To all Political Advisers here at DU....

[Flabbergasted]

I find it extremely reprehensible to put down people that voted for Nader, the person they wanted for president, instead of Gore/""""LIEBERMAN"""".

I hope that everyone here will always vote their conscience instead of playing political manipulation games that some find so important.

I encourage everyone to vote for who they WANT TO WIN.

Blame Nader people can F'off.



(for the record I didn't vote for Nader)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

1. Why?

There is a very special place in hell for people who voted for Nader in 2000. Shit, even Nader should understand that.

[Flabbergasted]

3. Or do you mean the people who didn't vote for great patriot LIEBERMAN.

[Pirate Smile]

13. As in GORE/Lieberman.

Wow, you are right. What a disaster that would have been.

Aren't you glad you didn't get Lieberman and instead got Cheney?

:eyes:

[Flabbergasted]

16. Merely pointing out who would have been running the country.

Comparing Cheney and Lieberman

At least Cheney doesn't put on a front.

[lancdem]

19. Gore would've been president

That's all that matters to me.

[Flabbergasted]

24. I seriously doubt it

[lancdem]

27. I meant Gore headed the ticket

not Lieberman.

[Flabbergasted]

32. ...and Lieb the country.

[Pirate Smile]

22. Gore would have been running the country.

[Flabbergasted]

26. No. Lieberman would have been running the country

[lancdem]

31. What are you talking about?

You make absolutely no sense.

[Flabbergasted]

34. Bush not running country. Cheney running country

Gore not running country. Lieberman running country.

[Pirate Smile]

36. Right because Nader said Bush and Gore were exactly the same so

Gore would have governed just like Bush has.

What color is the sky in your crazy-assed world?:eyes:

Really pathetic.

[Flabbergasted]

39. BTW I could care less about Nader. I've never been a supporter

But I don't buy the political argument. I think its really counter productive.

And once again Gore would have been the figurehead and Lieberman would have probably found a way into war with Iraq. If you want to make predictions so will I.

[rwenos]

23. "At least Cheney doesn't put on a front."

No, Cheney has substituted his fantasy of the reality on the ground in Iraq for reality. If that isn't "putting up a front," what is it? Psychotic hallucinations?

[Flabbergasted]

30. Last time I checked Cheney's approval rating was about 17%.

I don't think too many Americans are confused about the fact that DICK is a DICK.

[rwenos]

33. At Last We Agree on Something n/t

[rwenos]

2. Congratulations, Nader Voters

Your colleagues in New Hampshire, Tennessee and Florida gave us GEORGE W. BUSH in the White House.

Hope you're enjoying your "idealogical purity."

Did you expect hearts and flowers?

[Flabbergasted]

6. Really! I would seriously take a look at Sandra Day O'conner and Diebold.

[rwenos]

9. Them Too, But . . .

If Ralph Nader wasn't such a solipsist, navel-gazing selfish jerk, Al Gore would be President.

Sorry, Mate. Nader was a great investigative lawyer and journalist. But to say he did not DIRECTLY cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000 is simply self-delusion.

Liberalism means seeing the world as it is. Not as you wish it to be.

[Greyhound]

17. Speaking of delusions, maybe you have an infallible power to know

the outcome of alternate history, but those of us not living in an institution may be dubious about your claim to know how things might have worked out. Perhaps you would deign to enlighten us?

[Flabbergasted]

18. Damn Boy/Girl! You got a point!

[rwenos]

20. What I know

is, to be honest, what I recall of the voting results in New Hampshire, Florida and Tennessee. I recall Nader's vote exceeded the margin of "victory" Bush claimed in New Hampshire and Tennessee. I won't dignify the stick-up in Florida by calling it a Bush "victory."

If someone can show me how those Nader votes, if even half of them had gone to Gore, would NOT swing the outcome of the election in those states, I will stand corrected.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Also elections in Florida.

[Flabbergasted]

35. Ok.

I don't buy that argument.

And I still believe playing this political shame game is precisely what the two party system finds ideal.

[Greyhound]

38. Whether you rmemory is correct or not (and I honestly don't know either), you

are engaging in an unrealistic binary scenario with your supposition that all, or most, Nader votes would have fallen to Gore. Even in the supposed two party system we are shackled with, elections are never simply yes/no this candidate or that candidate, there are multiple possibilities and we will never know what would have happened.

As for 2000, we do know that Nader repeatedly stated, throughout his candidacy, that if Gore would address his single issue, the elimination of corporate welfare and disproportional representation, he would drop out. The didn't and neither did he.

As I've pointed out in other posts here, maybe it would be more productive to spend our time looking into the potential weaknesses and vulnerabilities of our own party, and not looking for a scapegoat to blame for our own inadequacies. The fact is that the Gore/Lieberman campaign was an anemic, uninspired, put-up job done by incompetent party hacks, the traitor Donna Brazile foremost among them.

[deutsey]

4. Oh Boy

I agree with you, but I hope you realize you've just lit a powder keg.

:hide:

[Flabbergasted]

8. I've been pissed off about this crap attitude for a while. Screw them.

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. Is Nader running?

.....and if so, toward which border?

[TheCowsCameHome]

57. Self delete

[Double T]

7. Ralph is what HE is, a self centered spoiler who is LARGELY respondsible.........

for the state of where 'WE' are TODAY. I'm NOT bashing ANY voters, ONLY the reprehensible Ralph Nader HIMSELF!!

[Flabbergasted]

11. Obviously untrue. Looking back now I think maybe LIEBERMAN was about as good a choice.

[lancdem]

25. Why are you do hung up on Lieberman?

He was the VP candidate, not the presidential candidate. Plus, Nader promised not to get on the ballot in swing states, such as Florida, and broke that promise. He's an egocentric fool who's made himself a laughingstock. Even he Green Party wants nothing to do with him.

[Flabbergasted]

37. Last thing I heard was Demos weren't lining up to see Lieberman Speak. nt

[AtomicKitten]

10. I'm pretty sure telling a select group of folks at DU to F'off

is against DU rules.

[rwenos]

12. Tilting at Windmills, Too

I wonder at your motivation. What did you EXPECT?

[Flabbergasted]

14. Why? Should I say go to Hell?

[rwenos]

15. Have a take; don't suck

With apologies to Jim Rome. Wouldn't that make more sense than setting off a flame war?

[Flabbergasted]

21. Internally I have a major issue with people saying "voting your Conscience" is wrong

If so it is also wrong to vote only out political game playing.

[rwenos]

29. So That's Your Issue

The two-party system sucks . . . except when it buffers this country against extremists of either ideological side. Maybe you have a personal issue with life forcing choices on you. Well, got any kids? Got any other family responsibilities? Got rent to pay every month? Life is made up of compromises. Nader's normative bleat "but I should be trying to get as many votes as possible" is the whimper of a demanding child, who wants to skip the broccoli but still have ice cream for dessert.

[Flabbergasted]

40. Not in the least. I am willing to ask questions about the nature of voting and democracy.

The answer I get is being brave enough to vote your view is true political freedom.

[rwenos]

47. And I and the others here are willing to answer them (nt)

[Flabbergasted]

49. What was the question?

[rwenos]

55. The One You Asked . . .

. . . i.e., why do Democrats blame Ralph Nader for the Bush presidency.

My friend, you can cut this any way you want, and make any argument you want speculating about whether the Nader voters were new voters, or that they may have not voted at all. That is pure speculation also. The fact is that most Nader voters were much more sympathetic to Al Gore than to George Bush. And Nader himself said he'd rather have Bush win, and get a big backlash at the next election (GREAT idea, that!), than have Al Gore be president. My only point, after all the carping and fencing back and forth, is that Nader cost Gore the election. Nader and his supporters should be honest enough with themselves to admit that.

[Flabbergasted]

59. Could care less what Nader said. I did not vote for him.

On the other hand maybe we should really be blaming the Libertarians. If they had voted for Gore then perhaps we would be better off.

BTW you missed the main question?

[mzmolly]

28. Nader was a political opponent of Democrats, why should he be treated like an ally?

Gore/LIEBERMAN was a FAR BETTER TICKET THAN BUSH/CHENEY.

[Flabbergasted]

44. I never said that nor that I am a party line corporate democrat.

[mzmolly]

50. I'm a practical democrat, lable yourself as you wish.

In the words of the great Molly Ivins "Vote with your heart in the primary, and vote with your head in the general election." (paraphrased) ;) But, that's where I'm at.

[Flabbergasted]

54. And thats fine but if someone doesn't agree with you quit shaming them into thinking that

our circumstances are their fault.

[mzmolly]

58. I think anyone who played a role in assisting in a Bush win should take responsibility.

Repentant Nader voters are forgiven. ;)

[Flabbergasted]

60. Did you do everything you possible could within your power to keep Bush out

of office?

Have you done everything you can to impeach him?

[mzmolly]

61. Yes on the first,

and I'm not in a position to impeach him.

[Flabbergasted]

62. My point is: Why not blame my mom; she still has no clue. Voted for Gore!

Or i.e. your greedy uncle. Or anyone who is ignorant?

[mzmolly]

63. Did your Mom lie about Gore?

If she did consider her "blamed."

[Flabbergasted]

65. That was funny...Thanks. I'm trying to say we should not totally block off the

idea of voting out of conscience. Its a really important thing. I don't buy the blame game. I think its garbage and silly.

[proud patriot]

41. I'm locking this thread

An exteme group attack is contained in the original post .

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Flabbergasted]

42. An exteme group attack is contained in the original post .?

Sorry

[k_jerome]

43. thought this thread was locked??? nt.

[Flabbergasted]

45. Why not have this discussion?

[k_jerome]

48. just saw the message that the thread was locked by admin....

thought it strange.

[Flabbergasted]

51. I know and I'm saying we should have this discussion.

[k_jerome]

53. i have no problem with that. nt.

[mzmolly]

64. Same reason we don't discuss why we shouldn't "blame Bush?"

That's my guess.

[AtomicKitten]

46. soft restraints?

[Pirate Smile]

52. Post 41 says it is locked but I guess not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3118647&mesg_id=3118781

[Flabbergasted]

56. Let us be candid.

[proud patriot]

66. Whoops Lock take 2

the original post contains an extreme group attack.

proud patriot Moderator
democratic Underground