Hillary's pollster, Mark Penn, blasts Gore and Kerry. THIS Mark Penn? The irony.

[madfloridian]

I really see no need for this kind of thing yet. He is offically with Hillary's campaign, so he speaks for her. Kerry and Gore have not declared, so this was not necessary. The irony of it is what Penn's company does. More after the article.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-ushil...

She went on to say her daughter, Chelsea, and her husband, Bill, are "my greatest advisers."

But it was Penn who stated that no other Democrat is tough enough to beat back Sen. John McCain or former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani.

In a clear reference to Obama's lack of political experience on the national stage, Penn wrote: "Some of the commentators look at the ratings of people who have not yet been in the cross-fire, and say they might have a better chance. Recent history shows the opposite."

He then set his sights on Sen. John Kerry and former Vice President Al Gore, who also might run in 2008. "The last two Democratic presidential candidates started out with high favorable ratings and ended up on Election Day - and today - far more polarizing and disliked nationally," said the pollster, who cut his teeth on President Bill Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign.

An Obama spokesman had no comment. Attempts to contact Edwards, Kerry and Gore weren't successful.

That is not true. That is just saying stuff and pretending it is.

This Mark Penn, recently seen in Venezuela.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

"In 1999, when the U.S.-led bombing campaign in Serbia didn't get rid of Slobodan Milosovic, Washington changed its strategy. U.S. intelligence organized a $77 million effort to oust Milosovic through the ballot box. They sent in CIA front organizations funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). Instead of guns and bombs, these U.S. forces were armed with fax machines, computers, and perhaps most importantly, sophisticated surveys done by the Washington-based polling firm Penn, Schoen & Berland.(1) Their mission: to take down Milosovic by strengthening opposition groups."

In his article, "Coup D'etat in Disguise," Jonathan Mowat described how these "polls" work:

"Penn, Schoen and Berland (PSB) has played a pioneering role in the use of polling operations, especially "exit polls," in facilitating coups. Its primary mission is to shape the perception that the group installed into power in a targeted country has broad popular support...the deployment of polling agencies' "exit polls" broadcast on international television...give the false impression of massive vote-fraud by the ruling party, to put targeted states on the defensive."(4)

The U.S. is already firmly entrenched in Venezuela with "democracy promotion" organizations such as the NED, USAID, and yes, once again, Penn, Schoen & Berland. These actors have teamed up with major opposition groups to map out and execute their strategy. The objective will be to create a situation like in Ukraine in 2004: huge protests against the elections and against the government in order to cause chaos and instability."

Also included at the link is the trailer for the movie about the work that the Greenberg, Carville, Shrum group did in Bolivia.

So this is how it is going to be.

[blm]

1. How did Tonya Harding do after her goons tried to effect the field of competitors?

.

[madfloridian]

5. Not so good.

Go here, blm, and scroll down to the 3rd or 4th post. Kind of not so nice, but kind of funny. I guess the web person couldn't resist it. Carville and Begala already went after Dean, and Carville says the Clintons did not call him to stop it.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/

[havocmom]

2. .

[Clark2008]

3. I like the idea of using education over weaponry to promote

democracy, but, uhhhh.... isn't Venezuela already a democracy?

[bling bling]

4. That doesn't qualify as "blasting" in my book. n/t

[madfloridian]

7. It does under the general definition of "blasting".

Not going to change the word. It stands.

[leveymg]

14. Is that the technical term for this sort of thing?

Your diary post about PSB and its involvement in psychological warfare abroad is extremely informative. Can you post some more links in this thread so we can read additional background?

Thanks!

[madfloridian]

26. Here's a little more about both companies.

Mark Penn's analysis of why Gore lost..as seen in the light of his work in
Venezuela.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

MyDD and FDL did reviews of Our Brand is Crisis
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Another review of Our Brand is Crisis
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Bolivia trying to extradite the guy Carville's group aided...from the US
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

[leveymg]

30. Thanks for those!

I'll probably end up posting again about this topic of this sort of doemstic political blowback from foreign intelligence operations.

[Deep13]

8. Criticism now = blasting or at least attacking, I guess.

[madfloridian]

11. Ok, how about "insulted" two good men?

Who have not even declared? Blasting suits, though, as it was meant pre-emptively.

[Deep13]

13. Wrong business to be complaining of insults.

[madfloridian]

16. So get rid of the humanity?

Ok, fine by me. I'm ready.

[Deep13]

17. How does one get rid of humanity in a profession consisting of humans?

[MH1]

23. Right business to be complaining about LIES and LIARS. n/t

[rinsd]

18. This is an insult?

"The last two Democratic presidential candidates started out with high favorable ratings and ended up on Election Day - and today - far more polarizing and disliked nationally,"

How so? Its true. Both men are now considered far more polarizing and are more disliked than when they first started their Prez runs.

[madfloridian]

19. Yes.

It is.

[rinsd]

22. How so?

How is it an insult to state what happened to these fine men after the Mighty Wurlizter was thru with them?


Now the last line in the article is a bit catty but I see nothing insulting about the line dealing with Gore and Kerry.

[catgirl]

46. What?????

Gore is more disliked? I beg to differ. Even my
conservative dad respects him now AND will
most likely vote for him if he runs! Think about
how people with children and grandchilden feel
about him. Dislike someone who dares to speak
up about a global crisis?

And what has Hillary done for anyone lately, or ever
for that matter? She jumps on the bandwagon when
it's convenient regardless of the circumstances. I'm
sorry, she can never redeem herself to me, and stuff
like this is only expected from someone like her. Do
I sound angry?

[rinsd]

47. Here are some polling numbers

With all due respect to your father, I tend rely on these barometers vs. friends/family etc.

http://www.pollster.com/charles_franklin/pres08_new_cbs...

[madfloridian]

48. Gore is drawing a crowd of 12,000 in Idaho.

With all due respect to you. He is drawing huge crowds everywhere he goes.

[rinsd]

50. With all due respect, Howard Dean was drawing huge crowds

Thta's not saying Gore isn't viable or electable or anything like that.

That's something that will likely have to wait until he actually decides to run.

But the poll does show, in fact gives credence to, Penn's original supposition dealing with Gore and Kerry that they are no longer held in the esteem they once were is not far off.

[madfloridian]

52. It was a hit on two good men who have not announced.

Penn needs to look to his own activities. So does Carville, so does Shrum. Doesn't it bother you that those guys are so close to Hillary and doing such questionable things in other countries.

Spare me a defense of NED, because taxpayer money goes to them for them to meddle in other countries.

We have enough problems here at home.

Thanks also for the gratitous, back-handed slap at Dean. That was not needed either. Have you heard he's not running?

But since you brought it up, he drew up to 15,000, and 10 and 11 thousand during the summer tour of 03. It was mainly Iowa that did not like his candor.....so he was gone.

But he's back.

There is a group in the party respresented here that only knows insults. Gore is drawing 12,000 in Boise, and you are putting it down as nothing.

Tell me more about that pollster. Why do you put so much credence in that guy? I don't put that much credence in any one taking polls. Hillary's Penn had Chavez's opponent up to with in 6 points of him. It was so far off from the other polls it was pathetic.

[rinsd]

53. WTF MF?

"Thanks also for the gratitous, back-handed slap at Dean. That was not needed either."

What? Dean had large crowds but he didn't win. Suddenly its a backhanded slap to state a fact? But its ok for you to spent countless threads demonizing Clinton for things her supposed flaks say? Sorry MF but that's absurd.

"There is a group in the party respresented here that only knows insults. Gore is drawing 12,000 in Boise, and you are putting it down as nothing."

Because 12,000 people showing up to hear you speak 2 years before an election that you aren't even running in means nothing in terms of the election. Its great that people came to see Al speak. And a large crowd(s) means he will likely fare well should he run but the crowd itself does not mean there are no people who view him unfavorabley. In fact quite a few do. And if DUers are going to make the point that Hillary is so despised as to be unelectable, I think other potential DU favs are fair game for comparison.

"Tell me more about that pollster. Why do you put so much credence in that guy? I don't put that much credence in any one taking polls. "

I don't put credence in the pollster referred to just that his statement was not an insult/smear etc. The poll I cited was not his. And as someone interested in social science, I do put more stock in polls and not anecdotes about someone's father or the size of a crowd.

[madfloridian]

54. Her "flaks" officially now speak for her.

It's ok, you got a lot of digs in just then.

[catgirl]

68. How About DU Polls? Gore Tops Them All

Your statement "And a large crowd(s)....does not mean there are no people
who view him unfavorabley. In fact quite a few do." Is that a fact?

So, did you ask the crowd in Idaho yourself? I think YOU'RE the one
who favors Al Gore unfavorabley.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catgirl]

61. I Trust Real People Over Polls

Anyone who "tend rely on these barometers", especially
this early in the game, should note this when making
statements like yours, so viewers can judge for themselves
whether to take them seriously....which I certainly don't.

[rinsd]

65. Wow so I can't be taken seriously

When I actually present evidence for my claims?

But you talked to your grandfather so its all settled?

[catgirl]

69. No, My Grandfather's Not Alive

Just EVERYBODY I've talked to, but YOU, likes Gore.

[rinsd]

74. LOL. I have no problem with Gore.

I just recognize the reality that there are quite a few people that do not like him.

"Just EVERYBODY I've talked to, but YOU, likes Gore."

This qualifies as one of the dumbest retorts anyone has ever posted on DU.

[catgirl]

63. ONE POLL

One skewed poll

[rinsd]

64. Very well here's a link to dozens of polls. And skewed? On what basis?

You can't just scream skewed or bias at a poll that doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

Gore's negatives in the last few years have been in the 40's.

Here's the link

http://www.pollingreport.com/G.htm

[catgirl]

67. Blows Giuliani Away

[marmar]

6. Why is he attacking people who haven't even put together exploratory committees?

I soooo hope Al Gore runs.

[leveymg]

9. Where does electioneering end and psywar operations begin? Same people, same

techniques apply. Is PSB going to do a number on the other Democratic contenders?

Knowing that her pollster is involved in CIA-led destabilization campaigns abroad gives me diminished confidence in the integrity of Hillary's campaign.

[KoKo]

28. Agree, and putting that with her Ruppert Murdoch alliance...it

seems more and more that Hillary is not just trying to be "bi-partisan" its that she is partisan and for the wrong party, imho.

Every time I try to think of a reason why having Bill and Hillary back in the White House might be acceptable...another of her "alliances" comes up that does make one wonder what is going on here.

[katsy]

10. If a candidate has something to say about their opposition...

I have no problem with that as long as we don't get into smearing one another (meaning Dem vs Dem).

I just wish these loud mouthed "consultants" would STFU.

They add nothing to political discourse.

[madfloridian]

15. Exactly....get rid of the hit men. Let them have discourse one to one.

You are right.

[katsy]

20. These hit men damage the party as a whole.

If Senator Clinton has a message, she should step up to the plate and say her peace.

Why damage otherwise good Democrats who have so much to offer the party?

This asshole stated that Mr. Gore and Senator Kerry are LOSERS. Whether or not that was his message... that is what will stick with the average voter who doesn't pay attention to the agenda of the hit men behind the curtain.

[rinsd]

37. So should bloggers that hate Hillary STFU?

I am speaking of Sirota and Gilliard here.

[leveymg]

21. The media consultants bring expertise learned from psywar programs

and apply them to domestic electoral politics. It's worked well in the past. People who work with Karl Rove, and Lee Atwater before him, had a lot of foreign intelligence experience. This is extremely disturbing, but it's probably pretty widespread.

One of the more comprehensive accountings of the spooks in the Bush election team was compiled by Doug McDaniel:

http://dougmcdaniel.blogspot.com/2005/07/predicting-rov...

Karl Rove

Senior Advisor to President George W. Bush

CRNC National Chairman 1973-1974

CRNC Executive Director 1970-1972

In the years of the Watergage scandal, Rove's career as a big-time political handler began with a motley crew of friends and associates. He was chairman of the College Republican National Committee when George Herbert Walker Bush was Republican National Committee in 1973. He won the Chairmanship of the College Republicans in heated a race against Terry Dolan and Bob Edgeworth. The late Lee Atwater, who later became famous as the political attack dog for the Reagan-Bush team, managed Rove's campaign. Dolan went on to become a Soft Money pioneer by helping form the National Conservative Political Action Committee, then died of AIDS in 1986 at age 36. Dolan's advisers in his loss to Rove were Charlie Black, Paul Manafort and Roger Stone. Those three were later instrumental in the success of Ronald Reagan's 1984 campaign. Atwater joined the consulting firm of Black, Manafort and Stone after the '84 election. The firm later worked for the 1988 Bush-Quayle campaign. Two of Nixon's dirty tricksters also worked for Bush-Quayle: Frederick Malek, Bush's Republican National Committee rep, who had compiled lists of Jews in the Bureau of Labor Statistics as part of Nixon's investigation of a "Jewish Cabal;" and Dwight Chapin, who was jailed for lying to a grand jury about hiring Donald Sigretti to disrupt the 1972 Democratic primary campaign of Senator Edward Muskie. Chapin worked under Manafort in 1988. The firm's other clients included drug-connected Bahamian Prime Minister Oscar Pindling, Philippine dictator Ferdinand Marcos, and UNITA, the South African-supported Angolan rebel group led by CIA asset Jonas Savimbi. Lee Atwater lobbied for UNITA. All of which began when Atwater was introduced to George Bush in 1973, by his good friend Karl Rove. In 1980, Bush hired Rove to help him run for president. He was the first person Bush hired for the campaign. Atwater became chairman of the Republican National Committee and one of Bush's closest political advisors. In 1981, when Bush became Reagan's vice president, Rove started his consulting business, Karl Rove & Co. His first direct mail client was Bill Clements, the first Republican in a century to become Texas governor.

Rove began working for Bill Clements in 1978. Four years later, he was working for Phil Gramm, who was in the U.S. House of Representatives as an old-style conservative Texas Democrat. In 1984, Rove helped Gramm, now a Republican, defeat Democrat Lloyd Doggett in the race for U.S. Senate. It was that same year, 1984, that Rove handled direct-mail for the Reagan-Bush campaign. In 1986, he helped Clements become governor a second time. In 1988, Rove helped Tom Phillips to victory, the first Republican elected to the Texas Supreme Court. Ten years later Republicans held all nine seats. Mark McKinnon, a former Democratic consultant who defected to the Bush campaign, called Rove the "Bobby Fischer of politics. He not only sees the board, he sees about 20 moves ahead." For 20 years, Rove has been at the center of a political realignment that has transformed the Lone Star State from one-party Democratic dominance to an era of Republican ascendance. He is smart, aggressive, shrewd and funny, and the rollout of the Bush campaign bears his imprint. His admirers speak of him as the Bush strategist most likely to emerge as a national player from this campaign. "The rest of us are reasonably competent," a Bush supporter says, "but Karl's the real genius of the operation." Rove has been closely advising George W. Bush since he announced he was a candidate for Governor in November 1993. In a state long dominated by Democrats, albeit right-wing ones, every statewide elected office was, by 1999, held by a Republican. Many of those politicians succeeded with the help of Rove. During the November election, the half-dozen candidates he advised were all winners.

Bush has called Rove a close friend and confidant, and a man with good judgment. Rove soon sold his consulting firm to devote himself to the Bush campaign and now serves as Senior Advisor to the President. Sources: Robert Bryce, "The Man Behind the Candidate," The Austin Chronicle, March 18, 1994, pp. 23, 28-30, 32-33; Robert Bryce, "The fab four:Meet the people maneuvering behind the scenes to put George W. Bush in the White House," Salon magazine, June 16, 1999, (link); Paul Brancato, “Bush League” illustrated cards (Forestville, California: Eclipse Enterprises, 1989), pp. 5, 13, 18.

SNIP

[katsy]

27. Bookmarking this.

Thanks for the article.

Don't these guys know the internet community is on to them?

[leveymg]

60. MSM plays a parallel role. NYT eds have no more respect for democratic elections

and outcomes than the pollsters who move effortlessly back and forth between consulting contracts to run major presidential campaigns and CIA-directed projects to unseat elected presidents abroad.

Consider the way the Times covered the attempted coup in Venezuela in the wake of his first election of Hugo Chavez in 2002:

The New York Times editorialized in its April 13, 2002 issue that, “with yesterday’s resignation of President Hugo Chávez, Venezuelan democracy is no longer threatened by a would-be dictator. Mr. Chávez, a ruinous demagogue, stepped down after the military intervened and handed power to a respected business leader, Pedro Carmona.”

The Times editors insisted, contrary to numerous published warnings and reports of a U.S.-inspire coup, that Chávez’s “removal was a purely Venezuelan affair.” Shortly after the coup was put down, John Bellamy Foster reflected on the role of the NYT, as follows:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/nfte0602.htm

Indeed, rather than openly admit that a democratic government had been deposed by a military coup, the Times attempted to give Chávez’s removal legitimacy by declaring that he had “alienated virtually every constituency” and thus had forfeited any claims to be seen as a democratic leader. The fact that the new civic-military junta had within a few hours deposed not only the president but also the National Assembly, the Supreme Court, and nearly all local officials, setting aside the Venezuelan Constitution itself, was news not fit to editorialize upon—as if these were simply steps on the path to true democracy.

The events of the following day, during which popular uprisings swept Chávez back into power, caught the U.S. government and the dominant U.S. media outlets still supporting the failed military coup. Subsequently, the Bush administration and the corporate media did their best to backtrack and save face. By April 16, the New York Times, while still insisting that Chávez has been a “divisive and demagogic leader” (their words for a popular elected leader opposed to Washington’s imperial designs), acknowledged that it had improperly applauded the removal by military means of a democratically elected government. As the Times editorial page put it: “That reaction , which we shared, overlooked the undemocratic manner in which he was removed. Forcibly unseating a democratically elected leader, no matter how badly he has performed, is never something to cheer.”

Nonetheless, the New York Times had cheered—and without for a moment “overlooking” the fact that Chávez had been militarily deposed. It would undoubtedly cheer again if there were another similar reversal in Chávez’s fortunes. How else to respond to a leader that, as the Times pointed out in the same April 16 editorial, has supported left-wing guerillas in an adjacent country, created an alliance with Cuba’s Fidel Castro, and increasingly allowed Venezuela, “one of the world’s largest oil producers” that “desperately needs a steady hand in the presidential palace,” to succumb to the “confrontational agenda” of its lower classes? To act in any other way would not have been in the interests of the U.S. ruling class, which the New York Times, along with the rest of the corporate media, so dutifully serves.

[PATRICK]

12. Hillary on her way down

Starting off with Bush I and Murdoch this doesn't surprise me and will ruin her campaign at the heart eventually. More of interest though, it shows whom she considers her real threat other than having some charismatic newcomer emerge as the leader before the primaries begin. Namely those with the top organizational and money support, experience and ties and name recognition. Newbies can be disposed of as what happened to Dean. Organization and modest support can beat charisma and strong message. Her first targets, if you will, are those those with undeniable leadership and experience, those robbed of actual victories and who have not the rabid negatives associated ideologically with Hillary. Those the party leaders might feel most confident with as proven products in a very strong year across the board are by such logic her greatest rivals. This has little to do with the choice of the people, of course, and it is amusing they have the chutzpah to use a poll. The person with the strongest popularity negatives and weakest enthusiasm will usually be Hillary.

Kind of strange to forget the lessons of Dean when Dean has helped reshape the party- and not the Clintons. But at this stage her motive is clear and her methods and judgment extremely poor, clever and timely though it is to make a show of aggressiveness through a surrogate.

Because it replays the greater tendency of the so-called centrists to openly damage the party and pre-emptively attack their own. For the GOP by their nature this is win/win but for Democrats it is the height of loserdom.

[Dhalgren]

24. It seems totally at odds with this past year's Democratic resurgence

that the Clinton campaign would start from the gate with this kind of posture. The Democratic Party is currently enjoying a strong level of support from the nation, at large; these kinds of low-blow statements, at this point in time, seem not only ill-thought through, but completely counterproductive. From whom is the Clinton campaign seeking support with this sort of thing? It doesn't make good political sense to me, but then I am not a DLC money-man...

[leveymg]

29. You're right. This is the old DLC wing, and they want to take the Party back.

Of course, they'll screw things up and lose the Presidential election -- AGAIN -- but, that's what they're good at.

That's why Rupert Murdoch and a number of Right-wing corporate interests are backing Hillary. She won't run out of money until the general election, that's for sure.

[Jim Sagle]

51. No they don't want to take the party back, they want to KILL it!!!

And they're doing a damn fine job of it.

[blm]

31. The Clinton team wants no chance of an anti-corruption Dem in oval office.

They sabotaged Kerry campaign from within just like they sabotaged Ned Lamont's from within.

Why?

Because the REAL powerbrokers in DC needs a Clinton2 in office to cover up for Bush2 the way Clinton1 did.for Bush1.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[leveymg]

32. Read, Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA (1994)

by Terry Reed, John Cummings. Read it in conjunction with Gary Webb's The Dark Alliance and Hopsicker's Barry and The Boys.

Bibliography: Terry Reed, John Cummings. Compromised: Clinton, Bush, and the CIA. S.P.I. Books/ Shapolsky Publishers Inc.: NY. 1994.

http://www.infocollective.org/reedabstract.html

Biography: Compromised is an autobiography of Terry Reed, a businessman and long-time CIA asset. The book chronicles his interactions with intelligence officials from his early years as a serviceman in Vietnam but focuses on his role in the contra training operation and supply line out of Mena, AK and his involvement in establishing a CIA front corporation in Mexico to serve as a conduit for contra supplies.


SNIP



Findings:



SNIP

The CIA was extremely active in AK in the mid 1980s. (p.54) Reed, Kerr, and Associates was an automation consulting and marketing firm started in AK by Reed. (p.60) Barry Seal, a long-time CIA asset, used the Rich Mountain Aviation at the Inter-Mountain Regional Airport as a base of operations. (p.62) Nella, AK, a secluded spot just outside of Mena, was the site picked by the CIA to train contra pilots. Terry Reed was hired to work as an instructor. (p.61)



The CIA ran 2 covert operations out of Mena: the training of contra pilots in flight and aerial delivery techniques and the transportation of arms and munitions from AK to Central America. These operations were codenamed operation “centaur rose” and “jade bridge”. (p.64)

SNIP


Luis Posada Carriles, code-named Ramon Medina, worked as the camp commander of the flight school in Nella, AK. He was later transferred to El Salvador to manage the day-to-day operations at the Ilopongo air force base. (p.94)



SNIP

The AK Development and Finance Authority (ADFA) was formed by Bill Clinton to act as a bonding firm for the state to finance industrial expansion. Its mission was to lend money at preferred rates either to local companies looking to expand or to recruit out of state manufacturing firms to relocate to AK. ADFA replaced the AK Industrial Development Commission (AIDC), a task force appointed by the Governor to attract outside industry through negotiation with private financial institutes. It is alleged that the 10% profit received from the CIA financed the ADFA. (p.142-4)
Stansfield Turner and William Casey were both proponents of penetrating the business world with CIA assets. Stansfield Turner believed in training CIA recruits and then sending them into the international business community while William Casey believed that accurate information could only be collected by assets legitimately connected to the business world. (p.162)



Terry Reed was hired to set up a tool-manufacturing firm in Mexico to front for the CIA. Reed’s start-up plan was to penetrate the existing machine tool operation through a stock purchase or merger to avoid official scrutiny. Reed used his business experience to develop a supply pipeline that stretched from the U.S. and Europe through Asia and Mexico. Reed later discovered that the warehouse established in his name was being used to funnel cocaine. (p.181-94) Barry Seal, a long time CIA asset involved in numerous gun and drug transfers and responsible for the photographs of Sandinista leaders with the Medellin cartel that spearheaded the ‘narco-terrorist’ conspiracy, confided in Reed that he had concrete evidence that the Bush Boys were involved with the cocaine trade. Seal told Reed he had, “names, dates, places…even got some tape recordings. Fuck, I even got surveillance videos catchin’ the Bush boys red-handed. I consider this stuff my insurance policy.” Seal was later murdered in Florida while testifying in a case for the DEA. (p.213)



SNIP

The predecessor to ADFA, AIDC, referred outside investors to the investment banking firms of Dan Lasaster, Lasaster & Co. Hillary Clinton’s Rose Law Firm handled the legal work of bond counseling. (p.230-2) The Vice President of the Union Bank in Mena, AK conducted an independent investigation of the bank records and found evidence of money-laundering transactions. This evidence was not allowed to be submitted to a Grand Jury. Offshore money was laundered through Arkansas banks during CIA involvement in the region. (p. 239) Jackson T. Stephens, chairman of the bank Stephens & Co., had connections to the First American Bank and helped BCCI establish a branch in the U.S. (p.245)



SNIP

[blm]

34. I know it. BTW, did you see BET's American Gangster on CIA drugrunning story?

Check it out at their site. They ran the documentary last December, but you can catch it at their site.

I hope they rerun it.

[leveymg]

35. No, didn't see that.

What additional info did the documentary give that we might have missed? BTW - THIS THREAD NEEDS ONE MORE KICK ONTO GREATEST.

[leveymg]

25. K&R - Important Post.

[LittleClarkie]

33. Let's see what happens in the primaries, you assholes

Then we'll see who's still all smug.

I don't think I like her organization much. So far, anyone I've heard speaking out of her camp has been condescending and/or derisive.

[IndyOp]

36. Damn Them! They think LIVES are a fucking jokes.

I knew the Dems were in bed with people stealing elections internationally and I assumed nationally as well because WHY ELSE WOULDN'T GORE AND KERRY have gotten on big damn white horses and gone after the GOP?

Because THEY KNOW PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THESE MOTHER FUCKING COUPS.

DAMN THEM.

[Apollo11]

38. Al Gore is more disliked than Hillary?

I would be interested to know if he can back that up with any recent polling evidence.

Let's ask the 12 000 people who turned out to see Gore speak in Boise today!

In Gore We Trust
www.algore.com
www.algore.org
www.draftgore.com - sign the petition!
www.draftgore2008.org
www.patriotsforgore.com

[PresidentObama]

39. Wow. 12,000?

Gore still has it.

I hope both him and Kerry get into the race.

[Apollo11]

42. It's at 7pm Idaho time

You dam right Gore still got it !!

[rinsd]

40. Its liekly based on favorability polls

Most polls in the last year have shown Gore and Kerry had higher unfavorable numbers than Clinton.

Here's a recent one

http://www.pollster.com/charles_franklin/pres08_new_cbs...

[catgirl]

70. Again, this is ONE poll

and online polls get hijacked.

[madfloridian]

43. 12,000 in Idaho? For a Democrat? Fantastic.

Yeh, that doesn't sound so unpopular to me.

[catgirl]

62. He based it on one poll

and you know how these online polls get hijacked.

[rinsd]

66. I love the smell of ignorance in the morning

I'm not sure what the guy based his statement on though I have found quite a few polls supporting his statement.

And guess what these weren't online polls.

http://www.pollingreport.com/G.htm

[catgirl]

71. I Didn't Vote For Bush, Did You?

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catgirl]

76. Ummmm. Rinsd, Where is my ignorance displayed?

Just because you have stated that you rely on polls makes ME ignorant?
I believe the only person shooting off insults on this thread has been you.
You couldn't handle someone questioning the reliance on polls. Anyone
with half a brain knows polls can be skewed. I'm done with this ridiculous
back and forth argument. I'm just glad I'm not living with you.

[mnhtnbb]

41. She did warn everyone she'd watched the Republicans and knew how to beat them

and probably meant at their own game. Accuse, lie, imply, distort and then deny. I suspect Hillary does know how to play that game and is anxious to have a go at it. And P.S.--take credit for somebody's else's idea, too.

[generaldemocrat]

44. That's just great, smear the man who was your husband's VP.........

Hopefully Hillary Co. will keep this crap up over the next year so they can turn off even more people.

[catgirl]

45. Yet Another Reason NOT To Vote For Hillary

Her reputation of being cold doesn't seem to bother her.

[madfloridian]

49. If our pollsters are messing around with polls in other countries..

Has it occurred to anyone they could be doing it here?

Just wondering.

[emulatorloo]

55. Weird, because last I heard Gore and Kerry aren't running. . . .EOM

[liberalpragmatist]

56. I don't think he's saying anything false, here

I'm not a big Mark Penn or Hillary Clinton fan, but it is true that both Kerry's and Gore's approval ratings were far worse once they'd been dragged through the mud than before.

There are plenty of other holes in his argument for Hillary. I don't think this is one of them.

[madfloridian]

59. Neither have declared.

So why say their names. That is the point. It is petty thing to do.

[Gloria]

57. I hope this all blows up in their faces....I'm getting even more and more

against lifting a finger for Hillary if she and her crew bulldoze their way to the nomination.

I've done a ton of research on her, her political friends, etc....and the verdict is UGH!!!!!

Someday I'll post it all ....

[beachmom]

58. Pretty odd start for the "frontrunner". Less than 48 hours out of

the gate, and already going negative. What has this country come to if our choices get down to Hillary vs. McCain?

[paulk]

72. you are once again taking something out of context

and using it in your never ending quest to trash Hillary Clinton.

First of all, the comment "He then set his sights on Sen. John Kerry and former Vice President Al Gore" comes from the writer of the article, and is, in itself, a distortion.

If you read the statement from Penn in it's entirety, it reads -

"Some of the commentators look at the ratings of people who have not yet been in the cross-fire, and say they might have a better chance. Recent history shows the opposite. The last two Democratic presidential candidates started out with high favorability ratings and ended up on Election Day - and today - far more polarizing and disliked nationally."

It is clear that the reference to Kerry and Gore relates to the idea that Obama's high favorability ratings will somehow give him a better chance. Penn states that this wasn't the case with Gore and Kerry, and therefore there is no reason to believe that Obama would be able to withstand the right wing attack machine any differently. This is a fair point.


----------------

It's bad enough when the right wing and the their lapdogs in the MSM distort and spread disinformation in their never ending attempts to undermine the Democratic Party and it's candidates. It is particularly despicable when these efforts come from one of our own.


ed for spelling