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historicaljoe514 Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 11:45 PM
Original message
The Military factor??
I've been wondering something. Obama, Edwards, Clinton, Richardson, in my opinion would all make outstanding candidates. However, will the fact that they were not in the military dissuade voters? Kerry was in the military, and besides the swiftboat idiots, got a lot of support from veterans. Bill Clinton was never in but it didn't really hinder him that much. But I was wondering if their lack of military experience might put people like Gen. Clark ahead of them?
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Doubt it....
Military service is a plus, but not necessary. I think only 1 or 2% of the population is active or in the reserves at any given time.

Obama and Edwards were too young for either the WWII or Vietnam drafts, and Clinton being a woman, military experience would be more unlikely, so not a big deal for her either.

I think it would only be a problem if there WAS a draft or major conflict, and the candidate actively tried not to serve. It definitely hurt President Clinton.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Service doesn't hold that much value. Look at shrub.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Bush's camp did everything they could to pretend otherwise BECAUSE they know
how important military on the resume becomes in presidential contests. If they thought it wasn't important, they wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did to hide and didtort the record and take Dan Rather out.

They KNEW it was important enough to set up an outside group like swifts to lie about Kerry's military record. Easy to do when you know your cronies control most of the broadcast airtime at the networks they own.
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm a military guy
I won't vote for a non veteran.

I know a lot of guys in the Army that feel the same way.
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historicaljoe514 Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thats how my father is
I was just wondering if it was enough to give someone like Clark an edge.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. A lot of people feel that way
Especially older Americans, who are more likely to vote than younger ones.

It won't matter unless the Repub nominee is a veteran. That's be McCain or Hagel. Any of the others?
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Won't? At all?
Forgive me sir but that is patently ridiculous.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Say WHAT?
What's so bad about not having served in the military, in contrast to, say, not having studied Economics?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Military service doesn't make everybody a great leader.
Take GW Awol Bush for example, who didn't get shit out of his "service" experience.

I prefer a candidate with mil service but to make it a hard rule is pretty dumb.

I take it you didn't vote for Clinton?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well, 9/11 was not a military failure.
It was a domestic security failure. We never really needed the military regular forces to track terrorists. We could have done it oh so many other ways.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think that Clark having negotiated a peace treaty and having
lead and won a war without any american soldier dying is what his advantage is more than simply his "military" service.

Clark should have the edge considering the times as they are....but the pundits want the Dems to run someone who has no experience in National Defense/Foreign policy experience...which is why our top Dem contenders put together have less experience than does Clark in his pinky finger....meanwhile Giuliani (9/11 fame) and McCain (POW Fame) are touted for the other side...although I think that Giuliani will soon be exposed as the joke he really is, cause even the GOP don't want his tired sorry lightweight ass!

Here's some information on Wes Clark. Read up on him and than see what you think!
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/
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Jackeen Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Sorry, Clark's a non-starter for me.
"Read up on him and than see what you think!"

Extremely contentious fellow. Retired types who also used to wear stars on their collars have said that if he runs, they'll launch a campaign that would make the Swift Boat chaps look like a bunch of amateurs, and they'd have held the ranks and positions to hold weight. He rubbed a lot of people the wrong way on the way up.

He's the only General officer I can think of who was fired from command of NATO, and evidently personable enough that during the Kosovo operation a British General flat refused to follow one of Clark's instructions, claiming "I'm not going to start World War Three for you." Doesn't sound appealing.

Speaking as someone who still has BDUs in the wardrobe, I don't think military experience is really a requirement. It's nice and will get you more points, but not mandatory. Wouldn't mind if SecDef had worn a uniform, though

I was in Iraq for the 04 elections, so wasn't able to entirely follow the campaigning, but the impression I got was that as far as the military was concerned, the Kerry campaign backfired. The whole "I was a war vet, and I was awarded the following litany of gongs" smacked of having it shoved down our throats and is really considered rather bad form. I don't know what effect that line of campaigning had on the civilian populace domestically, but it didn't seem to go down too well amongst my colleagues, and I wasn't too keen on it either. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between a guy with a valour award and one without is that the guy with the award was (un)lucky enough to be find himself in a position where he could be considered for it: Everyone in a uniform is a potential medal awardee, if the enemy is co-operative enough to show up at the right time or place and do the right things. Anybody who -tries- to earn a medal is worth avoiding.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Sorry, but you are ill informed.....
Your shit is outdated on Clark. Too bad that you say you are a soldier, and yet have no clue about what occurred in the not so distant military past.

Here's some links. If you actually want to know the truth about Gen. Clark, as opposed to the "Dime a dozen" websites erected last primary in order that he not get the nomination because the freeps were scared shitless of him, than you will read them. If you want to stay in your cocoon, full of unsubstantiated hogwash, without having given the most decorated officer since Eisenhower than you will not.

Smear Debunked - "Clark would have started WWIII"
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/2006/10/smear_debunked_clark_would_hav.html

In reference to Clark's early retirement (he was not fired) read....

THE EARLY DEPARTURE
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/2006/10/the_early_departure.html

and also read....
General Brass on Wes! But what about the Shelton Smear?...Well that was "Just Politics"...doh!
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/2007/01/gen_clarks_band_of_brass_opini.html

You might also want to read the late Col. David Hackworth's take on Clark. He certainly wouldn't had have a problem with a Clark presidency....and I know that many respect Hackworth much more than they do the chickenhawks that erected the websites where you are getting your misinformation from!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34738
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Jackeen Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I beg to differ.
"Smear Debunked - "Clark would have started WWIII""

I didn't say he would have started WWIII: I said that one of the British subordinates flat refused to follow an instruction whilst saying that. (To rapturous approval in the UK, I should add. I hang out on British military fora). One of the issues with leadership is that you have to get your subordinates to do what you want them to do. This failed to happen: Clark either lacked the charismatic qualities to convince the Brit to carry out his instructions, or the balls to play it hard and force the instructions to be carried out. When faced with the challenge, he basically sat back and said "OK, we'll leave it, so." Even if the British chap does have an automatic disregard for Americans (Which I would dispute is to the extent claimed, particularly given his later appointment as Chief of the General Staff, which de-facto requires working with Americans). Any way you spin it, it was a failure for Clark.

"In reference to Clark's early retirement (he was not fired) read...."

Yes, and Donald Rumsfeld wasn't fired either. He resigned. There is no doubt that Clark was forced out of his position by Higher.

"But what about the Shelton Smear?..."

I did not say that the allegations (and I know there were more flag officers talking about it than just Shelton) were true, I said that they would run a campaign, and that campaign would have some weight. If you look at the effect that a bunch of junior officers and enlisted types had on Kerry, be their allegations true or otherwise, then transfer that to allegations brought about by flag officers, it's going to have a negative effect which would have to be overcome.

"read the late Col. David Hackworth's take on Clark"

I've read it. However, an endorsement from Hackworth isn't going to convince many military types in favour of Clark either: He was not universally appreciated.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The Facts are as they were, and they cannot be changed to suit your taste....
as to what occurred, period. You are stating that somehow General Clark should have been insistent in his command and basically "forced" General Jackson to obey his command. This response of yours means that you do not understand how NATO worked, the complexity of what one's reaction should be under the circumstances as they presented themselves. Each NATO country had to sign off on every command aspect of the military planning and situation. For you to suggest that General Clark should have not listened to General Jackson's rationale as to why he opposed the order given by General Clark would have demonstrated a certain lack of rationality on the part of Clark.

It appears that you did not closely enough read the information that I provided you, and as such, I must believe that it doesn't "work" for you because you simply would prefer to be able to criticize Wes Clark, first because of what he did (giving the order)....and then if needed, for what he didn't do (that he didn't somehow force Jackson to obey).

It shows your lack of comprehension that sometimes events cannot be rearranged to suit a story. You have a story, but unfortunately, the facts do not fit. it's kind of like those who were attempting to "fit the facts to the policy" as opposed to "making the policy to fit the facts" in taking us to Iraq. When one is dealing with your type of exhibited dogma, one can realize that it doesn't matter what happened because whatever it is, you will not concede any of your incorrectly supposed allegations.

Here's the part that you don't want to accept in your assertion that Clark should have charismatically "changed" Jackson's mind and compelled him to follow Clark's orders.

When the Russians actually occupied the airfield on June 12, NATO initially wanted to place troops and armored carriers on part of it to block it--not to storm it--because there was a relatively low risk of a confrontation at the airfield--which was large and occupied by only a token force--whereas there might be a very serious risk if the Russians decided to force their way through Hungarian airspace. Then the Hungarians and NATO would be faced with deciding whether to shoot down Russian transports. Much better, Solana and U.S. leaders had reasoned, to avert such a grave situation by making it impossible to land Russian reinforcements in Kosovo. As SACEUR, Clark's job was to develop and implement this plan. However, because NATO is an alliance that work on consensus, every nation possesses a de facto veto over how its troops can be used (also known as a "red card"). In this case, the bulk of the available forces were British, and Jackson decided that he disagreed strongly enough with the policy that he wanted to exercise London's veto. When the two generals consulted their political masters, Washington reversed course--probably more as a result of a desire to placate London and the rest of NATO than out of a fear of provoking Moscow.

Who was ultimately correct here? You might argue that Jackson was correct because they ended up resolving the situation diplomatically without needing the particular operation Clark had ordered. But we have empirical evidence that nothing close to a serious confrontation would have occurred had Clark's orders gone through: several days later, with the situation at Pristina still pretty much the same, both Clark and Jackson authorized French and British units to take positions at the airport. The troops got there. The Russians denied them access. Everyone stood around and radioed back to their commanders for further instruction. Then the NATO units left. Lo and behold, no one got shot. No massive diplomatic crisis. No World Wars began.

Whether the Pristina Airfield story repeated by right-wing Clinton/Clark haters, extreme leftists who still insist that Milosevic was a just and democratic leader, or mainstream journalists eager to present a dramatic story but unwilling to do the legwork to check the facts, it's clear that the only reason it has any legs is because of Jackson's pithy but entirely hyperbolic quote.


Jackson was eventually reprimanded and relieved of his K-For command. That is the proof in the pudding to the fact that Gen. Clark acted appropriately and Gen. Jackson did pay a price....in the manner that was according to the rules that had been previously agreed upon.

Gen Jackson criticized by Kosovo report
http://www.agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19991018nato3.htm

German to assume K-For command
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/444350.stm
German General Klaus Reinhardt is to replace Britain's General Sir Mike Jackson as commander of Nato's Kosovo peacekeeping force, K-For.
---------

Here's are two great quotes that tells me why Clark is exactly the type of military officer who's character would be condusive to the Presidency of a Democracy.
"Clark's problem was that he was a great general but not always a perfect soldier--at least when it came to saluting and saying, "Yes, sir." http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51403-2000May1¬Found=true

and It was Clark who balanced the demands and misgivings of 19 nations and armies through 78 long days. That showed a great political touch; indeed, Wesley Clark may be too much of a politician for some soldiers—even if he is too much of a soldier for the politicians.http://www.texasforclark.com/departure1.htm

These quotes from journalists examplify that Wes Clark is no hypocrite nor was he dogmatic. in other words, considering the kind of General he was, to have ordered Jackson to do what Jackson objected strongly to would have been an hypocritical move on Wes Clark's part. The fact that he was totally consistent in allowing for others what he himself has done is the way that it should be....which is why your entire "complaint" on what the General ought to have done is an argument that falls on its face.
------------------

In reference to Clark's early retirement, there has been too much ink written at the time for one to want to feign ignorance as to the circumstances and only look at the result. It is widely known that Clark was sabotaged by the Pentagon's knives.

However, types like you rarely want to acknowledged the facts as they were; Clark's job descriptions assigned him to clearly wear two hats throughout the War in Kosovo; that of Supreme Allied NATO Commander who's immmediate superior was the state Department which has nothing to do with the Pentagon....

In addition, he also wore the hat of a 4 star General; and in this regard, his superiors were Sec. of Defense Cohen and General Shelton at the Pentagon.


The Kosovo War was a NATO War, not a United States mission, and so you are conveniently failing to understand is that although Cohen/Shelton may have resented the fact that Clark was reporting directly to the state department, that is precisely what Clark was supposed to do. In other words, Cohen and Shelton wanted to be the ones to call the shots of this war (guess they wanted some glory since they knew the path to hero-hood), although as a NATO operation that would have been an incorrect line of command. Simply put, in their quest to have total control and power, Cohen/Shelton were the ones who were wrong in their treatment of Wes Clark....who was correct in how he was handling the various chains of command to the separate departments.

Thereby Clark correctly denied Cohen/Shelton the power and control they wished to have, and because Clark didn't play the game they wanted played, they devised a manner of retiring him early....not because he didn't do his job, but because he had done too good a job that didn't provide for their own personal glory. That is why the only way that they could "get back" at Clark was to retire him early behind Clinton's back and to leak the announcement to the press in order to disallow Clinton from being able to do anything about it.

Cohen and Shelton were called Pentagon knives for a valid reason; Clark did too good a job, and so....he had to go. It is their character and integrity that should have and was brought into question. And this is why Clark received the Medal of Freedom after his retirement, and was decorated by all of the NATO Countries who had participated, and then some. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wesley_Clark_awards_and_honors

This is also the reason that Wes Clark has two streets named after him in Kosovo, and Cohen and Selton do not. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2647330

Jealousy is a green bitch, and Clark was who bore the brunt of the ire.

Cites to back up my comments:

Clark's Exit Was Leaked Deliberately, Official Says
WASHINGTON - One mystery solved. Why was Gen. Wesley Clark's early removal from his post as NATO's top commander leaked within an hour after Clark himself was informed of Defense Secretary William Cohen's decision last week?
Answer: Because Cohen's staff wanted to prevent Clark, who had led the NATO military campaign against Yugoslavia and was known to like his job, from working behind the scenes to undo the decision, according to a senior Pentagon official
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure3.htm

THE UNAPPRECIATED GENERAL
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51403-2000May1¬Found=true

Why Wesley Clark Got the Ax at NATO - 8/6/99
Defeated generals are sent home in disgrace, but it is most unusual to dismiss victorious ones. Whatever the future may hold for Kosovo--and it looks rather grim at present--there is no doubt that NATO's war against Serbia ended in victory. Nor is it in doubt that its military commander, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, was very much the victorious general of that war.
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure4.htm

"Washington's Long Knives" 8/03/99
The real story, of course, is that Gen. Clark was not reappointed because he had ruffled too much senior Washington plumage in achieving NATO's victory.
snip
Gen. Wesley Clark has earned the nation's gratitude. He learned well the lesson of using force to prevail in the Balkan snake pit and emerged as a genuine allied commander of stature. In so doing, however, even a leader of his talents and professionalism was unable to survive the more harsh and unforgiving Washington snake pit. He will depart NATO next April as the shortest-tenured SACEUR since Dwight Eisenhower. That's not bad company to be in.
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure.htm

Warrior's Rewards -- Newsweek 8/06/99
Gen. Wesley Clark, supreme Allied Commander in Europe, waged and won NATO's campaign for Kosovo without losing a single soldier in action. For the U.S. military, the victory was uniquely—historically—bloodless. Last week Clark learned it was also thankless.
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure1.htm







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Jackeen Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Who's changing them? We appear to be looking at the same facts and coming to different conclusions.
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 02:46 AM by Jackeen
You say Jackson was reprimanded and relieved at KFOR. He held the ComKfor position for the tour and rotated out. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/468289.stm
"He will hand over to German General Klaus Reinhardt after seven months in the job, the first three of which were spent waiting in Macedonia for conditions to permit a landforce to move in.

The change of command will complete the transfer of Nato headquarters staff from Gen Jackson's Allied Rapid Reaction Corps to troops from the German commander's Land Forces Central Europe division. "

Unless you're going to argue that his 'firing' required an entire change of staff.

Interestingly, after he was 'relieved', he was promoted to full general, and made the British equivalent of Chief of Staff of the Army. This is not something that happens to someone who screws up and does a bad job. This is not the CV of someone who isn't considered in a good light:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6216808.stm

You will also note that after Jackson's refusal, Clark instructed Admiral Ellis, an American, to put helicopters on the runways to prevent Russian aircraft from landing. Admiral Ellis also refused. Even if you were to grant Jackson some form of bias for anti-Americanism, and the 'red card ability' for British troops, I'm not sure how you can apply that to Ellis.

In any case, Clark saw something that he wanted done, had two flag officers refuse him, and not only failed to gain support from Washington, his arguments also failed to gain support from Whitehall. Whether or not he was ultimately correct is irrelevant (and debatable: Three days later was plenty of time for things to settle down and people to talk with each other), what's important is that he thought it was important enough to make an effort at pushing, and failed miserably, also ending up with a PR disaster. (Which isn't good for a politician's chances, IMO) The Army defines leadership as follows in FM 6-22: "Leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose, direction, and motivation while operating to accomplish the mission and improving the organization." Explain to me how Clark demonstrated good leadership by the Army's definition in this instance.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Clark wrote about the incident in his first book...
In terms of The PR disaster, the only one I see is the one that you and the Right Wing Freeps seem to make based on something that is considered hyperbole by most reasonable persons.

Weird how Clark is somehow "fired" when he's retired early, but Jackson in your story in simply relieved. Weird how General Jackson is still being promoted and yet called Bloody Sunday Jackson! tells me more about the world of the British military more than anything!
World: Europe

German to assume K-For command
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/444350.stm
German General Klaus Reinhardt is to replace Britain's General Sir Mike Jackson as commander of Nato's Kosovo peacekeeping force, K-For.

The appointment comes amid continuing controversy over the outgoing K-For commander's failure to prevent Russian forces from taking Pristina airport before the arrival of Nato troops in June.


a clash between him and Gen Clark after he was accused of disobeying an order to prevent Russian troops from taking the airport.

He refused to block the airport runway, saying he did not want to start World War III, and sought the intervention of Britain's top military commander to help get the order reversed.


Angered by the apparent insubordination, the chairman of the US Senate Armed Services Committee is now to hold hearings into the incident, believing it calls into question Nato's chain of command.


but I know that your "friend", Mako Jacko is not the paragon of virtue, meaning his word and bby the same token yours, means diddley to me!




His role in 'Bloody Sunday' controversial
Bloody Sunday Inquiry `Consider Recall for General Sir Mike'

By Kieran McDaid, PA News
http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp...
Britain's most senior soldier may be recalled to give further evidence to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, it has emerged.

The three Saville Inquiry judges are considering whether to ask General Sir Mike Jackson, the Chief of the General Staff, to return to the witness box in London to discuss a controversial document alleged to be in his hand writing.

General Jackson, who was an adjutant in the Parachute Regiment on January 30, 1972, said he had no recollection of taking part in the compilation of a list of what soldiers fired at, when he gave his evidence to the inquiry two months' ago.

A contemporaneous handwritten note of the engagements, alleged to be in Gen Jackson's hand writing, was submitted to the inquiry last week by the Ministry of Defence.



So although you seem to be obviously enamored with a pretty weird and sinister British General you take an awful lot of time dissing the most decorated officer since Eisenhower and an American. What country are you typing from again?
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Jackeen Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. It seems we shall agree to disagree.
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 10:23 AM by Jackeen
I submit that Clark writing about it in his own book is not going to be the least biased source of information as to what went on.

<quote>Weird how Clark is somehow "fired" when he's retired early, but Jackson in your story in simply relieved.</quote>

Where is there any indication that Jackson was relieved at any stage earlier than he was supposed to have been? According to the article linked, Jackson was the last of the British KFOR staff to leave. For your assumption to be true, this would indicate that any issues permeated the rest of the staff more than Jackson.

<quote>I know that your "friend", Mako Jacko is not the paragon of virtue, meaning his word and bby the same token yours, means diddley to me! </quote>

Shall I be the pot or the kettle in this argument? You get to be the other. Bloody Sunday was something of a controversial moment in Northern Ireland, of course there will be allegations. The Saville Report has not yet published. At any rate, Jackson's performance in N.I. is not under review here, he's not being considered for the Democratic nomination, last I checked.

I note you fail to address Admiral Ellis' refusal, and wonder if you think that Jackson is 'weird' because of the way he looks: Why else put up a picture when it is obvious I already know what he looks like?

<quote>you take an awful lot of time dissing the most decorated officer since Eisenhower and an American</quote>

Never let blind patriotism get in the way of facts, and the fact is that a Clark Presidential bid will have this albatross, justified or not, hanging around its neck. If you think that the Voting Populace will not be affected, fine. I don't see it that way.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Like I said, lots of energy here in reference to attempting to
diss Clark for whatever your agenda might be.

But I've got news for you.....It's like WWIII is happening now, and it wasn't General Clark that started it! So I don't think that this hyperbole of a sentence really is as relevant or proves any point, although you wish that it might....beyond the fact that Wes Clark did what was appropriate under the circumstances.....dealing with a piece of shit of an asshole while keeping his cool (flies in the face of those who say that Gen. Clark is somekind of hothead delussional power hungry authoritarian (and so I thank you for making the case that he is not)!

In fact, your beloved piece of shit of an asshold friend, the hard drinking Gen. Macho Bloody Jacko was FOR the Iraq war, so in my book, reviewing the judgment of the two, I'll take my chance with Gen. Wes Clark having been right on target in this incident and call it a day.


The can-do general for war and peace
(Filed: 26/05/2003)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk /news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F05%2F26%2Fnjack26.xml
The peace rallies and the lack of United Nations support never alarmed him (you can't imagine much worrying this general). "No soldier who has seen active service wants to rush into a war, but sometimes it is the lesser of two evils," he reflects. "I'm quite satisfied in myself that it was right."

Nor is he concerned that no weapons of mass destruction have yet been found. "I understand that not everyone saw the necessity of bringing Saddam Hussein to account, but it was the right thing to do and I'm proud that this nation swung behind the troops when their lives were on the line."

Gen Jackson is not renowned for his love of Americans. When commanding the Nato troops in Kosovo, he refused an order from Nato's supreme commander, Gen Wesley Clark. The American wanted him to assault Pristina airport, which had just been taken by some Russians. Gen Jackson evidently told him: "I'm not going to start World War Three for you."

He smiles at the story. "I might have said something like that," he admits.


The Russians ended up having to be rescued in the end afterall.....as the Russian Army of circa 1999 was laughable at best....although Putin was about to come out from the shadows.

Clark asked NATO helicopters and ground troops to seize the airport before the Russians could arrive. But a British general, absurdly saying he feared World War III (in truth the Russians had no cards to play), appealed to London and Washington to delay the order.

The result was a humiliation for NATO, a tonic for the Russian military and an important lesson for the then-obscure head of the Russian national security council, Vladimir Putin. As later Russian press reports showed, Putin knew far more about the Pristina operation than did the Russian defense or foreign ministers. It was no coincidence that a few weeks afterward, Russian bombers buzzed NATO member Iceland for the first time in a decade.

A few weeks after that, with Putin as prime minister, Russian troops invaded Chechnya. Putin learned the value of boldness in the face of Western hesitation. Clark learned that he had no backup in Washington.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51403-2000May1¬Found=true

Blind Patriotism is not the problem here...but Blind partisanship for a british General is questionnable on this Democratic board...especially one that has proven himself to be less than trustworthy in so many ways. Considering that you would "choose" to look at this particular incident with your British General glasses on, I would question not your patriotism, but your lack of fairness!

And in reference to your Great British General, yes, he's extra oogly, so I'm sure self hatred that has crept up in his character over time...how could it not? :shrug:


Clark was right about the russians, and unlike Jackson, he was also right about Iraq....so again, I'll go with Clark, the American General who had the kind of judgment that has demonstrated prescience time after time!

"The war is unpredictable and could be difficult and costly. And what is at risk in the aftermath is an open-ended American ground commitment in Iraq and an even deeper sense of humiliation in the Arab world, which could intensify our problems in the region and elsewhere.

we're going to have chaos in that region....; in fact, what may happen is that we'll remove a repressive regime and have it replaced with a fundamentalist regime which contributes to the strategic problem rather than helping to solve it.

Then we're dealing with the longer mid term, the mid term problems. Will Iraq be able to establish a government that holds it together or will it fragment? There are strong factionary forces at work in Iraq and they will continue to be exacerbated by regional tensions in the area. The Shia in the south will be pulled by the Iranians.
The Kurds want their own organization. The Kurds will be hemmed in by the Turks. The Iraqis also, the Iranians also are nervous of the Kurds. But nevertheless, the Kurds have a certain mass and momentum that they've built up. They will have to work to establish their participation in the government or their own identity."

We've encouraged Saddam Hussein and supported him as he attacked against Iran in an effort to prevent Iranian destabilization of the Gulf. That came back and bit us when Saddam Hussein then moved against Kuwait. We encouraged the Saudis and the Pakistanis to work with the Afghans and build an army of God, the mujahaddin, to oppose the Soviets in Afghanistan. Now we have released tens of thousands of these Holy warriors, some of whom have turned against us and formed Al Qaida.
My French friends constantly remind me that these are problems that we had a hand in creating. So when it comes to creating another strategy, which is built around the intrusion into the region by U.S. forces, all the warning signs should be flashing. There are unintended consequences when force is used. Use it as a last resort. Use it multilaterally if you can. Use it unilaterally only if you must."
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/2007/01/mining_and_finding_prescient_g.html



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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Ugh... Have you slept through the last 3 years or what?
Bunk, bunk, bunk...

Like or dislike the General, but at least keep your facts straight.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. May need to watch.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. May "need to watch" what?
Please expound on the statement?

I have provided plenty to "watch". I hope that in your fairness (in particular as you are a moderator), you have read what I have written.... I cannot tell if this is so, as your comment leaves much to the imagination and compels one to further inquire as to the real context of your comment.
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generaldemocrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Clark has the ability to make decisions, the right decisions.....
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 11:59 AM by generaldemocrat
Whether some tepid British General made a remark (why are we using the word of a foreign military official to smear our own general anyway?) is irrelevant to the fact that he waged a war that was:

1. Short in duration
2. Accomplished all of its objectives (stopping the genocide, discrediting Milosevic)
3. Yielded virtually no American/Allied casualties,
4. Resulted in comparatively few civilian casualties to the Serbs compared to current and past military adventures.
5. Had multilateral support, where the costs of reconstruction are being shouldered by the entire international community.

I know that organizations like DemocracyNow will be yelling their heads off if Clark gets in the race, but the effects of their smears will be ineffective because the creds Clark has are highly relevant in this day and age and will resonate positively with an American electorate that needs experienced and sensible people running their foreign policy now more than ever.

Clark only needs to run on his record and not worry about the emotions and agendas of his detractors.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. The Kerry campaign did not backfire
and the truth is he had a lof of "cred" with the enlisted personnel up and down (but mostly down) the ranks. He had a lot of "cred" which the swift liars tried to remove, but was still well earned by his 2 documented and heroic actions resulting in the award of the Silver and Bronze Stars. Nobody ever said he was trying to earn anything- he just did what he did in the moment. Furthermore, Kerry's lifelong efforts on behalf of vets and for the care and rights earned by vets from their nation are beyond question and is available for ready and easy inspection by even the mildly curious. This proven commitment to vets is a big part of the reason Kerry did so well in Iowa, where they turned out in numbers large enough to give him the big wins.
In short, Kerry's military record and experience, and proof of honor and duty to that service stands in sharp contrast to that of former governor GW Bush- who, as verified by his commander's former secretary in her interview with Dan Rather- blew off his meager agreement to show up for his weekend national guard vacation from Vietnam. I believe Texans for Truth is STILL seeking a witness to his service.
So I can't speak for Clark, but Kerry's record with the military is fairy solid.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. read this report from Amnesty International for more info on Clark...
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 04:09 PM by k_jerome
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. I'd like to see a source on this
You wrote, "Retired types who also used to wear stars on their collars have said that if he runs, they'll launch a campaign that would make the Swift Boat chaps look like a bunch of amateurs, and they'd have held the ranks and positions to hold weight."

I know of NOT ONE retired general who has threatened to "launch a campaign" to swiftboat Clark if he should run. It doesn't even make much sense, since he already has run, but perhaps you mean if he should get the nomination.

In either case, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of generals who were willing to lend their names to ANY negative statement about Clark last time. Two were working for other Democratic candidates, two were Republicans strongly supporting Bush's re-election, and one had lost a key assignment to Clark back in the mid-90s. I could name you dozens of generals and hundreds of other senior officers who have spoken out for Clark. The vast majority of military people who served with Clark think extremely highly of him.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. Just the fact that trolls are here attacking him shows me that "they" fear him.
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 08:26 PM by tabasco
:scared: Scared??
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. Also know this.....
It is and has always been the civilians that get us caught up in the wars....

Yet it is the military that is always "Blamed"! Why is that? :shrug:
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-20-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Because
the military is expected to win, if we do not win in combat, we know we are partly to blame.
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DoggyDoo Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. True, but ....
if the CIC is an idiot (and I know of one for sure!) and plays politics with soldier's lives, how can they be expected to win?
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. Only voting for a veteran
Just further propogates the belief that America is a warrior nation and that war is the most important thing of all to our citizens.

Pappy Bush was a vet. Kind of sucked didn't he.

Being in the service does not and never should be used to confer superior status upon any citizen. To think otherwise is to support fascism at its finest.

Oh, speaking of fascists wasn't Hitler a vet? (Yes for the historically challenged)

As for supporting Kerry because he is a veteran, that may be so but he did take part in one of this country's dirty little wars so I find nothing to praise there.
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generaldemocrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Civilians start wars, not generals.....
Sorry, but you need to read up on your history of how wars get started. And in this day and age, its not the generals who are starting the wars.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. And that had fuck all what to do with the anything?

I see absolutely no relationship between your post and the individual to whom you replied.


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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. It has to do with keeping a true perspective as to who the warmongers are
and who the peacemakers are, that's what.

Facism as little to do with anything.....and so poster should have replied as he/she saw fit.

Your post has little to do with poster's response that you have "jammed" up as though you own the place!

Vietnam was fought because the civilians determined that it should be fought. Then there was a draft and thousand died. Recalling the names of Hitler is ridiculous! Attempting to place somekind of facism stigma on military service peformed in the name of the fucked up civilians who had/have no clue as to what war even means does appear to be a questionnable practice.

De Gaulle was a General, and he was no facist.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I don't know what "jammed up" means.

But I saw nothing in the first post suggesting that the military starts our wars. The only meaning I took out of that first post was:


Military service should not be construed as having imbued an individual with greatness.


Some of the brightest people I have ever met are military vets. On the other hand, some of the worst scum I have met were also military vets. In my experience/opinion military vets in the rural area where I was raised were usually far more liberal than non-vets. While military vets in the urban area where I have spent most of my adulthood are usually far more conservative than non-vets. Though there are certainly exceptions to that rule as 100% of my friends in this city are military vets and quite liberal.

Bottom line: there just ain't anything that god damned special about us. It turns out vets are no different than the fucking civilians. Some vets are great, some are lousy and most are just average.

As to the facism thing, yes, glorifying the military WAS one of the tenants of facism. Of course, caring for your neighbor was a tenant of facism too. So it doesn't mean that much.



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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. And if all the good people
would refuse to fight or as they used to say what if they gave a war and nobody came?

Sure, it is a fact that civilians start wars but soldiers sure as hell have a lot to do with fighting them and how dare you tell me to read history. You don't know me or what I know but your simplistic argument is sad.


It hasn't been generals who start wars since Napoleon. Are you suggesting that would be a better way?
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
30. Judging by the last 4 elections ... NO!

1992 - failed draft dodger Clinton beat military vet Poppy Bush
1996 - failed draft dodger Clinton beat military vet Bob Dole
2000 - successful draft dodger W beat military vet Al Gore
2004 - successful draft dodger W beat military vet John Kerry


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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Well, history is not about repetition, but context of the times....
1992 - failed draft dodger Clinton beat military vet Poppy Bush - it was Peacetime

1996 - failed draft dodger Clinton beat military vet Bob Dole - it was Peacetime and an incumbent was running.

2000 - successful draft dodger W beat military vet Al Gore - election stolen, doesn't count! Plus it was peacetime

2004 - successful draft dodger W beat military vet John Kerry - election might have been stolen, plus incumbent war President does no longer a draft dodger make....in particular if the media is doing the fixin'!

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generaldemocrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
36. We live in a political atmosphere where it matters....
Bill Clinton was elected after the Cold War ended, meaning he was elected at a time when the world was perceived as being "safer". General Clark's strength probably won't help him in the primaries, but if he got the nod it would be smooth sailing for him.

Out of all the Dems, he's really the only one where winning the general election would be easier than winning the primary.
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Rebellious Republican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
40. I am a military guy to...........
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 08:35 PM by Rebellious Republica
I will vote for who ever I believe will do the best job in office, regardless of military service. I do admit that with current events being what they are, military service would be a bonus, but not the deciding factor. I will most certainly vote for which ever Dem candidate gets the nomination.

:patriot:

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