Obama or Edwards or Clark or Kerry win in '08, some DUers will complain if Dean doesn't get credit

[wndycty]

This is getting ridiculous. What happened this past November is amazing and its due in large part to the leadership of the Howard Dean, but others are very deserving of praise as well. No disrespect to Dean but I'm sick and tired of hearing about it everytime someone feels Dean is not getting enough love.

[DaveinMD]

1. not some DUer

one in particular. You know which one. So do I.

[wndycty]

2. Oh woah is me. . .LOL

:kick:

[madfloridian]

8. Name them and let's talk about it.

It is getting to where I can not post here without someone questioning my posts.

I did not criticize, just pointed out stuff.

So read it and let's talk. What did I say wrong, and what do you disagree with. Or is it just me?

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/854

[wiley]

18. Dean gets a lot of 2006 and beyond credit.

DU is not a Dean support group or cheering squad, however. With all due respect and admiration, your posts typically "sound like" those of a conspiracy theorist. Politicians and their supporters shit on each other, and it gets posted here often. Dean is a great Democratic leader. Put that in your tag line, shorten your posts, and don't use the word I in them. Maybe people will read past your screen name. These are just my personal suggestions and observations. Just saying. Ignore me if you like. It's always great to read your posts. But I'll never post anything like this to you again,okay? Peace,Mad.

[illinoisprogressive]

3. I think it's due to the Carvelle rant

People were upset over the failed coup against Dr. Dean by what many concider a coup engineered quietly by the Hillary camp. They wanted Dean out for some reason. this gave rise to people feeling angry, upset and somewhat protective of Dr. Dean.
They saw this as an attempt to control the party by a few insiders who were going to control the politics and policy of the party. Especially with the rise of the economic populists who won this time. People like Brown and Webb. This did not make certain DLC people happy. A threat to free trade, maybe.
I don't know the reason. Just guessing. Dean branching out will encompass many different types of dems who can win in thier districts if they focus on thier areas concerns.
And now the rise of populism will snowball and define the party eventually and this is probably a threat to the Clinton camp.

[wndycty]

4. Just remember Dean does not plan on being on the ballot in '08

He is going to play a vital role in helping us retake the White House, but its not about him its about our field of candidates and the eventual nominee.

[madfloridian]

7. Who do you think he will discriminate against?

And why? Let's talk about it so I can post without being called out like this.

[madfloridian]

11. Wait...I see what you mean. It is not about him the candidate.

Not at all. But I posted about him as chairman, and I see no reason not to do so. I don't see what I did that made you so angry. After all just days ago they tried to discredit him. Dean on TV has often said he will not talk about 08 at all, that he must be the referee.

However, I don't see why what I posted could hurt anyone at all?

Only if Carville was right in this post.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/838

Maybe I just don't see things that clearly, but I did not attack anyone.

OR what I fear is being said is that because I was a strong Dean advocate, still am in many ways....that I should not post about anything related to 08. I hope that is not what you mean.

I have been here since 2002, I do not go on the attack, I post what is in my mind, and I don't insult others. I especially do not call them out publicly and obviously.

I have no favorite yet for 08, not at all.

[madfloridian]

5. Go after me by name. I have a tough skin.

I posted that post because of the two different ways of giving credit.

The ones mentioned in the Time article needed the voters and needed a party base to win. No one can do it alone.

It is just more fun to pile on one person than to realize that there is a huge possibility the DC folks are going to shut us out of decisions about Iraq and other things....just like they did before.

Basically the same people took the post the wrong way...the ones who often "misunderstand" what I post.

So here it is...pick it apart, and let's talk about it.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/854

Correct me where I am wrong, tell me what you don't like...besides me. which is pretty obvious. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

6. Duplicate...please delete.

.

[madfloridian]

9. Here is more about it.

As I say, let's talk about it. Point out where in the post I was wrong, and post your views.

Here is the post about the "coup", and yes they really did try to discredit him...which is the same as discrediting the people of the party whom he represents.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/838

Not sure yet what I did to bring on so much wrath, I did not post that much in the Times thread. I gave credit, I did not attack, I just pointed out two ways of giving credit.

[wndycty]

10. I love it. . .

. . .you are keeping this post alive. I don't even have to keep it kicked, its comical watching you respond to yourself. Since the "Daily Show" is in reruns and "Countdown" was a Ford retrospective this is my comic relief. Thanks.

[madfloridian]

12. It's a good thing to try to understand stuff.

If you find me comic relief, ok by me. In fact, on edit, you started the thread, and I think since you called me out...you should explain what I did wrong. Now that i think about it.

See, here's the problem. The credit was given two ways. One to just 4 people, whom I agree richly deserved credit.

But think about this....many of us donate monthly to the DNC, plus we donate to candidates as well. Hubby and I have worked for candidates in Florida this year and the last two years because we got back into politics in 03.

So I feel like we were an important part of the win. Yet the attacks against Dean that started right after election were just as much attacks on the activists in the party. My post showed that credit was given two ways, but that Dean gave credit to the activists and workers.

I liked that, and I acknowledged that in my post.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/854

I would like to know what is so wrong about the post, since frankly you called me out.

[hijinx87]

14. you have an odd definition of "comical". n/t

[hijinx87]

13. I think it is largely true

that howard dean doesn't get the credit he deserves, and the
success in november is just another example of that.

he is quite the beltway outsider, while emanuel and shumer are
consummate insiders. it just stands to reason that the media
will play up those that are more accessible to them.

also, he took a lot of heat on his 50 state strategy, not the
least of which came from rahm emanuel. it took guts and strong
courage of conviction to stick to his plan.

and it worked.

I'm certainly not forming a conspiracy theory here, I just think
that howard dean is thoroughly unappreciated, and may be viewed as
a bit of an undesirable by the rest of the party.

I have nothing but the utmost admiration and respect for the man.

[madfloridian]

15. Thanks.

I appreciate your post. I am getting the feeling that there is a group who don't think I should post about Dean at all....which is really not fair.

I thought my post about the Time article was fair in the light of what happened with Carville who implied Rahm was complicit. I just think it was fair.

[hijinx87]

16. for every one of the people slamming you about dean

there are 20 you never hear from that are being informed
about dean and his accomplishments by your posts.


(on edit)
so keep 'em coming!

[Upfront]

21. Agree with you hijinx87

I have always read Mads posts with great pleasure as I learn much from them. In this case it is more evidence of the DLC attacking the DNC and how they want control of the Democratic party. Dean has been great in his leadership roll. I know he is on my side and there are not many politicians I feel that way about. Keep us informed Mad, I love it.

[wndycty]

19. Oh woah is me. . .

Oh woah is me. . .

[Ninja Jordan]

17. "the Howard Dean" indeed

[fujiyama]

20. Well Dean has been all but ignored

by the media for his part in winning back Congress. He did set forth a fifty state strategy, which the media also seems to have forgotten.

I can understand the irritation and bitterness that his supporters feel.

Fortunately, Dean doesn't seem to be doing this for personal glory...and has been unfazed in the unfair criticism he has received (especially the recent outbursts from Carville).

[lojasmo]

22. If those people don't win in 2008, it will be THEIR fault

For running a mealy mouthed campaign, and hiring beltway insiders like out last candidate did.

Dean is running a 50 state campaign, designed to reform the campaign apparatus over the next TWENTY years. It helped in 2006, and it will help in 2008, but though Dean will deserve SOME credit for a win in 2008, it is ultimately the CANDIDATE and the MESSAGE wich will win or lose the campaign in 2008.

I hope we pick a winner this time, instead of the "electable" one.

[lojasmo]

23. Alerted by the way...personal attack thread.

Are you one of Deb's stalkers too, Windycity?

[ncrainbowgrrl]

24. Locking.

This thread is flamebait and a general attack on a group of DU members.

Thanks for understanding.
-ncrainbowgrrl
gdp mod