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I changed my mind, we need to move towards impeachment even if we do not have enough votes

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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:03 PM
Original message
I changed my mind, we need to move towards impeachment even if we do not have enough votes
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 10:04 PM by MN Against Bush
I have thought Bush deserved impeachment since the day he stole the election, but in the past I have advocated waiting until we had a realistic shot of getting enough votes to impeach.

I do not believe we have enough votes for conviction, and it is unlikely we can even round up enough votes for impeachment considering that many of the DLCers would never vote for such a thing no matter how strong the case.

We can not wait any longer to pursue impeachment however, we need to start making the case to impeach now. It does not matter whether or not we have the votes, if we can put our case forward we can do massive damage to George Bush's legacy and even possibly even get criminal charges filed against him the moment his pResidency ends in 2009.

Clinton payed an enormous price for his actions even though he was never removed from office. Sure his poll numbers may have rose, but he was constantly under attack and serious damage was done to his reputation.

Now lets compare Clinton's blow job to George Bush's illegal war and his trampling of the Constitution. There is no way Bush's poll numbers could go up when the faces of the people he has killed are shown to the American people. There is no way that his poll numbers will go up when it can be shown that his administration protected the anthrax mailer. There is no way that his poll numbers will go up when the methods of torture he uses are exposed to the American people.

Impeachment hearings may not remove Bush from office, but that should not stop us from pursuing them. We need Bush to be held accountable and we only have two years, we can not wait any longer.

It is time we stand up for what is right even if we may not get everything we want. We need to put Bush on trial, and expose his crimes to the American people. We need to remind Americans that Clinton was impeached by far less by the very people who are now defending Bush.

If we can't remove Bush from office we can at least destroy any shred of credibility he has left with any of the sane American people.

We would be making a huge mistake if we let this monster get away with his crimes simply because we are worried we might not have the votes to win everything we want.
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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed. The pResident is insane!
:grr: IMPEACHMENT ON DAY ONE!
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Myrmidon Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. That would be great to give him a battery of sanity tests
Much as he wants to have every school kid in America's mental health tested manditorily. Got to get more people on perscription meds.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Agreed
Another reason I favor impeachment, is that if Bush gets away with his many crimes, it sets the stage for making it impossible to impeach a president. What would it take, then, after overlooking Bush's crimes? Killing a baby on Fox, and drinking it's blood? He has done more harm to our country than even Osama could have hoped for. Even if we don't have the votes, we have to try.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. We have more than enough votes to impeach. nt
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. based on what?
I've never seen any indication of how members of the House would vote on impeachment if it were put to them at this point. Since virtually none of them made support for impeachment a part of their campaign platforms in November, I'm curious why you are so certain that there are 'more than enough' votes to impeach at this point in time.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. It only takes a one vote majority in the House to impeach. Do we not have that?
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 06:32 PM by mtnsnake
Conviction is another matter. I believe it takes two thirds to convict in the Senate. But ya know what? You can't think about convicting until you impeach...and impeach is something we have the power to do NOW.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. you're assuming a party line vote by House Democrats
and I think that is a pretty unsafe bet at this point in time. I'd bet that there isn't a majority on the Democratic side to vote articles of impeachment and won't be unless and until investigations build to the point where there is a bi-partisan demand.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. This asshole deserves a shit stain on his pants
Let's give it to him.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. it's not so much what he deserves. it's what the country must do.
the country MUST take a stand that there's a price to be paid for trampling on the constitution, lying to congress, lying to america to get us into a war for personally revenge and greed.

if bush gets to serve out two full terms without an impeachment, what can we expect from future presidents???
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. I agree, Bush must be impeached to begin the healing process of this country
The whole world has always been watching, if Bush remains the President it'll only prove that this country allowed to be corrupted and those in power were able to stay above the law and control even the starting of it's war of choices.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. Impeachment in haste focuses on one or two people in the Republican Party.
I prefer to take down the entire lot. I agree we need to move toward justice, but we need to do so while exposing this entire Political Party for what it is.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I want to start the process now, that does not mean the whole process has to be in haste
I agree we need to take others down as well, but we need to start now. We can not wait any longer because these things do take time.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We can't start until we take the house in a few days.
And I think "the process" is what people are debating. Investative hearings vs. impeachment off the bat. I am in favor of unearthing every bit of dirt possible, before we begin impeachment.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. But what changed your mind?
I can see your mind is changed but what was the process.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I have long thought Bush deserved impeachment, but I wanted to wait until there was a chance...
But I just read an article in Mother Jones which referenced a John Nichols book which made a great argument that even if Bush was not ultimately impeached the hearings could do lasting damage to his career. It is a fairly obvious argument really, but I had never heard it expressed in that way before. Many supporters of impeachment were making the argument that if we moved forward the votes would come naturally once the evidence was put forward, I did not buy this argument however because members of Congress do not always vote based on what is right but rather by what will protect their own power. I was hesitant to move forward because I thought we would be defeated. Nichols' argument that we can have a victory even if we don't get every thing we want made a lot of sense however, and I think we need to move forward on this.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nancy, it needs to be done in the first 100 hours
No excuses. Murdering Saddam today is just the latest final straw.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. the first 100 hours need to be spent on a positive legislative agenda
INcluding impeachment in the mix will drown out that effort and distract the public from the debate over important issues such as minimum wage reform, health care, habeas corpus etc. etc.

Investigations and oversight are long overdue and were part of the platform of many Democratic candidates. In contrast, virtually no one ran on an "impeachment" platform and suddenly making that a top priority will justifiably piss off a lot of voters who want Congress to address the issues discussed in the campaign.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Impeachment Process has begun.
The first stage is investigations.

Send out the subpoenas.
Get the criminals under oath.
Keep it SIMPLE.
Televise the hearings.


The PUBLIC will demand IMPEACHMENT, not the Democratic Party.

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.


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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I was wondering about this a couple of days ago.
Thanks for writing this. I feel like the Dems are being smart and circumspect about handling a possible impeachment.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. Revenge for impeaching Clinton?
Ordinarily i don't do revenge. But in this case.....

That's just a meme, by the way. Bush needs to be impeached, Clinton or not. But telling the right-wing wackos that we are gonna get revenge will strike a huge psychological blow, eh?
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I get laughed at a lot for saying this...
but at this point, I am not sure that there wouldn't be support for an impeachment on both sides of the aisle. Bush has gotten so low and this war is so unpopular and so many people of BOTH parties think that Bush has lied to the country, I don't think it is out of the question for an impeachment to actually happen with a degree of bipartisan support.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Not laughing
I would expect that many, many republicans would finally come to their senses and support articles of impeachment. Really, they may not win re-election unless they do.

Let 'em laugh at us. We are gonna get even.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Seriously, we need to drop the 'get even' rhetoric, even in here.
While I really, REALLY empathize with that mindset, it is going to get us in trouble. This needs to be about following the strict letter of the law and doing what is RIGHT. It CANNOT be seen as being about getting even. I know what you meant, but there are people, even people here, who will not.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. People grok getting even
And using the term is only meant to rile up the oppo.

Tell ya what, you go your way, and I'll go mine. See you at the hearings!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. I sympathize completely, also, but it's not a matter of merely 'getting even.'
It's a matter of MULTIPLE high crimes and misdemeanors. THREE THOUSAND deaths, just deaths, of Americans, just Americans, in this war that was justified BY LIES.

Besides, IMPEACHMENT, itself, is supposed to be a rather significant punishment for grievous misdeeds considered bad enough to want to yank the offender from high office. The last impeachment we have on record is a joke. A farce. Cheapened to the point of toothlessness and ridicule. Impeachment for a frickin BLOW JOB. They've fucked over the whole concept of IMPEACHMENT. It needs serious, and solumn, and absolutely mature, grown-up rehabilitation to pull it out of the mockery status in which the republi-CONS so thoughtfully left it. IMPEACHMENT itself needs to be rehabilitated. Another very legitimate reason to launch it in this case, for reasons that will stand the test of history without being laughed off the page of the history book.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Yeah! Exactly, Calimary
We'll show them how to do impeachment right.

Not only are we gonna get even, we're gonna show them how it's supposed to be done. Ya know, this might even be fun,
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. I absolutely agree.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. I disagree...
We will never get an impeachment, let alone a conviction...

It will simply cause the Republicans to circle the wagons and we will get jack shit done for the next two years...

And if it is seen as excessivley partisan, which it is almost guaranteed to do, we could lose our majority that quick!!!

I hear comments here that this is the most important thing that has to be done..."Impeachment on day one" and other such nonsense...

Explain to the family trying to survive on a minimum wage income that impeaching is worth losing the fight on things that could actually help them...explain how impeachment was more important that a minimum wage hike, or health insurance...

I am not saying investigations into the FISA violations, lies etc should not go forward ...they should. But if it is seen as a prelude to impeachment, or is done as a part of impeachment hearings, it will ruin any hope of rolling back the damage these people have done to working families over the last 6 years!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Without impeachment
There will be no rollback. With them seated comfotably in power, there will never be any change for the working families.

Not to mention that you are so very wrong saying that impeachment can't happen. It will happen, and we will get our revenge!
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You are living in a dreamland...
Impeachment will not happen. Pelosi knows it, Reid knows it...hell it is only seen as possible here at DU.

There is no way a conviction will ever happen. And if by some unbelievable miracle it did happen, we would be stuck with President Cheney...



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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Ya know
I thought just like you, that impeachment could never happen.... back 10 years ago. Now any idiot can see that given a groundswell of support, anything is possible.

Heh, they impeached for a bj, and this time the w has killed thousands over a lie. Now don't tell me that you can't see it because you don't want to see it......

Son, ya gotta want it before you can get it! So get with it!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Which is it? IMPEACHMENT won't happen or conviction won't happen?
They're two distinct and different things, you know.

And do you seriously believe that if Congress discovers IMPEACHABLE offenses against Bush** (which is inevitable, if they only dig a little), those offenses won't damn Cheney** as well? And if that happens, we will "be stuck" with President Pelosi.

Visualize it. Then do something to make it happen.

NGU.


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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Neither...
Impeachment, were it possible is not worth pursuing if conviction is not possible... and it is not. There is no way, in the span of less than two years, invesitgations, hearings, impeachment proceedings and convictions of both Bush and Cheney will occur...

It is not worth the risk of losing any chance to make any headway against the damage Bush has done to working families over the last 6 years, and is certainly not worth jeapordizing our majority for.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Were not worthy?
We don't deserve to see *the w* impeached? I know that's not what you wrote, I wrote that. You see, it's a question.

We do deserve to see *the w* brought up on charges. We deserve justice as only our representatives can deliver. To say or feel otherwise is tantamount to coddling the worst criminals ever.

You ain't no coddler, and neither am I, so lets not even talk about coddling, let's throw the book at 'em.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Frankly...
I understand the impulse....and I think intense oversight is a good thing. But I think a concerted drive toward impeachment from the outset would be a disaster for working families, who finally have hope that something good will happen for them.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Like what?
All the working families are gonna get is a *w* veto.

Until *the w* is under intense pressure will anything good get past his grubby hands. How else do you suppose we apply the pressure needed?

Imo, an impeachment will pop *the w* like a big ugly zit.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. A minimum wage will get t hrough...
And Bush will sign...

If enough Republicans are on board some of t hese issues, they can get passed...but not if we start an immediate effort that looks like partisan revenge...

It will also endanger our majority

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hijinx87 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I agree

the minority rethugs wouldn't dare vote against it.

and I agree with the entirety of your post.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. So that's it?
All we get is a lousy minimum wage increase? And for that we have to trade "doing the right thing"?

Not even a good compromise. Gonna have to do better than that. Frankly, the only thing I'd trade 'doing the right thing' for is a resignation.

We've got to be tough and mean, we are dealing with tough and mean people. They only have respect for tough and mean. And we mean for *the w* to go away.... far far away.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Tell ya what...
You explain to those working full time and still living in poverty...that a raise in the minimum wage isn't good enough.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. The Radical RW will try to make ANYTHING we do look like...
...partisan revenge. It's a fact of life, son. Why do you insist on basing what we should or shouldn't do on their intimidation?

NGU.


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Putting an end to the idea of a "Unitary Executive"...
...once and for all ISN'T "making headway against the damage Bush** has done"??!

:crazy:

And it's "not worth pursuing if conviction is not possible" - considering it'll take putting the entire Rape-Publican Culture of Corruption on record to get to that point?? On the contrary, IMPEACHMENT without conviction can pay its own dividends in terms of exposing exactly which Rape-Publican Senators will dare to defend the corruption.

And I think we need to quit passing around the Rovian talking point that if we seek justice against criminals in the form of IMPEACHMENT that we won't be able to also do all the other important work we need to do. That's bullshit. DC can move mountains if it has the political will.

NGU.


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hijinx87 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. ok, rather than rehash the lengthy arguments for and against
let me ask you a question: What actually changed your mind? I see
your reasoning, and that is fairly standard. was there a precipitating
event? did someone change your mind?

just sort of curious.



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Bluesplayer Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Use it or get rid of it
If Bush doesn't deserve to be impeached, no president ever will again. Might as well change the Constitution.
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hijinx87 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. that's actually harder than impeachment.

;)

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earlybelle Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
44. you really never know if the votes are there or not. Some people may really see Bush as a danger
may vote for impeachment and surprise many. I think the Congress should go for it.
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