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[eileen_d]

1. I don't find it offensive.

At this point, it's just predictable. It's the whole "media annointing" theory, and the accompanying use of the word "sheeple," that I find offensive.

[Nicholas_J]

22. I find sheeple most amusing

when it comes from people who follow a candidates who's records do not in any way match the stuff they are using to try to get elected.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

38. I can't agree with you more

Lobbyist money...in the top 4 of beneficiary of lobbyist money...
Now: Don't let the door hit you
IWR - I voted for it
Now: It was wrong...I was lied to

Need I say more?

[Hoppin_Mad]

47. A Kerry supporter calling other supporters "sheepie" - That's rich -nt-

[Nicholas_J]

60. Sure...

Lets looks at a certain doctors records on the Iraq War early on...

DEAN: Sure, I think the Democrats have pushed him into that position and the Congress, and I think that's a good thing. And I think he is trying to do that. We still get these bellicose statements.

Look, it's very simple. Here's what we ought to have done. We should have gone to the U.N. Security Council. We should have asked for a resolution to allow the inspectors back in with no pre-conditions. And then we should have given them a deadline saying "If you don't do this, say, within 60 days, we will reserve our right as Americans to defend ourselves and we will go into Iraq."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/printable523726.shtml

"As I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

"I agree with President Bush -- he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is," Dean said. " is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver. He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under U.N. Security Council Resolutions. And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb. Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country. So I want to be clear. Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given."

A month later on Meet the Press, Dean said he believed that Iraq "is automatically an imminent threat to the countries that surround it because of the possession of these weapons."

Dean may have thought there was "no question" that Hussein was a threat before the war, but looking back now, his hindsight is telling him the opposite. Just this week, for example, Dean mentioned at the DNC's New Hampshire debate "that there was no serious threat to the United States from Saddam Hussein."

Similarly, the New York Times reported today that Dean said, plainly, "I never said Saddam was a danger to the United States, ever." In light of the Face the Nation quote from 2002, we know that's just not correct.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html

Or how about:

Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies...

The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust." n15

http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

And no U.S. university or college is friendlier to Dean than the University of California, the Center for Responsive Politics found in a study of presidential campaign contributors from the education sector. UC system faculty and staff had anted up $51,124 for the former Vermont governor by Sept. 30, more than twice the amount given by donors from the next-closest university on the list -- Harvard, at $24,150....

Dean collected almost $719,000 from education interests through Sept. 30, ranking that sector third most-lucrative behind retirees ($1.6 million) and lawyers ($932,000).

Among other contenders for the Democratic presidential nomination, education is the 10th most lucrative sector ($325,915) for U.S. Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass.; eighth ($174,324) for U.S. Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C.; 15th ($107,420) for U.S. Rep. Dick Gephardt, D-Mo.; ninth ($207,640) for U.S. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn.; third ($119,898) for retired Gen. Wesley Clark; third ($69,809) for U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich D-Ohio; 16th ($3,250) for former U.S. Sen. Carol Moseley Braun; and 18th ($2,990) for the Rev. Al Sharpton.



http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87~11268~1870457,00....


Pot, meet kettle.

[eileen_d]

34. PeteNYC - maybe you should be more specific about the accusations

you are complaining about. There are some problems with the primaries, such as those reported in Michigan, where people did not get to the polls at all. Those things must be investigated. However, I agree that other rumors of "voter fraud" around here are basically speculation and innuendo (especially when fingers are pointed).

So what do you think?

[Democrats unite]

2. Whose floating these notions?

[rumguy]

3. yes it is baseless and insulting - eom

[waldenx]

4. Why do you care?

the DLC won, so what difference does it make HOW they won?
Thats all that matters, winning, right?

[MercutioATC]

5. I don't think it's necessarily valid, but I don't think it's offensive.

[mydawgmax]

6. Tired of it.

The washington party organization was completely behind Dean. These are the people that coordinate the caucus and tally the results. And still, there are insinuations of fraud.

[Eloriel]

50. WA's Gov. endorsed Kerry

Puts a stake in the heart of your argument.

There were many errors made in Washington. THere were fun and games in Iowa, and yes, the Kerry/Vilsack machine was behind those. There were dirty tricks against Dean abounding.

It's a shame you're tired of it. And PeteNYC, it's a shame you find the allegations offensive.

I find it far more offensive that people who are on the winning side are okay that dirty tricks and legal (probably legal, tho I'm guessing not in all cases) but highly unethical fun and games during caucuses got their guy to where he is.

ROTFL -- and then there are those who want to woo us Dean supporters to Kerry's camp. Can anyone beat that for a really good joke?

[eileen_d]

53. Wooing Dean supporters to Kerry's camp is definitely a joke in my eyes.

The "untransferable" can stay that way, as far as I'm concerned.

Edit: Not that all Dean supporters are "untransferable" of course...

[oxymoron]

61. ROFL at that post.

What errors were made in WA? What "fun and games" in IA? You don't have an iota of evidence to back you up. Nice try Eloriel, but your guy lost fair and square. The people have spoken.

What is unethical is discounting the will of the people.

[woofless]

89. That's funny,

I haven't met a Democrat out here who gives a damn about what Gary Locke says or does. He is not well liked.

[Bombtrack]

7. there are alot of paranoid, dopey people here

I'm not pleased that we've gone from having the least electable serious candidate in my view to the second least electable in my view as frontrunner, but I haven't lost it like the people who think that everyone but Dean and Kucinich want Bush to win

[oxymoron]

8. Of course they're offensive.

And they are being floated by a lot of small minded political neophytes that don't seem to realize how it hurts their cause.

edit for typo

[George_Bonanza]

9. Right on

I really appreciate what Dean has done for the Democrats. He will go down as one of the more influential, or at least popular, Democrats in recent memory. However, in politics, there are winners and losers. Many things contribute to that: personal gaffs, voter unpredictability, "old news" syndrome, and most of all, over-exposure on media. It happened to Al Gore. It happened to Howard Dean. He was simply too great too soon. He was open to the media way too much and the fervent interest in him was running out of steam. Did the media play a role in his downfall? How could it not? But was there a plan to take out Dean specifically, apart from the fact that he was the richest and most popular? No. That's like saying that there was an anti-DLC coalition that engineered Al Gore's downfall. Remember that this was the same media that gave Dean 3 magazine covers when barely anybody knew or cared about the 2004 elections, while they were shut out from the media designated has-been candidates, like John Kerry. Mr. Kerry has earned every bit of press he gets right now. He only had to trigger one of the most shocking upset stories in American politics, and undertake one of the most daring and brilliantly successful campaign strategies in recent memory.

[dsc]

10. shame on those black voters in Detroit who had their precints switched

they should have sit down, at the back of the bus, and shut up. That, and one very specific charge, with names, of numbers being put in wrong in WA. I have no idea if that is true or not but I do think such a specific charge warrents being investigated.

[bornskeptic]

73. I don't know anything about the Michigan,

but accusations of fraud in the Washington caucuses are just silly. The only thing that matters is the delegates selected to the county convention. The delegates know who they are, and the number of delegates to each county convention is public knowledge. Even if the state totals were falsely reported, it wouldn't affect the final outcome. I personally feel that caucuses like those in Iowa or here in Washington are much superior to primaries, but whether you like them or not, they are virtually fraud-proof.

[dsc]

88. The accusation was that

the numbers put in were wrong. Yes the delegates would know who they were but by the time they meet the race would be over. So those delegates would be stuck voting for a dropped out candidate. There would be use in doing what was alledged. I have no idea if the allegation is accurate but it isn't something that would have no effect.

In Michigan there were several Detroit landlords who refused to honor agreements to hold caucuses at the last minute meaning voters had to scurry all around to find their voting places. The victims were mostly blacks.

[IndianaGreen]

94. How about the DoveTurnedHawk post about the Kerry supporter he caught

at his Clark meeting. DTH posted a thread about that in this forum last week. The Kerry supporter was ID'ed by someone else. When DTH confronted him, the man confessed that he wanted to be a delegate so bad that he would have gone in as a Clark delegate.

DTH (in rightful indignation IMHO) got the Kerry supporter to leave.

[mitchum]

11. Offensive and predictable...

but what else should one expect from true believers?

[arewethereyet]

12. its predictable but kinda sad

some people are more interested in excuses than solutions.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Well, I find it offensive that when people report inconsistencies they see

in the primary elections (and there are plenty to report) that people try to censor them by trying to make them feel guilty for asking questions when they believe there are valid questions to ask. I don't think anyone is implying that Kerry is messing with the votes, but rather that perhaps the party leadership (or individuals within the leadership) might be up to no good. Caucus sites are being moved at the last minute leaving Dean supporters unaware while Kerry supporters mysteriously know where to go. Changed polling places are being closed after voters who complained about the relocation were promised extra time to get there to vote. And right now, I've personally read many reports from Maine caucus goers who reported Dean won their caucuses or it was a dead heat between Dean and Kerry (Dean was faring VERY well in the largest population centers, by the way), yet the returns we're seeing are implying Kerry is way ahead.

If you were in our shoes you'd be asking questions and raising your eyebrows as well.

[oxymoron]

17. I don't see a shred of evidence in your post.

If you have some proof that the party leaders are messing with the returns, I'd like to see it. All that I have seen in your posts on the subject to date is speculation and innuendo based on anecdotal evidence.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

24. Read the article on CNN

Then watch for the press conference tomorrow with the NAACP, The Black Caucus Leaders and a few other organizations while they talk about the mess in Detroit.

How can people not know about these things?

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. It's kinda hard to read with their heads buried in the sand

Just like Bush stole the presidency, Democratic leadership is stealing the nomination. People want to beat Bush so badly that they have fallen victim to tunnel vision and are getting sucked in fast and hard. Kerry can't beat Bush and the media is only propping him up now because all those in the media, party leadership and in political power fear empowerment of the American people. It's so painfully obvious what's happening to those who aren't being sucked in. By the time people figure out what's going on, it's going to be too late.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

39. I agree with you 100%

[boxster]

40. Oh, please.

Tunnel vision? Look in the mirror, KK. Rather than face the obvious fact that your guy is getting his butt kicked by John Kerry in nearly every state, you're ready to jump on any conspiracy theory out there about how the "system" is now screwing Howard Dean. You quote anecdotal evidence as if it were proof and claim that actual numbers are "circumstantial" evidence.

Give us a break. If you honestly think that John Kerry is beating Dean handily in nearly every single state because of voter impropriety or because the DLC is cooking the books, no one is going to convince you otherwise.

If you have proof, let's see it. Otherwise, these accusations are meaningless. If the evidence is as readily available as you claim, then I suggest you contact the proper authorities. If it's so obvious, it should be easy to prove.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. Well doesn't this sound familiar...

Oh, please.


Tunnel vision? Look in the mirror, boxster. Rather than face the obvious fact that your guy got his butt kicked by Bush in Florida, you're ready to jump on any conspiracy theory out there about how the "system" screwed Al Gore. You quote anecdotal evidence as if it were proof and claim that actual numbers are "circumstantial" evidence.

Give us a break. If you honestly think that Bush didn't beat Gore handily in Florida because of voter impropriety or because the GOP is cooking the books, no one is going to convince you otherwise.

If you have proof, let's see it. Otherwise, these accusations are meaningless. If the evidence is as readily available as you claim, then I suggest you contact the proper authorities. If it's so obvious, it should be easy to prove.

Notice how your post sounds when I apply your comments to the 2000 election? Yep, we all saw how well contacting the proper authorities worked in 2000, didn't we. You really should be ashamed of the way you're discounting these claims. You should want to see them investigated, especially after 2000. I trust I've made my point.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

65. Well done

[BuelahWitch]

87. Go KaraokeKarlton!

:bounce:

[boxster]

101. You're missing the incredibly obvious difference, KK.

Are Republicans in charge of counting votes? Is the Supreme Court of Maine going to stop the vote counts?

No, this is not the same as Florida, and you know it. Gore didn't lose the vote by 20% to Bush.

You're taking anecdotal evidence that you have very little possibility of ever verifying and converting it to rock-solid proof of a conspiracy. Then, you're expecting us to jump on the bandwagon.

The bottom line is that you see a conspiracy where none exists. You're so desperate to explain why Dean is doing so poorly that you see a conspiracy in everything.

[KaraokeKarlton]

107. Oh, there's something that makes it "different" all right

Such comments are ten time MORE despicable when they come from your own party. Democrats would expect it from the GOP, but when they come from fellow Democrats it makes it even worse. It's the worst kind of betrayal. The attitude you're taking is hurtful to your fellow Democrats.

Oh, and why is half of Maine's votes left unreported? What about the last 60 precincts in Washington? You don't find that at all strange? I sure do. I also find it strange when polling places get changed at the last minute and the only ones who seem to not have been informed are Dean supporters. Yes, something smells bad in many of the primaries and caucuses we've had so far. I, for one, want to know why, and it's my right as an American citizen to question things I am suspicious of.

[MaineDem]

109. "why is half of Maine's votes left unreported"

The counting and tabulating were suspended early this morning. It has resumed now.

[boxster]

111. I never said that I didn't find voter irregularities to be a problem.

The problem I have is that you are taking a minuscule fraction of the available data and assuming it applies wholesale and turning into a conspiracy to screw Dean. You STILL have yet to provide one shred of evidence, so instead, you name call and change the subject. Yeah, that'll convert a lot of people to your cause.

But of course, it's not possible that Dean is losing because of Dean or because people think Kerry is a better candidate or because people think Kerry is more electable. It **must** be the media or the other candidates or voter discrepancies. What a joke. Never mind that he's lost big in nearly every other state, too.

By the way, Maine is counting again. But, of course, you'd rather ignore that because it counters your rock-solid theory that Maine screwed Dean out of 20% of the vote.

[boxster]

112. Meanwhile, you completely ignore posts...

like this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=294992#296242

Hmm, someone who is actually *in* Maine and involved in the vote counting. Apparently, MaineDem wasn't involved in your huge conspiracy to screw Dean out of 20% of the vote.

[sistersofmercy]

80. Trust me...

It's futile. The argument is always full of dubious assertions, appeal to imaginary authority and emotional pleas.
You should be ashamed I tell you, you should be ashamed! :evilgrin:

[boxster]

105. Yeah, no kidding.

Everything's a conspiracy. Never mind that Kerry has won just about everything else in the primaries and caucuses so far. It would be one thing if this race was even close, but Kerry's up by nearly 20%. That's a lot of irregularities and manipulation! :eyes:

I guess the DLC must be working overtime altering thousands and thousands of votes to make sure Dean gets screwed over, hmm?

Geez, and I'm not even a Kerry supporter. I just think the whole "Dean should have won Maine" assertion is ludicrous.

[oxymoron]

41. I am familiar with the problems in Detroit.

But I have yet to see any evidence of some kind of conspiracy involving party leaders. Two very different things.

How can people not know these things?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

68. I have yet to see

Anyone directly accuse any candidate by name. There is a bit of tnesion with the DNC but that has just about always been there. I for one think it would be an outrage if Kerry or Clark or Edwards or Dean or Sharpton or Kucinich or any candidate lost one single vote because someone somewhere screwed things up. Wether it be intentional or just plain lack of organization. You should feel the same.

[madfloridian]

86. Good! They are going to have the press conference.

I was afraid someone would try to stop them. Good for them. The same type of stuff happened in Florida, and it must never ever happen again. Anywhere.

[KaraokeKarlton]

27. No, it's eyewitness reports from people who have seen it firsthand

In any court of law, a witnesses testimony ALWAYS trumps circumstantial evidence. I find it strange that eyewitness reports are ignored when it comes to elections. That doesn't seem very democratic to me. People are reporting serious problems they have witnessed and are being ignored. And we wonder why Bush is in the White House. What can we expect when reports of problems are ignored by Democrats? :shrug:

[boxster]

36. Circumstantial? You must be joking.

Ah, so actual votes and actual caucus results are now circumstantial? Oh, please.

It's a hell of a lot more accurate than extrapolating numbers based on stories told to you by a bunch of pro-Dean blog members and DU members.

We're not the ones you should be ranting to. If you have proof, I would suggest that you contact the proper people. Don't complain about it unless you're willing to follow up.

"In any court of law, a witnesses testimony ALWAYS trumps circumstantial evidence."

Wrong. Witnesses are discredited all the time. In the event that witnesses are unreliable, circumstantial evidence is often much more important.

[KaraokeKarlton]

43. There are VALID claims of serious problems

People have WITNESSED those problems and have requested that they be checked out. Some individuals here seem to totally disregard eyewitness accounts. The vote counts aren't valid if the claims made by these people are true. If they are not investigated then the Democratic party is no better than the Supreme Court who didn't let Florida have a fair election in 2000. Also, those disregarding the claims of these witnesses are no different than those who denied that anything went awry in Florida.

[boxster]

45. Fine. If there is all this evidence, it should be easy to prove.

I suggest you contact the proper authorities.

Again, you are extrapolating an entire state's results based on what? 1% of the people involved? Less? According to you, Dean should apparently be winning in a landslide, though the ACTUAL NUMBERS state otherwise. You want us to accept your second-hand anecdotal evidence as proof of some massive fraud.

Don't expect us to jump on the Dean's-getting-screwed bandwagon based solely on your second-hand anecdotal evidence. I have no doubt that you believe what you are claiming, but Dean's likely going to lose by 20% or more. That's a pretty big stretch for any conspiracy theory to explain.

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. You mean just like it worked in Florida?

n/t

[eileen_d]

58. You're not helping your argument by completely changing the subject.

If you'd like to demand a recountin your state, demand a recount (or an investigation). But since you're already pointing fingers, why bother with such technicalities...

[shance]

72. LOL! You are assuming a recount would actually reveal honest results

Easy for you to say, isnt it?

If the shoe were on the other foot, you guys would be "crying in your teacups"

There were a number of situations where Kerry supporters seemed a bit overzealous in their counting. And a bit intimidating and bullying.

Who knows if the truth will ever be shown?

[eileen_d]

76. Well then, what do you suggest?

If you assume that an honest count cannot be done, then why bother voting? Aren't you assuming defeat before you ever begin?

Voter irregularities, particularly those affecting people of color (ex. Michigan) should be investigated. If you're not willing to take action and investigate, because you think the fix is already in, I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

And I would say no matter which candidate was losing - although if Kerry were losing, I wouldn't be running around screaming "voter fraud" at the slightest sign of impropriety. Face it, the reason some people are up in arms is because Kerry is winning and they don't like it.

[shance]

82. Paper ballots, no caucuses which are easy to manipulate, and no

electorate.

Let EACH AND EVERY VOTE COUNT.

[eileen_d]

84. No electorate?

electorate: a body of qualified voters

I assume you meant something else.

[boxster]

113. Hey, sounds like a dictatorship! No electorate!

My guess is that he/she meant "electoral college".

Just a guess, though.

[KaraokeKarlton]

108. My state hasn't voted yet

And I'm quite confident there won't be any nonsense happening in Vermont.

[boxster]

102. Gore didn't lose Florida by 20%. And you have yet to provide one...

shred of proof of your conspiracy theory.

The bottom line is that that's all it is - a theory. You're so desperate to explain why Dean is doing so poorly that you're seeing conspiracies everywhere. You have a minuscule fraction of the total information and are extrapolating it to indicate state-wide results.

Good luck in your hunt to find 20% more votes for your candidate in Maine through voter fraud and discrepancies.

[KaraokeKarlton]

110. Only half of Maine's results have been reported

I know the race was very, very tight in most places where people have posted the results from their caucuses. Why are half the votes still not reported? What about Washington? There are still 60 precincts not reported there too. Why?

[boxster]

114. "where people have posted the results from their caucuses"

Which you are then extrapolating to state-wide results. Doesn't work that way.

[Democrats unite]

14. Ignoring me won't make my question go away.

Or is this some master plan to counter something that isn't there? I have to admit, I have no idea what you are talking about!

[joshcryer]

15. What are you talking about?!? How is vote counting offensive?

No one, that I have seen, claims that Kerry is winning because of "voter fraud." But that some people are getting disenfranchized.

[Bonobo]

16. The charges are automatically without merit because its YOUR guy, huh.

[Zan_of_Texas]

42. we don't know who wins elections in the U.S.

Go be offended by something really offensive, like the fact that 3000 people die of hunger in the US every year. That is something to be truly pissed off about. We're spending $400 or $500 billion to beat up people in the Middle East, but we can't feed people who live here, and who are dying at the rate of one Sept. 11 attack EACH YEAR.

As for elections, read two things and then come back and whine.

1. http://makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/040201_TheScream.htm
The Scream
2/1/04
By David Podvin
On December 1, 2003, Howard Dean was ahead by twenty points in the polls when he appeared on Hardball with Chris Matthews and said, “We're going to break up the giant media enterprises.” This pronouncement went far beyond the governor’s previous public musings about possibly re-regulating the communications industry, and amounted to a declaration of war on the corporations that administer the flow of information in the United States.
It was an extraordinarily noble and dangerous thing to do: when he advocated a truly free press, Dr. Dean was provoking the corrupt media conglomerates that control what most Americans see and hear and read, and thereby control what most Americans think.
The media giants quickly responded <more>

2. Diebold is one of the four largest voting machine companies in the U.S. They make not only the new electronic paperless machines, but also optical scanners. A big portion of votes in the US are cast on either electronic machines or optical scanners. Diebold scanners were in use in NH, for instance. The scanners use computers to count. Computers do what they're told by programmers. The margin of victory, Kerry over Dean, in Iowa and NH was roughly 25,000 voters in each state. In NH, Dean AND Kerry got more actual votes than George W. Bush got in his Republican primary there. Yet Dean was dubbed "not electable."

Read the latest study of Diebold equipment by RABA:

Security Poor in Electronic Voting Machines, Study Warns

By JOHN SCHWARTZ
NEW YORK TIMES
January 29, 2004
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/29/technology/29CND-SECU.html

Slightly different and shorter version dated Jan. 30: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0130-03.htm

Electronic voting machines made by Diebold Inc. that are widely used in several states have such poor computer security and physical security that an election could be disrupted or even stolen by corrupt insiders or determined outsiders, according to a new report presented today to Maryland state legislators. Authors of the report - the first hands-on attempt to hack Diebold voting machine systems under conditions found during an election - were careful to say that the machines, if not hacked, count votes correctly, and that issues discovered in the "red team" exercise could be addressed in a preliminary way in time for the state's primaries in March. <yeah, and a bank that leaves its cash in the middle of the street, if not robbed, will have the exactly correct amount of cash at the end of the day too.>

<snip>

William A. Arbaugh, an assistant professor of computer science at the University of Maryland and a member of the Red Team exercise, said, "I can say with confidence that nobody looked at the system with an eye to security who understands security." In the security exercise, members of the attack team said they were surprised to find that the touch-screen machines used by voters all used the same physical key to the two locks that protect their innards from tampering. With hand-held computers and a little sleight of hand, they found, the touch screens could be reprogrammed to make a vote for one candidate count for an opponent, or results could be fouled so that a precinct's tally could not be used.

In addition, they said, communications between the terminals and the larger server computers that tally results from many precincts do not require that machines on either end of the line prove that they are legitimate, an omission that could allow someone to grab information that could be used to falsify whole precincts worth of votes.

<snip>

There is much more to be done, Mr. Arbaugh said. Working on the exercise for just a week to prepare for the one-day attack, he said, "we got the tip of the iceberg." He added, "It seemed everywhere we scratched, there was something that's pretty troubling."

<snip>

[madfloridian]

18. Ask those voters in MI who did not get to vote.

Their precincts were closed, or moved. I doubt their appeal will even be heard, though they are trying. I don't know who they would have voted for, but it does not matter.
They did not get to vote.
That is what matters.

I thought we were never going to forget Florida in 2000. We have,though. Completely, utterly. We are perfectly content to let the media call our elections for us and never look back.

[corporatewhore]

26. oddly enough it happened in an african american community again

[Mairead]

37. Amazing, the way that works.

But there's nothing to see here, so let's all move along.

[revcarol]

19. I noted disturbing irregularities in the Washington race.

As percentages of voters reporters increased, the total number of votes for certain candidates DECREASED.

I find it disturbing that you would not want to investigate these "irregularities" and just assume that we are out to diss Kerry.

You know what happens when you ASSume.

[bornskeptic]

85. The numbers reported have no effect on anything.

The delegates were selected in precinct caucuses. Our caucus selected one Dean delegate and one Edwards delegate. If the media reported them as two Kerry delegates it wouldn't have meant a thing. They still would go to the county convention and would still be one Dean delegate and one Edwards delegate. If you want to spread conspiracy theories, you should at least learn how the process works first.

[Nicholas_J]

20. Yup

When simple answers dont suffice for people who are pissed off have to go looking for conspiracies. If Dena had stayed in the lead, no one would be be making these accusations.

[Mairead]

33. That's not true, Nick, it'd be a different group making them.

We're not talking about a natural process whose principles are regular and predictable. We're talking about something that's being manipulated by people who deny they're doing it and who call those who complain 'delusional'.

[Jim Sagle]

21. Truth hurts, huh?

[Hoppin_Mad]

23. Not if they're true - Here is one first-hand account from WA

"Here is what happened in my precinct. We won 4 delegates for DEAN because none of the other candidates were viable. In our precinct Dean had over 71% of the votes...

BUT

When I went to the 36th district HQ's to find out what the caucus numbers were for the whole district and I looked on the computer that AMY HAGPOLAIN was entering data on - I discovered she had completely reallocated the delegate allocation for my precinct! She had entered only 1 DELEGATE FOR DEAN (instead of 4) and gave 1 delegate to Clark (note - we did not have a single Clark supporter at our precinct caucus), 1 to Edwards, and 1 to Kerry in my precinct - The precinct that went 71.1% for DEAN with no other candidate being viable or receiving a delegate. That single error affected Dean's delegate count by 1% at the Congressional District level. Looking further into the available paperwork, I found another error in another precinct that was next to mine at the caucus. Of the twelve precincts I had time to look at, I found two errors that gave delegates to Kerry that were not his. I also noticed that the head count in our district said we had 13 people signed in, when it was actually 21!!! That effects the percentage for viability and the delegate allocation!

This woman (AMY) got unbelievably angry (defensive) with me as soon as I pointed out the mistake. She immediately started berating me and started a big argument. We had quite an unpleasant shouting match. Then, she and another 36th District Official named PETE started a viscious passive aggressive game, blaming me for keeping them there to late, calling me a jack-ass, on and on and on. Eventually, they won the battle with the District Chair to stop the recount that we had in progress. I made them all stay as long as I could and we started recounting precincts to make sure that the sign-in (head count) numbers were accurate. We found that the majority of the precinct head counts (from the sign-in sheets) were under counted by one or two people and in some cases by as much as 5 to 10 people!!! A couple of the precincts were over counted.

Then PETE (last name unknown) told the Chair that no copies of the minutes needed to be made and he would keep them at his house. He started loading the Caucus Minutes into his car to take to his house and AMY was taking out tons of paperwork (I don't know what, exactly) while we were discussing when to start the recount again... the few people on my side who were trying to get the re-count done gave up as Pete and Amy talked the Chair into counting tomorrow and then she let them take all the minutes and delegates papers out the door... UNBELIEVABLE… I could not have made this up if I had tried my best! Truth IS stranger than fiction.

THE DEMOCRATS ARE F&^%ED in this District and, quite possibly, this state! I was treated so horribly for finding that first mistake and only wanted to look for more problems. Based on my intial findings this woman named AMY was either (1) inept or lazy and didn't care that she entered the data wrong or (2) she was stealing delegates from DEAN. Either way, it was wrong. When she was asked to correct her error and to look for others - she lost it and BLEW UP! She and her cohort Pete had absolutely no interest in accuracy... they kept repeating to me - "The election is over... Kerry won". They weren't accountable to anyone! This is not about who won - at least not now, anyway. This is about all of the votes at the caucus getting accurately counted so that the delegate allocation is correct. People like AMY and PETE need to be banned from doing this kind political work. I felt like I was a REPUBLICAN 'hanging chad' Party in Florida - or at least what I imagined it to have been like..."

[oxymoron]

32. More anecdotes.

<sigh> Let me guess, you pulled this off the Dean site? I still have not seen any real evidence. BTW, I am not a Kerry supporter, but I find this kind of stuff extremely counterproductive. It is my understanding that WA is doing a recount anyway.

[corporatewhore]

25. so the voters who were disenfranchised should stop crying intheir tea cups

ehsounds familiar

[madfloridian]

81. Let's see, Kerry said that,, right?

Sounds familiar.

[Mairead]

28. No, because they're really a reflection of general discomfort

People can see that there's real bias in the system --the suppression of Dennis Kucinich is exemplary-- but the existence of the bias is being steadfastly denied by the perps and the people who see it are being called delusional. That's guaranteed to produce either withdrawal or twitchy suspiciousness on the part of the victims; there's no other way to deal with it short of running amok.

[The Magistrate]

29. More Humorous Than Offensive, Sir

People will go to great lengths to preserve their desires when these receive rough handling from reality. Explainations that do not require admission of error, or reassessment of views, are preferred by some.

"Compared to chaotic indifference, unsleeping malice wears a friendly face."

[AnnitaR]

30. Actually find it as one of the least offensive things

about this primary.

Most everything else stinks to high heaven!

What went on in Washington & Michigan must be investigated no matter who the winner was!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. It's just newcomers to politics.

I just figure that a lot of people have never been involved in a losing campaign before.


As a liberal in Montana, I have been involved in plenty, lol. It gets easier to deal with...

[Hoppin_Mad]

46. I've supported many a 'losing campaign' going as far back as McGovern

But I'm not accusing John Kerry personally. Actually, I'm not accusing anybody yet, but there are some irregularities that need to be looked into. Hopefully, for John Kerry, they'll turn out to be nothing.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. OK, you're not a newcomer.

What are the irregularities in voting in WA? Do you have any evidence of any such other than anecdotal reports from the Dean blog? It just is not a credible source.

[bornskeptic]

90. What does "Hopefully for John Kerry" mean?

The Washington accusations are clearly bogus, since they don't jibe with the way the caucus system operates. The Michigan accusations are apparently about black voters being disenfranchised. If you look at the exit polls for Oklahoma, Missouri, and South Carolina, the only states with substantial black populations for which exit polls are available, you'll see that only two candidates appear to do better among blacks than among whites. One, of course, is Al Sharpton. The other is John Kerry. If you want to be conspiratorial about it, the obvious people to point at would be those who run worst among African-Americans, namely John Edwards and Howard Dean.

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/OK/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/MO/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/SC/index.html

[HazMat]

44. It's to be expected from certain types of people,

especially those who frequent sites such as these. Everything is an elaborate conspiracy.

I wouldn't take them too seriously -- nobody in the real world does.

[Zan_of_Texas]

48. 1600 technology experts,

including some of the nation's most respected scientists, have signed a document stating that voting should have a paper ballot because the electronic-only ballot is too difficult to secure. Voter verified paper trail, it's called.

www.verifiedvoting.org

Would that be in the real world?

[oxymoron]

54. I didn't realize this conversation was about BBV.

A completely different subject IMO.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

51. It's offensive when...............

Anyone who actually remembers the huge underhanded shenanigans that went on in Florida in 2000 gets a little uppity about irregularities in yet another election process gets accused of being a sore looser or a new comer on a loosing campaign or unimformed or whatever snide remark can be thrown out. No matter who supports who this SHOULD be a genuine concern to EVERYONE. If not then you may as well hang it up and not care if another presidential election gets stolen.

[oxymoron]

56. When I see some actual evidence of a problem...

I will be happy to show some genuine concern.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

57. It's called research

It takes a little effort.

[oxymoron]

66. LOL

I guess you can't back up your argument. I thought not.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

74. That's what I thought

If you desire to argue outweighs the work required to gain knowledge then it would be pointless wouldn't it.

[oxymoron]

75. Sorry buddy, I do my research.

I'm still waiting for your evidence. Do you have any hard evidence at all? No? Maybe that's why you have to imply that other people don't do their homework. Nice try and have a great evening.

[Tinoire]

95. Start here- Articles about Black Voter Disenfranchisement in Detroit:

You can start showing some genuine concern right here:


Detroit caucus sites stay open extra two hours; black leaders call for new election

By KATHY BARKS HOFFMAN
The Associated Press
2/7/04 6:11 PM


LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- The leaders of four black statewide groups may challenge the results of Saturday's Democratic caucuses because some caucus sites weren't open or had been moved, Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus Chairman Derek Albert said.

"We feel very strongly that African-Americans were disenfranchised today. ... You had people running from site to site looking for where they could vote. ... We're calling for a new election," he told the Associated Press.

<details snipped>

"This is worse than in the '60s," said Albert, who also is chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party Black Caucus. "This is horrible. This election needs to be stopped. Because this is not right."

<snip>

Dean state director Daren Berringer had said changing polling places at the last minute hurt voters, especially in low-income areas such as Detroit where people might not have arranged transportation to get to a caucus site outside their neighborhood.

"They're walking to their polling place, and they're finding their caucus site has been changed," Berringer said. "The sites in Detroit and Southfield are in minority areas. This is direct voter disenfranchisement."

<snip>

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1076181242303271.xml

===

Black leaders angered by changed caucus sites

By KATHY BARKS HOFFMAN
The Associated Press
2/7/2004, 11:09 p.m. ET


<snip>

"We just went through this in Florida in 2000. Michigan should be above this. The Democratic Party should be above this. We're not going to tolerate this."


<snip>

Democratic caucus sites in the city of Detroit were to stay open an extra two hours Saturday, until 6 p.m. EST, to make up for the inconvenience of sites being changed. During the extended hours Saturday, residents could vote at any caucus site in Detroit rather than just the one they previously had been assigned.

But a check of several Detroit sites found them closed after 4 p.m.

<snip>

Howard Dean state director Daren Berringer had said changing polling places at the last minute hurt voters, especially in low-income areas such as Detroit where people might not have arranged transportation to get to a caucus site outside their neighborhood.

<snip>

Lorenzo Morgan said that he and his wife called the Democratic party's toll-free number and were told to vote at one caucus site, only to find it closed. The couple had to drive around to try to find their right caucus site.

"They're afraid even to tell us where to vote," said Morgan, 66, as he came into a caucus site at Bethany Baptist Church in Detroit to vote for candidate Al Sharpton.

<snip>

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/politics-0/1076202545100572.xml




Tons more where that came from.

[Hoppin_Mad]

55. As is election tampering - Like Kerry's brother Cameron 1972

To win the primary, the newcomer overcame the election eve arrest of his brother, Cameron, and campaign field director Thomas J. Vallely, both then 22, in the basement of a Lowell building that housed the headquarters of Kerry and another Democratic contender, state Representative Anthony R. DiFruscia of Lawrence. It was almost 2 a.m. - 30 hours before the polls opened - when the two were arrested on charges of breaking and entering with intent to commit larceny.

That day's Sun blared a memorable, double-deck headline: "Kerry brother arrested in Lowell `Watergate."' DiFruscia, getting some extra ink in the campaign's waning hours, had drawn the parallel to the break-in at Democratic headquarters in Washington three months earlier.

[Zinnola]

59. Wow.. you Kerry supporters are really really winning over Dean

supporters! (sarcasm on big time.)

[oxymoron]

63. I'm not a Kerry supporter.

And wtf does that have to do with this conversation?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. It's the voters who count.

[shance]

83. Are we not voters?

n/t

[eileen_d]

67. Edited.

As my mother would say, inappropriate

[Zinnola]

71. Please do not assume I think Kerry is evil

I just do not think he is as formidable as his supporters prop him to be.

I have been looking at the wingnuts take on Kerry and if they go after Kerry after they went after Clinton, things are going to get uglier than pus on a boil

[eileen_d]

78. No, I don't think that about you

My post was inappropriately directed at you, and I apologize. I'm going to edit it if I still have time.

Unlike some Kerry supporters, I don't think Kerry is going to be completely immune against GOP attacks, but I think he's strong enough to survive.

[hedgetrimmer]

77. Question the general, Question the primary....

Frist got a peek at Democrat's papers... who knows... it is still Diebold .... if you are offended be offended with our government... which ever identity you choose...

happy solstice.

[eyeswideopened]

79. NO, NO and NO

[MaineDem]

91. Maybe not offensive but a tad annoying

Real voter fraud is something we have to fight against. What I've been reading here is just speculation at best and "sour grapes" at worse.

I find it amusing that one candidate was the presumed favorite until people actually started voting. Now that another candidate is winning, some people can't accept the mandate of the voters. I find it an interesting study on how people think.

In my town yesterday, the 12 people in attendance all voted for John Kerry. The two absentee ballots, cast weeks ago, went to Dean. I also find that interesting.

I've been through many many primary fights. This one will get sorted out.

[ScreamingMeemie]

92. I do have a problem with what happened in Detroit. It has nothing to

do with Kerry or Dean. A comment has been made that the caucus changes were made 24 hours before the caucuses opened and that is just not true. We knew of mistakes in the caucus list a month ago at a Macomb County Democrats meeting. That is wrong...no matter who won. I believe the caucus in Michigan was fixed so as to keep the voice of Detroit silent. I'm really sorry, but I know what I heard a month ago.

[Tinoire]

96. What did you hear one month ago? This is not ringing a bell

and in view of what happened in Detroit, could be important for the rest of us to know.

Thanks

[ScreamingMeemie]

97. I worked on phone banking to get the vote out for the caucuses. While

we were phone banking it became apparent that the caucus sites were wrong. Really wrong. Phone calls were made and all were assured that the problem was corrected. It was, in some places. It is now obvious that all of the corrections were not made. I am really angry about this. We did a lot of work and it doesn't show in the voter turn out for Detroit.

[Tinoire]

99. That really angers me! I saw several posts and articles to that effect

I wish I had book-marked them. This is not right and is making me very angry at the DNC. What can it possibly have as a higher priority than to ensure that the sites are correct so that people can get to the voting sites and their votes counted?

This morning I've started book-marking posts/threads/articles for future reference.

Thanks

[NashVegas]

93. You *Should* Be Offended

We've already seen ABC's "The Note" detailing how the news organizations are under tremendous pressure to wrap it up for one candidate when less than 20% of the electorate has had its say.

And if even 1/4 of the incidents where what first hand accounts claim doesn't jive with the official tallies are true, again, you *should* be offended about the scam behind our so-called democracy.

[seaglass]

98. Since it appears that the scurrilous innuendo of fraud in NH

has been ably refuted - yeah it pisses me off.

There were a number of people who used a livejournal blog to insinuate that Kerry did not beat Dean fairly in NH. None of the people who supported this accusation either built a case or knew much about NH.

I am starting to feel numbed by many of these baseless accusations.

We did learn in 2000 that our election processes are not as perfect as we had hoped. I do have concern when caucus/primary locations are changed and people are not aware of them. I don't automatically assume it is intentional.

"When you examine a statistical analysis of the New Hampshire Primary, please make sure it controls for location and other key variables. The towns that use voting machines tend to be the large ones that are close to Boston and the Massachusetts media market. As one might expect, the hand counted towns tend to be smaller, farther away from Boston and nearer to Vermont. The Connecticut Valley (on the Vermont-New Hampshire border) media and Boston media would have covered John Kerry and Howard Dean quite differently in recent years. Perhaps as a result, all three counties on the Vermont border and south of the White Mountains actually voted for Dean over Kerry in the Presidential Primary, even though Kerry won the state by a fairly large margin.

Any voting machine software is potentially subject to tampering. We believe our machines are less subject to tampering partly because those involved in the process know they would have the greatest chance of getting caught in our state. Due to our laws and traditions, New Hampshire has more recounts than any other state. Our Secretary of State, William Gardner, has recounted over 300 races, including some statewide races, in his term of office. In 2000, our office recounted 32 races involving 137 candidates. In 2002, we recounted 13 races involving 83 candidates. It is not unusual to recount one quarter of the ballots in the state in one election year. We have recounted entire Presidential Primary races in the past. "

snip

"To further reduce the likelihood of tampering, the law requires that, prior to each election, all towns conduct voting machine testing. The Secretary of State prints and marks a specified number of test ballots that have been filled out in a realistic manner using a wide variety of combinations. The test numbers generated by the towns are reported to the Secretary of State and checked for accuracy. "

Anthony Stevens
Assistant Secretary of State
New Hampshire
http://www.livejournal.com/users/explodedview/1389.html?page=1#comments

[republicansareevil]

100. BBV and other problems with voting have been a topic on DU for four years

And I would say the vast majority of DUers have concerns with the reliability and security of voting in the U.S.

I don't know whether voting problems changed the outcome of any of the primary races, but it's not as if this is a new charge being made just because someone's candidate didn't do as well as expected. I think the ones who are being inconsistent are the ones who are suddenly saying everything is fine just because it's their candidate who is in the lead.

I know I would lack confidence in the voting systems no matter which primary candidate was in the lead. Would those of you who are naysaying our concerns feel the same way if your own candidate was not doing so well? If your man is the nominee, and these same problems happen in November, will you still be defending the voting system? If not, it seems to me that you are the ones who are letting your own interests sway your principles.

[MaineDem]

103. BBV is not an issue in Maine's caucuses

I understand and share the concerns with electronic voting and the dangers in it.

But head-counting, as done at the caucuses, is hard to fudge.

[oxymoron]

104. Agreed.

I also am concerned about BBV. But I think we lose all credibility on the issue by crying wolf when we have no real evidence.

[republicansareevil]

106. I didn't say "Maine"

And I did say BBV "and other voting problems." For example, voter disenfranchisement is a problem that has nothing to do with BBV. The point it that many DUers have had these concerns for years and didn't just create a theory to account for some candidate doing poorly.

[On the Road]

115. You Need to Have Grounds of Suspicion First

before going off and making accusations.

After the optical-manual controversy in NH, I looked at the precinct numbers in some detail and didn't see anything remotely suspicious in them. That accusation should never have been made, and Kerry supporters are rightfully offended by accusations of fraud.

On the WA caucuses, I want to hear more. Something funny happened with the results as they were being reported, and some anecdotal evidence is at variance with the official results. Don't know if there's anything there, but a recount is a very good idea.

[On the Road]

116. Wow -- I Killed a 115-Post Thread!

I think that's a personal record.