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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:15 AM
Original message
Poll question: Which do you believe best describes the collective of recent threads on DU expressing anger...
Edited on Wed May-23-07 07:16 AM by Mr_Jefferson_24
...disappointment, and lack of confidence in Dem leadership for not doing more to stop the war in Iraq?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Whining
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thanks for your response. However, don't you think that's a pretty crude judgment...
at this point?

And welcome to DU! :hi:
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Not really
Because until we have the power to override Chimpy's veto we need to come up with a new solution, benchmarks are the key but they must have teeth and cutting off funds is not a good way at this juncture.

I know using the word whining is rude, I wish I could of used a better choice of words.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I don't think you're being rude at all Heath...
...I chose to use "whining" in the poll because I saw this thread had made it to the Greatest page and wondered how the DU community felt on the matter:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. No problem, Heath. That's how choices have been framed.
...and i don't necessarily disagree with your judgment...
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draft_mario_cuomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
47. If we sent him a strong bill again and again HE may have been the one to cave
If Democrats followed Edwards and Feingold and sent the vetoed bill back again and again one side would have had to eventually cave in order to prevent the troops from being stranding without any funding in Iraq. Bush, not the Dems, may have been the one to do so. Unfortunately, the Dems did not even fight on this and folded after one veto so we will never know if Bush would have caved...
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Cuomo, Bush would of never caved
He's so stubborn like a mule and since he dosen't care about public opinion he would of never backed down, that's a fact. It's his way or the highway, your either with us or againist us.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Welcome to DU, Heath.
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thank you Jefferson
I hope I can have some great discussions with everyone here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. Self Deleted
Edited on Wed May-23-07 08:33 AM by Heath Hatcher


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Lashing out -
Until we have the power to overturn a veto by the monkey, this discussion is moot.

It's coming in the not to distant future.
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nevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. total frustration
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Hey whats this I hear that Pelosi is not voting for this bill
I was listening to Sirius radio last night and when AP news came on it said that Pelosi not going to vote for this bill because it dosen't include a timetable for withdrawal. That don't make sense but it kinda makes sense if Reid and Hoyer where the only ones coming up with the comprimise with the GOP on the spending bill then it makes perfect sense.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I didn't know Pelosi had said that...
...Turning on C-Span now.



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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Actually AP had a soundbyte with her talking about the bill
And she said that she can't support it with a withdrawal in it.

This was yesturday
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. Other. I explain below.
When in times of "crisis" the FReepers amongst us pop their creepy little heads out of the sand and start their collective shit and pot stirring. Hell, even THEY are sick of what is going on in the country at this point. I have seen comments posted here from "the site which shall not be named" and it appears that in some cases, they are seeing * for what he truly is.
When it comes to Congress and the Democrats (Pelosi, et al) they have a field day. They pop into our threads and do their divide and conquer routine.
Been there, seen it and EXPECT IT. And sadly, a number here at DU fall for it every time.
Just my opinion.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. EGG-ZACK-LY, Rockholm...
It's a pattern. Pathetic though it may be... Not an opinion, just a demonstrable fact. Tell the truth and shame the devil as my mom used to say.
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
57. I couldn't agree more
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. Where's "Holding breath until turning blue"?
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. My amazing Kreskin like psychic abilities are telling me you voted "Whining."
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Damn you're good!
I bet you win the lottery a lot with psychic abilities like that!
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
14. Not DU's finest hour...
:evilgrin:






Oh, sorry, wrong thread... :rofl:
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'll have whatever you had for breakfast.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. I had this new cereal...
Edited on Wed May-23-07 08:11 AM by hlthe2b
unveiled just yesterday, called FALWELL FLAKES....



(in honor of Liberty University "flakes" far and wide)
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. concern trolls and freepers are always here unlike their
Edited on Wed May-23-07 07:56 AM by NavyDavy
unamerican site we don't ban them for disagreeing with us......
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. Amen, NavyDavy... This seems to be the foremost difference
between the two. BTW, welcome to DU, right glad to meet ya!! :hi:
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. thank you......I have been here a while longer than my profile
says but i lost my sign in and had to start from scratch
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. OK, so, let me get this straight.
If you disagree with Congress' inaction, you're "whining." But if you go-along-to-get-along and allow corporate America's complete takeover of America without so much as a whimper, then, what, you're not a whiner?

Tell me, sunshine, have you actually READ the Constitution???? You might also open a history book to the section on WWII and appeasement and tell me how that turned out for the Brits. Kay????
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Last time I read a history book
The Brits won WW2. What book were you reading?
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. NoPasaran, I think the poster is referring to Chamberlain and his famous
comment about "Peace in Our day" when he was speaking about his meeting with hitler in trying to avoid hostilities with nazi Germany.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Yeah, I got that
My point is that in the end the British won the war, not the Germans.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. I understand but I think what they're trying to point out is thst
had someone stood up before, hitler would have felt alot less entitled to commit the subsequent crimes against humanity that he did.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
40. Not before
Chamberlain compromised away Czechoslovakia (and conceded the Rhineland and Austria) for a peace which lasted only a few months before Hitler pissed on the treaty. If the Brits had listened to Churchill and confronted Germany before they had taken over a significant part of Europe, WWII wouldn't have happened.

The first lesson is a freebie, all others will cost ya. :evilgrin:
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Well, that's one view
But another view is that Britain was not militarily prepared for a war with Germany in 1938 (hell, they still weren't ready a year later when they actually did declare war over Poland.) So appeasement, while it did not prevent war, did give Britain (and France) more time to catch up in the rearmament race.

Winston Churchill was a wonderful and very persuasive writer, but it needs to be remembered that earlier in his career he had advocated numerous military adventures (i.e. the Dardanelles Campaign, the Intervention in the Russian Civil War, encouraging the Greeks to invade Turkey after WW1, etc.) which ended disastrously. So it should at least be understood why he found a limited audience for his warnings about Hitler's intentions in the 1930s.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yank me, spank me, any way you want me...
...but please, and yes, I'm fully prepared to beg, PLEASE don't call me sunshine.
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. I don't have a history book on me
So please tell me, what happen to the Brits?
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Big Pappa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #25
46. Prime Minister Chamberlin
n/t.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. I tried to point that out to the "Newbie" , though I must admit...
I wasn't as diplomatic as you but it was as obvious as old limbaugh at a Black Panther Meeting.. Some people never learn. I think we can safely say that "Sunshine Heath of the low posts" has never seriously done either one of the things you suggested..
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. All right what your deal with me
Whats with the stupid nickname, "Sunshine Heath of the low post" WTF? it's not my fault I just registered last night but with all the debates going on it won't be hard to reach 200 post by the end of the week.

But seriously whats your deal Ecumenist?
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. Other - juvenile. It's like some here have no concept of how the real world works.
This is our Congress we're talking about, not a group of rebels! We don't have veto override majorities.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
32. Why do I get this feeling that how people view this is an age thing?
If you notice a lot of these anti democratic posts all fit into instant gratifacation or lets wait and see what comes next, so give them time thinking.

The young tend to think everything is instant, by ending the war today no more americans will die, Democrats have to stand up to shrub or they will be seen as weak and we sent a mandate to end the war.

The older members seem to view this as a time thing, if the war ended today that wouldn't stop the death toll, the democrats don't have the votes to over ride a veto and this puts the war loss blame on republicans.

One thing is clear, no matter what the democrats do, the republicans will spin it as democratics are weak, they been doing it every since Reagan said it in 1979 about Carter. Again america is stuck on stupid, we have no ideal what tomorrow will bring, yet what are we doing? Acting like the party of freaks and whinners. Notice how willing the freepers are at giving shrubs "surge" a chance at working, even though all logic points to the fact that it won't work. Come on people, remember your dealing with child mentality here, Like when your 16 year old has all these dreams about the future and how they will have the things they want yet they haven't a clue on how to get those things.

It's the same with freepers, they only see today and yesterday and expect the future to be the same. To be honest those of us who remember VietNam also remember that it took a very long time before the war was seen as lost. The first 4 years of that war there was little talk of stopping it, after the 1967 Tet attack, america saw the war as what it was, unwinable. Yet the war continued and esculated right up to the period of Nixons impeachment. Unlike today, back then the AG went against the president.

All we are saying is give Dems a chance. You don't win wars by fighting unwinable battles, you win by choosing your attacks and striking at the best moment when the enemy least expects it.
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I don't know that
Edited on Wed May-23-07 08:35 AM by Heath Hatcher
Because I am 19 years old and I know that this will take time and keep giving Shrub the same bill over and over again and him vetoing it over and over again won't end the war but time, patience, determination, alot of phone calls to our Congresscritters and alittle bt of GOP support beyond two members will help end this war. We did not cave in, we accepted reality. We knew that right now a timetable won't pass and americans do not support cutting off funds so the best way to show accountability to the administration is give them benchmarks with teeth. If we caved in and gave shrub everything we wanted, no benchmarks or a minumum wage increase would no be included in this funding, just a clean bill that gave bush all his money with no questions asked would be caving in, that did not happen. This is political reality

Maybe I calm for a 19 year on this because I have patience, I am optimistic, I am a glass half full kinda guy, I am loyal to my party through thick and thin and I am in college for Political Science so I have a feeling on how the Government runs.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Theres always exceptions to the rules. But again, your thinking long term goals instead of short
term gains that will please a few but nothing would change, shrub would veto dems would try to over ride and nothing would be done except shrub getting his way and the half brain dead would say "see the dems are weak, they couldn't over ride shrubs strong veto".
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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Regardless of the RW MSM spin
The fact is this is political reality and the Dems are not weak, there excepting political reality that unless more GOP members step up to the plate and support some sort of withdrawal, it won't pass and we can't override Shrubs veto. Were not weak, far from that.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. How has your stratgey been working that past 7 years?
Hot tip, young fellow: How you fight today has a lot to do with how winnable the next battle is. Bush fights hard and dirty, and he's been kicking our ass - largely because of your type of thinking. And guess what? This time around, given his rep as a fighter, he's scared some people so bad that he didn't have to fight us at all this time.
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solara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
38. The disappontment and lack of confidence is not JUST about the vote on Iraq
Iraq is not the only issue, although it is extremely important..but it is also about the SILENCE of our Dem Congress on the other extremely important issues like Bush's National Security Presidential Directive/NSPD 51 and Homeland Security Presidential Directive/HSPD-20. or "Posse Commitatus" or the "S.3930, the Military Commissions Act of 2006" or the irrational and irresponsible plan to attack Iran, or letting Gonzalez walk away after lying to Congress without so much as a reprimand. It is about doing nothing to stop Karl Rove and his plan to steal the vote in '08... and it is about allowing the Republicons "spin" to frame the consequences of the Dick's outing of Valerie Plame...

It is about this Administration funding war profiteers like Haliburton and mercenaries like Blackwater and about the FACT that the DoJ has been seriously compromised and our standing in the world both financial and ethical has been destroyed. It is about their absolute REFUSAL to do anything other than threaten to hold this Administration accountable on any of these issues. BushCo continues to lie and use fear to set the Neo-Con agenda and they allow his reprehensible and dangerous rhetoric to go unchallenged. The Bush White House IGNORES Congressional subpoenas and the Democratic Congress does nothing.

Impeachment is a Constitutional remedy for high crimes and misdemeanors and yet the Dems REFUSE to even consider it as this administration continues to sell US down the river. I have yet to hear more than a very few of our Dem leaders address these very serious issues in plain and truthful language. I am not whining I am pissed and very worried.


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE :banghead:





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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Alberto is not going to buck shrub. Unlike John Dean who decided to put country over the one who put
him in the AG seat. Why is it people seem to forget that?
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solara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Then Gonzalez should be indicted for lying to Congress
the Bush administration is not above the law.


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE :banghead:
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. I believe John Dean was White House Counsel to...
... the President, not AG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dean

He wrote an excellent letter recently offering some insight on what Congress could do:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
48. I believe some are Civics-deprived
I hate the Occupation as the next person and have been in the streets protesting for years, but legislation to end the Occupation simply needs votes for it all to happen.

Anyone who complains about that fact is simply not saavy on how democracy works... you need votes to make change unless you plan on storming the Gates, which would be met with certain death.

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Heath Hatcher Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Your right basically
You need the votes and since the votes weren't there right now for a withdrawal they had to move on, but that will change.

I may of not been like Zulchzulu and took civics in high school(they didn't offer it) but I did take political science and knew so much outside about politics I even taught the class for a day so I think I know what i'm talking about regarding the war and Government.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. They don't have the votes to override a veto...
...but why not have all Dems simply refuse to support a bill that doesn't have a withdrawal timetable that must be adhered to?

Wouldn't that result in something of a stalemate, which would mean BushCo doesn't get the 100 billion plus and therefore cannot continue the war? Isn't money for withdrawal already in the pipeline?

I think Dem leadership's failure to do this is why the rank-and-file are so angry -- they were in the driver's seat and decided to let the drunken, AWOL, Chimp drive instead.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
52. Looks like both parties share that 30% of people who will follow them anywhere.
Edited on Thu May-24-07 03:36 AM by Forkboy
The "can do no wrong" base. :eyes:
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. no we don't follow blindly but i am not going to give the
freeps and repukes ammo by trying to divide my party.....
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
53. this explains everything...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b55gYMg-VIk

all I wanted was a Pepsi
and she wouldn't give it to me...
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hijinx87 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
58. I am usually in the "we are overreacting" camp.

but this is exactly why the democrats were sent to washington to
begin with.

this is an abject failure in leadership. reid/pelosi should have
gone to the mat on this one.

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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
59. Actually, I liked the threads about Boner's *Boo-Hoo Moment*






I found them .... inspirational.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:





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