keep on happening. I don't think there is much anyone, as a person, can do about it. The best way to change people or the things you might not like about them, if to give them your support, your heart, if you will.

How much more worse it would be, if we all had to do it alone. You can always chose your enemies, but you're not always able to chose your Friends.

One of the best friends I ever had, I met after he jumped me at the end of a day in middle school. We fought and fought,he got the best of me but I didn't quit,I kept going after him. The rest of the people pushed me away. So I just went home. Later he felt bad for some reason, came over to my house with another bud and we all became good friends, and it was something that held through thick and thin.

We don't always change people in ways we can see, but being able to identify and understand them is crucial for both sides. Common sense tells you don't make friends with a black widow or a wild rattle snake
but a king snake or a small stick will take care of them. The most important thing is knowing what they are. The reasons of how and why they live. The foremost important thing is the knowledge of what one is looking at, mostly anything can be solved after that.

A lot of people here have identified many things. Some seem to think we have found everything out, then some seem to think we have just started to scratch the surface. Some want to lance the boil, some are afraid of the pain. Two weeks and the "W"'s pasted to the doors was enough for me, yet as we can one must be ready for what ever comes.

The Rolling Stones said it quite well, when they wrote "You can't always get what you want"

[Cocoa]

93. apology not accepted

[seventhson]

95. Cool

You do not HAVE to accept my apology, It is a "qualified" apology and as a Kerry supporter I expect you to stand by your man.

I can't stand by your man.

I may vote for him in November if I absolutely have to , but until then I am still behind the three other serious candidates: Dean, Edwards and DK

[lurk_no_more]

97. Wow, that was really heartfelt

But then again I expected no more, insincere conditional apologies are not accepted.



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Nicholas_J]

98. Perhaps

THe next time such attacks come, you will consider the source, and then consider the sources that are backing up the allegations. When It became clear that the only sources that were backing up drudge were oversaes Murdoch rags, and that even Murdoch media in the U.S. were not touching it, that was a clear sign that it was a made up political smear. I can easily forgive a one time case of being fooled, especially when Murdoch has layer upon layer of attempts to cover ownership, but after the first even I am less likely to be forgiving.

All this is indicative of is how scared people like Murdoch are of a Kerry win, and it would be an advantage to have the Murdoch attempt stick to Bush, for the Democrats.

[seventhson]

122. I respectfully disagree

I made the poor assumption that there was some evidence to back up the claims. The claims were too specific in my opinion to qualify as "just rumor". If they were outright lies (which remains to be seen but appears more likely than before the events leading to this "apology") then I was taken in by them.

It was wishful thinking on my part facilitated by specific claims which seemed plausible and even pretty possible to me.

The claim that Clark was a source (which was confirmed by Oliphant's column today) and that the parents said there was "something" going on with Kerry and their daughter (which has not been recanted) led me to conclude there was some "there" there.

The fact that there is an admission now that she had a relationship with Kerry's finance chairman makes the story more , well, "interesting" (if that is true and apparently it has been acknowledged by Kerry's camp)

I still think that there may be something there. But I have no idea what is really there now.

[Bonobo]

99. This is just a vanity post.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bonobo]

110. Yeah, it's like looking at a car wreck...

I can't turn away, somehow.

[maxanne]

113. is this something

to be proud of?

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tameszu]

100. I am not a Kerry person (yet), so I don't need an apology from you

over this.

What I would rather get from you is a rethinking on your part of how you evaluate claims, as well as ideas about standards of evidence and so on. My issue with you and many of your posts is that they are representative of a mindset on DU (the "LIHOP" mindset) who sees the world in a light that makes reasoned discourse difficult. It's that you always need to go after that little hidden extra theory, even if the probability of its truth is very low.

If I sound a little irritated, it's because Clark supporters had to endure post after post by you and similar folk from dubious sources like CounterPunch, Emperor's New Clothes, and even racist Serb nationalist groups. Even though I don't support Kerry, I'm not too thrilled to see you hit him with similar stuff.

As an addendum, I am sick of discussing Skull and Bones instead of the "in plain sight" lies and injustices that those who have power--both Democrats and Republicans, although more of the latter--perpetuate everyday. I have to say, as someone who is quite familiar with Yale, it is absolutely senseless to attack S&B as some super secret organization out to rule the world, considering the extremely elitist system we foster in America (1) gives such a huge edge to Yale other graduates at all, and (2) makes it much easier for one class to get into Yale. A silly, quasi-intellectual, quasi-secret senior club that adds a touch more elitism on top of that is of little marginal concern. I just don't understand how you could spend so much energy poking around for some secret plot that's probably not there when what's in plain sight already poses serious moral problems. It's like insinuating that Genghis Kahn doesn't really wash his hands when he goes to the bathroom or has a secret mistress--who cares, when it's that he razes entire villages. Sheesh.

[Catholic Sensation]

102. Same criticism for you as I have for Drudge

Now that the story seems totally false, YOU don't want to look wrong, so you apologize for being "fooled" by a conservative hitman, but not for being wrong. Drudge is blaming Wesley Clark for the whole incident, trying to pass the buck as well.

#3 should read like this:

3) If there are no tapes and no letters and no credible friends then Drudge has been discredited beyong repair (which is not such a bad thing under the circumstances). ALL of the other media who reported "facts" also have been hurt. My own credibility will be hurt, because instead of reading the "facts" I went with my anti-S&B feelings, and continuously pursued a story that the vast majority of people DIDN'T believe due to LACK OF EVIDENCE.

Putting caveats in your apology shows just how much more insincere you are in wanting to apologize than in wanting to blast John Kerry's campaign.

[0rganism]

120. Remember, people: forgiveness lifts your own burden of resentment

Sure, there's bound to be some with long-standing gripes about seventhson's attitude towards Mr. Kerry and post content reflecting that attitude, but he's not asking you to forget about all that, just to forgive him.

Forgiving someone doesn't mean you trust them, or you like them, or you agree with them. It's an opportunity to relieve yourself of hostility, of the feeling that someone owes you payment on a debt, of the need to hold someone liable for not living up to your standards of behavior. Consider what your real complaints against seventhson are, and decide for yourself if your remaining lifespan is long enough to merit holding a grudge against him.

For that matter, I, too, doubted John Kerry's fidelity. I, too, thought this tabloid lie-fest would grow to become a genuine full-blown media lynching in June. I, too, gave greater credence to the allegation than was warranted. I was incorrect, I made a mistake. Please forgive me.

[seventhson]

124. Gee thanks Organism

But I will be honest:

I am NOT asking for forgiveness. But I WAS doing an act of contrition and making an honest effort to do what I had said I would do: Back off of the story.

I also gave some PROPS to the IDEA of a Kerry candidacy against Bush.

If nothing else I had hoped that folks who were pissed at me would accept the fact that I seriously feel that Kerry BENEFITS from the slamming down of this story and rumor.

That it makes Kerry stronger and that is a good thing with respect to defeating Bush.

Some may disagree and say that no matter what the story hurts US because it helps Bush.

But the discrediting of the story makes the BFEE look bad. Look worse than they already do.

And I think that helps all of us.

[0rganism]

125. Any apology includes an implicit plea for forgiveness

or it is no apology at all. Let's Ask Mr. Webster:

apology n... 2. an acknowledgement of some fault, injury, insult, etc., with an expression of regret and a plea for pardon.
(Websters New World Dictionary, 3rd college edition)

This isn't a pick-and-choose situation. In order to apologize properly, we do 3 things.
1) admit we were incorrect (you did this)
2) regret the error (you did this too, conditionally)
3) ask forgiveness from those you offended (you withhold this, for some reason)

If you aren't asking for forgiveness, you do every one of the Kerry supporters a disservice by omission. Forgiveness is not primarily for your own benefit, it's for theirs. Think about it. By inviting others to relieve themselves of their grudges, you do THEM a huge favor. It helps everyone involved get rid of the effects of negative thinking, heals wounds, and hurts no one at all.

I've made the same mistake about apologies you have, believe me, for over 30 years. I thought that an apology only consisted of the first two, and the third item was up to the other party entirely. Then I looked up the word. Know what? I think our whole society could benefit from looking up this word, because we're not alone in having forgotten to ask for a pardon. There are a lot of folks who live their whole lives with a chip or two on their shoulders; if only someone had asked their forgiveness, perhaps they would be happier and nicer to everyone they meet.

[seventhson]

126. Well - I'm sorry

I get your point but I am not going to ask for "forgiveness" or expect it.

It is a position full of grace and compassion.

However, apologies do not require an imploring for forgiveness/

Let's check out the root of the word:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/97/A0369700.html


Literally an apology is an "out" speech.

Apo is Greek prefix for "out" and Logos is either words or "speech"

It is a way to try to talk your way out of (or to defend) a word or an action.

There IS an inference of an effort to gain forgiveness or forebearance or understanding (which I was trying to do). It IS an effort to explain or try to excuse an action or word so as to gain acceptance.

But it does NOR require a request for forgiveness. A rerquest for understanding is sufficient to meet the definition.

HEY - I am very cool with the concept of the need for forgiveness and the need to ask for it under certain circumstances.

But I prefer understanding of my perspective to forgiveness. I doubt if I will get either from many here. I think my obligation is to acknowledge that I am sorry for being fooled and I am backing off as a result.

I think it ultimately is good for Kerry that this thing happened.

It may help us to beat Bush too.

But I think my statement is not a requerst for forgiveness nor does saying I am sorry imply that I want anyone to forgive me.

Challenge me! Challenge Kerry!

Challenge yourselves!

Challenge the status quo!

Whether anyone forgives ME or not that is what I want. A thinking group of activists who challenge each other to do and get better government.

Kerry sucks IMHO. For saying that I am not sorry.

But he better be better than Bush.

[Zomby Woof]

128. that is much clearer to me now

[Maddy McCall]

129. How can you be sorry but not ask for forgiveness?

??????

[seventhson]

130. Because being sorry oneself does NOT require anyone else to do anything

We did discuss the semantics pf "apology"

I said I was sorry.

I am noit asking anyone to forgive me.

By at least one definition an apology is a "defense" of a position.

By defending what I did (on the grounds that I believed what may very well be a total lie and I relied on notoriously unreliable sources which claimed they had solid evidence of the truth) I EXPECT that many here - mostly the vehement Kerry supporters - will not forgive me.

I am not asking them to forgive me. I am just saying I am sorry that I was taken in by the lies and that I will stick to my promise to back off. If you want to excuse this possible lapse and forgive me, fine.

But I am not asking anyone to. I am defending or explaining my position in hopes that others understand it - not fogive it.

It is like the difference between an "excuse" for something and an explanation for it.


"Excuse" means you want others to forgive you.

"Explain" means you want people to understand you.

I expect neither forgiveness nor understanding from many here.

But I do anticipate I will get some understanding and even forgiveness from many here as well. Especially those who agree with me and who still don't like or trust Kerry whether he lied and cheated to us or not about this alleged affair.