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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:38 PM
Original message
What does "New American Patriotism" mean?
I just noticed that is the slogan for the Clark campaign.. How is it different than just being patriotic?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. It means "Vote for Wes".
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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. vs
"You have the Power" which means vote for Dean? :-)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. In Clark's own words:
"As I travel across this country, I see a new spirit of patriotism in the American people. I see it in the Americans who speak their minds, demand more of their leaders, and serve their country.

This patriotism recognizes that democracy demands discussion, disagreement, and dissent. There is a nothing more American - nothing more patriotic -- than speaking out, questioning authority, and holding your leaders accountable.

This patriotism is born of a love of country, and renewed through service - service in the armed forces and service in our communities; volunteer service and paid service; full-time service and part-time service.

This New American Patriotism recognizes that it's not enough to say you're an American; you have to live it - with action, deed and commitment.

It recognizes that we as Americans owe our strength to certain values and principles - liberty, equality, and the freedom to debate - and it calls on our willingness to sacrifice for those principles."

http://clark04.com/speeches/005/

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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I disagree strongly with his statement...
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 02:54 PM by OrAnarch
I wish it was true....but fascism is rapant accross our country right now. People think liberals are treasonous. Tom Delay right wing tactics are taking over the law and the media.


The only New American Patriotism I see is Bush trying to get kids to fight for Halliburton.


I really wish a candidate would address those points. That is something I am concerned with.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. You've got the wrong end
of the stick - Clark is reclaiming patriotism and giving it its correct meaning, although he would probably be better off calling
it "Real American Patriotism" as opposed to the phoney type that the rightwing espouse.
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Reclaiming it by saying he sees something that isn't there?
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 03:08 PM by OrAnarch
Reclaim it be redefining it, but not by saying what America currently is is a new form of patriotism. The atmosphere in America is fascism.

"As I travel across this country, I see a new spirit of patriotism in the American people."

Utter BS...that is not the case.


You must reach out and bring people left by teaching them, and not pander and step to the right to conform to their viewpoints. Then, you have won nothing.


I see this as saying that how America currently is is OK, and aligning oneself and praising the atmosphere. I do not like that. Read his statement. There is no way you can agree it is accurate of "America". For the Moore/Clark fans, Dude, Where's my country?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. It's a Winning Message (n/t)
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Read the statement!
It is like a man claiming pre-Nazi Germany was filled with people that have all kinds of new patriotism. It is a statement that is false, and from Bush, would be called propaganda from every one of you!


Id love if his statment was true. But it is an outright lie that this is the climate of American culture. There is despise and polarization, with the right fascistly spoutign off their viewpoint. Lets have a candidate address that.
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. I Suspect
it is an attempt to redefine "patriotism" in a way that means you don't have to suck up to Bush and his cronies to be a "patriot"...that, in fact, showing and expressing dissent is one of the most patriotic actions you can take, if you feel your government is moving in the wrong direction. I think that, if this is what "New American Patriotism" means, then it's brilliant!

We need to fight the demagogue that only conservative Repugs are patriotic...and that only conservative Repugs are "Christian." We need to take God and country back from those who have usurped these to serve their own political agenda.
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. We shall see how he plays it then...
If so, that is in fact a good move. But honestly, I would do anything but praise the current political atmosphere. Ill be curious to follow this.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Deleted message
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Dissent is not patriotic?
So if you disagree with the actions of the nation you love, you should remain silent? I think not! I also think that General Clark would disagree with you heartily.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Deleted message
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Blind?
I never said blind dissent, now did I?
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. You're going to love this country even if it turns into a fascist state?
THAT'S when I have to draw the line...
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babzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Thomas Jefferson disagrees
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" --TJ
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Emperors New Flight Suit
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 03:49 PM by Tom Rinaldo
This is something I posted here before, so I apologize if is a repeat to some of you. I was inspired to write this based on listening to Wesley talk about his concept of a New American Patriotism, so I think it fits into this thread:

"The Emperors New Flight Suit

I had been looking for a Democratic candidate who would finally be able to reframe the dynamics of all of the public debates that the Republicans have managed to ever so finely script in their favor over the years since Reagan came to power. The Republicans have in essence taken out patent pending notices on most of the key American buzz words, and images, in our idealized collective consciousness, much as corporations have in recent year laid legal claim on every day expressions (like "Fair and Balanced"!) Suddenly Republicans seemed to "own" them, and the rest of us were only "Renters".

Either Democrats had to find a narrow and shrill vocabulary from the fringes of public discourse to lay claim to for their own, or they had to "borrow" Republican identified terminology. Republicans had seized the middle ground, the high ground always sought after in military campaigns, the strategic vantage point over America's identity. You know, I still remember how it felt when I lost my share of ownership in the American Flag during the protests against the Viet Nam War. It wasn't immediate, but the more those I opposed clung to it, the less I could relate to that flag, and before I realized it I had for all practical purposes surrendered it. I have felt awkward and conflicted around our flag ever since then, and somewhat distrustful of those who didn't feel as conflicted as I do.

Decency, values, patriotism, valor, strength, faith, families, all of these terms and concepts increasingly have taken on a Republican slant. Even the colors, Red, White, and Blue used in proximity to each other. One can almost see the copyright symbol next to each word; "Used with the expressed consent of the Republican National Committee". Democrats using those terms and symbols inevitably sounded "Republican Light". Sometimes of course they were, but other times they just looked like poor gringos trying to speak Spanish and butchering the language, how embarrassing.


Periodically I would half heartedly protest to my radical friends that this country has much to be ashamed of true, but much to be proud of also. I would cite our revolutionary history, I would point out our multi cultural traditions, and more than likely I would be reminded in turn of the betrayals of our Revolutionary traditions, and the failings of our multi cultural society. While all the while the Republicans banished all doubt: This is the greatest country on Earth. Love it or leave it.

Bill Clinton was a brilliant man, and a brilliant politician, with a warm outgoing personality. But I think he won because, yes the economy sucked at the time and that always helps the insurgents, but mostly because the Republicans let down their guard with Bush I. They were cocky after Dessert Storm. They indulged themselves in intra mural blood baths, and weren't pounding all the scripted notes in unison. They learned a lot from that loss and they went out and recruited the best front man money could buy them in Bush the Junior, the designated "compassionate conservative". Today's Republican Party (the predominate machine, leaving out a few decent mavericks from this overall characterization) have roots in 1984 the year, and 1984 the book. They have perfected New Speak. War is Peace. Division is Unity. Greed is Charity.

How can we win the public debate when the very language that must be used has been thoroughly rigged against us? I ultimately came to believe we might still win with Wes Clark. He is a Republican's worse nightmare, the genuine item, the embodiment of their own rhetoric, and suddenly the King is shown to be a pretender. It is the story of the Emperors new flight suit.

All I needed to be convinced to back Wes Clark this year was a close look at him as a man, is he sincere or is he a sham, that's what I wanted to know. I admit it, specific policies were less important to me for this election than in any other I can remember. Yeah I still care about policies, I have some bottom line litmus test issues, and Clark passes easily. I've studied Clark, I've looked at his career. I've met Clark, and I personally like and respect Clark. But what it keeps coming back to for me, the image that keeps coming up is this. When Bush and Clark finally stand across from each other in those Debates prior to the 2004 election, the Emperor will be naked for the world to see."

By the way since I first wrote this in I think mid Novermber, I have been following Clark closely and increasingly I have been elated by the generally progressive content of his policy positions and initiatives. He increasingly has become my preferred candidate on issuecontent, not just on leadership presentation.

Edited to fix formating
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. "Republican's worst nightmare"??
Comments made in May 2001 surfaced, showing Clark heaping praise on Bush and his team: 'I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our President George W Bush. We need them there,' he told an Arkansas Republican dinner.

And this was before 9/11, before it was practically mandatory to suck up to the fascists.

That caused dismay among many supporters. 'People know that if Clark wins the Democrat nomination, those quotes are just a Republican attack ad waiting to happen,' Zogby said.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1091321,00.html

Oh don't we know it!

Sept. 29 issue - After Al Qaeda attacked America, retired Gen. Wes Clark thought the Bush administration would invite him to join its team. After all, he’d been NATO commander, he knew how to build military coalitions and the investment firm he now worked for had strong Bush ties. But when GOP friends inquired, they were told: forget it.

WORD WAS THAT Karl Rove, the president’s political mastermind, had blocked the idea. Clark was furious. Last January, at a conference in Switzerland, he happened to chat with two prominent Republicans, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and Marc Holtzman, now president of the University of Denver. “I would have been a Republican,” Clark told them, “if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.” Soon thereafter, in fact, Clark quit his day job and began seriously planning to enter the presidential race-as a Democrat. Messaging NEWSWEEK by BlackBerry, Clark late last week insisted the remark was a “humorous tweak.” The two others said it was anything but. “He went into detail about his grievances,” Holtzman said. “Clark wasn’t joking. We were really shocked.”


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3087185/

Julie




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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I don't want to participate in rerouting a thread once again
So I will not give you a full reply here, though this has been discussed often on DU. I am sure you would also be sickened by all of the praise given to Bush's foreign policy team by leading Democrats at the time who were very generous in the bipartisan spirit that is traditional for a new President's "honeymoon period". Things only got rough when it came to Ashcroft. The rest sailed through their Senate Confirmation hearings with lots of nice things being said about them. Dean not long ago praised George Bush the elder for the way he conducted his foreign policy by the way, it was obviously meant as a slap at Junior, but it stands as said.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I had no intention of re-routing
I simply had to address that aassertion that Clark was the "Republican's worst nightmare". I disagree strongly with that opinion and provided a small slice of why that is.

Julie
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. OK, I'll accept that. n/t
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. A well written piece, Tom
but your final conclusion IS to be ultimately convinced of the model as the only winning formula. Why should we want that model, and all it represents, if only to entertain the fantasy of beating the Republicans at their own game? Especially, especially... when all the liabilities of that same model are a potential risk to the Democratic party as well as a reputation that can be sucessfully smeared by the Right.

One can have love of country and be faithful to it's ideals (if not the realities)it represents without tolerating a government who violates those ideals.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Thanks CW. I'm not sure I see our disagreement though.
In my personal business I deal some with literal artifacts from the American Revolutionary period, so I often have reason to think about the roots of this country. I also have done a lot of Native American policitcal support work, so I am in no way blind to the betrayals of our own ideals in our nations history.

I don't think either I, nor Clark, believe that anyone should tolerate a government that violates those ideals. I honestly believe that Clark regards our constitutionally guaretneed personal rights as the essential core of what our nation is, and what he has personally sworn to protect. Sorry to come across wide eyed here, it is so much more in vogue to be cynical, but it's that kind of fundemental conclusion about what makes your candidate tick that inspires one to fight for that man or woman. Lord knows I realize that some people have a view of Clark around here that is diametrically opposed to mine, and I can agree to respectfully disagree with them so long as it the way that contrary position is argued doesn't get too ugly.

Elsewhere on DU I have written about the short crisis of conscience I went through when Clark said he could support an anti flag burning amendment. It's not like I an not looking at him as a real person who can hold some views that I simply disagree with. I looked closely at it, I listened to him talk about it at a dinner I saw him speak at, and I came to appreciate where he was coming from and why it wasn't the contradiction to him that it is to me. We still disagree on that one, and I still respect Clark's sincerity.

And I fully agree that one can love this country and back Dean for President.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. My Quick Take: "The Anti-Bush kind of Patriotism"...more
I believe the main thrust for this is when Clark talks about political discussion and debate is what America was built on, and we should not be silenced if we disagree with the Administrations war in Iraq, or we disagree with the Patriot Act.

Its our duty to speak out when we have concerns.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. Reasserting True Definition of Partiotism As Opposed To Jingoism
and Nationalism.

Seeing one's fellow citizens as an extended family worthy of our consideration and good intentions.

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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is how he explains it
"I am patriotic. I believe in this country. I served in uniform for 34 years, but patriotism’s more than the American flag, much as I want to honor the American flag. You have to protect what the country stands for.

"I fought in Vietnam for the rights of people to protest, and I don’t think the government has any business telling people, because they disagree with the policy on Iraq or the policy on anything else, that they’re unpatriotic. That’s not true, it’s not American to say that.

"And the other thing is that I think that you have to hold leaders accountable, and they know that better in New Hampshire than anywhere in the country. This is about town meeting democracy. When your leaders are elected, they should set out their objectives and they should be held accountable for meeting them. It’s that simple.

"That’s patriotic. What this administration tries to say is: If you raise these issues or criticize them, then you’re unpatriotic. That’s not true. You can’t be patriotic in a democracy if you don’t hold people accountable."


Source: The Hampton Union 12/26/03

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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
26. neo nationalism
I think I will pass on Clark's warped, twisted vision of the 5th Reich.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. My "interpretation"
of Wes Clark's slogan is......NOT the republican kind of "patriotism". Meaning, even if you're NOT with us, you're NOT against us. Even if you DON'T support the illegal war, you're STILL patriotic by dissenting. You CAN support the troops and NOT support the illegal war. Even if you're NOT republican, you can STILL fly the flag because the flag belongs to ALL Americans, not just republicans. The "New American Patriotism" brought to you by...General Clark. The republicans tried to lay claim to patriotism via the war, troops and the flag....Wes took it back. That's my interpretation, anyway. I've also noticed that the republicans don't use that patriotic crap much any more since Wes has taken the issue to them. JMCPO

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I concur and
I think I'll watch the smackdown video again. :)
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