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Still waiting for a reasoned defense to come from a Kerry supporter.

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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 05:58 PM
Original message
Still waiting for a reasoned defense to come from a Kerry supporter.
Come on Kerry supporters, everyone wants to vote for the front runner, it's just that some of us won't check our brains at the door to do so.

To repeat - why is Kerry fully qualified to go against Bush in the general election? *Not - why is Dean worse than Kerry?* And don't mention any of the reasons that have already been refuted ...

1. War hero status. Not enough. If it was, you'd be voting for Clark.

2. Liberal "left of Kennedy" voting record. And this will win the moderate, fiscal conservative, anti-Bush vote HOW?

3. He's won primaries. Core Dems vote in primaries, not fiscal conservatives pissed off at Bush, not moderates itching to bounce him out of the Oval Office. Core Dems _don't_ _win_ _general_ _elections_! They never have, there's not enough of them.

4. He's got media momentum. Since that momentum is provided by the corporate media that has been protecting Bush the last 4 years, that would be a better reason _not_ to vote for him.

5. He "feels more presidential". Can you see that this "feeling" has more to do with your response to media presentation (and you) than the candidate? So your feelings are voting with the media, not the candidate.

There are several Dean supporters here who would love to hear an original, reasoned argument that doesn't repeat the above mantras. Do you have that kind of argument?
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clark doesn't have the domestic experience Kerry has
Your first point is incorrect.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Bzzt! Looking for pro-Kerry, not anti-everyone else. nt
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Here's an easy answer
1. It helps.

2. I prefer a liberal candidate go up against Bush. Dean is perceived as more liberal than Kerry.

3. Kerry wins majorities among those who don't describe themselves as liberal, among young and new voters as well. The only Democrats who win the presidency win the primary. I think that much is obvious.

4. If a candidate can't stand up to media momentum, how will he beat Bush? Kerry came back from terrible media coverage to win Iowa.

5. Again, in Iowa people found Kerry all by themselves. Dean had the big name endorsements, the money, and the inevitability. Kerry was declared DOA in Iowa.

Further, if Dean can't survive against media bias and dirty tricks, he certainly won't beat Bush. I dispute that there is heavy bias, and proof on the dirty tricks has not been forthcoming.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Feel free to answer my points anytime. I'll be waiting. (nt)
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Well, they're new ones at least.
>1. It helps.

It didn't help Max Cleland, and he was running in the South. And clearly 1. does not outweigh 2. for you - kudos to you.

>2. I prefer a liberal candidate go up against Bush. Dean is perceived as more liberal than Kerry.

But you do realize a liberal candidate leaves all of the virulently anti-Bush fiscal conservatives and moderate Republicans without an option, do you? They are potentially aligned with us _only_ because Bush has ceded them to us by his policies. I wouldn't just walk away from that with a candidate that's "left of Kennedy".

>3. Kerry wins majorities among those who don't describe themselves as liberal, among young and new voters as well. The only Democrats who win the presidency win the primary. I think that much is obvious.

I think it's also obvious that most Dems who win the primary _don't_ win the general election. Why not? And it would be good to see a reference to the polls that back up your first assertion.

>4. If a candidate can't stand up to media momentum, how will he beat Bush? Kerry came back from terrible media coverage to win Iowa.

Well, this is close to an anti-Dean argument, but anyway - Dean came out of the Iowa and NH primaries with delegate majorities, and solid 2nd and 3rd place wins. The Comeback Kid got 2nd in NH - does history proved that he was wiped out by Gennifer Flowers?

>5. Again, in Iowa people found Kerry all by themselves. Dean had the big name endorsements, the money, and the inevitability. Kerry was declared DOA in Iowa.

Dean was declared the front-runner and Kerry DOA before the race even started. Why should you vote for Kerry based on such clearly skewed media coverage? Or better yet, why would the corporate media support a candidate with a voting record "left of Kennedy"?


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kerry holds UP to scrutiny. His record matches his campaign voice.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 06:11 PM by blm
Dean failed under closer scrutiny once the media stopped propping him up as they did for most of last year.

PLUS - Dean's record doesn't match his rhetoric.

Karma
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Please, pro-Kerry arguments, not anti-Dean ...
Unless your Kerry support is simply a fallback stance.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Well,
you brought up that you support Dean...so, Dean is a gauge.

Why attack Kerry when you don't even know his record yourself?

Go study.

www.johnkerry.com

Or check history books for his attacks on the legacies of Nixon, Reagan and Bush. Soon to add Bush2.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. The question was - can you support your candidate without a gauge?
And I have studied Kerry's voting record. A lot of good, less significant things like reducing arsenic levels in water, and a lot of major rollovers on the Bush tax cuts and Iraq War.

Clinton did the same with NAFTA, and he lost my vote in '96 because of it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Kerry had a great amendment to NAFTA.
You must have read it in your study of his record. As president, I'm sure he'll work the bully pulpit to implement the protections he added for labor and environment.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Then if Kerry were running against Clinton, I'd vote for The Hair. nt
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 07:34 PM by Casablanca
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. You're right.
Near universal health care for everyone under 18.
Every budget balanced.
50% reduction in teen pregnancy.
Civil unions.
40,000 new jobs.
1/3 of seniors with prescription drug benefits.
blah, blah, blah...

It just doesn't match the rhetoric!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. He didn't do any of those by himself.
And he benefitted ALOT from the Clinton years just as every other state did. in the 90s.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. no one in politics ever does ANYTHING by themselves . . . n/t
.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. blah, blah, blah
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. yeah, well...I was much more civil to you
when you were mocking my support for Kerry.

You see, RIF...Kerry's a long distance biker........
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YouMustBeKiddingMe Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because the majority of the American public prefer him over Bush
The will of the majority prevails. This needs not be justified to a few disgruntled Dean supporters.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. How do you measure the majority? Polls are a _minority_. nt
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macedc Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Not Exactly
as pointed kerry is a real liberal guy
only dems, not america, have voted

i don't think its clear that he can run well once the conservatives start thowing the L word around bigtime
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Here's an easy one for you. He's leading Bush in the polls.
Though, that's likely not a good enough reason for you, I'm sure.

Heck, I'm not even a Kerry supporter.

"There are several Dean supporters here who would love to hear an original, reasoned argument that doesn't repeat the above mantras. Do you have that kind of argument?"

I'm sure there are plenty of Kerry supporters that would like to hear a similar, in-depth analysis of why Dean is a better candidate than Kerry, without all of the standard Dean "mantras" often offered.

Your "mantras", by the way, are rather oversimplified. How many supporters do you know of who are voting for a candidate solely for one reason? Not many, if any. Most people choose their candidates for a multitude of reasons and base their decisions on the overall candidate.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. You assume wrong. It would be a positive for Kerry ...
If polls were accurate. How accurate were they in 2000. 2002? Just before Iowa?

The only polls I take seriously are election results (unless e-voting machines were involved) and exit polls. And NH exit polls showed that people who voted on specific issues voted for Dean, and people who voted for intangibles like "electability" voted for Kerry.
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. Polls....
Re: polls - the polls shortly before the Iowa caucus were showing an obvious Kerry surge (and one by Edwards), as were the polls in NH. The trend was there.

Exit polls are fine, but Dean still lost big-time in IA and NH, so I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. 40% of Iowans certainly didn't vote for Kerry for the sole reason that he's "electable".
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Agreed, but primary results are just not a solid predictor ...
Of general election results. If Dems are serious about taking down Bush, they've got to think beyond the primaries, so the primary results really shouldn't be overstated.

The national media polls would be a better indicator, but those polls are often wrong, and they're value to leading people to a false sense of complacency (or futility) is too great for them not to be used as propaganda. I'll consider Zogby results before I'll even look at a CNN/Newsweak/MSNBC/CorporateBorg poll.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. But how many of that 40%
Were the Gephardt suporters who only voted for Kerry to knock out Dean. I find it difficult to believe that Gephardt had only 11% support in Iowa.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. My personal opinion
Not one thing that you list matters. Not a one. And I prefer Clark to Kerry hands down.

All that matters in this election is *'s record. This election will be about *, not Kerry. If Democrats try making it about anything else they are wasting valuable time. The electorate is completely turned off to * specifically and Republicans generally.

If Democrats show up in November the way that they are in the primaries then it doesn't matter *what* the independents do. Independents are NOT going to vote for Bush in droves. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if indies break 2-1 in favor of whoever the Democrat is. (And don't forget that many true conservatives will not show up for *.) Unless things change greatly between now and November, I expect a landslide. I also expect that we will take back *both* the House and the Senate.

So the bottom line is Kerry, Schmerry he ain't * - and that's all that matters.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. Sorry my friend, but it will be about Kerry, not Bush ...
The bought-and-paid-for corporate media will ensure that. The fact that Kerry is running against an incumbent will ensure that.

People know about Bush, so the candidacy will be about how Kerry is different from Bush.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. So sorry, but you are wrong.
Unless there is something hideously bad about Kerry, the public will not be moved. It's hard to worry about a candidate's minor flaws when the alternative is to vote for the clown that shipped your job to India. Misery trumps even the corporate media. This will shock the media, but it may do them some good.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. I hope you're right, but from what I've seen of the American electorate ..
I don't expect to be.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I understand that!
But I have never seen so many people so angry at a President. They weren't this angry at Bush I or Carter; probably because they weren't as polarizing. There is a lot of anger from the left and center, and a lot of resentment from the right towards *. I think that this will be a very good year for the Democrats. It's a shame that the cost is so high.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. You answered your own question:
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 06:11 PM by rucky
Core Dems vote in primaries, not fiscal conservatives pissed off at Bush, not moderates itching to bounce him out of the Oval Office.


My question: Why don't they, if they're so pissed? ... and explain the record turnouts, while you're at it.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Good point. I'd say new voters and independents are coming on board ...
And the fiscal conservatives are hanging back to see if the Dems are going to buck their own history and nominate a solid fiscal conservative.

This is based on what I've seen at meetups and the caucus today, and what _I'd_ do if I were a fiscal conservative angry at Bush.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kerry's umbrella is huge
He has the staunch support of environmentalists, women, veterans, anti-war people, people who are somewhat pleased with Bush, people who abhor Bush, small business people, internet users, college students, rural folk, urban folk, moderates, liberals, centrists, independents, health care workers, teachers unions, firefighters, auto unions, labour unions, southerners, northerners, westerners, easterners, etc.
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macedc Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. What has he Actualy Ever Stood For
not much as far as i can see

gone along to get along is what he is about

maybe that is the best way to get elected and i for one would vastly prefer him to bush anyday, so no problem ther

but i guess then DNC types are real afraid that someone might come in and actually try to do something about the healthcare system

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. That's absurd.
Kerry is a historic figure who took on Nixon, Reagan and Bush.

He stands as the one man who has exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history.

That doesn't mean anything to you?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. for one thing, he stands for protecting the environment . . .
has a sterling record as an environmentalist . . . which just happens to be my big issue . . . if we destroy the earth, the air, and the water, none of the other issues will matter much . . .
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. Kerry Threads are more reasoned than most. Here as some answers
With all respect. There are some reasonable Kerry supporters behind the modest Kerry victories around the country.

Kerry has shown that his is a willing to lead and speak out for great progressive ideals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Kerry will beat George Bush

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


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macedc Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. What Positions
Kerry's healthcare positions (his web site) are a joke of feel good bs that will give him huge wiggle room to pretend to be progressive while not really taking on the Drug companies for example

Dean stands for something definite

Now it may be that both are irrelavant since if the dems don't take back congress nothing changes, except it may stop from getting worse

Moreover, maybe kerry's experience leads him to know that being definite about what your for is political suicide anyway.
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Responses to the first link ...
>1. This is the guy who spent 4 years in the Military, 24/7, in the mess hall, on the ship deck, in the jungle and swamps with brothers who for the most part were draftees who didnt have the connections to get at ticket out of the draft. To a man they testify to Kerrys humanity, camaraderie and soul. Remember, Kerry was a volunteer, enlisting before the draft because it wasnt fair for poor kids to serve and die while rich kids skipped service.

Good, but Clark didn't just serve in a war, he ran them. And that would be Bush's response in a general election if Kerry brings up his national service. Most voters (who don't look at the details) will agree. Bush wouldn't dare bring it up in a debaate before Clark, and if he does, Clark will demolish him in his response.

> 2. This is the guy who protested the war, at a time when protesters were labeled communists, hippies and dope-heads. He rode the buses, slept on the ground, went to jail, testified against war atrocities basically did things that are likely to f*up your life and carrier, unless you can overthrow the establishment.

Sounds like someone who can be portrayed as a loony 60s-style liberal to me, which we know he isn't. But fiscal conservatives won't take chances on someone that might spend as much money as Bush is now spending. And there's a lot more of them than progressives.

> 3. This is the Senator who spent much of his Senate career making peace with our former enemies in south-east Asia ...

So did Kissenger.

>and making war against Reagan-Bush covert operations in Central America and secret involvement in the Iran/Iraq war.

If true, that's a solid positive. But unfortunately, Iran-Contra is ancient history to most Americans, and won't help him get in the Oval Office.

>4. This is the Senator who supported the Sandinistas in Nicaragua and helped expose and take out of power Marcos in the Phillipines, Noriega in Panama and Suharto in Indonesia.

A solid positive for you and me, but most people still have no idea what happened there in the mid-80s, so it won't get Kerry into the Oval Office.

>5. This is the Senator who exposed CIA corruption and drug connections and, to the chagrin of Repubs and Dems alike, has managed to find quite a few big-budget military systems that he doesnt like.

Again, a solid positive for you and me, but Bush will also claim to expose CIA corruption and incompetance in the 9/11 and Iraq War affairs. What does Kerry have to offer in his record (not current rhetoric) to counter this?

>6. This is the Senator who is notorious for controversial ideas and proposals that rarely do more than annoy his fellow senators, but has still managed to vote so consistently to support the environment and the poor that he maintained one of the strongest progressive voting records in the senate.

Kucinich has a better record on this, and could go against Bush more effectively, than Kerry can. And the environment as a candidacy issues is iffy, as Gore's 2000 campaign demonstrated.



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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. You're wrong. JK has a better environmental rating than DK.
And Kerry's lifetime ratings by progressive organizations is higher overall than even Kucinich's.

Kerry is a combination of Clark and Kucinich, with a little bit of Gore and Kennedy thrown in.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Electability more than a buzzword
We've been giving the reasons for months now. Electability means alot. I just talked to a guy today who said he was leaning Kerry because he knows Kerry has worked on health care for a long time. It's true, despite what people around here want to believe. His record gives his words credibility and when stacked up against Bush or any other candidate, electability.

His credibility on Iraq doesn't come from his war record, it comes from being involved in national security and foreign policy issues for 20 years.

His credibility on foreign policy comes from his work in Vietnam, Cambodia and other foreign countries as well as his work on Kyoto, Jordan Trade Agreement, etc.

His credibility on domestic security comes from being involved with first responders for years. It comes from investigations into money laundering, drug & gun smuggling, and similar issues related to terrorism for years. And recommending courses of action that we now see were right, like reorganizing the CIA.

His credibility on domestic policy comes from cops on the street and crime legislation, welfare reform, budget reductions, small business interests, womens rights, education, health care, etc.

Add in his core nature to fight, which we see even though others don't, and you've got a candidate who can beat the tar out of George Bush. More electability.

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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. DNC want him-they know what is best for us - so there!!(sarcasm)
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macedc Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Here-Here
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. Let Me Give It The Ole College Try
1. War hero status. Not enough. If it was, you'd be voting for Clark.

War hero status is just a shield against attacks on one's patriotism and smears of being an effete liberal ala Dukakis. Kerry was also chair of the anti-terrorism committee, wrote a book on the subject, and has led historic investigations regarding the means by which terrorists launder money (BCCI).

On top of that, Kerry also has an amazing pro-veteran record, and a long record of cutting defense pork (this debate will flesh out in the general election - and will be awesome!).

Plus Kerry has a working knowledge of international diplomacy and is intimately familiar with the cultures around the world - and how that informs their foreign policies. And you can throw Teresa (5 languages fluently) in as a First Diplomat, as well.

2. Liberal "left of Kennedy" voting record. And this will win the moderate, fiscal conservative, anti-Bush vote HOW?

Kerry has a socially liberal voting record, but also bucked his party to support balancing the budget as far back as the Reagan years. That said, Kerry is also providing practical, responsible solutions to our health care crisis (simple, cost-cutting, and passable), creating a strong economic climate, raising taxes only on the comfortable, and ridding us of Middle Eastern oil dependence.

The GOP will talk wedge issues, Kerry will talk bread and butter.

3. He's won primaries. Core Dems vote in primaries, not fiscal conservatives pissed off at Bush, not moderates itching to bounce him out of the Oval Office. Core Dems _don't_ _win_ _general_ _elections_! They never have, there's not enough of them.

The core Dems turned out for Howard Dean and the other anti-war candidates. However, given the stakes of the race, there have been unprecedented turn outs this season. These are not core Dems. These are people who would normally have stayed home. Secondly, Kerry already has a 5 point lead on Bush. People are fed up with all the crap. Thirdly, Bush will have to debate Kerry sooner or later (joy of joys!). Fourthly, Bush is a coke-snorting AWOL boy that pulled an Enron on his old business Harken (that's before we get into Halliburton). Should I go on?

4. He's got media momentum. Since that momentum is provided by the corporate media that has been protecting Bush the last 4 years, that would be a better reason _not_ to vote for him.

The bubble is bursting for Bush. He played the media for fools and they know it. I'm not saying they will give Kerry a free ride, but I am saying they also won't for Bush. And that's all we ask.

5. He "feels more presidential". Can you see that this "feeling" has more to do with your response to media presentation (and you) than the candidate? So your feelings are voting with the media, not the candidate.

This is long-held belief by many of us. The guy's a big Lincoln log of man with a face like Mt. Rushmore and a booming voice. And he's got hair that only belongs on Presidents and shampoo commercials. He's also one of the only candidates in the last 30 years that could actually hold his own with the Founding Fathers in a debate.


Yes, that is his hair dryer.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Damn - you're good! Concise and to the point!
and I agree 100%.

:kick:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thanks for the Support!
I sometimes wonder if people just hear what they want to, but it's worth a shot...
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CalProf Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. You are a patient man, Doctor n/t
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Thanks, this was a good pro-Kerry set ...
>War hero status is just a shield against attacks on one's patriotism and smears of being an effete liberal ala Dukakis.

True, but two words - Saxby Chambliss. It doesn't always work when you expect it to.

>Kerry was also chair of the anti-terrorism committee, wrote a book on the subject, and has led historic investigations regarding the means by which terrorists launder money (BCCI).

If true, that's great. Thanks for a solid potential positive for Kerry. Although I've heard there's a few skeletons in the BCCI closet for Kerry that I haven't confirmed one way or the other. And what did _achieved_ on the anti-terrorism committee is more important. Committees are often coverup cons.

>On top of that, Kerry also has an amazing pro-veteran record, and a long record of cutting defense pork (this debate will flesh out in the general election - and will be awesome!).

That's a "every bit helps" argument, but Bush's record with vets is so bad is wouldn't be difficult for any of the Dem candidates to eclipse it. And it's not an issue that will cost Bush a second term, because it hasn't, in any serious way, in the polls.

>Plus Kerry has a working knowledge of international diplomacy and is intimately familiar with the cultures around the world - and how that informs their foreign policies. And you can throw Teresa (5 languages fluently) in as a First Diplomat, as well.

So does Clark. And again, just about any Dem candidate can shine next to Bush's abysmal record in foreign policy. But if Kerry gets called on his waffling on the Iraq War stance, will most Americans trust him enough to listen to the fine print? I don't believe they will.

> Kerry has a socially liberal voting record, but also bucked his party to support balancing the budget as far back as the Reagan years.

Except when voting for the Bush tax cut. That's my prediction of Kerry's style based on his record - a lot of little good moves, a few massive rollovers at crucial points. Too Clintonesque, and I think the Dems have better options this year.

>That said, Kerry is also providing practical, responsible solutions to our health care crisis (simple, cost-cutting, and passable), creating a strong economic climate, raising taxes only on the comfortable, and ridding us of Middle Eastern oil dependence.

>The GOP will talk wedge issues, Kerry will talk bread and butter.

The GOP will talk credibility "Which Kerry is Kerry this week.". If Kerry can't defend himself better than he has on the issue of his Iraq War vote, he won't get another hearing because everything will be painted with that brush.

>The core Dems turned out for Howard Dean and the other anti-war candidates. However, given the stakes of the race, there have been unprecedented turn outs this season. These are not core Dems. These are people who would normally have stayed home.

New voters and independents. The vast majority of fiscal conservatives and moderate independents and Repubs would rather stay home than vote for a liberal candidate from the Northeast, and Dean's fundraising results strongly suggest to me that there's a lot more of them than are new people showing up at the primaries.

>Secondly, Kerry already has a 5 point lead on Bush.

Gore had a double-digit lead on Bush almost right up to the election. Oops. And polls are, by definition, minorites, not the voice of the majority. And if they're conducted by people like say, CNN or Newsweak or any of the corporate media, the results are always questionable.

>People are fed up with all the crap. Thirdly, Bush will have to debate Kerry sooner or later (joy of joys!).

I don't look forward to Bush calling Kerry on his key pro-Bush votes.

>Fourthly, Bush is a coke-snorting AWOL boy that pulled an Enron on his old business Harken (that's before we get into Halliburton).

Not provable enough (yet) to be a candidacy issue.

>The bubble is bursting for Bush. He played the media for fools and they know it. I'm not saying they will give Kerry a free ride, but I am saying they also won't for Bush. And that's all we ask.

I think the media played and play the American electorate for fools. Bush would never have gotten away with a tenth of what he has gotten away with without a completely complicit American media. Yes, Rove calls reporters weenies, but their bosses see Bush admin as the best regime to defend the media conglomerates they're a part of. It's a co-dependent relationship, even if not always a happy one.

>>5. He "feels more presidential". Can you see that this "feeling" has more to do with your response to media presentation (and you) than the candidate? So your feelings are voting with the media, not the candidate.

>This is long-held belief by many of us. The guy's a big Lincoln log of man with a face like Mt. Rushmore and a booming voice.

In a booming voice competition between Dean and Kerry, who do you think would win?

>And he's got hair that only belongs on Presidents and shampoo commercials. He's also one of the only candidates in the last 30 years that could actually hold his own with the Founding Fathers in a debate.

Now wait a minute, I know the Founding Fathers personally, and they would say ...

In my opinion, there's too much at stake in this election to make "feels more presidential" a serious qualification for a candidate.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Kerry didn't vote for Bush's taxcut. Not in 2001 or 2003.
.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Re: I don't look forward to Bush calling Kerry on his key pro-Bush votes
I do!
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CalProf Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Not quite
>Gore had a double-digit lead on Bush almost right up to the election. Oops. And >polls are, by definition, minorites, not the voice of the majority. And if they're >conducted by people like say, CNN or Newsweak or any of the corporate media, the >results are always questionable.


Gore trailed Bush up until the Dem convention. He got a bounce from that that put him in the lead for a few weeks and then he sank until the week before the election. You can look it up.

Your comment that polls are by definition not the voice of the majority is, um, baffling. Of course not. They're samples. Not perfect, but often a reasonable approximation.

Another point before I go off to dinner:

>The GOP will talk credibility "Which Kerry is Kerry this week.". If Kerry can't defend himself better than he has on the issue of his Iraq War vote, he won't get another hearing because everything will be painted with that brush.

Oh please please please. Let's talk about "credibility" with the Bush Administration. Please please please. Bush will lose in a landslide.

I hope you're right. I hope they bring it up. Kerry'll beat Bush like a red-headed stepchild.

Look, you're showing here that you don't give a hoot about Kerry. You want Dean to win. Great. Keep supporting him.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
36. You want to be converted, not convinced.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 07:03 PM by poskonig
If someone mentions foreign policy credibility, solid issues, effective campaigning, good media skiils, and polished oratory, you reject it all. Perhaps you want a candidate with NO foreign policy credibility, is crappy on the issues, can't effectively use campaign resources, makes a joke of themselves in the media, and is inarticulate. This isn't a "reasoned" approach at all.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
43. John Kerry
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 07:42 PM by bigtree
is a progressive Democrat who has worked to establish and further Democratic principles in his advocacy, creation and representation of issues related to the environment and energy, national defense and veteran's issues, corporate and governmental oversight and accountability, health and quality of life, civil rights and minority issues, education, crime, as well as to ecomonic issues and jobs.


Environment

Criticizing what he called the Bush administration's "lasting damage" to the environment, Democratic Sen. John Kerry promised to "make environmental justice the law of the land" and to create a new enforcement office within the Environmental Protection Agency if he's elected president in 2004.

Under his administration, Kerry said, every community would have more power to fight back against polluters. As president, he would support cuts in mercury, sulfur, nitrogen and carbon emissions; clean up more toxic waste sites and reduce the harmful chemicals being released to the air, water and land; and reduce greenhouse gases that cause global warming.

He would also create a program to ensure that the federal government considers environmental justice in its decisions affecting communities, create a new office within the EPA dedicated to addressing issues of environmental injustice, and establish a national system for tracking chronic diseases and environmental health hazards.

"For too long, poor and minority communities have been overlooked when it came to the environment," said Kerry, who spoke to a largely black community group in Boston yesterday but to a mostly white crowd in Concord. "For too long, they didn't have the power to fight back, and for too long, polluters thought they could get away with breaking the law as long as it was in someone else's back yard."
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/earthday...


Defense

As President, I will chart a new course rooted in our enduring values. I will replace the Bush years of isolation with a new era of alliances - because while the Cold War has ended, our need for allies to confront and overcome a different array of dangers and challenges is as great or greater than ever.

As President, I will not cede our security to any nation or institution - and adversaries will have no doubt of my resolve to use force if necessary - but I will always understand that even the only superpower on earth cannot succeed without co-operation and compromise with our friends and allies.

Instead of demeaning diplomacy, I will restore diplomacy as a tool of the strong - and enlist expert and thoughtful Americans of both parties as envoys to carry a new American message around the world.

I will carry that message to the world myself in my first hundred days in office. I will go to the United Nations and travel to our traditional allies to affirm that the United States has rejoined the community of nations. I will make it clear that when the Secretary of State speaks, he or she speaks for America - not for the losing cause of internationalism inside an Administration obsessed with its own hubris and swagger.
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M...


Military and Veterans

Instead of gratitude, members of the Guard and Reserve find the Bush administration's military agenda leaving them behind. In addition, earlier this year, the Republican majority in the U.S. House of Representatives sought to cut reservist pay by 40 percent for normal peacetime training requirements. The Republican majority in the U.S. Senate blocked efforts to extend health care benefits to Guard and Reserve members. Just this month, the Republican majority in Congress voted against legislation by Senator DURBIN that would have provided supplemental income for Federal employees who are called up to active duty. These efforts are wrong and demonstrate the misplaced priorities of the Republican Party.

To make matters worse, the Bush administration recently announced that it would require thousands of National Guard and Army Reserve troops to extend their tours of duty up for an additional six months. This extension will cause significant economic difficulties for the reservists, their families, their employers, and our national economy.

Beyond the hardship of leaving their families, their homes and their regular employment, more than one-third of military reservists and National Guard members face a pay cut when they're called for active duty. Many of these reservists have families who depend upon that paycheck and can least afford a substantial reduction in pay.

That is why I have proposed creating a Small Business Military Reservist Tax Credit, which does two things. First, it provides an immediate Federal income tax credit to any small business to help with the cost of temporarily replacing a reservist employee that has been called up to active duty. Second, it provides a tax credit to small businesses that pay any difference in salary for an employee who is called up. This tax credit is worth up to $12,000 to any small business and up to $20,000 for small manufacturers.
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php ?
speech_id=M000025024&keyword=defense&phrase=&contain=


The issue here is simple and fundamental: It is about the character of our country. I believe it is wrong to put the needs of our troops and the claims of our veterans behind a massive tax giveaway for the wealthy that is unwarranted, unaffordable, and unfair. Never in its history has the United States passed a big tax cut in a time of war. We have always believed in shared sacrifice. And it is wrong to pad the pockets of special interests before we fulfill our solemn obligations to those that have served.

Indeed, I believe we have a special duty to all vets with disabilities. Today, there are 280,000 veterans awaiting their disability rating. And 108,000 veterans are waiting on appeals of rating decisions. This is just not acceptable. We deserve leadership that will streamline the VA so veterans hear back about their status and receive their benefits when they need them.

So for us, the fight continues. Every advancement, every recognition of veterans' valor, every time obligations have been kept, it has been because veterans pushed for it. Agent Orange, outreach centers, extension of the GI Bill, increased funding for Veterans Affairs. All these happened because veterans remembered their brothers and sisters and never stopped fighting to keep faith with the promise to veterans. I believe our veterans have fought enough and we shouldn't have to fight, year after year, for the benefits we have already earned. Our veterans health care shouldn't depend on the yearly whims of budget cutters. They've earned their benefits. Those benefits ought to be there. And if I am President, they will be.
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M...


Corporations and Oversight

Q: Should there be more legal oversight of the stock exchange or of the way corporate boards are put together?
KERRY: We need to democratize the process. Clearly, boards of directors need to be represented better with respect to shareholders. There are many things we can do. The reason to be concerned about it is not as a matter of targeting CEOs or being angry at business. It's because it's a matter of fundamental fairness of how we hold ourselves together as a country.

It goes to the core of how Americans ought to have a relationship between worker and those they work for. And that workplace has been abused. When you have misconduct in the boardroom, it's as bad as a mugging in the streets, except that in many ways it's broader because more people are hurt. And many Americans are feeling mugged by what is happening in this country today, the fundamental unfairness.

Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003
http://issues2002.org/2004/John_Kerry_Corporations.htm


In early 1986, Senator John Kerry began an investigation of allegations that elements of the supply network supporting the Contras were linked to drug traffickers.

In April 1986, Senator Kerry took the information he had developed to the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (SFRC), Richard Lugar, who agreed to conduct a staff inquiry into these allegations. In February 1987, the SFRC expanded the focus of the inquiry to include the impact of drug trafficking from the Caribbean and Central and South America on U.S. foreign policy interests. In April, the responsibility for this broader investigation was given to the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and International Operations, chaired by Senator Kerry.

The Subcommittee's report, "Drugs, Law Enforcement and Foreign Policy" ("the Kerry Report"), was published in December 1988 and identified six companies that had been owned and operated by convicted or suspected drug traffickers and were linked to the Contras.
http://www.uhuh.com/bbks/ciacontras/pilots.htm


Health

KERRY'S HEALTH CARE PLAN

Have the federal government take over states' Medicaid costs for poor and disabled children. In exchange, states would cover the overwhelming majority of uninsured children and their low-income parents.

Require states to offer coverage to poor adults without children, when the economy improves.

Allow businesses and individuals access to the health insurance program that covers the president and members of Congress. Tax credits would be available, based on income, to make it more affordable.

Create a system that helps businesses manage the catastrophic costs of a few individuals through a new insurance pool. In exchange, the savings would be passed on to workers through lowered premiums.

Make it easier for cheaper, generic drugs to get to market. Require more public disclosure in pharmaceutical purchases.

Require medical malpractice lawsuits to be reviewed by state panels, to block frivolous lawsuits; bar punitive damages except in the most egregious cases.

Encourage technological innovation to reduce medical errors.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/2003-05-...


On May 16 Senators Kerry and Frist introduced their long-awaited global AIDS bill. Drawn up in close consultation with non-governmental groups working on global HIV/AIDS, the bill authorizes very large increases in US spending for global HIV/AIDS, including a total of $2.132 billion for fiscal year 2003 and $2.506 billion for fiscal year 2004. Those funds include both bilateral assistance as well as a significant contribution ($1 billion in 2003 and $1.2 billion in 2004) to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria. This is a large step towards the Health Action AIDS campaign's ultimate goal of 2.5 billion dollars annually in U.S. contributions towards the Global Fund. Funds for infectious disease prevention and treatment programs through the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) will be authorized in a separate bill; when those expected totals are added, Senate staff anticipate that the combined total for global infectious disease for fiscal year 2003 will be more than $2.6 billion.

The authors of the initiative have worked with Senators across the political spectrum to build strong bipartisan support for the measure. As a consequence, the Kerry-Frist bill stands a good chance of passing, representing a real triumph for US policy on HIV/AIDS. Sums such as those in the Kerry-Frist bill of well over $2 billion per year for the global AIDS pandemic were something activists could only dream of just a year ago.

Health Action AIDS, while continuing to push for $2.5 billion annually in US contributions to the Global Fund, at the same time strongly supports the Kerry-Frist legislation, welcomes its introduction, and urges health professionals to contact their Senators in support of the bill's enactment. The challenge now is building the political support to authorize and appropriate funding to sustain comprehensive prevention, care, and treatment programs in every AIDS and TB, and Malaria-afflicted country. Billions of dollars for both bilateral and multilateral assistance are needed, as are modalities for developing health infrastructure in poor countries so that large sums can be absorbed effectively.
http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/aids/news0520.html


I believe we must take bold action to address the fact that Congress has not provided adequate funding for the health care of Medicare beneficiaries who select HMOs and other private sector health plans. In many parts of Massachusetts, and in other parts of the country, funding for Medicare+Choice plans has been limited to annual increases of only 2 percent in most years since 1998. These increase are inadequate at a time when health care costs are rising by 8 to 10 percent annually. This level of inadequate funding is unfair to the 170,000 Medicare beneficiaries in Massachusetts who have selected private health plan options. I am a strong supporter of the wonderful health plans we have in Massachusetts--Harvard, Tufts, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, and Fallon Community Health Plan. We must step up to the plate to help these plans--nonprofit plans in my State--in their time of need.

Seniors in Massachusetts have come to rely on the high-quality health care they receive through their Medicare+Choice plans. Prescription drugs coverage, disease management services, physician exams, vision benefits, and hearing aids are examples of the additional benefits that are routinely offered by their Medicare+Choice plans.

As the Medicare debate moves forward, it is important for Congress to remember that Medicare+Choice serves as a vital safety net for many of our Nation's most vulnerable seniors. For millions of beneficiaries who cannot afford to purchase a Medigap policy, Medicare+Choice is their only hope for obtaining comprehensive health coverage.
http://www.medicarechoices.org/Kerry8112003.htm


Civil Rights

Every American should have the opportunity to succeed and to live the American dream. Discrimination has no place in a nation founded on the principles of freedom from persecution. While America has made great strides toward true equality, much remains to be done and too often the progress we've made comes under attack. John Kerry voted for every major piece of Civil Rights legislation to come before Congress since 1985, including the Civil Rights Act of 1991, the Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1987, and the Americans with Disabilities Act. He voted for the Equal Rights Amendment, and supports the Employment Nondiscrimination Act.

Here is some of what John Kerry has done and will do to make America a better place:

Judicial Nominations That Will Uphold Our Rights: As lifetime appointments, judicial nominees will shape fundamental issues such as civil rights, religious freedom, privacy rights and freedom of speech for decades to come. Conservative judges bent on enforcing ideology rather than interpreting the law have recently undermined landmark achievements such as the Violence Against Women Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the Age Discrimination in Employment Act. John Kerry believes that individuals appointed to all of our federal courts must be committed to interpreting the law and preserving constitutional and civil rights.

Preserve Affirmative Action: John Kerry believes in an America where we take common sense steps to ensure that our schools and workplaces reflect the full face of America. He has consistently opposed efforts in the Senate to undermine or eliminate affirmative action programs and supports programs that seek to enhance diversity, for example, by fostering the growth of minority small businesses.
http://www.independentsforkerry.com/uploads/media/civil...


In the case of Sen. Kerry's comments on affirmative action, however, the spin of some coverage approaches distortion. In his speech at Yale, Kerry did say that affirmative action should not be the overriding focus of a civil rights agenda, because workplace gains do not necessarily touch the lives of those most in need.

But he also said, "I want to be clear here. I do support affirmative action, not rhetorically but really." The "negative side" of the policy was, for Kerry, the "perception" it engendered in many whites: He cited a poll by People for the American Way that indicated white people believe they are more discriminated against than minorities. Congress, Kerry said, has an obligation "to correct whatever false data or preconceptions have fed the belief that is evidenced in this poll."

Affirmative action, Kerry said, has "made our country a better, fairer place to live," but public misunderstanding of the policy --which Kerry acknowledged has been "exaggerated and exploited by politicians eager to use it" --has created an "obstacle" to interracial communication.
http://www.fair.org/extra/best-of-extra/new-candor.html


Education

Kerry sponsored the Senate New Democrat Coalition Press Release:

The Public Education Reinvestment, Reinvention and Responsibility Act (Three R's) the common ground from which bipartisan compromise on education reform will be successfully achieved. The Three Rs would provide public schools with significantly increased funding and flexibility, increasing federal investment in education by $35 billion over the next 5 years, and targeting most of those new dollars toward closing the persistent achievement gap between poor and more affluent students. State & local officials would be given broader latitude to decide how to allocate federal funding in order to meet the specific needs of their communities. In return, states would be required to set standards for raising academic achievement, and improve the quality of their teachers.

The Three Rs bill is based on the policy recommendations by the Progressive Policy Institute:

Streamline our national education priorities into five goal-oriented titles, focused on: closing the achievement gap between poor and more affluent children; helping to improve teacher quality; helping immigrant students master English and meet high standards in all subjects; promoting public school choice; and stimulating innovative local initiatives

Create a tough new accountability system that pegs program funding to academic performance standards set by the states, and require report cards so that parents know how their school is performing;

Reward states that exceed their standards with more flexibility and bonus funding, and for the first time ever, sanction those states that chronically fail to show improvements, by cutting administrative funds;

Increase funding for disadvantaged students by 50%;

Increase funding for teacher and principal professional development by more than 100%;

Increase funding for immigrant students by $1 billion annually to improve English proficiency;Continue to reduce class size in the early grades.
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Education.htm


Crime:

If we are truly to honor those that fell on September 11th - and all the others who have fallen in the line of duty - then let's give all our local defenders the tools and training to protect us - and the respect and rewards that you deserve.

That starts with providing our police officers with the support they need to protect our public safety. Nothing George Bush has done made it harder for communities to fight crime than his ending our commitment to put 100,000 cops on the beat. I led the fight to put these police officers into our nation's communities where they can make an impact and stop crimes before they happen. And it worked. We saw record drops in violent crime all over America. We got drugs off the streets. Criminals were on the run and communities were able to live in peace because of these brave officers. We owe them our thanks and our support.

But George Bush has slashed funding for these police officers. Our police officers are fighting a two-front war - battling common criminals on one hand and making our homeland secure from attack on the other. Taking cops off the beat is exactly the wrong thing to do. We need to restore funding to the COPS program instead of retreating from the war on crime.


Economy and Jobs

Kerry Says Bush Plan Wrong for Our Workers, Wrong for Our Economy
Tuesday January 7, 2003

Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

"Today's speech by the President is just more evidence that he doesn't understand what ails our slumping economy and refuses to do the things that will put Americans back to work. While largely ignoring the needs of the middle class, the President is practicing bad economics and even worse ideological class warfare. He's speaking the rhetoric working Americans are so eager to hear, but offering only words to distract from his big, new tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans. Why is the President afraid to provide real relief for the workers and consumers who have kept our economy going during tough times and can help jolt the economy back to recovery? Why does the President have so little faith in the workers and small businesspeople who make America strong?

If we are serious about stimulating the economy and providing middle-class tax relief, we need a tax cut that puts money in the hands of Americans who will spend it quickly. Without dipping into Social Security, we should provide payroll tax relief because that is where most working Americans pay the bulk of their taxes. Last month, I outlined a fiscally-responsible plan for jump-starting our nation's economy and laying the foundation for long-term growth. My plan includes a payroll tax holiday for an employee's first $10,000 of wages, an idea that would save the average worker $765 this year - $1,530 for a two-earner family. My plan also includes a number of other elements: a one-year job creation tax credit; increases to the minimum wage and earned-income tax credit; relief targeted to critical investments and dividend payments to encourage measuring the real value of companies; and tax deferral for fast-growing small businesses the reinvest the money to create new jobs. With the economy slumping, the Bush Administration needs to join the effort to provide middle class and low income tax relief and get this economy moving again."
http://johnkerry.convio.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle...


August 4, 2003 - John Kerry Joins Iowa Labor Leaders to Urge Bush to End Plans to Gut Overtime Law
Monday August 4, 2003

Des Moines, IA Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry today joined with Des Moines labor leaders workers to call on President Bush to stop his attempts to jeopardize overtime payments to millions of American workers. John Kerry also announced the circulation of an online petition on the Bush overtime proposal.

"If President Bush has his way, as many as eight million Americans - including fire fighters, police officers, paramedics, nurses, and store supervisors - will be denied the pay their families count on to put food on the table or save for college and a home."

John Kerry also launched a national online petition to stop George W Bush's proposal to gut our nation's overtime law. "Today, I am beginning a national petition drive to demand that President Bush abandon his plan to gut our nation's overtime law. With this petition, Americans will speak up. And we will say that we want an America that works for all its workers and an America where an honest day's pay and a normal work week aren't favors we're given, but rights we have earned."

"Let's remind George Bush that here in America we treat workers with respect and reward their hard work and honest labor. It's time we had a President who fought on the side of American workers instead of one who has turned his back on them."
http://johnkerry.convio.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle...




The Kerry overtime petition can be found at www.johnkerry.com


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