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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 10:39 PM
Original message
Reparations
By David Swanson

When a Member of Congress wants to push an agenda forward, even one supported by very few other Congress Members, he or she will introduce or sign onto a bill and urge others to do the same. Almost every Congress Member is willing to do this sort of thing, often on very controversial issues. But when a Member of Congress wants to oppose an agenda without explaining why, he or she will tell you "I can't sign onto that because we don't have the votes." In addition to the inconsistency, another problem with this excuse is that there are many examples of Congress finding the necessary votes as a result of a small group of Congress Members pushing an agenda forward.

"In January of 1989," Congressman John Conyers writes on his website, "I first introduced the bill H.R. 40, Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African Americans Act. I have re-introduced HR 40 every Congress since 1989, and will continue to do so until it's passed into law." This is the appropriate position and behavior for Conyers or any other Congress Member to take on this or any other important matter of social justice. One day, Conyers and others may succeed. And by putting their names on a bill, they make clear to citizens which other congress members are failing to take the same position.

On the question of impeaching Vice President Dick Cheney, however, Conyers takes a very different tack. He has published a book documenting the crimes of Cheney and Bush, but when it comes to supporting a bill, Conyers offers the "we don't have the votes" excuse.

This would be aggravating enough on its own. The aggravation is added to when some badly confused individuals denounce those lobbying Conyers on this issue (or at least those doing so who are white) precisely on the grounds that Conyers supports reparations for slavery. Of course he does! Conyers supports single-payer health care. Conyers supports the right to organize a union. Conyers supports all sorts of good things. But none of those things qualify him to take the wrong position on impeachment and not be criticized or protested for it.

Of those who protested Conyers at his office last week, most if not every single individual including the white ones support reparations for slavery. I've publicly supported and written about that project for years. For years I had a big link on my website to an activist campaign for reparations. In January 2005, I wrote an obituary for James Forman < http://davidswanson.org/node/242 > in which I said:

"In 1969 he carried impoliteness so far as to disrupt a service at Riverside Church in New York to demand that white churches pay $500 million in reparations to African-Americans. If the movement for reparations ever succeeds, Forman may be honored as one of its pioneers. Until then, he's known - where he's known at all - as someone who pushed for a change that has not yet come (and must therefore be ridiculed or attacked). We forget how many things he pushed for that are now taken for granted."

My point was not just that efforts like those made by John Conyers year after year may someday cease to be mocked and instead be honored. The larger point I was making was that Forman was willing to challenge even his allies when they were wrong, and to do so in ways that were deemed impolite and inappropriate. Why go to a liberal bunch of pro-integration church-goers, some of whom were no doubt funding and participating in important work, and disrupt their religious service to propose a project for which everyone knew we did not "have the votes"? The answer, of course, is that justice is more important than decorum, damaged lives more significant than hurt feelings.

In April 2007 I gave a speech in Portland, Maine, < http://davidswanson.org/node/803 > in which I said: "I spoke earlier today at Faneuil Hall, where men like Wendell Phillips led a movement to abolish slavery, something the wise and knowing of that day said could not be done. Those abolitionists made their movement a fight for freedom of the press. And make no mistake: our struggle is the same."

The struggle for the impeachment of Cheney and Bush is not in opposition to the struggle for justice from slavery. It is inspired and informed by the anti-slavery movement. Reparations for the horrors of slavery must come, no matter how many years later.

So too, must reparation for the crimes of today. We have killed nearly a million Iraqis, driven another 2 million from their homes, and caused yet another 2 million to flee their country all together. We have severely damaged the lives of every resident of that nation. At the same time, we have abandoned the people of New Orleans, many to their deaths. And, worldwide, our nation's policies are leading the exacerbation of global warming, resulting already in hundreds of thousands of deaths.

The time for reparations for today's crimes will come. Those crimes include the use of slave labor in the construction of the US embassy in Baghdad. Now is the time to end those crimes, to put a stop to the suffering they are causing.

There is an urgent moral demand to put a halt to the destruction. Then the cleanup can begin. And it must include the establishment of new standards for future behavior, a whole new direction for our nation based on setting right our past abuses. The abuses we set straight must include the slaughter of the Native Americans, and must above all include slavery.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good post....
Edited on Sat Jul-28-07 10:56 PM by jaysunb
k&r

on edit

I hope you have flame retardant....there are lots of "liberals" that still don't get it. :evilgrin:
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. yes, sir....
"And it must include the establishment of new standards for future behavior, a whole new direction for our nation based on setting right our past abuses. The abuses we set straight must include the slaughter of the Native Americans, and must above all include slavery."

....and the sooner, the better....
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
69. America's 'peculiar institution
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 03:10 PM by flashl
No system of slavery in the world equates to the peculiar institution that exist in the U.S.

Today, the U.S. economy relies heavily on its prison industrial complex. And, guess who is disproportionately entangled in the criminal justice system? Is it not the same injustice reported in a recent WSJ article, Slavery In All But Name?

The raw material of the prison industrial complex is its inmates, mainly black inmates. Prison labor is like a pot of gold. No strikes. No unions. No unemployment insurance or industrial injury payments. No language problem unlike investing abroad.

Dont want to pay for reparation? What about the $35 billion spent each year on corrections? As taxpayers bear the burden of $35 billion for the prison industrial complex, the prison industry directly competes with PRIVATE industry with labor costs where inmates earn between 30 and 95 cents per hour. Slave labor in prisons today is once again done with the government's collusion. Where is the MORAL outrage?

Leviathan prisons are being built with factories hidden behind walls as prison inmates make office furniture, limousines, clothing & textiles, computer circuit boards, waterbeds, lingerie for Victoria's Secret's and they man airport travel-booking call-centers and perform data entry for Chevron. Now, we defend another peculiar institution in the name of 'justice'. Tell me again, WHEN exactly did 'slavery in all but name' end?

In June 2005, One-hundred and five years after the first anti-lynching bill was proposed by a black congressman, senators approved by a voice vote a resolution to apologize to lynching victims, survivors and their descendants.

I meant to post to original.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. My Ancestors Wronged Their Ancestors
Edited on Sat Jul-28-07 11:35 PM by PoconoPragmatist
Why the hell should I be penalized for it?

This government already won't stand up for MY people...and I think WE deserve reparations, too, for the discrimination we GLBT folk have faced in the workforce...and in unequal rights, etc etc.

No African American now living was ever a slave...and no white now living was ever a slaveowner. Why the hell should I have to pay for the wrongs of my ancestors?

Aren't we all so lucky that we could choose our heritage, our parents...and we were able to control (and thus be held accountable for) the actions of our ancestors...which took place before we were ever born!

Scream at me if you will, vilify my name, and tell me I don't have the right to call myself a liberal, because I won't march in lockstep on this one. That's fine. But I am firmly against this. I'm sick and tired of always being the demonized one who pays for everyone else's good fortunes, while my own fortunes sink like a pair of cement shoes!

I don't mind others doing well...just not always at my expense, okay? Does that make me a rotten person?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
50. I couldn't agree more - nicely said...
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
67. Screw this modern stuff, I want to sue the Normans and the Babylonians
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
71. "Why the hell should I be penalized for it?"
Uh, because if you are white and male you are STILL unfairly benefiting from past centuries of discrimination and slavery...
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Uh, Wrong
I am transgender. I am NOT male. I'm female. Shock, gasp...I actually voluntaily surrendered my MALE PRIVILEGE.

And I'm not benefitting, fairly or unfairly...from jack shit.

If I'm benefitting so much, then why am I two years unemployed, and forced to move back home with Mommy at the age of 34?

Know the facts, first.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #80
108. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Private Reply To This Post
Suffice to say I do not feel the personal attack is justified. You may hold whatever opinion you wish...and express it. That is your right.

It is NOT your right to hurl personal insults or attacks at people who happen to hold an opposite view.

You do not strengthen your case by doing so.

Good day.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. I just call it like I see it.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #111
118. Well Again....
You see whatever you wish to see. you do NOT have the right to hurl personal insults, just because someone does not share your point of view. I do not have to take this garbage from you, and I won't.

Could it be that you have resorted to personal attacks (and I have not) because you know that your position is actually indefensible...and because you do not want to deal with the issues I bring up, because they are too inconvenient to your case?

So much easier to hurl invective and personal attacks in an attempt to smear others whose message you do not like....than to try to deal with the message.

Basically, you have just said...."Do not confuse me with facts."
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
105. the "white privledge" argument is far from universally accepted
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. Exactly!!
Especially since any "white privilege" I might have is negated by my transgender status.

If I'm the beneficiary of such privilege, why am I 2 years unemployed and living at home with Mommy, so that I don't have to live under a bridge in a cardboard box?

If I'm the beneficiary of such privilege, then why have I never once in my life been promoted...and never made more than $24,000 in any year, ever?

Gee, I'm making out like a bandit on this "white privilege" thing, aren't I?
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. by whom?
white people?
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #112
120. Well, If You Bothered To Read The Thread
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 10:05 PM by PoconoPragmatist
You would know there is at least one Puerto Rican of African descent who likewise feels reparations are not necessary.

So it's not just white people, stimbox. But that's another inconvenient fact I should not confuse you with, isn't it?

Makes it so much easier to make your case when you can hurl the "racist" insult at anyone who doesn't support your position, doesn't it?

But it doesn't work anymore if someone like the person I mentioned asbove ALSO does not support your position.

Are you uncomfortable yet? Do you want me to stop confusing you with uncomfortable facts yet?

P.S. On Edit...read posts #6 and 33.
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stimbox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. oooh 1 person of color agrees with you!
So that somehow validates your position?

Ok whatever.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #112
136. vast majority of whites, and most younger people from what I have read
Its a real devisive topic at DU too.
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lostinacause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Any money that would be put toward reperations would be better spent
on solving the current issues of the people of the race in question. Instead of giving people money, invest in education and skill development and policies that reduce crime, drug abuse, and poverty.

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LBJDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I completely agree nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yes, justice IS more important than decorum
Now how do we convince the American people?
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. No reparations. History is what it is- we can only try to learn from it.
Nobody today is to blame for the suffering of my ancestors.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Thanks! I Thought I'd Need Kevlar For Saying The Same Thing Up Above!!
Nice to see another here agree with me. And, better yet, this time, obviously an African-American, based on the context of what you wrote.

You are exactly right...My ancestors wronged your ancestors. That sucks. Now we can move on and learn from it. You never suffered slavery. I never imposed it. Why the hell should I suffer for actions I could not control or prevent?
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. I'm Puerto Rican of African descent.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
113. Well, Nice To Know You!!
And I'm glad you are here on DU! Here's hoping we get to discuss many issues together...both issues we agree on, and issues we may disagree on. I can respect the opinion of one who differs from me, when they express it in an articulte, professional manner, and do not resort to hurling personal insults...unlike some I could mention....
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. A 1st step would be ending widespread CELEBRATION of the holocaust of slavery
that destroyed hundreds of millions of lives and continues to damage tens of millions more. Continued white celebration of slavery and its extension into Jim Crow and institutional racism is the "elephant in the room" in US politics, the source of Republican electoral dominance in the South since Nixon devised his "Southern Strategy".

Go to any other country with a history of slavery, and you will find many lavishly-appointed museums of slavery, used mainly to teach schoolchildren about the horrors of slavery and racism. How many Americans know that an early President of the American Medical Association, along with dozens of other doctors from the antebellum South, made Josef Mengele look like Albert Schweitzer? Harriet Washington's new book, Medical Apartheid (see http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=7904&Secti... ), not only discloses hundreds of racist medical atrocities in US history, but but also discusses her extreme difficulty in accessing evidence of these crimes. Like most records of current-day banks that financed purchases of slaves, and many other historical artifacts the vast majority of Americans have no idea exist, records of racist medical atrocities are in the custody of PR flacks worried about the "public images" of their professions.

Why is there no Museum of Slavery and Racism on the mall in Washington? See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/20... : "Deep South slave shrine stirs old hatreds. Last Updated: 25/10/2003

The branding iron was made to last, its handle burnished by frequent use, its head a simple hand-forged "S", pressed, red-hot, countless times to human skin. Next to it, in the stifling back room of a Mississippi bank, lay a coiled whip, crafted with care, its woven leather still supple after a century in an attic. In a happier world, these objects would have lost their power of terror. They would no longer provoke anyone to murderous hate. But they do. The whip and branding iron belong to Jim and Mary Anne Petty, amateur historians from the seaside resort of Gulfport, Mississippi. They are among the rarest pieces from their unique collection of slavery artefacts, gathered from collectors and private houses across the rural South.

The Pettys want their collection - now 25,000 pieces strong - to form a museum of slavery. No American institution has anything like their collection, and they have received several offers. But to date, each time a deal has been near, nervous politicians have blinked. White supremacist groups have made their anger plain, sending hate mail to the Pettys, and accusing them of faking their artefacts. Bottles have been hurled at their home. For the moment, they stage travelling exhibitions and visit schools willing to host them. They find children horrified by the whips and brands, but baffled by such items as their tiny "Negro shoes" - wooden-soled leather boots for a house slave, of perhaps three or four years old. "Were children slaves?" one black pupil asked recently. "The children have no idea of their history - white or black," Mr Petty said. "They say, 'I'd never let that happen to me'. We have to explain to them the system was imposed by force."

Such ignorance is no accident, Mr Petty says. State schools skirt gingerly around the dark history of the South, fearing the wrath of groups established to defend "southern heritage", such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans or the League of the South. To Howard Jones, a history professor at the University of Alabama, the Pettys must succeed in their quest to build the Middle Passage Museum, as they call their project. "I honestly believe this is the only collection of its kind," said Dr Jones, whose book Mutiny on the Amistad was adapted for the cinema by Steven Spielberg. "In order to heal, you have to be forced to look at what slavery was like. There are people still trying to hang on to that whole romanticised Gone With the Wind version of the South. They have to face their history." Dr Jones would like to see the museum set up in the South. "That's going to take someone mighty brave, even prepared to cost themselves a political career."

Rip Daniels, a businessman and broadcaster and the Pettys' most prominent black backer, fears the costs for the couple could be still higher. "What Jim has here is heresy," he said. "These objects show that African Americans did not acquiesce, that they did not submit graciously."

Mr Daniels, who owns a local radio station and is one of its presenters, believes that defiant white Southerners are increasingly denying the reality of slavery. "When you talk to the Sons of Confederate Veterans, they don't talk about actual historical events, they talk of the 'southern gentleman', of how he must have been." To Mr Daniels, whites have two choices. "They can justify their ancestors, or they can accept that they participated in a horrible episode of American history" he said. "As an African-American, I have to accept that some of my ancestors were in chains." Rip Daniels has received death threats himself, including a postcard of a lynching, with the message, "You're next". "There are people who take it upon themselves to be the curators of the Caucasian male ego," he said. "These are people who would plot Jim's demise...."
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
73. That's the way!
That's the reasoning that led to Dred Scott, Plessy and lock 'em all up, take away their vote and throw away the key.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. Is it our duty to produce justice?
Duty seems to me to be the only theme that wouldn't be criticized by the haters. There's always an opportunity to attack the fairness of any proposed solutions. But can they honesty deny that there is a duty to try and correct an injustice?

If done tactfully, without needlessly shaming anyone, I think people can be convinced they have a duty to provide justice. A duty to preserve the environment. A duty to give a helping hand to people who have been historically oppressed.

Perhaps if they felt a duty to hate the real bad guys we'd be all set. They seem perfectly willing to hate fictitious bad guys.

I've been told that there is no word for 'charity' in the ancient Hebrew language. The word they used instead was 'justice'. I don't know if this is true or not, but I like the idea a lot. Land owners would not harvest deeply into the corners of their fields, in order to provide 'justice' for the have-nots, who would come in after the harvest and glean the fields. Justice.

I do love the sound of that last part. Maybe someone can tell me if it's true.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. No one alive was a slave or slave owner...no *justice* is possible or reparations needed
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I don't understand why justice isn't possible.
Is it because everyone is dead?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Indeed...
Justice is for the living...damages/repartions are for thier decendants/estate.

It really is an unsolvable problem:
- who would be due them
- what amount
- what standard of proof


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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
90. Yes. Everyone's dead.
No justice is possible.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. No one alive today fought in the Revolution, but folks sure love to celebrate the 4th of July
We love to take credit for the good things our forefathers did and assume they somehow mean that we are a good and great people, as if a supposedly noble history instills some special nobility in us today. But you can't have one without the other. Just as we like to celebrate the admirable aspects of our history - and certainly don't run away from or disclaim them because we didn't personally do them or, in fact, weren't anywhere near them when they occurred - we also have to accept responsibility for the bad that they did.

We also consistently fail to recognize the benefits conferred upon many in this country as a direct result of slavery - there seems to be a sense of entitlement among those who so benefited - as if the status quo of privilege is fine and dandy and can't be tampered with in any way, regardless how it came about.

Reparations were wrongly denied for decades - and now that the issue is coming up again, blacks are told: "hey, get over it - we blocked and stalled and stole reparations all these years, so now it's too late to do them."

Frankly, it reminds me of the Republican approach to things - they stall and divert attention away from their wrongdoing with all manner of tactics, such as "now is not the time to get into it - the case is still in the courts or there's a war going on or we need to focus on certifying the vote count." But as soon as the condition precedent they claim must occur before addressing the issue occurs, they then insist "it's over now - let's move on - why belabor the issue at this point?"

I don't know if reparations are appropriate. But I don't buy the "I didn't own slaves so why should I give up anything now?" or "it's too late, get over it" excuses.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. I Call Bullshit!!
"Just as we like to celebrate the admirable aspects of our history - and certainly don't run away from or disclaim them because we didn't personally do them or, in fact, weren't anywhere near them when they occurred - we also have to accept responsibility for the bad that they did."

Bullshit!!

When I celebrate the 4th of July, I celebrate admirable aspects of our history. I recognize what those who came before me gave, so that I might be "free" (yeah, right)
At any rate, I do not, in any way, benefit...financially or otherwise...from celebrating July 4.

I do not forget the less admirable aspects of our history. I am not entitled to accept the credit for what my forefathers did, and I'm no better than anyone else, just because I'm an American, and my ancestors did great things (and some shitty things, too) Nor should I be obligated to accept responsibility for things which I personally did not do...and had no way to stop or control.

Why the fuck should I now be penalized by extra taxes, and by opportunities now being directed away from me...when I, personally did nothing to cause harm to others? I never owned a slave. No one in this country alive today was ever a slave. so why the fuck should they now benefit at my expense?

I did nothing to warrant or deserve being punished.
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Clarify the use of the word "they" be specific.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
81. Do You Really Want That?
Fine. I'm not afraid to stand behind my words, or their meaning....

"so why the fuck should they now benefit at my expense?"

Translation (for those too soft-brasined to get it: So why the fuck should modern-day African-Americans...who did not suffer slavery...benefit from wrongs done to their ancestors, at the hands of my ancestors. and why should I pay for the crimes of my ancestors...crimes I did not commit, could not control or prevent, and did not benefit from?

This is akin to throwing me in jail because my great-grandfather robbed a bank 95 years ago, and was never caught or forced to serve jail time. You would be holding me accountable for his crime.

In much the say way, reparationists are suggesting I should be held accountable for crimes I did not commit, could not control or prevent, and from which I did not benefit.

Besides...since when did two wrongs ever make a right? slavery was wrong. Holding someone accountable for a crime they did not commit is also wrong.

and it is stuff like this that keeps racism alive. Take Affirmative Action. If I were a white man (I'm not, as I'm female) but, nevertheless...if I were a white man...and lost out on a job to a black man who was less qualified than me...solely because he was black...this would cause me to become very embittered towards black people. Thus the fires of racism are fed - by attempting to correct a past wrong...by perpetrating a present wrong...and by perpetrating that wrong upon someone who did not commit the previous wrong.

Now, I clarified it for you. I stand by my words, and I stand by their meaning. i'm not afraid to do that. now, let's see you JUSTIFY your position. I've justified mine. And I stand by my words. agree or disagree, I have justified my poistion, and I have not been afraid to stasnd by my words, or exactly what they mean.

Now let's see you justify holding people who never committed any crime...accountable for the crimes of their ancestors? I'd love to see your justification for perpetrating a whole new round of wrongs...to try to correct a previous wrong. Did no one ever tell you that two wrongs do not make a right?
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
114. Still No Guts??
I've given you an opportunity to state your case and justification. May I conclude that your lack of response is indicative that you know your position is indefensible?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
51. My ancestors were'nt even IN this country till 1895 or so - I'll be damned if I'm going to sit
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 11:22 AM by TankLV
still and be PENALIZED for that had NOTHING to do with me or my family!

NEVER!
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Doubtless you and yr ancestors have derived HUGE unearned benefits from white skin
privileges that are long-lasting everyday legacies of slavery. Gifts that keep on giving big-time, even to people whose ancestors arrived after the Thirteenth Amendment was ratified.

At least be honest about it, like journalism professor Robert Jensen in his classic essay at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivil... :

"I walk through the world with white privilege.

What does that mean? Perhaps most importantly, when I seek admission to a university, apply for a job, or hunt for an apartment, I don't look threatening. Almost all of the people evaluating me for those things look like me--they are white. They see in me a reflection of themselves, and in a racist world that is an advantage. I smile. I am white. I am one of them. I am not dangerous. Even when I voice critical opinions, I am cut some slack. After all, I'm white.

... white privilege has meant that scores of second-rate white professors have slid through the system because their flaws were overlooked out of solidarity based on race, as well as on gender, class and ideology. Some people resist the assertions that the United States is still a bitterly racist society and that the racism has real effects on real people. But white folks have long cut other white folks a break. I know, because I am one of them.

... I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. ... I work hard, and I like to think that I'm a fairly decent teacher. Every once in awhile, I leave my office at the end of the day feeling like I really accomplished something. When I cash my paycheck, I don't feel guilty. But, all that said, I know I did not get where I am by merit alone. I benefited from, among other things, white privilege. That doesn't mean that I don't deserve my job, or that if I weren't white I would never have gotten the job. It means simply that all through my life, I have soaked up benefits for being white.

I grew up in fertile farm country taken by force from non-white indigenous people. I was educated in a well-funded, virtually all-white public school system in which I learned that white people like me made this country great. There I also was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people. All my life I have been hired for jobs by white people. I was accepted for graduate school by white people. And I was hired for a teaching position at the predominantly white University of Texas, which had a white president, in a college headed by a white dean and in a department with a white chairman that at the time had one non-white tenured professor. ..."
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
83. Well, I Have not "Soaked Up Benefits Of White Privilege!!"
If I have, then explain to me why I'm 2 years unemployed, and explain to me why economic circumstances for me got so bad that I was forced to move back home with Mommy at the age of 34?

Explain that, genius!

I am transgender, and I face unfair discrimination (often legal) every day of my life. Where's MY fucking reparations? do you see ME screaming and demanding others pay me for crimes they did not commit against me?

No.

For me, MY reparations would be the government finally standing up for me and my people, and passing ENDA, which would say once and for all...no, this practice is NOT OKAY, and you can't do it anymore.

the government has already said so for african-Americans...who could no more help their heritage than I could help being born gender dysphoric.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
82. I Agree With You
And, though my family on the paternal side were slaveowners....I'll be damned if I'm going to sit still and be penalized for crimes I did not commit...could not prevent, and did not benefit from.

Besides, my dad was adopted, and we have no idea of his natural bloodline. It is the adoptive family on my father's side that has slaveowning in its history. Should I suffer for that?
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
54. Self Delete--Wrong place
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 11:48 AM by ProgressiveEconomist
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Outside of academia, the white privledge argument gets little support
later baby boomers and espcially their children support it the least. I wonder if there is some corelation to their lack of direct experience with segregatin and institutional predjudice.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. IMO, one of the chief arguments for reparations lawsuits is that, even when they fail,
they get media attention that teaches at least some young people about the sordid history of racism in this country, a disgraceful, Nazi-like history that has been covered up for centuries. This history stilll actually is CELEBRATED by millions who, for example proudly fly the Confederate Swastika, or sing official 21st century State Songs that glorify the Confederacy and "darkies ... a-longing fo' de' ole Plantation."

See the links in post #35 above and in another GD thread at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Losing lawsuits are good because they get public attention?
Race relations are important. Fraudlent unwinable lawsuits do not make things any better.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Isn't that what "they" told Charles Hamilton Houston? IMO, the reparations movement
is a modern-day descendant of the civil rights movement that brought about Brown vs. Board of Ed. But this time, when inevitable progress is made, Ogletree won't like Thurgood Marshall accept "all deliberate speed".
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. the comparision is specious...there is no legal support for reparations and they will never happen
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. That's your opinion. See the link in post #41 for a much more informed opinion
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I read his commentary piece in the HLR...its nothing more than an OpEd with footnotes
Ogletree openly acknowledges the lack of success and is calling for changes in the law to open the door for them.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
78. If his opinion is an "OpEd with footnotes", then what is yours?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #78
99. A counter op-ed which shows all the holes and fallacies WRT reparations
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 06:48 PM by Solo_in_MD
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #99
135. with no footnotes, anonymous, and, therefore, little credibility?
Go for it.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #64
84. More Informed...Why? Because It Agrees With YOUR Opinion?
n/t
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Delete - Dup - seem to be having some sort of tech issue today
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 01:48 PM by Solo_in_MD
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Deleted - Inadvertant duplicate
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 11:54 AM by Solo_in_MD
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. Wrongfully Denied? There has been no enabling legislation.
As for benefits of many, slave owners were a small fraction of southern society, and a smaller fraction of the country overall. Please explain how a farming family in Vermont has consistently benefited from slaverly over the generations.

The issue of reparations are cyclic. I perceive those that cry out for them as having a secondary agenda that may or may not be obvious. Clearly they are not going to happen. Too hard and equity is immpossible. Look at how the reparations for the internment of Japanese Americans were handled. Slavery reparations would be *zero* based on those, as it should be.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. .......
Not at my expense!!

I'm sick of it always being MY boat that sinks so that everyone ELSE's may rise!!

I'm a smoker, I get attacked and outrageously taxed to "provide healthcare for others" Note: I HAVE NO FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE FOR MYSELF!! And don't tell me I could afford health insurance if I quit smoking. That's horse-shit and you know it.

I'm transgender, so I face discrimination and unfairness in employment. Even members of the GLB community are all to willing to sell MY people down the river in the name of THEM getting THEIR rights!!

Fuck, I'm sick of always being the one who gets the shit end of the stick!
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I'm pretty sure that if someone is out to sink your boat, it isn't me,
No one's boat should get sunk at all, unless they are criminals, of course.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. My Boat Always Gets Sunk!!
Where would the money for these "reparations" come from? My taxes. Where would the opportunities that might have been mine now get directed towards, in order to "make reparations" to people who never suffered slavery...and at the expense of people who never imposed slavery?

No, it's always MY boat that gets sunk and I'm sick and goddamn tired of it.

First, because I'm a smoker, I'm expected to shoulder the burden to pay for other people to have health insurance, which I do not have for my own SELF!! And don't give me bullshit that if I quit smoking I could afford health insurance...there is no WAY that the amount saved by not smoking could buy a health insurance policy and you know it...so don't even make that argument, it does not hold water.

Second, I'm transgender. As such, I am subjected to usually perfectly legal discrimination in the workplace, and in housing and public accommodations. I have been denied jobs for being transgendered...I have been fired for being transgendered, I have been denied medical treatment for being transgendered. WHERE'S MY FUCKING REPARATIONS?? I actually HAVE been wronged. Not my ancestors. ME....PERSONALLY!!
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. You what someone to feel sorry for you.......NOT!
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
85. Of Course Not
I'm doing that to make a point, and you fell right into the trap. Why is it that No pity is accorded ME...and yet you feel sorry for THEM...even to the tune of punishing ME for a crime I did not commit, could not control or prevent, and from which I have not benefitted?

Why are THEY deserving of your "feeling sorry" but I am not?

Especially seeing as how THEY never suffered slavery...yet I HAVE suffered, personally and directly...discrimination (often LEGAL) based upon my gender identity?

Is it becvause you have the audacity to think that MINE is a choice and theirs wasn't? If you think transgenderism is a CHOICE, buster, then you never suffered from...or knew anyone who suffered from gender dysphoria.

I'd not wish it on my worst enemy.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
65. I appreciate the point you are making here.
I am not sure, in my own mind, what constitutes "justice," but I know that we do, indeed, have a duty to provide that justice.

We do have a duty to correct injustice. The conversation will always be about how to do so, and it may often spark disagreement.

I wish that those who are so anxious to fight about it would engage in constructive problem solving, instead.

What IS the best way to correct racial injustice? Isn't that a great topic for a weighty conversation?
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
86. I Do Not Know The Correct Way
But I sure as HELL know that the incorrect way is to hold modern day people accountable for the crimes of their ancestors...and making other modern day people the beneficiaries of such "equalization."

Two wrongs do not create a right.

Why should I be held responsible for, accountable for...and be forced to pay and be penalized...for actions I did not commit, could not prevent, and did not benefit from?

And if I have benefitted so much, then explain to me why I'm 2 years unemployed, and had to move back home with Mommy at the age of 34!

Sounds like I've really fucking benefitted, now, don't it? Goddam, I've just made out like a fucking bandit!!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. I may not know the correct way, either.
I also know something about the "incorrect way" to discuss this issue.

I think it is "incorrect" to rant, to vent, to rage, to be, in a word, aggressive and/or belligerent. I think that creates a fight, rather than a discussion. It causes people to raise the drawbridge and fling boiling oil, rather than ideas.

Personally, I'd rather discuss the best way to achieve justice, rather than draw a line in the sand and bellow about it. I think we'd get a little further that way.

Instead of a flame war, how about a conversation about how to best achieve justice in this case? I'm open to all constructive suggestions about what to DO about it. We may not find a way to achieve the goal that we both agree on, but we are a lot more likely to move it forward if we start talking about what we ARE willing to do, instead of what we are not.

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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #95
115. Are You Suggesting....
That I am starting a flame war?

Excuse me, but I have only stated a possibly unpopular opinion, and given my reasons for having that opinion. In response to this, I have been, among other things, called "an asshole" (See Post #108)

So, who was starting the flame war??

I have merely pointed out that two wrongs do not make a right...and it is just this sort of injustice which will not heal the wound...but, rather, just create new wounds.

Do you expect me to have money ripped away from me...to pay for "reparations" to people who never suffered slavery...for a crime of slavery I did not participate in...could not stop, and did not benefit from?

Do you suggest that, by so doing, i'm going to be very inclined to take the hand of my African-American brothers and sisters and sing "Kum-Bah-Yah?"

Because I hate to tell you if you think that, then you are disconnected from reality.

What this would create is a generation of people who felt unjustly wounded...and who would therefore feel resentment.

What possible gain is there in creating another injustice in order to "make up for" a previous injustice?

Where's the healing? I don't see it.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #115
119. I'm suggesting that flame wars are the logical conclusion
of entering a conversation belligerently. You are free to decide if that shoe fits, or not. It doesn't hurt or help me, one way or the other.

I will say that I only read the first line plus 2 words of your response. Whether intentional or not, I'm interpreting your tone as confrontational.

Again, I'm happy to discuss how we achieve justice for all, and to debate different points of view about it, with anyone so inclined. Discuss. Not flame, not confront, not fight. Discuss.

That applies to anyone who would like to discuss, as well as those who prefer confrontations. It's not personal.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. It's Personal To Me!!
You are suggesting holding me accountable for a crime I did not commit, could not prevent...and from which I did not benefit...and giving the proceeds of that to people who never actually suffered the wrong that was slavery.

and yet, I suffer wrong every day at the hands of employers who discriminate against me because I'm transgender. And often, this type of discrimination is perfectly legal, and I have no legal recourse!

Yet, do you hear ME screaming for reparations from all straight folks for this? NO!

For me, reparations would be the government gfinally standing up for MY rights, and saying..."This practice is no longer okay, you may not do this...and if you do...then PoconoPragmatist...and others like her...will have legal recourse to address their grievances AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY PERPETRATED THE WRONG AGAINST THEM."

I'm already about as low as you can go...2 years unemployed and living at home with mommy at the age of 36. So how much more do you want to kick me in the teeth, just because I happen to have been born white? I've just plain had enough of it always being MY boat that gets sunk so that everyone else's might rise! Okay?

Does that make me horrible? That for once I am sick and tired of being the sacrificial lamb? That for once, I want the goddamn goodies...instead of someone else getting the goodies AT MY EXPENSE??
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. You need some water. Truly.
Where, exactly, did I say ANYTHING about holding you accountable for a crime you didn't commit? Where do you get that from my supporting a conversation about justice? Where, anywhere, have I made even that suggestion personal, only about PoconoPragmatist?

Calm down, please. Take a few cooler breaths, take a moment, or more, and if you still want to talk, I'll be around. Here's a spot in my state you might enjoy:

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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. And who would you give reparations to?
How would it be divided up? Let's see, slave A has 10 children and slave B has 5, going along the line, it ends up that slave A has over 1,000 descendants (he was a slave at the beginning of the era). Slave B has about 75 descendants (he was a slave for only about 5 years before he was freed). What if slave C only had 1 child, and therefore only about 10 descendants. How would you solve this problem?

And, then you would have to prove you were descendants, but what if it's only oral history with no written records? What if some people decided to forge proof of their ancestors? How would you check every thing?

And, of course, would those descendants of slaves who got 10 acres and a mule, be disqualified? So many decisions to make.

All of the above would also apply to Native Americans.

The only way to handle it is to make sure that they have the boot straps, so they can pull themselves up.

zalinda
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Anyone who inherited a cause of action. Do you think Nicole's parents shouldn't be able to sue OJ
in civil court just because she is dead?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Have you considered that doing that at this point is not practical
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. I have considered that courts of law and juries should be making that decision
after hearing all the evidence, and that people like you and me shouldn't be making those decisions before hearing that evidence.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. What Evidence?
We all know slavery happened! It's a documented fact. Hell, I'm not proud of it, but back in the day, my family on the paternal side WERE slaveowners. Of course, my dad being adopted means that it isn't REALLY his bloodline here.

I have no actual idea of my dad's TRUE bloodline. Nevertheless...as I keep saying....I never owned a slave...why the hell should I be punished and held accountable for actions over which I had no control...and actions I, myself, did not commit?

That's like throwing me in jail because my great-grandfather held up the Wells Fargo bank 95 years ago! (Not really, I'm just using this as an example.)
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. "throw you in jail"? This is a civil issue not criminal.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
87. Parallel. In Both Cases, you Are suggesting Peanlizing ME For Crimes Committed By My Ancestors n/t
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. Once again, this is a CIVIL remedy, and it's for torts and not for crimes.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #94
101. The issue is who should be the defendants and plaintiffs
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 06:59 PM by Solo_in_MD
- No one alive was a slave holder or has demonstrably profited directly from slavery
- No one alive was as slave

Its not resolvable on a practical level...and whether criminal or civil, you are still arguing for holding people accountable for sins of the forebearers.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #101
131. How can you say that? I would only draw those conclusions after hearing a trial.
You are putting the conclusion cart before the horse of a well argued (on both sides) case.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #131
139. Because I undertand the American legal system, and I am begining to doubt you do. Consider:
1) You have to clearly identify the defendant...which is one of the acknowledged issues even by Ogletree.
2) They have to have broken a law that was enforce at the time (expost facto is not allowed)
3) The plaintiff has to prove standing.
4) The plantiff has to prove damages
5) The court has to has jurisdiction

And those are the basics. If you read the HRL article and others, including those critical of reparations, you will realize that the its almost immpossible to get to court with a reparations suit andthey are academic exersizes at this point.

Just because Person A great grandfather was a slave does not give them ground to sue you, me, the State or Federal Gov.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #94
123. What's Civil About Penalizing People Who Did No Wrong??
And what will this accomplish...directing a second injustice against a group of people (in this case, a group of people who did no wrong...in effect, punishing them for the actions of their ancestors) to the benefit of a group who did not suffer the injustices committed by the ancestors of the first group.

Do you really believe two wrongs could ever make a right?

Do you suggest that this will actually do anything other than cause further erosion in race relations? Do you suggest that this proposal, were it to in fact occur...would create anything other than resentment of Group B by Group A?

where's the healing?

This is not a remedy. This is penalizing a group of people for the crimes of their ancestors. Which is not fair...as the people being peanalized did not in fact commit the crimes, nor were they in a position to prevent the crimes from being committed.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #123
130. What's civil about keeping money that belongs to someone else?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. It would take enabling legislation which would have to include funding and eligibility
courts and juries would have nothing to do with it unless there were disputes about eligibility

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. In the US we have juries hear civil trials unless the parties waive right where that's an option.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. whom whould sue whom and under what law? Its just not there, nor should it be
You can only sue if there is a tort or other cause of action, and and there is none recognized for slavery reparations.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
75. Conversion is a tort. But I'd be happy if a cause of action were created by statute.
And I'd love to see a jury trial on this issue. But, I'd also be happy if congress stopped blocking Conyers's attempt to just do research into this issue to see what the facts and to think hard about the issue.

You don't have a problem with that do you?

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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #75
98. Did you read the part on statute of limitations issues?
I don't support research on this or perpetual motion machines, both are wastes of time and resources that are better spent elsewhere
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #98
132. Murder SOL is for life. Slavery tort SOL should be for life...of corporation.
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 11:17 PM by 1932
And we all know corporations have personhood and live forever.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #132
138. Few corporations can trace back that far in the US, and few if any have any direct tracable history
of slavery. Were it so, there would have been some successful suits. Also remember that when Corp A buys Corp B, it doesn't necesarily take on all its history, it may just be buying its assets.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. If you want to play devil's advocate, plead expiration of SOL as a defense.
If you're a solo attorney in MD, then you know that expiration of SOL doesn't prevent someone from filing claim. You know that it's a defense to a claim. So let people plead it in defense. But it's no reason to PREVENT people from bringing a case in the first place.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
13. Slavery is the corporate crime equivalent of murder. It should have same statute of limitations --
-- the lifetime of the corporation.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. money changed hands...
there was value then...where's the money ?
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Bullet1987 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I don't believe in reperations for descendents of slaves
...now, if there was some slave still alive today (somehow), then yea...I would say that person deserves reperations. But slavery was well over a century ago.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Are their any surviving US companies that were slavers?
most slave buyers and sellers were private parties as I recall
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. American business benefitted enormously from slavery
and many of those companies - that are now multibillion dollar conglomerates that were built on slavery - still exist today.
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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes the did, but what about people that owned slaves? Is someone
going to go back in my family's history to see if they owned a slave...then I, as an individual, would have to pay out money? How is that fair? I never benefited from a slave. Now if I had owned a slave I could see reparations, but I haven't, so why should I pay?
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Bingo!! We Have A Winner!!
I sure as hell never benefitted from slavery. why the fuck should I be punished for it, because someone back in my bloodline did?

And, in my case, I have no real idea.

My dad was adopted. I've no clue about my father's actual bloodline. The paternal side of my family, the ones who adopted my father...if you go back in their bloodline...yes, they were slaveowners in the day. It's quite well documented in a family journal dating back to 1850. But that's not really my bloodline!

Besides...do you believe that, if my great-grandfather held up a bank 95 years ago, and managed to never get caught...that I should be thrown in jail for my great-grandfather's crime?

That is what reparations advocates are suggesting. That I should be held accountable for crimes I did not commit, could not prevent, and did not benefit from.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Carefull...
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 09:55 AM by Solo_in_MD
are they the mothership, or just a name and assets that were bought along the way. Unlike Europe where banking companies have long histories and are often inherited, most in the US are newer and shareholder owned.

Is there a list of the many companies?



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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. I believe there's a law suit against Fleet Bank (which is now BoA)
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
41. Dozens of recent reparations lawsuits are summarized in the Harvard Law Review at URL
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Ogletree is not exactly an impartial commentator on this topic
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 10:21 AM by Solo_in_MD
and his writings are the usual academic nonsense
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Give me one example of something he presents as fact that did not happen
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. His facts are not the issue, its his opinions and spin, Its a commentary piece
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 10:26 AM by Solo_in_MD
that is advocating changes to laws and precedents to allow such suits to proceed against corporation and the government. It also omits any serious discussion of the hard issues or who should pay, who should be paid, and how much.


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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. His facts ARE the issue in the post (#20) to which I responded. Do you have a better
law review citation? One that cites more cases of reparations lawsuits against surviving corporate entities that profited from slavery and its consequences?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. The issue is the reasonableness of reparations
His articles lists some of filed suits, but not the dispostion of all of them. His commentary on the disposition of at least one of them shows his bias. He is free to his opinion, but his words are not representative of vast majority of legal scholarship nor of public opinion, even in the African American community.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. A simple "no" would have sufficed
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
88. What? You Don't Want To Hear A Reasoned, Opposing Opinion??
So easy to win a debate when you try to control both sides of it!
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. If you dismiss the work of an esteemed academic in a refereed law journal,
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 04:25 PM by 1932
then what weight should we give your anonymous posts on this board?

You're not even making arguments. In fact your last post was nothing more than a personal attack.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #77
97. Its labled commentary...its in a different category
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
134. Has your "commentary" been published in HLR?
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
76. Because he's black?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
96. No, because he is part of an advocay group for reparations
FWIW, I was unaware of his race
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #96
133. So let's discount opinions of people who are respected, informed and interested?
That doesn't make any sense at all.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
34. Money will make it better. Money will make it like it just never happened.
Especially if you take the money from people who weren't alive and give it to people who weren't alive during the time in question. Right?

This is crap. I'm a woman. I'm still treated like shit.

When do I get my money from you men, Mr. Conyers?


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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
89. Yup.
And I'm transgender. Often, I'm mistaken for gay, and thus, am subjected to the same shitty treatment accorded to gays...and to transgender folks.

When do I get my money from straight folks? Is that check in the mail yet?
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
44. Racism is the core of every problem that we have in this country.
the only thing that has changed over hundreds of years are the laws, which starting with the Constitution, govern race and control the way race relations is viewed. From the outset of this country, laws and policy have been the key factor in how race has been affected. "A'' Men Are Created Equal" The Constitution was not intended to include black people as equal because slaves were intentionally captured, enslaved and brought to America to work the cotton and tobacco fields for economic reasons and were viewed and identified by law, as inventory, the same as farm animals or the plow used to till the soil. Even some of the writers of the Constitution owned slaves. The whites of this nation created and embraced that philosophy and saw no problem with it, so as this country's economy grew on the backs of slave labor, whites, without conscious, used slave labor as their means livelihood and success because the law deemed it necessary. This was political correctness at the time.

The economic benefits of slavery in the South benefited the entire nation, not just the South. The laws ensured for whites a life of fulfillment and prosperity while slaves faced a life of isolation, illiteracy, disease punishment, justified violence, rape, family separation (selling of slaves) degradation and warranted/justified death. This intent created a life long atmosphere of pain and suffering for the economic growth of this country and kept whites safe and sound. Did any slave owner, businessman or politician have any remorse or an attack of conscious to change this system when economically this country prospered? No. Slavery could have been stopped at any time prior to Lincoln. Move forward just after slavery. After the Emancipation Proclamation, did any laws really change? Did any attitudes really change? Not really, just a new set of rules to continue this horrid process. Were free blacks given the opportunity to improve their current situation? No. The same standards were "tweaked". Blacks were "free" but what exactly did that mean? Some who could, moved North but the majority became "share croppers" or slave- lite. No real social, economic or educational progress equal or close to whites, only terror, manipulation (the KKK, hanging, cross burning etc) by whites to continue their philosophy ans superiority. If you forward to the Civil Rights era and the "Jim Crow" laws, this standard softened and remained but in each case, whites followed the rule of law and embraced it. This same attitude toward blacks (and other minorities) has not really changed for millions of whites in this country today and even the ones who came here from other nations embraced it, only the laws restricts, mandate and limit behavior.

So to me, it's no surprise that many whites, who can trace their ancestry back to slave owners and administrators, will justify their non support of reparations. Why would their attitude change or stance be any different? This is your legacy that was created and supported.. This does not include all whites since millions cames from other countries well after slavery and yes how do you identify who's at fault and who receives? Difficult. In this country, racism has and is an institutionally created mental process passed down by generations to oppress and it is the only thing that can't be discussed among black and whites as a nation freely without discomfort. WE NEED TO GET GET PASS THIS. Many whites today still feel the same way be it "redneck" or corporate suit, but the laws still guide outward actions for many but mentally some are no different.






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lostinacause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
68. Would reparations solve any of the problems that you speak of? If so how?
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #68
103. No, reparations would not solve these problems,
the one thing that americans have never dealt with directly, neither socially or politically, is race relations in this country. As much as Americans avoid the issue since slavery, it rears it's ugly head everyday of our lives. Like it or not, this is an institution, a major part of our culture/tradition created to oppress and control another race and we have never faced it head on and try to resolve it. We as a nation, refuse to. Politicians have apologized for slavery in certain states but what does that accomplish? Just think about it, it affects the way we think, how we act, who we socialize with, who we marry, who we hire/fire, who we accuse, where we live, what decisions we make daily, it controls our fears, our psyche and on and on.

Reparations ($$$) can build better schools, hire better teachers, build better housing, improve facilities etc. but it cannot change the way people think and feel about another race. Even if everything was equal across the board with economics and education, it does not change people's thinking. That change comes with dialog, education, getting out of your comfort zone and taking the initiative to get to know others and letting go of perceptions that may have been passed down through family, friends or life experiences. We as americans do this everyday and minorities are guilty as well. African Americans did not create this culture/tradition that exists but traditionally it's negative effects are everywhere. I tell people all the time, if you want to know about something about another race just start a dialog with someone, listen and discuss without the fear of knowing truths on both sides. I have had many business meals and for some reason, at that very first meal, race seems to always creeps in. I have even been apologized to for slavery. Why? Is it because there needs to be a comfort zone established to separate me from a perceived perception? I have also been told I am not like the some others. The other what? I can continue but I think it's obvious.

Americans need to seriously dialogue and with the current issues of illegal immigration and Muslim americans, racial focus shifts and things get worse. To me, We need reparations of our mindset and serious communication with each other. That in itself can solve more problems than money ever could.
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lostinacause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. My belief is that putting financial resources into to areas that you mention
Edited on Sun Jul-29-07 08:41 PM by lostinacause
would do wonders to start to bridge the gap. The education disparity in America is ridiculous. The combination of this, racism and other social factors make it very difficult to move up. Unfortunately, it is easier to discriminate against people when they are generally members of an underclass.

Removing some of these barriers for low income household in general makes sense from a policy perspective. Education and skill development is one of the best ways to deal with poverty issues.
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #107
127. You're correct and I agree,
but why discriminate based on social/economic class? Yes, the education in this country is a wrecked and the gap needs to be closed, but let's also consider judging people based on character and integrity and not economic status alone or higher education. Some of the best people I know did not go to college or have high paying jobs, but they are excellent examples of american citizens that have excellent morals, integrity and family values. Personally, I judge based on getting to know people for who they are, not based on what they have. You can't put a dollar amount or college degree on that. We all have similar issues whether you are rich poor or in between. Basically we are all the same. Bloggers on DU comes from all races and social/economic levels and communication in these forums are good. We can't see each other but the dialogue is great. Would it be different if we saw each other? Something to think about.

Your opinion in my book is spot on and hopefully someday these barriers will fall, but mentally our attitudes have to change and we have to talk to one another. It may be comfortable to talk to someone that you have something in common with, but don't be afraid to step outside the box. There is a great benefit in that also.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #103
116. Caveat....
"Reparations ($$$) can build better schools, hire better teachers, build better housing, improve facilities etc. but it cannot change the way people think and feel about another race."

Oh, yes it can!! and it will! If you think that taking money from white folks, just because they are white, and their ancestors did horrible things....and giving it to black folks who never actually suffered slavery....if you think that's gonna make white folk just wanna grab their African-American brothers and sisters by the hand and sing "Kum-Bah-Yah" then you got another thing coming!!

No, this would just be another wrong...and would create it's own share of bitterness and resentment.

Where's the healing? I don't see any healing come from this. Just another round of injustice, directed at people who did nothing to deserve it.

Much as slavery was an injustice directed at a group of people who also had done nothing to deserve it.

Two wrongs do not make a right...and I see only new injustice, no healing, and more breakdown in race relations resulting from such an action.

I know damn well, I'm going to be bloody well pissed off if money is pried away from me...to pay for a crime I did not commit, could not prevent, and did not benefit from!! and I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way...even here. Even if I may be the only one...or one of only a few...with the intestinal fortitude to stand up and say so.
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #116
137. You are a perfect example of what I have been blogging about.
But you are entitled to your opinion. Someone who is close minded and cannot not comprehend what I am trying to say. Your only concern is money, money, money and the fear that someone wants to take your precious dollars away from you. I don't know why you are pissed off but that's here nor there. You're part of the problem and one of the many reasons racism and hatred still strives in this nation. Viewpoints such as your and others (according to you on DU and you're probably right) hinders race relations and the collective values of conversation and dialogue, but i already knew that people like you exist and it's good to know because you're irreverent in this conservation and the process of moving forward. Remember the old saying "don't hold on to your money too tight, it will slip away" Work on your ignorance it's does wonders for your health and spirit.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
91. And How Do You Suggest We "Get Past This??"
By penalizing people who committed no crime? Yeah, that's just gonna make them wanna hold hands with their African-American brothers and sisters and sing Kum-Bah-Yah, now won't it?? :sarcasm:
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. Read my thread "No, reparations will not solve these problems".
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
52. The Spousal Unit's forefather was an indentured servant.
He was forced to this country against his will on the Mayflower. His name is right there, on the rolls.

It gives me great pleasure to tell the club set that I'm married to a "Mayflower" family and when they ooo and ahhh, explain that well, really the indentured servant of a Mayflower family....but the family name is right there....on the rolls.

Anyway...my perverse sense of humor aside. Do we get compensated because the ancestors were, in essence, slaves who were forced to come here and work against their will?

And, please, don't tell me that was different. That indentured servants could "work off" their debt and become freemen. Some did. Some were held on "new" offenses, that kept them indebted in a lifetime of unpaid servitude.

It is a known fact that many slaves were given freemen status by their owners. They were given an endowment and papers and set free. The main difference between them seems to be the legal wording of their status.

Just askin' (and waiting for a check)
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. "Many slaves were given freemen status". Wasn't that usually when they were old and
worn out, and their economic usefulness to Massa as a piece of equipment was over?

Had they not been "freed" at that time, they would have stayed on the Plantation and either be "on net" given resources to survive or be killed for economic reasons.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. Not necessarily. And your emotion baiting aside, my question still stands. n/t
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. Also many black slave owners, some white slaves, indentured, and problems everywhere
No sane person should want to open this can of worms; the only way to contain it would be a much larger can. My sanity being in doubt, let me point out just a few problems with the reparations argument.

How would you sort out the absurdities to decide who pays and who gains? Consider some things that really muddy the debate.

Obama is probably a descendant of slave owners and not a descendant of slaves.

Possibly the first slave owner in Virginia was black. There were always black slave owners including some who owned white slaves (black ownership of white slaves was banned in Virginia in the late 1700's). In almost every state, at least one of the largest slave owners was black. Indenture servants were of all races and were often treated worse than slaves. When the Union Army captured New Orleans, it took control of the slaves and did not free them; over 3000 of the NO slave owners where black. Would descendants of black slaveowners be excluded or those of white slaves and indurtured servants included?

As others have noted, what about those whose ancestors came to the US much more recently?

And what about the case of a non-slaveowner white who lost rights, property, and suffered in many ways because he happened to live in one of the CSA states? Are his descendants eligible?

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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
128. How did you get such a distorted view of slavery? Have you ever read any slave
narratives? Books that became great literature because they encapsulated what the majority of slaves must have experienced, not the deliberately misleading footnotes of "Gone With the Wind" sophistry?

I heartily recommend to you IMO the greatest of all slave narratives, "The Autobiography of Frederick Douglass, online at URL http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Literature/Douglass/Autobio...
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #52
121. "Don't tell me (white indentured servitude) was different"(?!) See the BookTV link in
post #35 above, and read the excerpts from Harriet Washington's "Medical Apartheid" below.

I find your post UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT!

Were your ancestors brutally enslaved for their entire lives? Did their children automatically become slaves too, the moment they were born? Did the entire life's work of up to 10 generations of your ancestors go to enrich others, in such a way that many of the current inheritors of that stolen wealth can be identified today? Was it illegal for anyone to teach your ancestors to read? If they ran away, could anyone automatically tell your ancestors were slaves by the color of their skin? Does the skin color of their descendants limit their life chances (according to hundreds of social statistics) to this very day? And did this ever happen to any of them?

From http://www.browardtimes.com/index.php?option=com_conten...

..."colonial physicians either purchased slaves to experiment on, or paid other plantation owners for slaves on loan. These respected white men of colonial society would strip black women nude, order them to a table on their knees, and perform all manner of painful surgeries on their genitalia, skin, and other parts of their bodies. ... In her book, Harriet A. Washington reports that during slavery, "physicians believed that blacks naturally harbored diseases, notably syphilis that threatened the health of whites. Common beliefs served as rationales for abusive medical experimentation. One of the most tenacious beliefs was that blacks did not feel pain or anxiety, which excused painful surgical explorations without anesthesia on blacks." ...

A Dr. Walter F. Jones of Petersburg, Virginia, "experimented by pouring boiling water on naked enslaved typhoid pneumonia patients at four hour intervals," she wrote. Washington also reports that John M.B. Harden, M.D., of Georgia, "described how he had stripped blood vessels from the limbs of a Negro and of three hogs. Harden then measured the width of the blood vessels to determine the relative areas of the Trunks and Branches of arteries, with the stated intent of furthering anatomical knowledge." Harden published those findings in a June 1846 article in the Southern Medical and Surgical Journal, according to Washington. During the same period, James Marion Sims, known as the "father of American gynecology," practiced as a physician on a plantation in Alabama. He would later start the New York Womens Hospital. For five years he conducted numerous experimental surgeries on control groups of enslaved black women, more than 30 on a slave named Anarcha....

Between 1822 and 1831, "a Donaldson, Louisiana, surgeon named Dr. Franois Marie Prvost used enslaved black women to perfect cesarean sections," Washington reports. Dr. Ephraim McDowell performed the first successful ovariotomy (removal of an ovary), a "dangerous and excruciatingly radical surgery on his four slave women."... Washington tells the reader "In Anderson, South Carolina, in 1839, a group seized a black boy and forced him to inhale ether from a hankerchief". After an hour he revived, no worse for his alarming experience. This incident convinced Dr. Crawford W. Long that ether could safely be tested as a potential anesthetic, as he did using three black slaves, followed by the amputation of an etherized boys toe in 1842, and a mans finger in 1845."..."




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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
53. it's not just about the past
it's about the future and making it better by improving our understanding of and relationship to the past

there are people alive and well today, inlcuding here in Virginia, who would actually in all seriousness like to bring back slavery

this problem is not yet behind us
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
70. The only reparation needed is for each of us
to look at our brothers and sisters from other racial or ethnic descents as our equals. That's more than enough.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
92. Bingo!! A winner!! n/t
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
72. Wow
Didn't know there were so many ignorant racists and misogynists here on DU...


Well, I lied, I DID know... :evilgrin:
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #72
93. Ah...I Get It Now!!
Anyone who does not march in lockstep in favor of reparations is a racist. so much easier to attempt to smear and discredit those who hold an opposite opinion...than to actually deal with the legitimate arguments they bring up, isn't it?

Don't want to deal with too many messy facts, do we?

I'm disappointed, ProudDad. I thought better of you.
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Marrak Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. Why can't Muslim Americans adopt Iraqi....

...Orphans? I am (but wife is not?) All I get is bush-shit...
:hurts:

when I try to get a formal policy statement from US Dept of State in DC....

I get :mad:

I am almost ready to sue somebody! :wtf:

I am so pissed! :wtf:

I mean....do I have to paint a picture? :puke:

:nuke:

:kick:
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #93
102. I didn't
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #102
117. No....You Didn't.
Did you bother to look and see to whom I was actually responding?
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
106. Focus on Pelosi, not Conyers nt
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
126. Well said, Recommend end
:thumbsup:
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otisjf24 Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
129. So, the real question is:
Is the Impeachment case as unwinnable as the Reparations case? At least in the forseeable, near future?
OR
Is the Impeachment case just not as important as the Reparations case?

Well, I think THIS is the real question:
We have someone that has chosen a cause that may never be won. At least, not anytime soon. It is not a politically savvy case. I am sure that holding this issue has cost him votes, in his district, in the House, and even in his own party. This is regardless of whether or not you agree with the idea of Reparations. Ask yourself:

Why has no one gone out on this same limb for Impeachment?

Hell, why have so few gone out on the limb of Impeadment? I can understand why both of these cases have a hard time finding any ground, but why is it so hard to just stop Bush? Why is so hard to get real equality legislation (not quotas, etc.), and real punishment for discrimiation? Everyone is looking for the "Big Finish", I am still hoping for a "Good Start".

Otis
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-29-07 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
141. Locking
this has become a flamefest.

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