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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:56 AM
Original message
question for the Hillary bashers here
name one blue state she can't win?
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. .
Just looking for a heated discussion or are other posters allowed, too?

Which states exactly do you count as blue states? The same question could be asked to make the case for other candidates as well so I'm probably missing the story that lead to this thread.
Anyways, there are "purple" states that might be toss ups for almost every candidate. Winning only the safe blue states won't suffice.
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. Now name a red state she turns blue. We gotta do that. NT
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #44
73. Virginia
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #73
84. Virginia? What are you smokin'? NT
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
76. She received over sixty percent of the vote in the most Republican parts of New York
She has shown she can win and win easily...
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. If she were the only name listed
she would win. Give her some viable candidate and it would not go well. So far, Hillary has had only garanteed elections. And still had to overspend. Give her a real candidate and red, blue or purple, Hillary would be in trouble. The title of your post says it all.
She is just as hated on the left as on the right and I don't know which ones hate her more.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. "She is just as hated on the left as on the right" - why "hated" on the left? n/t
n/t
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. The Right votes for symbols.

The Left votes for issues. As a symbol for the Left who has embraced many issues for the Right, she loses the Watchers on both sides.

Professional activists on the Left who participate in the electoral process and make their plans for the sole purpose of winning elections like her very much. She may not have strong numbers for the A and G factors, but her N, M, P and K factors are so strong as to make her equation come out to a higher value for possible electoral success than the other candidates (with the possible exception of Obama). For this group issues aren't even, well, an issue.


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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. The issue position on her web site seem well on the left - albeit also pragmatic - why are
they "wrong positions"?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. Not all that many DUers are Hillary bashers - but they are loud - I'd vote for her in a NY minute!
Hillary as President would be great because she is a truth teller and has the ability to use her past experience to do better in the future. She seems a Saint - a teacher and a helper and a protector that looks like a Giant - she is a gift to ourselves compared to the idea of electing a "send more troops" John McCain and indeed compared to all the GOP possible candidates with their be kind to the poor and middle class talk now which we know from the experience of the past 6 years is always followed in those same GOPers in lockstep screwing the middle class so as to send tax cuts to the RICH & CORPORATE while also providing welfare for the rich by means of government contracts for unneeded and overpriced items and services. Only Hillary will hold the size of government down and cut away at the growth of government that has occurred under the GOP - and only Hillary will have the guts to tell the health insurance companies that they must change to administrative service providers for claim payment, as they are now under their contracts with the Medicare program, as we move to single payer national health, saving the country the 30% of the current health care bill (over $300 Billion a year) that is wasted on an inefficient payment system. We have a massive health care payment problem - and a relatively small coverage problem - and the Obama/Massachusetts-Rommney universal coverage via taxpayer money to insurance companies for limited benefits will not solve the problem of our paying 30% extra just to keep the money flowing through the insurance companies. Hillary was forced by Bill into a universal coverage approach in 93 and will not make the mistake again (I hope).

She is better than most on human rights and has real values from her constant religious faith, so she will get things accomplished in this area - perhaps gay unions instead of gay marriage and abortion rights limited to allow some parental input so as to get these compromises passed - but she will accomplish passage into laws and prevention of bad laws where others offer only rhetoric that is often lies.

Amazing how many DUers have bought into the GOP theme sold by the media of a flag waving in the wind, no hard principles - next I suppose will be the usual GOP theme of "flip-flopper" being sold on DU.

She is a fiscal conservative that while well left of center on other issues may well be not enough left for some on DU - but the DU debate so far seems dishonest as it does not attack specific positions - just asserts GOP themes that will be used on any Democratic nominee. Only Edwards with his 40,000 troop draw down in a year proposal(in this week's announcement interviews) seems to have a position that is both possible and in the right direction for Iraq. I do believe Hillary needs to take the exact same position - soon.



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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Hillary is no saint and no true teller
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 08:10 AM by karynnj
I doubt anyone running for President will EVER be a saint - this is not something saints do. While many may be good men or wowen, I seriously doubt any of the currently mentioned candidates will be nominated for sainthood.

If you want a truth teller - you may want to consider John Kerry. He has a history of telling the truth. As to faith, check out his Pepperdine College speech. http://www.pepperdine.edu/pr/releases/2006/september/ke... A friend who is a religious studies major at a Jesuit College was very impressed by it. I was impressed because you could see in his description of how faith influences him, language he has used to define his positions. The speech is interesting because it is like seeing the foundation of many ideas he has presented. I seriously doubt that many politicians could have written a speech with this much depth.

Kerry's record on healthcare is better than Hillary's. He and Kennedy wrote the legislation that eventually became S-CHIP which Hillary describes in her autobiography as the biggest increase in federally paid insurance. Before passage the bill became Kennedy/Hatch - because bi-partisan sponsors help get passage. In 2004, his plan was the most highly praised and his likely 2008 plan is an expansion on those ideas. That speech is on Johnkerry.com as video under the multi-media tab - it's one of the Faneuil Hall speeches - and under New, then speeches as text.

You say:"Only Edwards with his 40,000 troop draw down in a year proposal(in this week's announcement interviews) seems to have a position that is both possible and in the right direction for Iraq. I do believe Hillary needs to take the exact same position - soon"

This ignores that Kerry (with Feingold) is the one who led on Iraq in 2005 and 2006. Kerry/Feingold is the only reason the Democrats had a debate in the Senate on Iraq - The Clintons, Reid and other centrists were more concerned about the political calendar. Kerry was more concerned with "soldiers dying for a policy that the leaders already knew was wrong." Kerry has spoken of the war as a moral issue - Hillary has rarely even spoken of the war.
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AndreaCG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. John Kerry didn't tell the truth when he said he would
fight election fraud in 2004. Florida and Ohio had very suspicious Election Day results, but he caved without demanding investigations. I donated money to him specifically set aside for contesting election fraud. Did he offer to give the money back? NO! It's sitting in his account for 2008.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Kerry was told by all his lawyers
that there was no case. No one has YET found the type of proof needed to have taken the issue to court. There were costs to do what was done - placing lawyers through the country in 2004. It didn't end up being a Gore situation -

The method used was dispicable, but legal. There is NO law against having too few machines. Kerry and Feingold introduced legislation that would require paper ballots in such cases that would be counted as regular (not provisional) ballots. It didn't pass but they said that it could be used by states as a pattern.

Kerry has been an extremely honest politician. He can't do what couldn't be done.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. I agree Kerry has been there when needed - and has been early - but Kerry
is unlikely to get a second chance as his image, deserved or undeserved, is of one that hesitated on Ohio, and on Swiftboaters, can not give a clear either/or speech because he always needs to nuance, often in hard to follow syntax, every thought, and can not tell a joke or control his image.

Feingold's proposal has no legs, in my opinion, and could never be passed (but heck - just cutting funding for any reason seems out for the next 2 years - so perhaps there is a point to proposing the Fiengold/Kerry position - given that no action will be taken on any position in the next 2 years and all we will see are speeches).

I do not know of Hillary ever not being a truth teller - in private or in public - so I do not follow your assertion that she is not a truth teller.

As to health care, Hillary fought for single payer in 93 and had to be stopped by our (I was part of the insurance legislative crowd at the time) lobbyist promises of insurance company support but only for the universal coverage without single payer. Bill bought "our" lie - as had Nixon in 73 when the same line was used by the health insurance companies to stop Nixon - and Bill ordered Hillary to start up the task force under orders that forbade her looking at single payer - a great victor for "us".

Over half of health payments are via insurance companies with their un-needed 30% overhead - so there is a 15% savings or 300 billion annual savings to be had from single payer.

Heck I'd even take the German 7% employee, 7% employer payroll tax set-up for single payer, although I'd prefer all the funds come from general revenues raised via the income tax, if that approach could be passed. The AMA can no longer stop single payer because of their failure to protect the economics of becoming a doctor - today's MD's come out with loans of $200,000 and are told to work the next 4 years for salaries under $50,000 as residents, with post residency years needed for most specialties. The kids can't even pay urban rents - making the AMA a pretty lousy union. Single payer has young MD support if the crushing loan situation is addressed.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. I'd be interested in knowing WHEN Hillary knew Iraq was in Civil War and why
she did not sign the letter of inquiry for the investigation of Downing Street Memos.

I want to believe Hillary was a truthteller as you do, papau, but after reading Bill's book and how he disregarded truth and justice in favor of 'getting along' with the enemies of this nation's constitution, I feel she will do the same as McCain and cover up AGAIN for BushInc.

NO MORE SECRECY AND PRIVILEGE - the cost to this nation and the world is TOO GREAT.

Everything else will work itself out once TRUTH MATTERS to a president.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Excellent post, blm!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Hillary's book is clear as to how Bill stopped single payer - and you're right that
he did so so as to get along with the insurance companies.

I do not see Hillary having the same approach (which is why she scares the right so much).

"cover up ..for BushInc" I believe is unlikely as I expect the next 2 years - before the 08 election - will reveal all the BusInc sins - at least I hope that is the case.

US media was lead by the nose by Moon's and Scafie's money and planted stories with Murdock selling the idea that tabloid lies that were initially not of interest to the legitimate media were indeed important - and that legitimate media not following those lies was proof of "left" bias. Bill was hit by this and tried to compromise his way through the mess. Occasionally his approach worked - but often the principles of the left went down the tubes.

Now consolidated media control by right wing wealth may mean any Dem that is elected will face the same process of lies being made up on a daily basis, but I suspect Hillary's response will be harder - and tougher on the media - than Bill's.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
52. Will Not Vote For Bush War Enablers - PERIOD!
eom
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
82. Me neither. Doesn't matter what they say or do now. 2900 Americans are dead
because of these cowards.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. We also need some red states or we lose
For the sake of arguement, let's assume Hillary would win ALL the blue states. That is not enough to win the election! Kerry, after all, won all the blue states.

There were some blue states that were very close. We would be foolish to take them for granted.

On the brighter side, there were some red states that also were very close.

This is pointing out the obvious, but we have to find a candidate who can win, or we will spend four more years being right, being righteous, complaining, and not being in power.

As things appear now, we have a wonderful opportunity in 08. Several red states elected Dem senators in 06. If OH, VA, MO or FL goes blue, we win. States such as Colorado, Montana, New Mexico and Nevada will be in play, so the Reps won't be able to take the West for granted.

The problem I have with Hillary is that she, more than anyone else we could nominate, could change this trend. The issue could very easily be shifted away from the problems facing America and towards Hillary as a person, much the same way the Swift Boaters were able to focus everything on Kerry's perceived personal flip flopping, etc instead of the issues. Hillary could be the major issue--love her or hate her--rather than Iraq, health care, minimum wage, or any of a host of issues we could win on if they were in focus.

My most major problem with Hillary, however, is that because she knows she is a lightning rod for the the right, she has for years now played it "safe" and has been afraid to take a liberal position. That's why she voted for the IWR and why she has been silent on many major issues facing our country.

She may in her heart be liberal but, if she is afraid to show it, what difference does it make?

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xkenx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Well put, earthlover! Well thought out explanation, and
welcome to DU.
Here's some food for thought about a candidate who CAN hold blue states and flip some RED states.
2008 is ALL ABOUT flipping a few red states into our column. Hillary certainly can't do it, for the reasons you mentioned. Wes Clark is a progressive wolf in military uniform sheep's clothing. Many Republicans who didn't care for Bush, still couldn't vote for Kerry. Clark was the only Dem. they could consider. Clark has had more EXECUTIVE leadership roles than any Senator by virtue of his military commands where he had responsibility for the lives of hundreds of thousands of servicepeople and their dependents--the whole range of housing, education, training, healthcare, social services, sometimes in a dangerous spot. When Clark was Supreme Allied Commander Europe (Eisenhower's last military position), he had "Head-of-State" status, meaning that he dealt directly with prime ministers/presidents, not underlings. And Clark was virtually the only voice urging help for Rwanda. And Clark and Madeleine Albright were the ones who convinced Clinton to take action against the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, where Clark carried out the military action w/o the loss of a single American life. In this he stood up to the Pentagon brass who wanted nothing to do with "saving Albanians." And it was Clark who served for more than 30 years AFTER getting shot up and winning hero medals in Vietnam, when he could have gone for the big bucks in private industry. Try Swift Boating this guy--the smackdown will be heard around the world. Clark is all about duty, honor, country. When Clark's American Dream/American Hero story gets out to middle America, watch how many red states flip. And the beauty of Wes Clark is that HE IS A REAL LIVE D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T, with a progressive agenda equal to anyone.
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Great post earthlover...
...and welcome to the DU... :hi:
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ManWroteTheBible Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. Good question...
Another one should be... Why do you hate her so much? She voted "for" the quagmire and gets vilified here. Edwards voted the same way and his announcement is heralded as the second coming...
So did Kerry... Why do they get a pass from DUers? Why does Hillary's identical vote make her the second most hated woman (Condi's # 1) on DU?

Hillary was very involved in Bill's presidency. Does anyone not think that he would be involved in Hillary's presidency? Is the prospect of more Clinton years a bad thing? Why the Hillary-hatred? I seriously want to know. You can't say, "It's because she voted for the war..." because so did a lot of other Democrats. Saying, "I just don't like her" without validating why, reminds me of a lot of the fence-sitters about Kerry during 2004. "I just don't like Kerry," is something I heard a lot. Kerry wasn't my first choice, Edwards was. But I voted for Kerry because that's who our party nominated.

I pledge to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is in 2008. Be it Clinton, Obama, Clark, Gore(?), Edwards... whoever's representing the donkey, gets my vote. Can anyone else say the same?

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Both Edwards and Kerry have clearly stated
that they regret their votes and that voting for the IWR was a mistake. Both are publicly on the record for getting us out of Iraq on a short timetable. Clinton has not made such an unambiguous apology and it remains unclear where she stands on what to do with Iraq now. Neither Edwards or Kerry get off the hook completely, at least not as far as I am concerned, but their willingness to admit their mistakes puts both of them ahead of Clinton on this account.

As for the hate issue, I don't hate Clinton, but I sure resent being told over and over and over again by the Clinton boosters, paid or otherwise, that my opposition to Clinton is emotional rather than rational. I oppose her right of center triangulating politics. I'll support a progressive candidate in the primaries, thanks, and I will do so not because of irrational emotions but because of policies advocated and positions taken.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. An additional difference in Kerry's case
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 12:27 PM by karynnj
is that consistent with his promise to speak out if Bush renigged on his publicly made promises, Kerry spoke out when Bush signalled he was going to was before the inspectors finished and before diplomacy was exhausted.

BIll Clinton used Kerry's reason for voting as the reason all Democrats who voted for it other than Leiberman, but that is not true from many of their statements. Also, nearly all of them - other than Harkin and Kerry - did not speak against the invasion before it happened or in the early days when it was popular.

The fact that Kerry spoke out at that time proves that his vote was for the reasons given and he was against the war when it occured. (In fact, the reason Edwards' rejection of his vote was clearer is that he was for the war. Kerry has said hundreds of time that he now knows his vote was wrong and the war is immoral. )
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. I'm afraid Hillary's presidency would follow the same pattern as Bill's - coverup for BushInc.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 12:41 PM by blm
NO MORE SECRECY AND PRIVILEGE - the cost to this nation and the world is TOO GREAT.

Everything else will work itself out once TRUTH MATTERS to a president.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

I actually WANT Hillary to run, so government corruption and how Democrats enable it will become a primary issue.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Hillary is more to the left and tougher on corporations than Bill - now - and I hope
she will be that way in 08 and later
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. Hillary actually supported the war
Kerry, at least, supported a process to get inspectors in Iraq and did not support the war when Bush chose to launch it. In addition, at every turn, Bill supported the war and repeatedly let Bush off the hook on the war because Hillary had decided to play war hawk. It was all part of their strategy to get the Democratic Party ready for her White House coronation.

I could go on, suffice to say the prospect of 8 more years of Clintons is really not appealing to me when we can have policy by people who are more in tune with the needs of workers and the poor.

And almost everybody will vote for whoever the Dem nominee is, so you can pull your hand off your back before you break your arm.

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
51. Because they admitted they made a mistake. Hillary refuses!
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 08:31 AM by Breeze54
Hillary Clinton: No regret on Iraq vote
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/iraq.hillary /

WASHINGTON (CNN) --
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said she is not sorry she voted for a resolution
authorizing President Bush to take military action in Iraq despite the recent
problems there but she does regret "the way the president used the authority."

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sshan2525 Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. Are you referring to primaries or the general election?
I think that she'll win some and lose some primaries. I know that I won't vote for her unless she's just about the only one left by the time of the RI primary. I don't know many people who are enamored of her right now but I suppose that could change.
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ManWroteTheBible Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. But why...
What is it about her that makes you feel that way? Whether someone is liked or not, is not my main concern. I'm interested in the "why". Has anyone (specifically the Hillary-haters) ever asked him/herself why he/she doesn't like Hillary. So far all I've heard is "she voted for the war". The problem with that is that in most instances, the candidate of their choice did too - unless they were for Kucinich. So that leaves us with, "I just don't like her." It also starts to sound like selective media bashing. On the one hand, we (DUers) can give 100-page dissertations over why nobody should trust the media. But in the next breath it's, "Well, the media says she's galvanizing."

If you don't buy the media bullshit when it covers for Bush, then why would you buy into the BS they try to sell you about Hillary.

It doesn't strike anyone as odd that they're already attacking Clinton and Obama? Think about that ticket... Clinton/Obama... There is the potential to breakthrough for 2 sets of America's most opressed peoples: African-Americans and female Americans. If it wasn't a possibility, would they be beginning their "swift-boating" campaigns this early?

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mitchleary Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
9. Why
don't you sit back and think how many people will sit home, and not vote against her. Do you really think there is one conservative person who will sit home if Hillary is the nominee? How many of their votes is she going get? Not to mention Diebold is still out there and with Hillary their job will be easier.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Good point.
I, for one would be sitting at home for the first time with voting.
Hillary has problems in many areas. Her stand on free trade, the war. pandering with her faith geru, and then there is flag burning and video games. Does anyone doubt Liebermann would be her choice for vp.
there is her problems in public speaking. Some said it was like a person reading a list off memo cards
The media obsession with Bill and his past. And would he do it again.
The monarchy problem
She is not loved by voters. Liked by those who support her but, not loved.
You have the Obamamaniacs, the Edwards fanzine groupies, The Gore dreamers, ect.
Hillary doesn't garner that kind of feeling.
Even though I am definitely not a Hillary person, I have tried to just point out the facts and the problems she has.
If she gets in it will be tough.
She also has a problem with the left. She has no base support. The left hates her like the right does. That is not a good start for her.
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AndreaCG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Oh you have to be kidding or seriously deluded
To think Hillary would choose Lieberman as her VP candidate. There's absolutely no basis to believe that, and you didn't even attempt to give reasons why. So much for claiming to point out the facts.

If you want to put McCain or whatever Republican who wins the nomination in office, sit on your hands in 2008. But don't post here whingeing about the further decline of the country if you do.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
70. like HRC or not- it's one thing to criticize
it's another to post nonsense like you have - and then have the gall to "just point out the facts".

What is her stand on free trade, btw? Do you even know? She voted against CAFTA.

Then you list off the usual RW/LW talking points -

"problems with public speaking", "monarchy problems", "not loved by voters" (how do you explain her overwhelming victory for her NY Senate seat? Is it because no one like's her?), "no base support", blah, blah, blah.

----------------

By all means, sit home in 2008. The Democrats don't need people like you.

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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
60. Agreed
I'm one that will sit out a general or vote Green if she's the nominee, and I know I'm not alone. I'm not voting for a war monger under any circumstances.
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PaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
74. yep, and furthermore............
some Dems will sit it out as well. My parents have never voted for a Republican Presidential candidate, and they will not vote for Hillary under any circumstance. Flame away.
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pamela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. Maryland
I think she'd have a tough time in Maryland. I'm sure that a lot of other Marylanders will disagree with me but I don't think this state is as solidly blue as we would like to believe. I think that if Hillary was running against McCain or Guiliani, we would see a KKT-v-Erlich type of result.

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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
14. she's the only one who could run the table
provided she makes no foolish mistakes, which seems unlikely.
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ripple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. It doesn't matter if she wins ALL of the blue states
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 12:15 PM by ripple
She would need to win most of the purple states and depending on how many of those she picks up, possibly some red ones, as well. I don't see that happening.

Hillary's base is established and anyone who doesn't already support her probably isn't going to. We need to look well beyond the primaries. We would be shooting ourselves in the foot to nominate a candidate that has little chance of pulling off a win in the general.



Edited to add: I'm not a Hillary basher, but she isn't my candidate of choice.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. The discussion on candidates for 08 here at DU is empty rhetoric.
We all know it is predetermined. It is all speculation, my friend.

The choice has been made already, they just want us to think we have a choice.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. She would not lose any state carried by John Kerry...
And in my opinion would have a very good shot at picking up some combination Ohio, Florida, Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
66. Not if McCain is the nominee
Do you really think Hillary could beat McCain in Arizona?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. No...you are right about that...
McCain would take his home state...

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
27. Mine.
While officially a "blue state" because of the larger population in cities, it's a close call, and most of the state is red and rural. If some of the "blues," myself included, won't vote for her, and I assure you that I am not alone, how is she going to win this state?

:shrug:
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I am curious as to what policy position of Hillary's makes you prefer a GOP win n/t
n/t
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. I don't think you get what she said
Her state has some blue in populated areas but is surrounded by red rural zones.

I'm not sure what state that she is referring to, but it could be a lot of the midwest and even New England and California... she didn't say that SHE would vote against Mrs. Clinton, from what I gathered...
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. thanks for the interpretation that the poster was speaking of others on the left - not herself n/t
n/t
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. .
I agree with Zulchzulu's general point, on the other hand, check out LWolf's sig. Sadly, her position is very clear concerning that matter.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. Yoo-hoo...
Hey there, Hav, I'm right above you, response # 27. Don'tcha think it might be good to address judgements about my comments "face to face" rather than downthread?

If there is anything about my voting preferences you would like to discuss, just ask, and I'll be happy to do so. Do not, however, think that my sig line means anything more than what it states: Nominate someone I can't in good conscience support, and you choose to leave my vote behind. Your choice.

I see nothing sad about honesty, transparency, or expecting the same from those who choose to go down a different path than my own.

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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. .
Yoo-hoo right back at you ;).

I have no questions and no need to discuss your sigline. As I said, the point you make is clear. There is no room for a debate but I had the impression that the poster I replied to wasn't aware of that. So that's why I posted.

The reason I used "sad" was simply because it seems that no candidate who is currently seen as having a chance of winning the primaries, will get your vote. But that doesn't mean that I found your motives (whatever they are) for having that opinion to be sad.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I hope that's not true.
I think that there are many candidates that I would vote for; some are perceived to be "electable," some not. Most are not on the table at this time. While it's true that I prefer candidates out of the mainstream, not being a mainstream person myself, there is room for compromise.

I would compromise for Gore, for Feingold. Possibly for Schweitzer. There are probably more that I don't know about, that don't get press because they aren't annointed "top tier" by the media or by party power-holders.

There are others that would not be a compromise at all; they generally fall into the supposed "unelectable" category, lol.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. You are correct Hav - I wasn't aware of the nuance. Thanks for the info n/t
n/t
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
54. That's a deliberate falsehood.
I, for one, don't buy into the political manipulation of "spinning" something to appear different from reality. I prefer simple, straightforward honesty. I have never said, never will say, and never will, period, prefer a GOP win.

That dirty little "spin" used to bully people into obedience won't fly here. I'll vote for the best person I can. If the democratic party doesn't nominate the best, and therefore doesn't get my vote, then the democratic party failed to earn my vote. Period. I still won't have voted for, or "prefer" the GOP. Obviously, in that case, I'd prefer neither.

I am not a party cheerleader. When the party earns my support with current positions and actions on issues, the party gets my support. When the party nominates someone I can, in good conscience, support, then that candidate gets my support. When the party chooses to move in other directions, then the party consciously chooses to leave my vote behind. That's fine; I respect the right to choose, including the party's right to choose to lose my vote. The reality is that courting "swing" voters may be a bigger priority than retaining my vote. I can be realistic about that. How about you?
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Very well said n/t
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Then what value is the threat in your sig line?
Why should we care, if not in fear of a GOP win?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. It's not a threat.
I figure, if I'm honest and upfront ahead of time, then it is the responsibility of the rest of the voters to do the same. Be honest and upfront. If you are courting a different demographic, and are willing to leave voters like myself behind for whatever reason, that's fine. There are legitimate reasons to court one group and move away from others. Just be honest about it. Don't whine, complain, and act as if my vote was "owed." Also, don't blame me if things don't go the way you want them to. If you push a candidate that doesn't win, be accountable for the poor choice, or the poor campaign. If you choose a candidate that wins, and then doesn't somehow meet the expectations of those that voted, be honest. Don't pretend that the candidate will suddenly, once in office, champion issues that were left behind during the campaign.

Why do you feel threatened? It isn't as if you value the votes of folks like me, anyway. :shrug:
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #64
71. Why put it in your signature, then?
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 12:50 AM by LoZoccolo
If it's "fine", why bring it up? What value does it have to us?

And why would you imply we would "blame" you for something, if that thing is not something undesirable to us? And if you're pointing out something undesirable that will happen due to your reaction to something we do, isn't that a threat?

I guess it's not a threat, it's just a statement that you'll do something we won't like if we do a particular thing. The two concepts are miles apart.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. "Why put it in the signature then?"
I thought I made that perfectly clear, to anyone who really wants to know.

It's in the signature so that people can't "pretend" that they didn't know they were leaving a voter behind when they decided to march in a particular direction. So that, years after the fact, there won't be any LEGITIMATE whining about people who didn't go along.

It's called being honest and upfront about reality. If the Democratic Party prefers to court conservative swing voters, they can't HONESTLY, WITH ANY INTEGRITY, bitch about losing the left.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Why would people while about people who didn't go along?
Unless we wouldn't like it, maybe? So if you say you'll do something we don't like, it's not a threat? Please advise.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. People whine because it's the american pastime
to blame failure or mistakes or unintended consequences on others instead of taking responsibility.

I don't really care one way or the other who likes it, or doesn't. Other people's preferences don't drive my personal choices. I just expect people to be responsible for their own choices. If I make a conscious decision to make sure that my vote will only go to candidates or issues that I truly support, rather than the "lesser of two evils," I can accept that the candidates I vote for may not win. I can accept that the majority may not agree with me. I won't blame other voters for not voting "my way." I'd like the same in return. There is nothing threatening about that, unless someone perceives honesty, transparency, or acceptance to be "threatening."
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. What is your definition of a threat? n/t
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Threat:
A declaration of the intent to cause harm.

I don't believe that exercising my right to cast my vote according to my conscience is causing harm. If so, then no one is free to cast a vote according to their conscience, and democratic principles are dead in the U.S..
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. This is a non-sequitor.
A: I don't believe that exercising my right to cast my vote according to my conscience is causing harm.
B: If so, then no one is free to cast a vote according to their conscience, and democratic principles are dead in the U.S..

B does not follow from A.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. You are correct.
A is correct. B is better stated: If people are not free to cast a vote according to their conscience, then democratic principles are dead in the U.S.. While they are loosely connected, one does not follow the other.

I guess this could lead to a discussion about who is allowed to cast a vote and who is not, but that is off topic and doesn't seem necessary at this point.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #54
68. You do not expect the consequence to be a GOP win if those not winning in the primary walk - saying
the democratic party hasn't nominated the best, and therefore doesn't get my vote?

If you see that such an approach makes a GOP win easier, then choosing that approach is equivalent to saying you prefer "making a point" to the Democratic Party winning an election.

You say you are not a party cheerleader - I believe you meant you are not a party member and are progressive that believes continued GOP rule is better than half a loaf of your progressive goals succeeding because you are an all or nothing kind of guy.

I do not understand the logic - but if it floats your boat, have at it.

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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #54
72. you are a "swing" voter.
like most people i think, very few blindly vote the party line anymore.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. I was going to say that
But I didn't want to sound too pessimistic. But I can definitely see Hillary losing Oregon if the Greens break away or stay home, and the independents go for McCain or Giuliani. She would really have to play this state just right, and all she's done so far is piss people off. I'll vote for the Dem for sure, but I don't think we can count on the anti-Repub vote the way we could in 2004 or 2006.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. If indies go for GOPer, no Dem can win- if Greens break off a Dem can still win -I hope! n/t
n/t
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
34. Let's see what happens in the primaries first
Don't jump the gun. It's over a year from now. That's infinity politically.


2004 Breakdown

As for a blue state she may not win if she got the nomination, I'm guessing Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Michigan... it's kind of pointless given she has to go through the primaries first and then who is the Republican? Speculation galore...
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Pennsylvania.
Of course it depends who the republican is.

If it's Chuck Hagel or even Mitt Romney, Clinton has real trouble in the rural part of the state, and the suburbs are lukewarm to her. Turnout will be down in the burbs if they don't see the republican as a nutjob.

IMO as a resident who has talked to a few people.

But, I will not support her just because she can "win" anyway. She's a soulless, opportunistic **** in my opinion, and in the primaries I am pretty much ABH if my preferred candidate doesn't run.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
58. I agree completely
She will NOT win PA if the Repubs have McCAin or Rudy or someone else viewed as moderate. She will get creamed in the "T", and the labor support may even be lukewarm as they are pissed about Bill Clinton's trade deals.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
37. Name one blue state any democrat can't win...unfortunately, that's not enough. nt
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
38. Using Hillary's own words and record against her is not bashing
The antiwar movement will use Hillary to beat Hillary.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. True - and indeed is the right way to have a policy debate - Many agree w/ Hill - others
do not -

and that is what primaries are for.

I also wonder why she can not be as specific as Edwards and call for a withdrawal of a given number by a given date, and make that statement now.

I worked as a pure anti-war in 64, 68, and 72 (SDS meetings in Boston on the Boston Common had only a couple of Dozen attendees in 63 but we met and plotted!). But the pure approach got me Nixon, so I am not "pure" as to anti-war anymore. But I understand and sympathize with the position.
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SmellsLikeDeanSpirit Donating Member (471 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
41. Depends on who the GOP candidate is, but lets say she goes up against McCain....
She loses....

- New Hampshire
- Pennsylvania
- Michigan
- Wisconsin
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. I know of no state polls in NH, Penn, Mich, Wisc - but even if there are it is early n/t
n/t
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
42. Well, against Newt Gingrich or Sam Brownback, she could win 35 states
It's impossible to answer your question because it's too early to tell.
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
43. Who is her opponent? If McCain, NH, maybe Minn., and
they don't seem to like her much in Iowa (which is purple.)
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. I think McCain's surge idea is self-detructing his image - giving him a Bush can't change mind image
n/t
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. So she can win...she's lost her moral compass. Why would we want her?
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
55. Pennsylvania.
And our 20+ electoral votes. She'll win Philly and Pittsburgh but the burbs that were so key to Kerry winning the state and the rest of the rural areas will vote heavily against her. PA turns red on her.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
56. Your question is based on the assumption that the terms red/ble state dichotomy is real.
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 11:52 AM by Odin2005
AFAIC the Red/Blue State thing is a media invention to discourage Democrats from pushing things like Dean's 50 State Strategy. The Right relies on the Politics of Division, especially the Culture Wars, to divide the American people and the Democrats need to fight it with the Politics of Unity. The MSM is pushing Hillary because she symbolizes the left-wing side of the Politics of Division (of course, she is a DLC psudoliberal hack, but the average person thinks of her as some uber-liberal) in the mind of the American people. We need to nominate someone like John Edwards or Barack Obama, someone that pushes the Politics of Unity.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
59. Name a red state she can win
And if you think she's winning in a place like Pennsylvania, you're dreaming.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
75. No bashing here
But I think 'enough already' has a good point. She *might* take the blue states, but she will be NOWHERE in the red states. I also think that Hillary supporters and Hillary herself underestimate the level of animus she engenders in many people. Where some other Dem candidates might get a sort of 'eh' opposition, Hillary is going to get a "HELL NO". I am NOT saying I agree or that it is right. I am just calling it like I see it.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
77. why would anyone want her to win?
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
78. Deleted
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 11:16 AM by doc03
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
79. I don't think it matters Red or Blue, we need someone that
can unite the country and get away from this Red and Blue mentality. She is not the person that can do that.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
80. Name one Democrat
from the NE that was elected President since JFK. I don't mean elected (Kerry) one that actually held office.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
83. I have no valid proof for this, but I'll say Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 03:41 PM by Clark2008
Just a gut feeling given the demographics of those states.

And, I'm in a red/purple state, so I'm by no means an expert - I just have friends in those two states who tell me that it will be difficult to keep them blue should she be the nominee.

Oh - and I'm not a Hillary basher. I'm not a huge fan of hers and think the only reason her name is out front is because she's married to Bill, but I don't hate her either. I think she's far more competent than most of the Republican candidates.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
85. New Hampshire and Pennsylvannia
nt.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
92. Take a look at
the 1992 vote. Look at the Mississippi River states. Go north from N.O. and see all the red states that WJC won and now take into consideration all the blue states that Dems won in 2004 and HRC will win those, plus now add the MS River states that are red in 2004 and there my friends you have the election of 2008.....
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