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C-Span Independent caller refers to * as a "draft-dodging closet queen,"

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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 06:30 AM
Original message
C-Span Independent caller refers to * as a "draft-dodging closet queen,"
subsequent Republican caller whines that C-Span shouldn't allow "that kind of language" to be aired.

Scully, of course, makes no comment either time except to thank each man for his call.
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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Republican't caller
probably has no problem with allowing lies originating in the RW echo chamber to make their way onto the show, however.
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Of course not. IIRC he went on to
float a couple of those tired ol' whoppers himself.
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NormanYorkstein Donating Member (762 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. how is this any different than what Ann Coulter said?
about Edwards? It's a hateful homophobic slur and it's no better when used against Bush or Republicans.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. yeah but it's about the ''hypocrisy'' when it's said on du.
:sarcasm:
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A wise Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bus not only is a draft dodger
but should be classified as a deserter. As for closet queen, I think that title belongs to ROVE!!
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think Bush and Rove both qualify. As for the "hypocrisy"
issue raised in an earlier post, you're damn straight (you'll pardon the expression) it's about the hypocrisy, for me anyway, and for all I know for the C-Span caller as well.




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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Why Rove? Is he unable to keep constrain himself around bald men,
Edited on Mon Apr-09-07 09:18 AM by Benhurst
uncontrollably reaching out to fondle their heads?

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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. Followup: WJ caller--dunno which line--just asks if he's on the air.
Scully says yes, so the guy simply says "F**k."

Of course Scully immediately hangs up on him, muttering something like, "Speaking of inappropriate language..."

I always wonder what kind of yarn these guys give the screeners in order to get on the air in the first place. :rofl:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. I can't help but laugh at remarks like that--pointing to Bush's cowardice and
making aspersions on his manhood--because there is such truth in it.

But there is also something wrong with it, that I haven't been able to quite put my finger on.

And I think it is this: I consider men who reject war and who reject the brutal "Clint Eastwood" model of manhood to be admirable, and in many cases very courageous. There can be--and often is--tremendous moral courage in pacifism. For instance, consider Martin Luther King or Gandhi--and their followers--permitting themselves to be beaten without fighting back. Both men--and many who followed them--believed that they were saving their persecutors by not striking back with violence. They were giving those who beat them up a chance to see themselves and reflect on their behavior. If they fought back, then the violent ones--the ones who were enforcing society's oppression--would feel justified in their behavior.

Similarly, many of the "draft-dodgers" of the 1960s were very courageous people. They refused to serve in an unjust war. And most suffered consequences--exile, jail, ridicule. What I am saying is that moral courage is the equal of physical courage. And moral courage is sometimes even harder than physical courage. Now, it doesn't appear to me that Bush or Chaney were making a moral choice, in evading military service during Vietnam. But calling them "draft dodgers" makes it sound like "draft dodging" is inherently cowardly, when it is far from that, in my experience.

So, all other things aside, I don't begrudge Bush or Cheney their draft-dodging in the context of the Vietnam War.* What is objectionable in Bush and Cheney is their HYPOCRISY, and what appears to be a complete and total lack of moral courage, or any ethical sense at all.

They lie. They cheat. They steal. They hide behind their wealth and power. They send others to their deaths, and inflict monstrous harm on the innocent, for no good reason--to steal other peoples' oil. They torture. They oppress. They strut. They bluster. They are empty sacks. Not because they didn't serve in that other horrendously unjust war--but because they are disreputable people. Bullies. Thugs.

In sum, I don't consider refusal of military service--or refusal to kill others, or refusal to fight--to be inherently cowardly. It might be much more courageous to flee to Canada and raise a family, and be a good Dad to your kids--and contribute some thought and energy to world peace. The courage of LIFE. The courage to refuse to be bullied into killing, or to becoming a cog in a great killing machine--especially in a cause that makes no sense whatever.

This kind of courage--moral courage--can be exhibited (and has been exhibited)--by soldiers as well. Soldiers who refuse to commit atrocities, who refuse to obey wrongful orders, and persons who are part of the war machine establishment who draw ethical lines, at peril of their careers, or even at peril of their freedom or their lives. Also, whistleblowers. Those who exposed the Abu Ghraib torture. Those insiders who exposed the lies Bush/Cheney were telling to justify a completely unjustifiable war. The military jag lawyers who fought an inside battle against torturing prisoners.

There are all kinds of courage. The problem is that Bush and Cheney have exhibited NONE of them. They stole two elections to gain and keep power, and they use that power without any legitimacy, or moral authority. They use their power like cowards. They hide behind it. They parade it before them. And they surround themselves with sycophants and yes-men, and don't even have the courage of ordinary politicians, to engage in debate, or defend their actions. Typical of them was their refusal to testify under oath to the 9/11 Commission. They insisted that it be behind closed doors, with no recording or note-taking, and the two of them together, no doubt to cover each other's lies. They cannot face other people--Congress, the voters--without layers of protection. They are not forthcoming. They are sneaky and evasive. And it is this--their lack of moral courage--that is much more objectionable than their evasion of military service--although I can understand how some folks feel about their sending OTHERS to their deaths, on the basis of lies and greed, while they themselves used draft exemptions (Cheney) or "champagne" service (Bush--who couldn't even do that--he went AWOL) to avoid fighting in Vietnam.

-----------------



*(And I wouldn't disparage pacifism or a refusal to kill in ANY war situation. Also, I don't consider the natural reaction to war, that you don't want to be in it--you don't want to kill, you don't want to be killed--to be cowardice. A person may be courageous in many ways, but break under the stress of modern warfare. And that breakdown may be their moral courage arising--their deepest beliefs against, and revulsion at, mechanized killing, arising from the depths of their being, and depriving them of the ability of participate. The inability to kill is not necessarily cowardice; and the willingness to kill is not necessarily courage. Modern warfare is a horrible thing. It should be eliminated from the face of the earth. The generals and those who need cannon fodder for their power games try to perpetrate the myth that killing = manhood, and that those who "are not up to it" are cowards. But look what this myth has brought us! Two million slaughtered in Vietnam. A half a million dead in Iraq. Are these examples of "manhood" or are they examples of brainwashing?)
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-09-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Eloquent, terrific post. I can only add that to the best of my
rather hazy recollection--I was half-asleep at the time and had automatically tuned this caller out as soon as I heard his deep, hyper masculine voice, figuring he was just another blowhard chickenhawk (& how's that for stereotyping?)--the guy had gone on to make at least some of the same points that you have, albeit less eloquently. I was listening with only half an ear to most of the rest of his call--too busy firing up the laptop to see what the DU was saying--and tuned back in just in time to hear him say the Bushies had deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen, LIHOP I believe it's called?

So I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that his definition of "draft dodger" is similar to mine: someone, like Junior, who just loves war--any war--as long as he himself doesn't have to fight it. I don't consider conscientious objectors, or the guys who would have volunteered for WWII just as their fathers did, but who recognized that Vietnam was a crock--to be draft dodgers. In other words, Bush is a draft dodger, Clinton isn't. ;-)

Same with the "closet queen" crack. If Bush, Rove et al. were openly gay I'd have no problem with it--but of course if they were all openly gay conscientious objectors they'd probably be Democrats and we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place, would we?

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I suspect that if you could sit down with this guy over a beer, he would probably
admit that he had nothing against draft-dodgers or closet queens--or any of the other folks who get disparaged with fairy names for not fulfilling the phony requirements of "manhood." He was just falling back on colloquial expressions, and social myths, to say the worst thing he could about Bush, that he is a hypocrite and a coward. But we need to beware of the language we use to point that out. This bothered me throughout the "Swiftboat"/AWOL fracas during the election. Was Kerry especially noble for having killed Vietnamese peasants, who had done absolutely nothing to harm us or our country? No! But he was a kid--like most of the soldiers--and showed courage in the situation he found himself in. I'd give him credit for that--for being a leader, for protecting his men. But I kind of puked when he got up at the podium at the Dem Nat'l Convention, with his little salute and "reporting for duty." Sorry, John, but Vietnam was a horror, and here we are, faced with another horror, and saluting and "reporting for duty" are not what is needed. REBELLION is what is needed! That other John Kerry of the Winter Soldier Hearings was what was needed.

Was Bush noble for having his billionaire parents buy him "champagne" service, to get out of the draft? Of course not. And the turds in the White House knew it, and took devious action to prevent it from being an issue. And the hypocrisy of Bush getting into a flight suit, and landing on the deck of a carrier, with that "Mission Accomplished" banner, was unbelievable. Mr. AWOL! I can understand the revulsion of REAL military personnel, and of people who really did suffer danger and trauma in war, at that disgusting performance. But what if Bush had actually flown a plane in Vietnam, and dropped napalm on children and peasant villages, and had put himself in danger from their rebellious anti-aircraft guns? Would that have redeemed him? Not in my opinion. However, if he HAD been in the same spot as other draftees and enlisteds--forced to fight that horrible war--he likely would NEVER have invaded Iraq. People who really know war never want it to be repeated. You don't have to experience war to understand its horror and to be against it. But people who DO experience it mostly come back greatly sobered, and wishing to spare others that nightmare. That's one good reason to have people with military service in command of a big military machine, if you're going to have one. Because they are RELUCTANT to use it. They know its limits. And they know that it MUST be a last resort.

The REAL issues never came out, in that screwed up, stolen election. That Vietnam War was A LESSON. It was not something to be proud of. It was horrible. Kerry should have pointed to it as something that should never been allowed to happen again. Another wrongful invasion. Another US-instigated civil war. Another manipulated, deceitful quagmire, with one purpose: war profiteering! He shouldn't have been touting his medals. He should have been throwing them over the White House fence AGAIN--this time at Bush.

And Bush should have been pilloried from one end of the country to the other for starting an unnecessary, unjust, greed-driven war--and hijacking the courage and professionalism of the majority US military personnel for financial profit. So what if he was fuckup as a kid? He wasn't the first rich kid to benefit from his parents' wealth, and he won't be the last. It's what he DID, in March 2003, that matters. You might say the one thing predicted the other, but that is not necessarily true. Being a fuckup in the military can be a GOOD sign. It can even been a sign of leadership. The modern military is an unnatural institution and it is often wrong. Intelligent, creative, well-meaning people often hate military service. And if you are 20 years old, you might express that in self-destructive ways--getting drunk, doing drugs, going AWOL, disobeying orders. I wouldn't hold this against anyone--even Bush--if they turned out to be decent human beings. The trouble is that he didn't.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. But, it's okay for
fuckin' limpballs to do it?

DDDQ!!
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