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Lincoln Quote is Circling Still - Please restrain me...

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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:33 PM
Original message
Lincoln Quote is Circling Still - Please restrain me...
OMG, I'm trying to stop laughing. A mom on my parenting debate board posted this in a "Supporting the Troops/Supporting the War" debate thread this morning. I really hope she was joking, but I highly doubt it given who the poster is. I had to respond asking her if it was a joke (to give her an ignorance pass), and linked her to factcheck.org.



You should have seen the Pelosi debate thread we had. It took two pages of debating, AFTER I posted the response stating who actually requested the plane, before anyone would actually read that it wasn't her.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of course, I would point out that
there has been no declaration of war.

This country is not at war.

And we are certainly not in a civil war with rebel armies less than 100 miles from the capitol, as we were in Lincoln's war.
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KingofNewOrleans Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I would merely point out
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 02:13 PM by KingofNewOrleans
that it's a fake phony invented quote.

Actually, I would add that any person you uses this quote is just looking for justification for their Anti-American Anti-Constitutional beliefs. They are a disgrace to our country and our form of governance.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Tell her to read more. From wikipedia:
Antiwar activist
Lincoln in the 1840s
Lincoln in the 1840s

In 1846, Lincoln was elected to a term in the U.S. House of Representatives. A staunch Whig, Lincoln often referred to party leader Henry Clay as his political idol. As a freshman House member, Lincoln was not a particularly powerful or influential figure in Congress. He spoke out against the Mexican-American War, which he attributed to President Polk's desire for "military glory that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood." Besides this rhetoric, he also directly challenged Polk's claims as to the boundary of Texas.<11> Lincoln was among the 82 Whigs in January 1848 who defeated 81 Democrats in a procedural vote on an amendment to send a routine resolution back to committee with instructions for the committee to add the words "a war unnecessarily and unconstitutionally begun by the President of the United States." The amendment passed, but the bill never reemerged from committee and was never finally voted upon.<12>

Lincoln damaged his reputation by an intemperate speech in the House. He announced, "God of Heaven has forgotten to defend the weak and innocent, and permitted the strong band of murderers and demons from hell to kill men, women, and children, and lay waste and pillage the land of the just." Two weeks later, Polk sent a peace treaty to Congress. No one in Washington paid any attention to Lincoln, but the Democrats orchestrated angry outbursts from all over his district, where the war was popular and many had volunteered. In Morgan County, resolutions were adopted in fervent support of the war and in wrathful denunciation of the "treasonable assaults of guerrillas at home; party demagogues;" slanderers of the President, defenders of the butchery at the Alamo, traducers of the heroism at San Jacinto. Lincoln's law partner William Herndon warned Lincoln that the damage was mounting and irreparable; Lincoln himself was despondent, and he decided not to run for reelection. In the fall 1848 election, he campaigned vigorously for Zachary Taylor, the successful general whose atrocities he had denounced in January. Lincoln's attacks on Polk and Taylor came back to haunt him during the Civil War and indeed was held against him when he applied for a major patronage job from the new Taylor administration. Instead Taylor's people offered Lincoln patronage jobs in remote Oregon Territory. Acceptance would end his career in the fast-growing state of Illinois, so he declined. Returning instead to Springfield, Lincoln gave up politics and turned his energies to making a living as an attorney, which involved grueling travels on horseback from county courthouse to county courthouse.<13>

OTOH, perhaps she'd prefer to stay silly.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Also point out
that according to the Oxford English Dictionary the word saboteur was first used in print in 1921. If Mr Lincoln did say or write those exact words, then there would be a written record and the OED would have so noted his quote or a quote previous to his.

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KingofNewOrleans Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. And we all know a true American like Lincoln
would never have used a French word anyway.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Of course. He would have used 'Quisling' instead of saboteur. n/t
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. email this link to the stupid woman -
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jellybeancurse Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Even IF Lincoln did say it...
Still makes it a absolutely moronic thing to say. Just would show Lincoln to be a free speech hating, megalomaniac bent on hanging people he disagrees with. :shrug:
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You can't mean .... like G. Bush?!!!? n/t
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jellybeancurse Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Its just the "if your firends jumped off a bridge" argument
in disguise. So what if X person said Y? Does that lend some weight to the argument morally or ethically? NO. So if Lincoln said "all people who think stovepipe hats are silly, should be shot, hanged, or possibly spanked." Does that mean we have to listen to him? NO. We weigh the evidence and the moral positions and decide. We are under no obligation to follow or believe Lincoln because...(and this is the crux of the matter by mentioning him at all) well...he is Lincoln.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Or the argument from authority ploy.
Lincoln would have been the first to say he wasn't the voice of God.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's a few to send back to her
Pick and choose as you please, this is a partial list of my collection.

Republican Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President:
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

-----------------------------------------------

Republican Dwight D. Eisenhower, from his farewell address, 1961:
"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

-----------------------------------------------

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger, quoted in Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POWs in Vietnam

------------------------------------

"The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press-- in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years."

Adolph Hitler


------------------------------------------------


Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war.... That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Herman Goering, during the Neurenberg trials.

-------------------------------------------------

"If we let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely,
and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy but just wage total war, our children will sing great songs about us years from now."

- Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle (One of the PNAC founders, Chairman of the Defense Policy Board, and yes, that is his real nickname in DC!)

-------------------------------------------------

From the March 18 Good Morning America interview with former First Lady Barbara Bush, as quoted by Jimmy Breslin, when she was asked if she and former President Bush watched television:


"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many, what day it's going to happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Oh, I mean, it's, not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

---------------------------------------------------

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just as long as I'm the dictator."---George W. Bush, 18 December 2000

---------------------------------------------------

"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
- Abraham Lincoln

"Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure."

"Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."

"Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution of the United States as our fathers made it inviolate. The people of the United States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."

"If once you forfeit the confidence of your fellow-citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem."

~President Abraham Lincoln

-------------------------------------------------

"No man is justified in doing evil on the ground of expedience."

It is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.

"That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

~President Theodore Roosevelt

---------------------------------------------------
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thank you very much.
I did pass on some of those quotes ;)

So far though, only the dems are commenting after that quote was posted. I highly doubt she'll respond back. Of course, I've been wrong on the level of ignorance some people insist on portraying in those debates in the past :lol:
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