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Human Torch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:56 PM
Original message
HOW does a 12000+ Dow Average put food on a working class table? HOW?
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 07:00 PM by Human Torch


Dow surges to record amid earnings optimism
Falling oil prices help push up stocks; blue-chip index gains 114 points

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3683270 /

Updated: 2 hours, 1 minute ago

NEW YORK - Wall Street extended its October rally Monday, as a decline in oil prices bolstered hopes for higher consumer spending and investors grew more confident about upcoming earnings reports. The Dow Jones industrial average surged nearly 1 percent to cross the 12,100 level just a few session after crashing through the 12,000 milestone for the first time.

Dow component Wal-Mart Stores Inc., which pleased investors by announcing plans to cut capital spending to improve profits, helped the blue chips to their new high.

Strength from International Business Machines Corp., Hasbro Inc. and Xerox Corp. also fed the advance. Just halfway through the third-quarter earnings season, companies generally upbeat reports have given investors a renewed sense of security about the future.

The blue chips have absolutely outperformed most markets, and this was an extension of that trend, said Steven Goldman, chief market strategist at Weeden & Co. I dont think things are overdone. Investors are looking ahead thinking an economic slowdown is forthcoming, and its safer to get into household names and not new companies.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. it doesn't..
it's just more porno for the investor class.
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Dick Diver Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. While your title is technically correct...
you probably want to change it to 12000+.
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Human Torch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. OOPS...fixed, and thanks...n/t
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. It doesn't.eom
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who is saying it does?
:shrug:
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. In a better world...
In a better world, we'd have a number called the Well-Being Index or something. I'd propose

cost of a week of food / average weekly pay

And there would be breathless news reports and screaming headlines whenever that number hit an all-time low.
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Efilroft Sul Donating Member (827 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
54. There is the Misery Index to consider.
http://www.miseryindex.us /

It stands at 8.52%. It calculates inflation rate (3.82%) + unemployment rate (4.7%).

But the Index is much lower than reality. First, the unemployment rate never calculates those who've gone off the books and are no longer looking for work. Second, McJobs are never calculated. Third, wage stagnation is not calculated. Factor in these three criteria and the real Misery Index increases exponentially.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's at 12K because WS knows the middle class is fucked. nt
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Tinkle Down
Don'tcha know. :eyes:
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MisoWeaver Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sure it does
Its part of the engine that drives the economy. We do live in a Market Economy.


If you don't believe me that think about how many people would lose their jobes of the Markets fell to half of their value tomorrow.

How many do you think?

With those people out of work, not speading money on un-necessiary things, how many others will be laid off as a result?

And so it goes... like dominoes.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. So the economy is driven
by what investors think of the economy?

That makes me think of the guy at Woodstock who yelled, "HEY, IF WE THINK REAL HARD, MAYBE WE CAN STOP THIS RAIN!"

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Welcome to DU
Enjoy your stay.

:popcorn:

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MisoWeaver Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Thanks You
I hope they don't boot me for trying to pass along market therory
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. If You Are Gonna Push Market Theory Learn How To Fucking Spell It
"I hope they don't boot me for trying to pass along market therory"

What a dumbASS!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. Guess what?
What happens on Wall Street has little to do with what happens on main street and anyone who claims to know jack shit about economics should know that.

Just one of many examples: Wall Street gets really really happy when interest rates are lowered, but they are only lowered in expectations of a weaker economy.

Put that in your "market theory" pipe and smoke it.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Ib et it i sdriven by that.
nad my dad was no hippy. more l ike a steelworker who lived a ta mill for 60-80 hour sa week.

It's amazing what kids believe nowadays. "Hard work and sacrifice will get you far in life." "A rising tide lifts all boats." "Offshoring jobs is good for the economy." "Everyone is born on the same ground and has the same opportunities."
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. You spell like a FReeper.
but welcome to DU anyway. :hi:

BTW, you won't get tombstoned for posting in favor of market economics. You likely will get tombstoned for making remarks about other posters "hippy fore-fathers" and other types of broad brushed and insulting statements.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. And nobody is going to invest in an economy in which there's no aggregate
demand stoked by a strong working and middle class.

So, you also need a society in which wealth accumulates in the hands of the working and middle class.

Debt slavery for the middle and working class might stoke consumption in the short term (which is what has been happengin from the early 90s to today) but everyone knows that the middle class can't load up their credit cards with useless consumption forever.

That's what the developing world was forced to do by the IMF for years, and it didn't work. It doesn't work for the American middle class either.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. So when do I get either a raise or have my bills & expenses lowered?
Next week? Next month? Six months? A year?

The question was not what would happen in a crash- the question was about how this puts more money in our wallets or bank accounts.

How does it?
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MisoWeaver Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. You'll get a raise when you deserve it
or when you get a better job, or start your own business.

The question is two sides fo the same coin. With the DOW at 12K I will be makeing more money, more then if it were at 6000k.

If there is more investment there is more expansion. I will be making more for exactly that reason. But then again I am not flipping burgers of sitting back whining and sucking on sour grapes.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. If the DOW was at 6000k rather than 12k
I pretty much think we'd all be drowning in money.

So, what kind of a job does someone with your obvious educational accomplishments do to make that kind of money? You wouldn't happen to be President of the United States would you? C'mon, you can tell us. :D
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Classic Republican logic
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 11:31 PM by WildEyedLiberal
"You get paid what you deserve! The market cures all ills! Shut up and stop whining unless you want a better job!"

You know what's hilarious, buddy? People who work at companies like Ford, GM, Caterpillar - you know, once the backbone of the middle class here in the good ole USA - are getting more and more screwed every day. Their health care gets cut, their pensions get cut, their wages have been stagnant for so long that they are making less now, accounting for inflation, than they were ten years ago. Money that they have paid into their retirement accounts all their working lives is now being stolen from them to cover rising company costs - meanwhile, the CEO still retires with a multimillion dollar severance package.

Tell me something, O font of wisdom, prophet of the free and beneficent market: are those poor blue collar slobs working less hard than they did ten years ago? Is the quality of their labor the reason their pensions and health care plans are being raided right and left? Is it because the big kahunas know they're not putting in 110% effort?

Or... is it because our corrupt and immoral pimping of laissez-faire race to the bottom "free market" neoliberalism continues to line the pockets of the wealthy and elite with unprecedented amounts of wealth at the expense of the poor working stiffs at Ford, GM, and Firestone?

Fuck the Dow - rising stock prices only benefit shareholders, who are invariably wealthy enough to play the game. Joe Schmo with his $11 dollar an hour paycheck doesn't have enough left over after rent, car payments, groceries, insurance, and other living expenses to speculate on Wall Street - so how the fuck is he benefiting? Yeah, his company may be making record profits - but HE'S not seeing one dime of it. Meanwhile, the company's CEO and Board of Directors and major stockholders are just toasting themselves to the point of drunkenness over the wonderful economy and their neverending flow of wealth, all while Joe Schmo struggles to pay the bills.

Wake the fuck up. Unless you're rich - and odds are you're not - they're fleecing you too.

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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. Wow Burgers Of "Sitting Back Whining And Sour Grapes"?
Is that the kind of shit you freepers eat?
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. If I were you, I'd invest in a remedial English class
Just a thought.
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Rebellious Republican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. Let me guess, you are an english teacher, in grammer school...
you make a living by entering and winning spelling bees! You write speechs for Bush for extra spending cash. Spell it somewhere else, we are not buying it here.

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Efilroft Sul Donating Member (827 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
55. Chico, you're really being arrogant.
Since Bush came to power, good-paying jobs have been shipped overseas (IT, accounting and not just manufacturing) and employers have clamped down on the wages of those who still have jobs. "You'll get a pay raise when you deserve it"?! What Dickens novel did you step out of? I know people who haven't seen an increase in six years, they've struggled to keep their company in business while the incompetent CEO makes millions and buys luxury items, and you're going to tell me they don't deserve a pay raise?

Up yours.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
60. My job performance is not issue- the issue is an improving economy.
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 12:22 PM by Dr Fate
And *my* economy is not improving- my pay is the same, my benefits are being cut, and my expenses are going up.

The economy is NOT good for voters who already work as hard as they can and who are not in a postition to move to another job or who do not have enough savings to start their own business.

Is this the Republican economic plan? Tell swingvoters to "get another job" "work harder" or "start your own business?"

Good luck with that one.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. Actually, while you are correct to a certain point, the way the overall
Market has been behaving is not a good sign for our economy.

First off, remember that the Dow is merely a snapshot of how the thirty top blue chip stocks are doing. It doesn't provide any kind of broad based picture of the overall market. For that you need the Russel 3000, the S&P 500, etc. Looking at those, things aren't so damn rosy. All are still way down from their glory days in the late ninties, not a good sign at all. If fact, given the combination of the two factors, an inflated Dow and fairly flat in the other markets indicate that actually the investor class is looking to put its money into so called "safe" investments, hence they're pumping up the Dow.

Now remember that the Dow is a leading indicator, therefore if investors are fleeing other markets for the Dow, this could be quite indicative of a bumpy ride ahead. Not suprising, considering that the housing market is starting to seriously collapse. As far as other numbers go, inflation, unemployment rate, etc. etc., we really don't know what's going on with them. These numbers have been fairly suspect for over twenty five years as various politicians put them out there for their political good, then quietly revise them, or even let the lie stand. For example, Reagan wanted to drop the unemployment number prior to the '84 election, thus he changed the definition of employment to include military personel. This is only the most obvious of manipulations. If you're paying close attention you'll see that this current administration is performing Enron accounting techniques to all such economic numbers. Some experts peg the unemployment rate close to ten percent than five.

Another factor that you've got to consider is that that Dow isn't a level, free playing field, hasn't been for twenty years. Back after the huge Dow drop in '87, Reagan installed the Plunge Protection Team, a high flying group of well heeled investors whose duty it is to save the market when it starts to drop. However many leading economists suspect that the motivations of this team are more political than altruistic, and have seen the work of the PPT in various inexplicable market rises.<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/longterm/... >

And then there is the notion, growing among many economic experts, that the simple fact that our economy is based much more on the finanicial sector rather than the manufacturing sector is a sure sign that we're an empire in decline. Witness the British empire, the Spanish empire, the Dutch empire, etc. etc. In the twilight of their power, they all became financially based economies, subject to the vageries of the markets and unable to manufacture for their own needs. Shortly after this happened, they collapsed into ruin. If you want more explanation of this, I would suggest that you read Kevin Phillip's "American Theocracy".

Meanwhile, the basic underpinnings of our economy are still shaky. We're still running up massive deficits, our debt is still 8.5 trillion, a huge drag on our economy for decades to come, citizens are still up to their eyeballs in consumer debt, our trade deficits are vast, our jobs are being outsourced to India, with nothing but low paying service sector jobs replacing them. All in all, it doesn't look good. Don't judge the economy on the basis of the Dow, that's nothing but smoke and mirrors to entrance the masses. Dig into the numbers behind the Dow, and you'll find some serious problems underneath.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #36
56. Good informative post.
especially for our conservative guests.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
57. Good points about the DOW
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 10:50 AM by Lasher
Your post would have been even better if you would have stated in your first paragraph that the DOW is comprised of industrial stocks only, as this is an important distinction.

I'm glad the DOW has been doing better lately but I like to think in terms of how we've been doing since January 2001, particularly since Junior has been claiming lately that the economy is doing great because of his economic policies.

The previous DOW high water mark was at 11,723 on January 14, 2000. It was at 10,578 when Bush took office on January 22, 2001.

It didn't reach another all-time high until this month, when it closed at 11,727 on October 4. Even discounting the narrow focus of the DOW, this is pretty sorry performance and certainly no vindication of Bush's supply-side economic principles.

It closed on Friday October 20 at 12,011.73. That's an annualized growth during Bush's tenure of about 2.5%.

And guess what, it was 15.9% under Clinton, 9.8% under Poppy, and 11.3% under Reagan. The index also did better under Presidents Ford, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Calvin Coolidge. Much better.

Since World War I, the only presidents with a worse Dow Jones Industrials record than the incumbent were Herbert Hoover, Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter.

How about gas prices? They're down now but they were $1.46 in January 2001. Today they're $2.206, an increase of 51%.

How about jobs? Ignoring sleight-of-hand accounting that you correctly mentioned,unemployment was 4.2% in January and February 2001. It has not ever been that low since and is at 4.6% today.

Since January 2001, non-farm payrolls have added an average of 46,200 jobs a month. That's good, right?

Clinton: 237,000 a month.

Reagan: 168,000.

Carter: 215,000.

Bush's dad presided over a recession so bad it cost him his job. His record must be worse, right?

His average: 54,000 a month. That's 17 percent higher than junior's.

http://news.bostonherald.com/editorial/view.bg?articlei...

And The Decider has the guts to claim that his tax cuts are working?

In early 2001, the President's Council of Economic Advisors (CEA) announced that if the first round of Bush's $2.1 trillion income tax cuts were passed quickly, it would result in the creation of 800,000 additional jobs by the end of 2002 due to the tax cut alone.

And, once again, in February 2003 the President's CEA assured that the adoption of a second round of Bush tax cuts would create 1.4 million additional jobs - 510,000 in 2003 and another 891,000 for 2004 - all solely attributable to the tax cuts.

All total, that amounts to a Bush promise of 2.2 million jobs created between 2001 and 2004 as a direct consequence of passage of the tax cuts that mostly benefited the rich.

During that period, however, the U.S. economy added only about 800,000 jobs, according to the Labor Department. To put that in context, about 2.1 million jobs were added to the economy annually over the previous two decades, including intervals of recession. During Bush's first four years, just a tenth of that number of jobs was created each year.

http://modernamerica.blogspot.com/2005/06/supply-side-e...


Edit: Change DOW annualized growth percentage during Bush tenure from 2% to 2.5%
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
63. Where do they make "Tickle Me Elmo"?
Where do they make all the Christmas toys? Where do they make all the electronic garbage people think they need? Where does the oil come from that people are burning in their fancy cars, and where do alot of those cars come from? Answer: NOT AMERICA Sure we need sales people to sell people that stuff but how much does the check out guy at Best Buy make? Not enough to afford many Escalades.

If we have an economy that MAKES anything, then you are correct, but we don't. "Free market-just cut taxes and everything will be OK people" don't realize this yet.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. We're called peons
because that's what happens. We get peed on.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. It doesn't. In fact, Wall Street does just great when companies
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 07:45 PM by Union Thug
announce lay-offs and worker purges. Wall Street and Main Street should be at war. Too bad Americans are so willing to take the shaft.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Has gas prices continued to drop in your area's??
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Paulie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. Easy, 401k loan!
How else, home equity is tapped out, 401k loans are free see, you pay yourself interest, so it's free! :sarcasm:
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. ECONOMY 101
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 11:58 PM by fuzzyball
There are two types of employers in the country.

1. Those who produce something useful to us, be it a gadget or service.
Examples are Automobiles, Cell phones, Clothes, Food products,
Computer software, Airlines, Trucking, Tax preparation, Hospitals,
Funeral services etc. These are mostly for profit outfits.

2. Those who impose tax on above and provide services for the public
such as IRS, Medicare, Social Security, Defense dept., Police,
Fire protection, Jails etc.

In order for those in category 2 to be able to function effectively
requires that those in category 1 be thriving entities. The more money
and profits by group 1 means more money is available to group 2.

In order to set up, expand, and maintain goods and services producing centers
requires capital. The capital can be obtained in mainly 3 ways.

1. The owners of the enterprise contribute their personal money
2. The enterprise can borrow capital by issuing bonds.
3. The enterprise can raise capital by issuing stocks which represent
proportional ownership in the enterprise.

The 1st item is limited since individuals do not have enough capital
to start a large enterprise.

The advantage of the 3rd method above is that the enterprise does not have
to pay the principal amount back. Bonds, when issued requires paying not
only interest but the face value of bond has to be paid back upon maturity.

Now getting back to your question how a rising stock market helps....

If a company's stock is high, they can issue ADDITIONAL STOCKS at the
higher price and raise more capital to expand, which means hiring more
people. If stock is selling poorly on the open market of stocks known as
Wall street, the company will not be able to raise significant capital.

Therefor a rising stock market is the primary engine for expansion and
job creation.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Economy 202
When the expansion is in foreign countries, there's no US job creation.

The only job growth in the last several years in the US has been in health care. Got nothin' to do with the DOW. It's all overseas growth that's moving those numbers.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. US unemployment is now lower than in many many years
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 01:59 AM by fuzzyball
it is also true that lots of unskilled and semi skilled jobs
have been exported. But there is still a huge shortage of
highly skilled workers in US.

Also, the personal incomes and tax revenues from those incomes
are the highest ever. However it is also true that But the rich
are getting richer and the poor/unskilled/under educated
are falling behind in comparison.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Due to self-employment
Not jobs. Jobs are only being created in the health sector, everything else is flat. They changed the way they count the employed, anybody who mowed a lawn for $25 is considered employed now, whether they'd prefer to have a real job or not. The stock market is reacting to the global economy, not the US economy. This is a bigger bunch of phony voodoo economics than Reagan's.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. How can anyone fudge the US Treasury tax collection data?
Are you saying the entire government workers are corrupt?
Most of the honcho's there are civil service employees.

Also if small businesses and self-employed are thriving,
I can't see what is so wrong about that.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. If tax reveneus are up because of stock sales and 10% of Americans
own 90% of stock assets, then that's not a a good sign. And tax revenues are also up because last year the government gave a one-time break on the repatriation of corporate money to the US that should normally be taxed at a much higher rate. Companies that had been sheltering billions overseas for years, brought it all back to pay their CEOS more money in low-taxed dividends, after it was taxed at low repatriation rates. It's a one-time windfall to the treasury, unlikely to be repeated, and another concentration of wealth in the hands of the wealthy.

Also, if small businesses, self-employed, and people who work at MacDonalds have low-paying jobs, it doesn't mean they're thriving.

Every indicator shows that the small sliver of wealthy are getting wealthier, and working people and middle class are struggling with more debt, lower wages, and higher costs of health care, insurance, energy and education. That's not good. That's a lot like the circumstances that precipitated the Great Depression.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
58. Personal tax revenues, American middle class, Gap between rich & poor
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 11:04 AM by fuzzyball
I agree that the gap between the rich and poor is wider.
However the gap itself is not the evil. You have to
examine if the poor are getting poorer. If they are
on ABSOLUTE terms then it is bad. If they are poorer
RELATIVE to the rich then that is not so bad.

US Treasury publishes data on personal income tax and
corporate income tax. If the personal income taxes of
US taxpayers is at record level, it then follows that
the personal income is at record levels. A lot of
people out there are making record amount of money. And
most of them are very skilled at what they do. The unskilled
and under-educated are certainly falling behind the others.

When I observe my kid's friends (13 to 16 age groups, mostly
middle/upper middle class)and it seems to me that the
American born kids are more interested in clothes, music and
cell phone models. The immigrant kids on the other hand get
the best grades.

Seems to me that educating yourself to your highest potential
is no longer the priority to the American middle class.
So long as that trend persists, the Chinese and the Indians
who outnumber us by a factor of EIGHT and who are educating
themselves like crazy, will further retrograde the
American middle class in today's world economy. I am afraid
the days of good union wages for semi-skilled work are behind
us.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. No. The gap does have a huge impact on social health and well-being
I suggest you read The Health of Nations. (It will also give a very compelling explanation about you why your kids' friends consume the way they do -- it has something to do with the huge gap between rich and poor, by the way.)

BTW, Jeff Sachs makes a similar argument to the one you made in paragraph one about developing economies. I'm with Joe Stiglitz. I disagree with Sachs. I don't think all is good so long as the poor are a little better off this year compared to last year, while the gap grows by leaps and bounds.

Personal income tax revenue is probably high because more middle income people are getting screwed by AMT. That's not good. That's not a sign of increasing well-being. Perhaps it's also high because a few very rich people are paying low rates on very high levels of income. Again, not good.

I suspect educating yourself is still a priority for Americans. However, it's not longer affordable. Something like 1,000,000 people dropped out of college during the Bush years because of affordability problems. The inflation rates for higher education costs are unbelievable. I've seen a lot of my own friends totally screwed by college loan debt (it's outrageous that it survives bankruptcy, by the way). Our society on a political level has lost its committment to educating middle class and working people. It's not the kids fault. It's the people who are representing them in statehouses and in DC.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
52. See post below about offshore accounts
A quirk in the tax law is resulting in the, for lack of a better word "on-shoring" of billions of corporate profits that have been sheltered for the last several years in offshore accounts.

Someone posted about this in DU the other day. Companies are bringing profits back into the US to artificially prop up the stock market.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
59. Where did I say that?
I said scrounging for day labor is not employed. I don't suppose you would see anything wrong with people living on the verge of homelessness - heck, when they become homeless you don't have to count them in the unemployment figures at all!
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
51. So are US wages n/t
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
61. What!!!!!
"it is also true that lots of unskilled and semi skilled jobs
have been exported."

Lots of SKILLED jobs have been exported.

"But there is still a huge shortage of
highly skilled workers in US."

Huh???
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Check into want ads in Sunday's Chicago Tribune...n/t
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. In some cases, maybe the majority, that's a point. However,
often government agencies, including state colleges, will advertise a position when they already have decided who'll get the position.

Second, sometimes recruiters will advertise just to beef up their data base.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
50. Downside of your argument
A rising stock market that enables comapanies to raise money for expansion is useless when the expansion takes place overseas in poor countries with slave labor.

It adds nothing here in the US except to the bottom line of the few execs at the top.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
26. it puts another Rolls in the rich man's garage
another mink in the closet

another yacht in the marina

another mansion in a resort somewhere



but I still ain't got a job

my kids are wearing last winter's coat

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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. get trained as a Rolls mechanic, Yacht maker, or mansion builder...
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 02:26 AM by fuzzyball
In fact my good friend works as a design engineer for
a yacht maker in Portland. They recently built the multi-million $
yacht for Tiger Woods.
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
33. The DOW is actually down
Here's one article with numbers that show it's down about 15% from 2000, but there are plenty others on www.fiendbear.com that show the same. It's all about inflation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/21/business/21charts.htm...
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
40. Simple answer
It doesn't

The stock market is not the economy and the economy is not the stock market

It's amazing how many reublitards I know don't understand this simple concept or any other econ 101 basics.

I thought this is one of the issues that they automatically 'owned' by default.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. What If The Dow Lost Most Of It's Value?


The stock market crash of 1929 launched the Great Depression. The Depression was the time from October 1929 to the mid 1930s. Mass poverty occurred then, as many workers lost their jobs and were forced to live in shanty towns. Former millionaire businessmen were reduced to selling apples and pencils on street corners. One third of Americans were below the poverty line in the Great Depression. The Dow Jones finally surpassed its 1929 high, a full 26 years later in 1955.




http://www.stock-market-crash.net/1929.htm
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. I said one is not the other
The crash, in and of itself was not THE cause of the Depression. It was the run on banks from lending practices that had the most influence, because they loaned money to investors on margin.

There were several other reasons as well.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. You Had Rampant Real Estate Speculation...
Rampant Stock Market Speculation...

Tight monetary and fiscal policies...
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primative1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
42. Dow Jones IS Meaningless Fluff
Why is it that noone seems to know one basic fact.
The Dow Jones is meaningless and anyone who refers to it as some historical gauge of economic activity has been sipping the kool aid. Tracking the Dow average is an exercize in comparing apples to oranges and calling the mess on the counter lemonade.
Why? Simple. The 30 components in the Dow are repeatedly changed. Todays dow jones has little resembalnce to the Dow Jones in 1999 or at any other point in time. If one of the companies in the Dow is doing poorly, out it goes and it is immedietly replaced by a current day high flyer. Thus you have an assembly of 30 stocks that are always going up at any given point in time.
If you assembled the same 30 stocks that comprised the dow in 1999 today, the average would be around 7000, roughly in line with the PERCANTAGE LOSS in the Nasdaq, Russell or any other average.
People who have 401Ks invested in the market know that their balance is not at a record high.
Ignore the hype and you will be better served.
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
43. It will help put food on my table in a couple of years
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 07:15 AM by RebelOne
when I plan on retiring. As the stock market goes up, so do the earnings in my 401K and IRA. And my 401K earnings have jumped considerably in the past 3 months.
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primative1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. But how have they done over past 6 years?
If you have ( buy and hold) net earning greater than +/- 0% since 2000 you are unique.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
44. Isn't it obvious how the working class makes out?
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 07:17 AM by Vinca
The rich guys make their ton of dough on Wall Street, they hire you as a cleaning lady, your husband as a handyman and boom! There you go. Hamburger on the table. (Oops, I checked after I posted and noticed you're a male. You want to be the cleaning lady or the handyman? LOL)
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DocSavage Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
48. So no one has
a 401K or an IRA? Everyone expecting SS to cover thier retirement?

Does anyone understand working capital for a company, and where it comes from? How about profit sharing for employees? Any one, Buhler, Buhler?

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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. Its money coming in from offshore "tax dodge" accounts
trying to lend an artifical boost to the economy to help the GOP this election cycle. It adds nothing to the economy unless its taxed and helps reduce the budget deficit.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
53. THe Dow isn't really geared for currnet income for most people anyway
It's much more effective for future income for folks like you and I.
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