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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:43 PM
Original message
Globalization
This became a side discussion on another thread and died down to quickly to leave me satisfied, so I thought I would start a new thread about it. What are your thought on the process of increasingly linked economies that is taking place in the world today? From the other thread I got the impression that many on DU are skeptical of globalization, if they don't outright dislike it.

I don't understand this. Trade, particularly free trade, increases efficiency, creates job opportunities, and raises the standard of living for everyone involved. Bill Clinton understood this when he helped establish NAFTA. It also limits war; nations with strong economic ties almost never engage in military conflicts with each other. The economic damage such conflicts would create eliminates the benefits they would bring.

There also seemed to be a belief that one could not support globalization and progressive principles. I don't see why this is true. Globalization leads to increased living standards and decreased war, two very progressive goals.

Here is the original thread, if anyone is interested:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2843408
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Show us, please, how globilazation has helped the U.S.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 11:49 PM by Erika
Thanks.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sure
Globalization has given us new markets to sell and buy from, increased the diversity of products available to us, raised the living standard for both us and our trading partners, brought our governments closer together and taken our respective economies to new heights of production.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. The standard of living in America has gone down in the last 6 years
Except for the upper income. They have profited extremely but there has been no trickle down advantage.

How, again, does globalizatio help?
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
31. Got a source on that standard of living decline, Erika?
I am inclined to agree with you but this article says different:

Living standards aren't stagnating. Over any realistic period -- say a decade -- they've risen for almost everyone. From 1992 to 2002, ownership of microwave ovens by the poorest tenth of Americans went from 39 percent to 77 percent, reports one Census Bureau study. VCRs went from 22 percent to 56 percent, computers from 4 percent to 21 percent. Households, when adjusted for their size, uniformly have higher incomes. From 1995 to 2005, the median income of four-person households rose 10.5 percent to $69,605; for three-person households, the increase was 9.6 percent to $58,917. These are real gains, though modest.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/economic_inequality_threatens.html


I don't know how objective it is to count the number of toasters people have, but the median income figures are useful. You might find the rest of the article interesting, as it shows that most benefits of productivity gains have gone to the wealthy. Further, the above statistics might have been cherrypicked somewhat, as the preceeding paragraph in the article states,

Superficially, the news was not encouraging. Median household income of $46,326, though up slightly from 2004, was still below its record of $47,671 in 1999 (the median household is the one exactly in the middle). The poverty rate was essentially unchanged at 12.6 percent, well above its recent low of 11.3 percent in 2000 (the poverty rate is the share of people below the official "poverty line," about $20,000 in income for a family of four).


So the median income is lower than it was in 1999 but higher for four-person and three-person households than it was in 1995. Maybe the two-person or one-person households are the ones represented in the paragraph immediately above here, or maybe the different timespan contributed to the difference. I very much like to compare current results with those in 1999 or 2000 for obvious reasons.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
61. That sounds like a DLC position paper
or an article from The Economist, which admits that "free" trade doesn't have the desired effects but keeps pushing it anyway.
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Globalism doctrine
> free trade, increases efficiency, creates job opportunities, and raises the standard of living for everyone involved.

This is the claim of globalization advocates. The problem is, they don't make a very strong case, but seem to prefer instead just to keep repeating the claims. Their claims mostly amount to dogma, unsupported by facts -- the more you look into it, the worse it looks.

The way globalization works, in practice, is a way for rich countries to extract the maximum profit out of poor (aka "developing") countries. Over time, the poor countries have shifted their agriculture and other production toward cash crops and export goods, leaving them much less able to take care of their own needs. Meanwhile, to make that shift, they've incurred staggering debt from the IMF and World Bank. It goes on and on.

For many reasons, "Globaloney" is just not consistent with progressive values.

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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. The evidence does support the doctrine.
Compare the nations which embraced free trade and multi-national corporations after WWII with those that tried to keep them out. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore all embraced foreign industry and trade, and today all are rich developed nations. Then look at all the Latin American nations which embraced isolationism and attempted import substitution idustrialization. They are still struggling to repair the damage done by such policies, and despite having lands substantialy richer in resources then the Asian tigers they are significantly more impoverished.

I do agree that nations can get themselves into a world of trouble with the IMF. This is particularly bad in dictatorships which are willing to sell their nations short, or weak democracies inheriting their debt from former governments. Unfortunately this often does become a debt trap.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
62. Not true, simply not true
The East Asian success stories violated the Sacred Commandments of the Globalization Religion in significant ways:

1) They were highly protectionist

2) They didn't give foreign companies carte blanche to dictate to them but instead required significant concessions, such as technology transfers or training of local talent to take over managerial and R&D positions

3) They invested heavily in education, health care, and transportation infrastructure

4) They kept their agricultural sectors (well, Singapore doesn't have one, but the others do) free from foreign influence

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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. Yes it is.
1. Some, not all, became significantly protectionist. Japan comes to mind as the best example.

2. They were only able to do this after they had leverage to bargin with. Before their coporation became the juggernauts they are today, they didn't make such demands. How did they get where they are? Export driven policies allowing multi-nationals to make use of their cheap labor, which in turn allowed for #3.

3. This is my whole point, free trade allows governments to invest in their people. You can add domestic industry to the list, as much governmental effort went into creating favorable conditions for this. They were only able to do this because of the massive ecomonic expansion trade was creating.

4. I'll give you that one. Every nation has its sacred cows, Japans overpriced domestic rice being a good example.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. No, if a country values its national sovereignty, it can make any
damned demand on a corporation that it wants. Japan did so when it was still basically at a medieval level of development in the nineteenth century. It gave foreigners contracts to build railroads, bridges, factories, and other infrastructure (it had a lot of money lying around because sumptuary laws prevented its merchant class from spending their money on anything but reinvestment), but it demanded that they train Japanese to build and run these facilities and then go home.

The Asian tigers were lucky to have started their march to prosperity before the "Free" Trade Gospel was fully institutionalized.

You're not getting my point that the Asian Tigers never allowed the kind of "free" trade that is currently being foisted on Latin America and sub-Saharan Africa. Sure, they exported and even allowed some foreign companies to come in and take advantage of their cheap labor, but unlike, say, Honduras or Nigeria, they had protections for labor in place and the desire and permission to invest in their own country.

"Japan's overpriced domestic rice" is not the only example of agricultural protectionism. None of the Asian Tigers turned their agricultural sectors over to the production of cash crops.

Today's IMF restrictions expressly forbid the kind of self-protection that the Asian Tigers used and force countries to cut the kind of social spending that the Tigers used to train a knowledgeable and healthy workforce.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. Countries can make demands as long as corporations make $
As soon as this isn't the case, the country either must give in or lose the business. If Japan was able to get concessions, it is because the government understood this fact.

I'm curious about where you are getting you info on the IMF from. I'm not disputing it, I'd just like to read it. Personally, I put less blame on IMF policies and more on corrupt and inept governments in the developing world. Many such nations don't or won't understand the kind of responsiblilty that come with dealing in global economics, particularly when it involves aid or loans. Corruption also kills the ability of citizens to engage in business, as many nations have red tape which can take months or years to cut through. Understandably, these nations have great difficulty attracting foreign investment.

As for the agriculture subisidies, I don't agree with them. They are a major source of anger from the developing world, which rightly sees them as hypocrisy on the part of developed nations.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Have you seen "Life and Debt," the story of what the IMF did to Jamaica?
Do you read The Economist to see what kinds of policies the IMF actually imposes?

Until you have seen "Life and Debt," I don't think we have anything to talk about. I dislike discussing matters with people who insist that their theories MUST be true no matter what happens in the real world.

That's why I refer to "free" trade as a religion.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I'll try to check it out.
"That's why I refer to "free" trade as a religion."

:7 I think Mallard Filmore (yeah, I read it, sue me) said it best, "there are no true atheists, just a lot of unintentional religions." Despite this, rest assured I regularly read the Economist and am basing my argument on real world results as much as straight classroom economics.
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mindwalker_i Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Unequal standard of living
So the reason "globalization" is good for companies is that they can outsource jobs to places where labor is a lot cheaper. The most obvious problem is that if jobs go away from the U.S. then we consumers can't buy stuff from those companies. We've kept ahead by developing new things as old things go to other countries. We've been innovative. Now, it seems like innovation is dying and partly by choice - think about stem cells.

So if the standard of living smooths out over the world so people in China are better off while we're worse off - and it'll be a while before that is complete - then outsourcing and globalization won't be such a problem. This is the essence of a book called "Divided Planet" that I read for environmental history in college.

-mwalker
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Exactly our standard of living will decrease
while other countries will increase. In essence, the jobs, $, and opportunities have been taken from this country and outsourced.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
53. Countries versus workers versus the rich
The US is getting more wealthy while US workers are getting poorer, same in most other nations. In all cases it is the rich (the owners and investors of big corporations) that benefit.

There are more multi-billionaires now than ever before - but how does that affect your standard of living? Is the wealth trickling down much?
Even if the economy declines, it hardly affects the rich - just look at the Great Depression of the 1930's. They are just gaming the system to their own advantage.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. *
Trade, particularly free trade, increases efficiency, creates job opportunities, and raises the standard of living for everyone involved.

Right. This is why everyone involved is doing so well these days.

On the other hand, I hear the market in horseshit is going great guns.
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Singular73 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. Its an interesting topic.
If you look at the price of commodities, they really haven't gone up in the last 20 years or so.

T-shirts, Televisions, Cars, washing machines, etc.. are pretty much the same price they have always been.

Every "Walmart" in your neighborhood gives people a pay raise, as they can buy more for less.

The only people screwed are the ones that work at Walmart, or competing stores, or people that actually manufacture commodities..

For the average middle-class person, Walmart is wonderful, unfortunately.

Basically, if you can import slave-labor from another country, without having any real responsibility for it, its generally good for the native population, economically.


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Vexatious Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. NAFTA and other free trade agreements is the reason
why so many people from Mexico are coming in. There has always been a steady trickle coming in from the South but what we have here is a mass migration of desperate people. When you can buy American corn in Mexico City for a lot less then Mexican corn then somethings wrong and they lose their jobs, and ultimately head north. Also all those factories in Northern Mexico have gone to China were the labor is far cheaper. Right now the bleeding of American jobs is catastrophic. How on earth can you defend free trade. Is it just the fact that we can buy cheap crap in WalMart?
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. Globalization, as implemented, has allowed the very powerful to exploit
the very weak. On a level playing field, globalization is great. But it hasn't been a level playing field. A few very large multinational corporations started with a huge head start and they have used governments to ensure their positions were protected, and they've used that headstart to increase the gap between themselves and everyone else.

Just last week, a study came out that showed the gap between the wealthiest and poorest has increased. That's globalization at work.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think fair trade might be good
but we don't have that. The tax base is eroded now as companies register in the Cayman islands and operate worldwide. No manafacturing base seems to equal service jobs which pay much less. So far I am not impressed.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm hearing two different complaints:
Edited on Wed Sep-27-06 01:25 AM by 135th
First, that globalization by allowing the worlds rich nations the ability to rob the worlds poor ones, esentially increasing inequality

Second, that globalization is resulting in poor nations getting rich at the expense of American jobs and livelyhood, esentially increasing equality.

There is an element of truth in both claims, but they both miss the larger picture. Even if ineuqality has risen due to globalization (I'm not certian it can be traced back to this) the process still leads to increased living standards for all involved. Even the oft mentioned oppressed factory workers are benefiting from the process, otherwise they wouldn't be doing the jobs. I'd rather see the poor get access to higher paying jobs then not, even if most of the profits go to corporate HQ.

As to the second claim, understand that the jobs that we are losing could only have been saved with massive protectionism. This would do far greater damage the good. In all likelyhood, the jobs we lose were simply dragging the rest of us down with higher prices and/or inefficent production. The net gain from free trade far eclipses the loss in jobs it causes, especially considering the jobs we gain from producers requiring skilled labor in high tech sectors. With proper investment in education and temporary assistance programs the displacement caused by job loss can be minimalized, though we are often somewhat lacking in this area.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. ?
the process still leads to increased living standards for all involved.

Proof?

In all likelyhood, the jobs we loose were simply dragging the rest of us down with higher prices and/or inefficent production.

Nice theory and all, but what about the real world?
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Basic economics,
free trade allows nation to produce according to their compartive advantage and maxmize production. This in turn increases both public and private wealth and overall public good.

As to my jobs claim, look at the US steel industry. Remember Bush's steel tariffs? They were billed as protecting American jobs and preventing scary sounding things like dumping and predatory pricing. What was rarely mentioned was the tariff cost Americans billions and was just a cynical attempt to whore votes from the steel industry.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. economic theory != the real world
The question stands.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. The economics of allowing foreign corporations to operate
Edited on Wed Sep-27-06 04:10 AM by rman
in a poor nation under conditions favorable to the bottom line of the corporation, means the local population gets to work for that corporation for very low wages and poor benefits while local businesses can not compete with the low price of the foreign corporations' products. By far most of the wealth generated by this economic activity leaves the country in the form of profits for the foreign corporation.
In short: so-called "Free Trade" - in spite of it sounding like it's a good thing - is a scam.

my claims are backed up by evidence here:
Documentaries on the effects of "free trade"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2848518&mesg_id=2848653

and here:
NAFTA data dump
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2848518&mesg_id=2848652
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Please, please, please
Know the difference between the words "losing" and "loosing". You "lose" all credibility otherwise.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Cheerfully edited!
Thanks for the tip. The sad thing is that was the second time I did that today (I caught myself the first time). I have bad grammar, sometimes.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. You know what?
This sounds EXACTLY like a college classroom bullshit session about economic theory. It's kind of an amusing thing about economics in that there are many many different theoretical models that all look reasonable on paper, and are argued about ad nauseum in such an environment even though there's been a real world test of all of them going on just beyond that classroom door for years.

I'm not certain I want to take the time to go into depth about why most of your argument just doesn't work in the real world, mainly because it would take precious time and I really don't think you'd pay it any mind at all. You sure haven't seemed to consider any of the arguments made here, or in the prior thread, so why would I assume you'd start now?

I will say this though. Every single thing you said in the post immediately above was stated as if it were factual, when in fact it is mere supposition. Some of those suppositions are demonstrably wrong, while others simply lack any supporting evidence. It is not a compelling argument because it is based on falsehood and conjecture.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. I considered all the arguments,
and tried to respond to them as best I could. It takes time to get to everything, and somethimes someone else covers it first. As to the other thread, I'm not sure what you are getting at. I jumped in at the tail end of that debate, and answered every post directed at me. The conversation dried up before I was satisfied, so here we are now. If starting a thread about a topic doesn't show willingness to consider other peoples views, I'm not sure what would.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. "increased living standards for all involved" - not true
Trading Freedom: the secret life of the FTAA (Indymedia)
Indigenous struggles, working-class resistance, women vs. the FTAA, Your Biotech Future, media activism, the NAFTA Chapter 11 investor-state dispute settlement mechanism, and the ever-popular "state repression of dissent" (coming soon to to a town near you). Footage from Akwesasne, Chiapas, Quebec City, Sao Paulo, and Tijuana, plus the combined efforts of over 100 videographers, photographers, free radio outlaws, writers, editors, techs, and rabble-rousers make this the perfect vid for your local anti-FTAA event. With implementation of the accord only a few years away, time is running out.
http://frazer.rice.edu/~tish/index.html
http://frazer.rice.edu/~tish/video.html
http://frazer.rice.edu/~tish/video.mov
http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=764
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284511.html


Life and Debt
http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=125
Jamaica, land of sea, sand and sun... and a prime example of the complexities of economic globalization on the world's developing countries. With twenty-five years of "help" from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank intended to bring Third World nations such as Jamaica into the fold of free market economies, these restructuring" policies have crippled Jamaica's efforts towards self-reliant development while enriching the lenders. This scathing film is an unapologetic look at the "new world order" from the point of view of Jamaican workers and farmers, as well as government and policy officials.


A Place Called Chiapas
Zeitgeist Films
http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com/film.php?directoryname=placecalledchiapas
http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1912
In 1994, the Zapatista National Liberation Army, made up of impoverished Mayan Indians from the state of Chiapas, took over five towns and 500 ranches in southern Mexico. The government deployed its troops and at least 145 people died in the ensuing battle. Filmmaker Nettie Wild travelled to the country's jungle canyons to film the elusive and fragile life of this uprising.

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. That's Jeffrey Sachs's argument and I think he's wrong.
Polarization of wealth, both between LDNs/DNs and the West and withing all countries (both LDNs and the West) is EXTREMELY dangerous for society. Extreme polarizatio of wealth in the US is THE precipitating event for the great depression and I think there are obvious political and economic reasons why that's the case.

I'm with Joe Stiglitz and Amartya Sen on this issue, and I suggest people read Globalization and its Discontents, The Roaring Nineties, and Development as Freedom Development as Freedom alongside Sach's End of Poverty and decide for themselves if your argument makes sense.

Incidentally, re your second argument, prices in the US have not decreased as a result of globalization. The reduced labor costs aren't being passed on to consumers. Furthermore, read your Galbraith -- sharing the wealth creates with labor creates aggregate demand which results in a good economy.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. globalization is good for corporations . . . come to think of it . . .
globalization is the creation of corporations . . . along with certain powerful governments which corporations essentially control . . .

I believe Eisenhower called it the "military-industrial complex" . . .

THAT's who benefits from globalization . . .
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. perhaps our better-known pro-globalization DUers
can help you out here. Nederland, in particular, has some game. You should ask.
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
80. Pro-globalization DUer reporting for duty!
Globalization is a complex subject covering a variety of issues. Not just trade but also immigration, organisations such as the UN, the role of national sovereignty and so on.

I'm certainly pro free-trade, I'm pro free migration with it as well and I tend to favour multilateral solutions as opposed to unilateralism. So yes, I'm a pro-globalization DUer!

However, there are always going to be some things that get lumped in with this that cause anti-globalization types to disagree amongst themselves and pro-globalization types to disagree amongst themselves. I'm not a fan of TRIPS and I'm even less of a fan of the common agricultural policy for instance.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. NAFTA data dump - short version: it's bad

Immigration Flood Unleashed by NAFTA's Disastrous Impact on Mexican Economy
Published on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
by Roger Bybee and Carolyn Winter
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm

The recent ferment on immigration policy has been so narrow that it has excluded the real issue: family-sustaining wages for workers both north and south of the border. The role of the North American Free Trade Agreement and misnamed 'free trade' has been scarcely mentioned in the increasingly bitter debate over the fate of America's 11 to 12 million illegal aliens.

NAFTA was sold to the American public as the magic formula that would improve the American economy at the same time it would raise up the impoverished Mexican economy. The time has come to look at the failures of this type of trade agreement before we engage in more and lower the economic prospects of all workers affected.

While there has been some media coverage of NAFTA's ruinous impact on US industrial communities, there has been even less media attention paid to its catastrophic effects in Mexico:

* NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their 'death warrant.'
* NAFTA's service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.
* Wages along the Mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA, reported a Carnegie Endowment study. An over-supply of workers, combined with the crushing of union organizing drives as government policy, has resulted in sweatshop pay running sweatshops along the border where wages typically run 60 cents to $1 an hour.

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July 20, 2005 | Issue Brief #214
NAFTA's cautionary tale
Recent history suggests CAFTA could lead to further U.S. job displacement

by Robert E. Scott and David Ratner
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/ib214

The rise in the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico through 2004 has caused the displacement of production that supported 1,015,291 U.S. jobs since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was signed in 1993. Jobs were displaced in every state and major industry in the United States. Two thirds of those lost jobs were in manufacturing industries. The proposed Dominican Republic-Central American Free Trade Agreement (DR-CAFTA) duplicates the most important elements of NAFTA, and it will only worsen conditions for workers in the United States and throughout the hemisphere (Faux, Campbell, Salas, and Scott 2001). Since NAFTA took effect, the growth of exports supported approximately 1 million U.S. jobs, but the growth of imports displaced domestic production that would have supported 2 million jobs. Consequently, the growth of the U.S. trade deficit with Mexico and Canada caused a net decline in U.S. production that would have supported about 1 million U.S. jobs.

Before adopting an agreement such as DR-CAFTA, it is important to understand the following about NAFTA's effect on U.S. jobs:

* The 1 million job opportunities lost nationwide are distributed among all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Those affected most in terms of total jobs displaced include: California (-123,995), Texas (-72,257), Michigan (-63,148), New York (-51,582), Ohio (-49,886), Illinois ( -47,701), Pennsylvania ( -44,173), Florida (-39,987), Indiana (-35,157), North Carolina ( -34,150), and Georgia (-30,464) (see Appendix Table A-1).

* The 10 hardest-hit states, as a share of total state employment, are: Michigan (-63,148, -1.44%), Indiana (-35,157, -1.19%), Mississippi (-11,630, -1.03%), Tennessee (-25,588, -0.94%), Ohio (-49,886, -0.92%), Rhode Island (-4,482, -0.91%), Wisconsin (-25,403, -0.90%), Arkansas (-10,321, -0.89%), North Carolina (-34,150, -0.89%), and New Hampshire (-5,502, -0.87%) (see Appendix Table A-2).

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http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp147
November 17, 2003 | EPI Briefing Paper #147
The high price of 'free' trade
NAFTA's failure has cost the United States jobs across the nation

by Robert E. Scott

Since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was signed in 1993, the rise in the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico through 2002 has caused the displacement of production that supported 879,280 U.S. jobs. Most of those lost jobs were high-wage positions in manufacturing industries. The loss of these jobs is just the most visible tip of NAFTA's impact on the U.S. economy. In fact, NAFTA has also contributed to rising income inequality, suppressed real wages for production workers, weakened workers' collective bargaining powers and ability to organize unions, and reduced fringe benefits.

NAFTA is a free trade and investment agreement that provided investors with a unique set of guarantees designed to stimulate foreign direct investment and the movement of factories within the hemisphere, especially from the United States to Canada and Mexico. Furthermore, no protections were contained in the core of the agreement to maintain labor or environmental standards. As a result, NAFTA tilted the economic playing field in favor of investors, and against workers and the environment, resulting in a hemispheric "race to the bottom" in wages and environmental quality.

False promises

Proponents of new trade agreements that build on NAFTA, such as the proposed Free Trade Agreement of the Americas (FTAA), have frequently claimed that such deals create jobs and raise incomes in the United States. When the Senate recently approved President Bush's request for fast-track trade negotiating authority1 for an FTAA, Bush called the bill's passage a "historic moment" that would lead to the creation of more jobs and more sales of U.S. products abroad. Two weeks later at his economic forum in Texas, the president argued, "it is essential that we move aggressively , because trade means jobs. More trade means higher incomes for American workers."

The problem with these statements is that they misrepresent the real effects of trade on the U.S. economy: trade both creates and destroys jobs. Increases in U.S. exports tend to create jobs in this country, but increases in imports tend to reduce jobs because the imports displace goods that otherwise would have been made in the United States by domestic workers.

President Bush's statements—and similar remarks from others in his administration and from members of both major parties in Congress—are based only on the positive effects of exports, ignoring the negative effects of imports. Such arguments are an attempt to hide the costs of new trade deals, in order to boost the reported benefits. These are effectively the same tactics that led to the bankruptcies of Enron, WorldCom, and several other major corporations.

The impact on employment of any change in trade is determined by its effect on the trade balance, the difference between exports and imports. Ignoring imports and counting only exports is like balancing a checkbook by counting only deposits but not withdrawals. The many officials, policy analysts, and business leaders who ignore the negative effects of imports and talk only about the benefits of exports are engaging in false accounting.

NAFTA supporters frequently tout the benefits of exports while remaining silent on the effects of rapid import growth (Scott 2000). Former President George H.W. Bush, whose administration negotiated NAFTA, recently claimed that "two million NAFTA-related jobs have been created in the United States since 1993" (Bush 2002). But any evaluation of the impact of trade on the domestic economy must include the impact of both imports and exports. If the United States exports 1,000 cars to Mexico, many American workers are employed in their production. If, however, the United States imports 1,000 cars from Mexico rather than building them domestically, then a similar number of Americans who would have otherwise been employed in the auto industry will have to find other work.

Another critically important promise made by the promoters of NAFTA was that the United States would benefit because of increased exports to a large and growing consumer market in Mexico. This market, in turn, was to be based on an expansion of the middle class that, it was claimed, would grow rapidly due to the wealth created in Mexico by NAFTA. Thus, most U.S. exports were predicted to be consumer products destined for consumption in Mexico.

In fact, most U.S. exports to Mexico are parts and components that are shipped to Mexico and assembled into final products that are then returned to the United States. The number of products that Mexico assembles and exports—such as refrigerators, TVs, automobiles, and computers—has mushroomed under the NAFTA agreement. Many of these products are produced in the Maquiladora export processing zones in Mexico, where parts enter duty free and are re-exported to the United States in assembled products, with duties paid only on the value added in Mexico. The share of total U.S. exports to Mexico that is represented by Maquiladora imports has risen from 39% of U.S. exports in 1993 to 61% in 2002.2 The number of such plants increased from 2,114 in 1993 to 3,251 in 2002 (INEGI 2003a, 2003b).

Growing trade deficits and job losses

NAFTA's impact in the United States, however, has been often obscured by the "boom-and-bust" cycle that drove domestic consumption, investment, and speculation in the mid- and late 1990s. Between 1994 (when NAFTA was implemented) and 2000, total employment rose rapidly in the United States, causing overall unemployment to fall to record low levels. But unemployment began to rise early in 2001, and 2.4 million jobs were lost in the domestic economy between March 2001 and October 2003 (BLS 2003). These job losses have been primarily concentrated in the manufacturing sector, which has experienced a total decline of 2.4 million jobs since March 2001. As job growth has dried up in the economy, the underlying problems caused by U.S. trade deficits have become much more apparent, especially in manufacturing.

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http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199401--.htm
The Clinton Vision: Update
Noam Chomsky
Z Magazine, January, 1994

1. Clinton's Bottom Line

November 17 was a grand day in the career of Bill Clinton, the day when he proved that he is a man of firm principle, and that his "vision" -- the term has become a journalistic reflex -- has real substance. "President Emerges As a Tough Fighter," the New York Times announced on the front page the next day. Washington correspondent R.W. Apple wrote that Clinton had now silenced his detractors, who had scorned him for his apparent willingness to back down on everything he claimed to stand for:

"Mr. Clinton retreated early on Bosnia, on Haiti, on homosexuals in the military, on important elements of his economic plan ; he seemed ready to compromise on all but the most basic elements of his health-care reforms. Critics asked whether he had a bottom line on anything.

On NAFTA, he did, and that question won't be asked much for a while."1

In short, on unimportant matters, involving nothing more than millions of lives, Clinton is a "pragmatist," ready to retreat. But when it comes to responding to the calls of the big money, our hero showed that he has backbone after all.

The importance that the corporate world saw in the NAFTA issue was revealed with some clarity in the final stages. Usually, both the President and the media try to keep their class loyalties somewhat in the background. This time, all bars were down. Particularly striking was the bitter attack on labor for daring to interfere in the political process, understood to be the domain of business power in a well-ordered democracy.

The logic is familiar. When ordinary people enter the political arena, we have a "crisis of democracy"; things are OK, however, when the President is able to "govern the country with the cooperation of a relatively small number of Wall Street lawyers and bankers," as the Eaton Professor of the Science of Government at Harvard (Samuel Huntington) has explained, articulating the vision of democracy propounded by elite opinion for hundreds of years.

Accordingly, corporate lobbying was considered unworthy of mention -- a reasonable decision; one also doesn't report the air we breathe.

President Clinton denounced the "naked pressure" and "real roughshod, muscle-bound tactics" of organized labor, "the raw muscle, the sort of naked pressure that the labor forces have put on." They even resorted to "pleading...based on friendship" and "threatening...based on money and work in the campaign" when they approached their elected representatives. Never would a corporate lobbyist sink that low; those who believe otherwise merely reveal themselves to be "Marxists" or "conspiracy theorists," terms that are the cultivated equivalent of four-letter words or a punch in the nose, a last resort when you can't think of an argument. Front-page stories featured the President's call to Congress "to resist the hardball politics" of the "powerful labor interests." Business was reeling from the onslaught, unable to face the terror of the mob. At the outer limits of dissent, Anthony Lewis berated the "backward, unenlightened" labor movement for the "crude threatening tactics" it employed to influence Congress, motivated by "fear of change and fear of foreigners."

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http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/9303-nation-nafta.html
The Masters of Man
Noam Chomsky
The Nation, March 1993

Throughout history, Adam Smith observed, we find the workings of "the vile maxim of the masters of mankind": "All for ourselves, and nothing for other People." He had few illusions about the consequences. The invisible hand, he wrote, will destroy the possibility of a decent human existence "unless government takes pains to prevent" this outcome, as must be assured in "every improved and civilized society." It will destroy community, the environment and human values generally -- and even the masters themselves, which is why the business classes have regularly called for state intervention to protect them from market forces.

The masters of mankind in Smith's day were the "merchants and manufacturers," who were the "principal architects" of state policy, using their power to bring "dreadful misfortunes" to the vast realms they subjugated and to harm the people of England as well, though their own interests were "most peculiarly attended to." In our day the masters are, increasingly, the supranational corporations and financial institutions that dominate the world economy, including international trade -- a dubious term for a system in which some 40 percent of U.S. trade takes place within companies, centrally managed by the same highly visible hands that control planning, production and investment.

The World Bank reports that protectionist measures of the industrialized countries reduce national income in the South by about twice the amount of official aid to the region -- aid that is itself largely export promotion, most of it directed to richer sectors (less needy, but better consumers). In the past decade, most of the rich countries have increased protectionism, with the Reaganites often leading the way in the crusade against economic liberalism. These practices, along with the programs dictated by the International Monetary Fund and World Bank, have helped double the gap between rich and poor countries since 1960. Resource transfers from the poor to the rich amounted to more than $400 billion from 1982 to 1990, "the equivalent in today's dollars of some six Marshall Plans provided by the South to the North," observes Susan George of the Transnational Institute in Amsterdam; she notes also that commercial banks were protected by transfer of their bad debts to the public sector. As in the case of the S&Ls, and advanced industry generally, "free-market capitalism" is to be risk free for the masters, as fully as can be achieved.

The international class war is reflected in the United States, where real wages have fallen to the level of the mid-1960s. Wage stagnation, extending to the college-educated, changed to sharp decline in the mid-1980s, in part a consequence of the decline in "defense spending," our euphemism for the state industrial policy that allows "private enterprise" to feed at the public trough. More than 17 million workers were unemployed or underemployed by mid-1992, Economic Policy Institute economists Lawrence Mishel and Jared Bernstein report -- a rise of 8 million during the Bush years. Some 75 percent of that is permanent loss of jobs. Of the limited gain in total wealth in the eighties, "70% accrued to the top 1% of income earners, while the bottom lost absolutely," according to M.I.T. economist Rudiger Dornbusch.

Structures of governance have tended to coalesce around economic power. The process continues. In the London Financial Times, James Morgan describes the "de facto world government" that is taking shape in the "new imperial age": the I.M.F., World Bank, Group of 7 industrialized nations, General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and other institutions designed to serve the interests of transnational corporations, banks and investment firms.

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The Zapatista Uprising
excerpted from the book Profit Over People
by Noam Chomsky
Seven Stories Press, 1999
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/ProfitsOverPeople_Chom.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/ZapatistaPOP_Chom.html

The New Year's Day uprising of Indian peasants in Chiapas readily be understood in this general context. The uprising coincided with the enactment of NAFTA, which the Zapatista army called a "death sentence" for Indians, a gift to the rich that will deepen the divide between narrowly concentrated wealth and mass misery, and destroy what remains of the indigenous society.
The NAFTA connection is partly symbolic; the problems are far deeper. "We are the product of 500 years of struggle," the Zapatistas' declaration of war stated. The struggle today is "for work, land, housing, food, health care, education, independence, freedom, democracy, justice, and peace." "The real background," the vicar-general of the Chiapas diocese added, "is complete marginalization and poverty and the frustration of many years trying to improve the situation."
The Indian peasants are the most aggrieved victims of Mexican government policies. But their distress is widely shared. "Anyone who has the opportunity to be in contact with the millions of Mexicans who live in extreme poverty knows that we are living with a time bomb," Mexican columnist Pilar Valdes observed.
In the past decade of economic reform, the number of people living in extreme poverty in rural areas increased by almost a third. Half the total population lacks resources to meet basic needs, a dramatic increase since 1980. Following International Monetary Fund (IMF)-World Bank prescriptions, agricultural production was shifted to export and animal feeds, benefiting agribusiness, foreign consumers, and affluent sectors in Mexico while malnutrition became a major health problem, agricultural employment declined, productive lands were abandoned, and Mexico began to import massive amounts of food. Real wages in manufacturing fell sharply. Labor's share in gross domestic product, which had risen until the mid- I 970s, has since declined by well over a third. These are standard concomitants of neoliberal reforms. IMF studies show "a strong and consistent pattern of reduction of labor share of income" under the impact of its "stabilization programs" in Latin America, economist Manuel Pastor observes.

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http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/NAFTA@7/mx.html
April 2001 | EPI Briefing Paper
NAFTA AT SEVEN
Its impact on workers in all three nations

Jump to a specific report:

* Introduction
* NAFTA’s Hidden Costs: Trade agreement results in job losses, growing inequality, and wage suppression for the United States
* False Promise: Canada in the Free Trade Era
* Online supplement to the U.S. report: NAFTA's impact on the states

The impact of NAFTA on wages and incomes
in Mexico

by Carlos Salas, La Red de Investigadores y Sindicalistas Para Estudios Laborales (RISEL)

Mexico is much changed in the seven years since NAFTA was implemented in 1994. Although Mexico now has a large trade surplus with the U.S., Mexico has also developed a large and growing overall trade deficit with the rest of the world. In fact, Mexico’s net imports from the rest of the world now substantially exceed its net exports to the United States. Official unemployment levels in Mexico are lower now than before NAFTA, but this decline in the official rate simply reflects the absence of unemployment insurance in Mexico. In fact, underemployment and work in low-pay, low-productivity jobs (e.g., unpaid work in family enterprises) actually has grown rapidly since the early 1990s. Furthermore, the normal process of rural-to-urban migration that is typical of developing economies has reversed since the adoption of NAFTA. The rural share of the population increased slightly between 1991 and 1997, as living and working conditions in the cities deteriorated.

Between 1991 and 1998, the share of workers in salaried<1> jobs with benefits fell sharply in Mexico. The compensation of the remaining self-employed workers, who include unpaid family workers as well as small business owners, was well above those of the salaried sector in 1991. By 1998, the incomes of salaried workers had fallen 25%, while those of the self-employed had declined 40%. At that point, the average income of the self-employed was substantially lower than that of the salaried labor force. This reflects the growth of low-income employment such as street vending and unpaid family work (for example, in shops and restaurants). After seven years, NAFTA has not delivered the promised benefits to workers in Mexico, and few if any of the agreement’s stated goals has been attained.

Running hard but falling behind
Despite a quick recovery from the 1995 peso crisis and a peak 7% gross domestic product (GDP) growth rate in 2000 (Figure 2-A), NAFTA still has failed to help most workers in Mexico.

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http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1992/10/mm1092_10.html
Economics
The NAFTA Nightmare
by Bill Day

AMID A STORM OF PROTEST, the leaders of the United States , Mexico and Canada announced on August 12 the conclusion of negotiations over a free trade agreement encompassing the vastly different countries of North America. The Bush administration released a summary of the North American Free Trade Agreement , but declined to release the actual text until it is translated into legal language. The agreement faces perfunctory approval in the Mexican and Canadian legislatures, which are controlled by the same parties which hold those countriesÆ executive positions. In the United States, however, the agreement must be ratified by the Democratic controlled Congress, where it is sure to be the subject of heated debate.

While the administration and industry groups boast that NAFTA will create jobs and prosperity, unions, environmental groups and consumer advocates predict it could result in increased pollution, lost jobs, lower wages and contaminated food. Consumer advocate Ralph Nader says that NAFTA was created "of the Du Ponts, for the General Motors, and by the Exxons," benefitting multinational corporations at the expense of labor, health, safety and environmental standards in all three signatory countries.

"We oppose it," says Burnie Bond, a spokesperson for the AFL-CIO. "The agreement does not have adequate protection for labor rights, worker health and safety or the environment." The AFL-CIO estimates that if Congress approves NAFTA, 73 percent of U.S. workers will suffer annual wage losses of approximately $1,000 and 500,000 to 600,000 workers will lose their jobs to lower-paid Mexican workers over 10 years.

In sharp contrast, industry representatives express enthusiasm for the proposed agreement. Howard Lewis, a spokesperson for the National Association of Manufacturers (NAM), says, "From what we know about it, it appears to be an impressive agreement that will be beneficial to many U.S. companies."

Costing jobs

The central element in the congressional debate over NAFTA is likely to be its effect on employment. Critics of the agreement contend it will cost hundreds of thousands of U.S. jobs, as U.S. businesses shift production from the United States to low-wage Mexico. The United States Trade Representative (USTR) concedes that some U.S. workers will be displaced as a result of the agreement, but estimates that between 600,000 and one million new jobs will be created by exports to Mexico. The Washington, D.C.- based Economic Policy Institute (EPI), in a recent report authored by Jeff Faux and Thea Lee, estimates NAFTA will cost half a million U.S. jobs.

The authors further predict that NAFTA will encourage U.S. industry to move production to Mexico to take advantage of low wage rates and lax industry regulation. As a result, the report says, U.S. workers will lose jobs, or be forced to accept lower wages to compete with cheap Mexican labor. Faux and Lee cite 1990 Department of Labor statistics which list the hourly wage for manufacturing workers as $14.83 in the United States, $15.94 in Canada and $1.85 in Mexico.

"I think that this version of NAFTA will be very hard on working class people," Lee says. She predicts that U.S. workers in several types of industry will suffer: those in industries already moving to Mexico, such as automobiles and auto parts, consumer electronics and apparel, who will be subjected to both job and wage losses; workers employed at small- and medium-sized businesses that cannot relocate and will become unable to compete with corporations in Mexico; and workers in small service businesses, like restaurants, which will undergo hardship when large plants move out of their neighborhoods. Finally, Lee argues, growers of products currently protected by high tariffs, such as winter fruits and vegetables, cotton and peanuts, will suffer when the tariffs are removed by NAFTA.

Faux and Lee point out that blue-collar workers who lose their jobs are unlikely to gain access to the high-skill, high-wage jobs that might be created by increased exports to Mexico.

Lewis counters that U.S. labor must adjust to inevitable changes in the job market. "The era of the low-skill, high-pay job is over," he says, "and weÆd better adjust to it. ThatÆs not the way the competition is going at this point in the game." Lewis recommends that the way to "adjust" is not to regulate trade, but to invest in education and training.

Faux and Lee assert that CanadaÆs loss of 461,000 manufacturing jobs from June 1989 to October 1991 after adoption of the U.S.-Canada trade agreement is a portent of the likely outcome of the expanded free trade agreement with Mexico. But Malcolm McKechnie, press attache at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, attributes the loss of jobs to the recession, noting that both exports and the Canadian trade balance have increased since the agreement.

Critics of the agreement argue that corporate flight to Mexico will not benefit Mexico or Mexican workers, since corporations will be moving South precisely to take advantage of the countryÆs low wages, worker rights, safety and environmental standards. NAFTA-induced investments will replicate the record of the string of maquiladoras (foreign-owned plants in Mexico which export to the United States) on the U.S.-Mexican border, where "there is no floor on how low you push wages and no limit on how badly you abuse the environment."

"NAFTA is an extension of the maquiladora production system to the entire Mexican economy," Lee says. "The point of the maquiladora is to import parts from the United States, assemble them with Mexican labor and export them to the United States." According to Lee, because goods produced in the maquiladoras are sold in the United States, corporations have no incentive to pay a living wage. "Very few firms producing in the maquiladoras have any intention of selling their goods to the workers who work there. So it doesnÆt matter if you pay 60 cents an hour, because you know that person isnÆt going to buy the automobile or refrigerator or bra that youÆre producing. YouÆve ruptured the connection between production and consumption."

Bond agrees that NAFTA will only further the maltreatment of Mexican workers. "The agreement doesnÆt do anything to encourage Mexican wage levels to rise. ... If anything, investments of hundreds of millions of dollars along the border has lowered the standard of living," she says. "There is nothing in this agreement, such as adequate labor standards, to offset the tendency of American corporations to exploit Mexican workers."

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http://www.siliconv.com/trade/tradepapers/naftaafta.html
NAFTA 3 1/2 Years Afta
by Jim Callis & Valli Sharpe-Geisler

The Bush administration promised "jobs, jobs, jobs". The Clinton administration promised improved environmental and working standards. Now, after three and a half years of NAFTA the people of Canada, Mexico and the U.S. suffer from the broken promises, while the self-interested proponents of NAFTA, who invested millions in campaign contributions, reap the benefits.

NAFTA Overview:

The North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA, has been portrayed as a simple agreement to lower tariffs and increase trade between the U.S., Canada and Mexico. In fact, the main features of NAFTA establish a comprehensive set of rules that guarantees to multinational manufacturers that their plants in these countries will be protected and that they will have unlimited, free access to the U.S. retail markets for their products. NAFTA guarantees an investors private right of action against a country, state or locality. These rules are enforced by a multinational Secretariat with authority to impose large financial sanctions to force member countries to comply even when federal or state laws differ. It is ironic that this supernational regulation of U.S. commerce has been introduced in the name of "Free Trade". NAFTA has led to a sharply increased flight of manufacturing from the U.S. to Mexico where there is an abundance of capable workers who learn very rapidly and whose wages were only one-seventh of the wages of American workers doing the same job.


NAFTA Results:

The effects of NAFTA on the U.S. have been almost totally negative. The results include a significant loss in U.S. manufacturing capability and tax base. Manufacturers have also been able to negotiate give - backs in both direct wages and benefits from U.S. workers under the threat of expatriating their plant to Mexico. Today, a high school graduate with 5 years experience earns 27% less than his counterpart did in 1979. When experienced manufacturing workers making $17/hr loose their job, they typically are only able to get a service industry job at $11/hr. Since this isn't enough to keep a household afloat a second job is then needed. While in 1975 the compensation of U.S production workers was the highest in the world, today the average U.S. total compensation of about $17/hr is lower than that of Germany, Japan and others. The first major result of the so- called "Free Trade" movement has been to drive down wages even in a period in which productivity and corporate profits have risen greatly.


Summary of NAFTA's Impact on the United States

* MANUFACTURING LOSSES Since its passage an average of one manufacturing plant per day has closed due to NAFTA. * LOWER WAGES -- Since the FTA with Canada in 1988, the average real wages in all three NAFTA countries has declined.

* LOST U.S. JOBS: As of February 19, 1997, the Labor Department has certified that 109,384 workers have qualified for assistance under the one narrow NAFTA unemployment program, NAFTA-TAA. Total NAFTA job loss is estimated at over 600,000.

* FOOD SAFETY STANDARDS: In theory the US could be fined for enforcing our own food safety federal law, if in direct conflict with NAFTA's rules. After about 150 Michigan school children come down with symptoms of the hepatitis A mild liver infection from Mexican-grown strawberries, the impact of not having the freedom to set and enforce our own food safety standard became obvious.

* MERCHANDISE TRADE DEFICIT: The U.S. Bureau of the Census published trade figures* show the combined projected 1996 Canada/Mexico trade deficit to be $41 billion. Under NAFTA, a 1993 $1.7 billion trade surplus with Mexico turned into a massive trade deficit, while at the same time Japan and the European Union have maintained a trade surplus with Mexico.

* PESO BAILOUT: When the strains associated with NAFTA resulted in the collapse in the exchange value of the peso, this rate went to 1/10th of the wages of their U.S. counterparts.

* ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION to the U.S. from Mexico has soared since NAFTA. In 1994 the Border Patrol reported an increase of 30% in illegal entry activity. In 1995 many border areas reported an additional 30% in illegal entries. The principal cause of the increase is the economic dislocations in Mexico due to NAFTA.

* ENVIRONMENTAL: Dramatically worse environmental conditions along the U.S.-Mexico border where recent statistics show the number of children born with birth defects is at 3 times the national average.

* TRUCKING: Over-weighted and poorly maintained trucks make our highways less safe.

* DRUGS: Mexico is now regarded as the drug capital of the Western world. Many of the companies privatized by Salinas were purchased by Mexican drug lords. Mexican gangs now control the cocaine trade and also produce and distribute to the U.S. the methamphetamines which are replacing cocaine in many American areas.


U-Turn Exports:

The NAFTA Lobby points to the strong increase in goods exported to Mexico as proof of the benefits of NAFTA to the U.S. The facts are that only 7% of the goods imported by Mexico in 1995 were consumer goods purchased by Mexicans.These were more than 20% below the pre-NAFTA levels. In fact, 81% of all Mexican 1995 imports were "intermediate goods" the bulk of which were exported after further processing. The balance of Mexican imports were capital goods being used to expand Mexican production capability. These of course will lead to further trade losses in future years. Thus the surge in exports to Mexico are not the beneficial consumer sales the NAFTA Lobby promised, but rather the flow of "U-Turn" parts and plant equipment which was formerly the substance of U.S. based manufacturing. That is, the great export surge represents not an increased in our cash sales, but a loss of U.S. jobs and manufacturing capability. We have a phrase describing this type of surge in exports; ..... " A GIANT SUCKING SOUND ".


NAFTA and Mexico:

While the effects of NAFTA on the United States seem drastic, the effects on Mexico have actually been much more severe. The strains placed on Mexico's monetary system by the need to borrow money for NAFTA's industrial expansion and the political necessity to maintain the illusion of a bustling Mexican economy prior to the GATT vote in the U.S. Congress led to the peso debacle. The results have been devastating to the Mexican people.


Summary of NAFTA's Impact on Mexico

* ECONOMIC DEPRESSION: Since NAFTA, Mexico has fallen into its worst depression since the 1930s. Domestic business loans have prohibitive interests rates exceeding 50% in many cases.

* UNEMPLOYMENT: Since NAFTA, Mexican unemployment has grown by two million.

* BUSINESS FAILURES: Over 28,000 Mexican business have failed since NAFTA.

* LOWER WAGES: The real wages of Mexican workers have fallen by over 1/3 since the passage of NAFTA.

* EXTREME POVERTY: The number of Mexicans considered to be extremely poor has increased from 31% in 1993 to 50% in 1996.

* AGRICULTURE: The huge imports of grains from the U.S. and Canada have driven close to a million Mexican farmers from their lands. NAFTA's passage triggered the revolt in Chiapas.

* EXTERNAL DEBT: The total external debt of Mexico, which must be repaid in hard currencies, has grown from $163 Billion to over $175 Billion in spite of harsh economic measures. Independent economists in both Mexico and other countries believe that Mexico will be forced to "restructure" this debt with at least partial default.

* BORDER REGION POLLUTION: The pollution of the Border region produced by the growth in the number of maquiladora factories spawned by NAFTA has become dangerously worse. The incidence of birth defects and polluted water borne diseases such as dysentery, cholera and hepatitis is the highest in North America.


Summary of NAFTA's Impact on Mexico

During the 1992 election, Clinton pledged to implement NAFTA only after amending the agreement to ensure the protection of the environment and labor standards. However, these were implemented in the form of sham Secretariats which had no enforcement powers and whose objectives are routinely ignored by both corporations and government officials. Clinton's assurances to the contrary, the Maquiladoras continue to be supplied with a labor force which averages less in wages than their counterparts in domestic Mexican factories and who are prevented from joining independent unions.

The NADBank was touted as the means of providing leveraged funding for several of the $20 billions the environmentalists estimated were required to bring water and air quality to minimum health standards in the Border region. While originally adopted as a means of bartering for the votes of Hispanic and environmentalist legislators, the NADbank was then touted as the key mechanism for funding a desparately needed border cleanup that never happened. In fact not until the specter of the 1997 Congressional votes approached did NADbank make any loans at all.

April Fools Day Announcement NO Joke:

In April about 150 Michigan schoolchildren come down with symptoms of the hepatitis A mild liver infection. Officials said that schoolchildren in six states may have been exposed after being served Mexican-grown berries believed tainted with the virus. A food processor in San Diego bought strawberries from Mexico and sold them to the school districts.

Federal law prohibits any school district from buying any food not produced in the U.S. The interesting thing is that this law is in direct conflict with NAFTA's rules. In theory the US could be fined for enforcing our own food safety federal law.

Who are the beneficiaries of NAFTA?:

The most notable are the multinational corporations of all three NAFTA countries whose profits and stock values have soared while the cross border production has cut costs. These members of the U.S. Business Roundtable were the same multi-national corporations who formed USA*NAFTA who, working with the group of Mexican corporations called COECE, were the main business groups funding the NAFTA lobbying effort.

The benefits of NAFTA are not limited to North American companies. The number of Maquiladoras owned by Asian companies has tripled since the passage of NAFTA. Thus Mexico, while having no domestic TV industry, has become the world's largest exporter of TV sets, courtesy of the Japanese plants many of which are centered near Tijuana.

Conclusions:

The problems which NAFTA has inflicted on the people of both the United States and Mexico are severe and traceable to basic flaws in the agreement itself. The major flaws involve the guarantees protecting multinational plant operators (including "National Treatment") in a Mexico in which wages are controlled by government "Pacts" to levels far below those of U.S. workers. Maquiladora wages as low as $5 per day are rationalized as "necessary" to prevent manufacturing flight to even lower wage Central America countries and to control inflation. This in turn helps to drag down U.S. wages and further accelerates the transfer of U.S. plants to Mexico where the number of workers in all Maquiladoras now exceeds one million. We must resolve not to form the close economic associations (of the type that are in NAFTA) with other countries until the labor standards of those countries have been raised. Our trade policy should be aimed at raising the labor standards of our trading partners, not degrading our own. In the formation of the European Union, strict requirements for comparable standards for new members were imposed. These included a prescription that new members must first achieve a GDP per capita equal to at least half that of the average of the existing members. This and similar conditions on infrastructure meant that the entry of countries such as Spain and Greece was delayed for more than a decade while the requirements were met. In the end, the goal of our trade policy must be to improve the condition of all of the people, not to drag our labor standards down in a "race to the bottom". If this means that we must put additional trade constraints on imports from other low wage countries until they too raise their labor standards, then that is our indicated course.

The Clinton Adminstration gave Americans their assurances that NAFTA would include multinational Secretariats which provided for the "upward harmonization" of Labor and Environmental standards of the member countries. In addition, the NADBank was touted as providing funding for the critically needed cleanup of the poisoned Border water systems. All three of these promises have been revealed as transparent shams. "Dirty" U.S. industries charged with toxic waste violations in the U.S.have simply fled to Mexico where the enforcement of these regulations was sporadic or non-existent. NADBank provided no funding at all for badly needed water treatment projects through the first two years of its existence. The Labor Secretariat dismissed two clear cases of Maquiladora owners violating labor standards by claiming it had no jurisdiction. An unmistakable signal that they would do nothing to relieve the suppression of labor standards in Mexico.

It is no longer possible to believe in promises to correct the serious failings of NAFTA after the people's representatives have approved them. We must demand that the corrections be made before the FTAs are approved. At a minimum we should demand that no further extensions of NAFTA to new regions are approved until the flaws which have produced such disastrous consequences are proven to have been fixed.

Stop "Fast Track"! Don't expand NAFTA, Fix it! (Click here to see Action Plan)
http://www2.siliconv.com/siliconv/trade/actionplan.html


========

AlterNet
Blame NAFTA
By David Morris, AlterNet
Posted on April 13, 2006, Printed on May 28, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/34768/

The debate about illegal immigration rarely mentions NAFTA. That's regrettable, since the flood of undocumented Mexicans in 2006 empirically challenges the economic philosophy that guided NAFTA's design.

The slogan of those who championed a North American Free Trade Agreement was, "Trade, not aid." NAFTA would solve our problems, they insisted, with little or no transfer of funds from richer Canadians and Americans to poorer Mexicans. By raising Mexican living standards and wage levels, Attorney General Janet Reno predicted NAFTA would reduce illegal immigration by up to two-thirds in six years. "NAFTA is our best hope for reducing illegal migration in the long haul," Reno declared in 1994. "If it fails, effective immigration control will become impossible."

Well, NAFTA succeeded, at least on its own terms. As Jaime Serra Puche, Mexico's former trade minister and chief NAFTA negotiator maintained in 2004, "When you look at NAFTA in terms of what NAFTA was made for, which were trade flows, investment flows, and in general technological transfer and so on, you can say that NAFTA has been a successful enterprise."

Trade volume has soared, from about 30 percent of Mexico's Gross Domestic Product in 1990, to about 55 percent in 2005. Foreign investment has increased by over 225 percent. Yes. When you look at NAFTA in terms of what NAFTA was intended to do, based on what those who wrote it said it was intended to do, it has been a smashing success.

At this point bringing up an old medical adage might be appropriate: "The surgery was successful, but the patient died." NAFTA achieved its intended goals. But the flood of illegal immigration is up, and the standard of living of the average Mexican is down.

Real wages for most Mexicans are lower than when NAFTA took effect. And Mexican wages are diverging from, rather than converging with U.S. wages, despite the fact that Mexican worker productivity has increased dramatically. From 1993 to 2003, worker productivity rose by 60 percent. In the same period, real wages declined by 5 percent.

As NAFTA intended, Mexico has become an export-dependent economy. But this has not benefited most Mexicans. Sandra Polaski of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace points out that Mexican manufacturing is increasingly based on a production model in which component parts are imported, then processed or assembled and then reexported. In the maquiladora sector, which accounts for most exports, 97 percent of components are imported; only 3 percent are produced in Mexico. The spillover effect of such operations on the broader economy is very limited.

Ironically, one could argue that illegal migration is the only thing saving Mexico from the ravages of NAFTA and preventing it from collapsing into economic and social chaos.

Illegal migration serves as an important safety valve. In the past 10 years, Mexico's working age population increased by a little over 1 million per year, but the number of jobs expanded by only half as much. The annual exodus of 500,000 to 1 million Mexicans keeps unemployment to at least manageable levels.

Migration serves another even more important salutary function: national financial safety net. In 2005, Mexicans in the United States remitted some $20 billion home, about 3 percent of Mexico's national income. Remittances now exceed tourism, oil and the maquiladoras as the country's top single source of foreign exchange.

NAFTA boasted that trade, not aid, would boost the lot of Mexico and Mexicans. But the only thing that has kept the wolf from Mexico's door is aid from Mexicans living in the United States, not trade.

It didn't have to be this way. The European Union approached economic integration from a very different philosophical orientation and has produced dramatically different results. "The EU realized from the beginning that you can't have a community unless you lift the poorest up," notes Robert Pastor, director of the Center for North American Studies at American University in Washington and President Jimmy Carter's former national security advisor.

Europeans realized that the flow of migrants increases when the income gap between countries widens. As it moved toward a common market, the European Union invested hundred of billions of dollars in its poorer countries to improve their economies, reduce intra-European tensions between farmers and workers, and decrease internal migration. This massive investment enabled the EU's four poorest members -- Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain -- to boost their per capita GDP from 65 percent of the overall EU average in l986 to 78 percent in l999 and even higher today.

Raul Hinojosa, director of the North American Immigration and Development Center at the University of California, Los Angeles, instructively notes that 40 years ago Mexico and Spain were at the same economic level. He estimates the EU's special funds added 2 percent to Spain's annual GDP growth.

Unlike Americans, Europeans knew that both trade and aid are needed to make economic integration work. I would add only one further ingredient to this recipe for success: internally generated development. Sustainable economic development comes from within, from expanding internal markets and internal production that can satisfy those markets. Sustainable economic development comes from strengthening, not weakening, local and regional trade networks. And this in turn depends on strengthening and not weakening, local and regional social networks. People don't leave their communities, their friends, their families and their cultures because they want to. They leave when they have to.

NAFTA's designers promised it would keep Mexicans at home. Yet its very objectives undermined that possibility. Now leaders in all three countries are trying to pick up the pieces. One hopes they will use this opportunity to revisit their original premise and model as well.

David Morris is co-founder and vice president of the Institute for Local Self Reliance in Minneapolis, Minn., and director of its New Rules project.
© 2006 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/34768/
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. If thats the short version, I'm terrified...
...of the long version. 56k and all. Anyway.

Without going in to too long a response, here is what I think. A large complaint found in those articles was that the Mexican, and to a lesser extent the American, lower and middle classes were taking the brunt of NAFTA's downsides. As a result they face lower wages, fewer jobs, and regional displacement.

Now lets look at the upside. The benefits of NAFTA, as reported by the Office of the United Stated Trade Representative (hardly a neutral source on this issue, but then again, neither is Noam Chomsky) are massive rises in trade, productivity, and prosperity for all three nations. The specifics can be found here:

http://www.ustr.gov/Document_Library/Fact_Sheets/2004/NAFTA_A_Decade_of_Success.html

Assuming both are true, the massive economic upswing NAFTA has created should allow the governments involved to reinvest in their populations and mitigate the troubles NAFTA causes. If they are not doing so then the governments are at fault for not fulfilling their responsibilities to their people. The free trade process is separate from this failure in social spending, and the evidence says it has produced an overall rise in public good. This leads back to my original point that globalization and progressive government are not mutually exclusive issues. The opposite should be true, as the right government should be able to use the gains of globalization to raise its peoples standard of living.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Where does it end?
Is there a point in time where we'll be able to say we've progressed enough? If there is no end to it, wouldn't the ultimate in progress be the end of death? Talk about a standard of living. Where else can endless growth take you? We're living artificially longer, healthier lives in the developed countries. Who says we have to die?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. No massive rise in prosperity for the most of the workers,
(who do make up the majority of any population).

The increase in trade is due to foreign corporations selling cheaply produced products, from which those corporations benefit. Increased productivity is another way of saying increased profits for the corporation - it's due to poor wages and poor benefits for the workers (=low cost for the corporation).

Free Trade Agreements -do not allow- governments to reinvest in their populations; cuts of social spending are among the conditions of these trade agreements. Ie in Jamaica the government is forced by the IMF to ask huge interests on any money lend to local farmers - the reasoning behind it is that the money the government is lending, was lend to the government by the IMF, so the IMF gets to set the conditions for those loans (see the documentary "Life and Debt"). In Argentina the IMF demanded ever deeper cuts on social spending supposedly so that Argentina could pay off its debts to the IMF. The result: a totally wrecked economy and the workers lost their savings (see Greg Palast's book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy"). Things have improved since Venezuela bought a significant part of Argentina's debt.
So, in fact (lack of) social spending in poor nations is very much connected to so-called free trade.

There's a huge discrepancy between what should be and what is - and it's by design. It's not coincidence that the strongest proponents of 'free trade' are the same who benefit from it: the big corporations.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
63. Talk about trying to have it both ways!
A large complaint found in those articles was that the Mexican, and to a lesser extent the American, lower and middle classes were taking the brunt of NAFTA's downsides. As a result they face lower wages, fewer jobs, and regional displacement.

and

The benefits of NAFTA, as reported by the Office of the United Stated Trade Representative (hardly a neutral source on this issue, but then again, neither is Noam Chomsky) are massive rises in trade, productivity, and prosperity for all three nations.

Yeah, whatever.

Assuming both are true, the massive economic upswing NAFTA has created should allow the governments involved to reinvest in their populations and mitigate the troubles NAFTA causes.

Obviously, you've been reading The Economist, whose line may be summarized as "'Free' trade is the cure for whatever ails you, and yes, it has problems, but it would work really well if we didn't have to deal with the imperfections of actual corporations and countries."
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
79. Thanks for gathering all this NAFTA crap, this reply is simply for future
reference the next time I have the energy to argue with these corporate whores, that push these lies to protect their own interests.

Too bad we can't recommend a reply. :hi:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. Had you been around here longer,
you'de have known we've heard it all before.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. I'm sure you have,
but someone else having an argument a year ago doesn't satisfy my desire for discussion today.:)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Fair enough,
i'd just like to point out that i am not the only one who has heard it all before. You're sure to get plenty of discussion.

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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
26. Having lived in the Philippines for four years in the 1970's...
I have often wondered what Americans are willing to sacrifice in order for the countries in the Third World to escape from the poverty from which their people suffer. Back in those days the US mostly sent foreign aid (not much compared to other developed countries) to the third world, but that was usually stolen by corrupt dictators and their cronies. Thus our consciences were somewhat relieved, while doing nothing to threaten our global economic position.

The real problem is how to promote economic growth in a place like the Philippines without taking advantage of the only competitive advantage that the country has which is the low level of wages - which is why they are poor in the first place. I have read elsewhere that it would be fine for American businesses to relocate to poor countries, as long as they pay American level wages and benefits. In my experience that would mean that no American businesses locate in poor countries. Why would you put up with bad infrastructure and corruption to build a factory in Manila when you could have put it in Kansas City? If such a factory did appear in Manila, paying 10 times the local wage rate, there would be a sudden shortage of doctors and other professionals in the city, since they could double or triple their income by working in the factory.

To the extent that countries such as the Philippines, China, India do develop, their factories, call centers and other businesses are going to compete with ours, either in their markets or in ours. That increased competition will put pressure on American companies to lower wages, reduce expansion, etc.

Most of us realize that policies of the US government, IMF, World Bank, etc. often do not genuinely promote development in the Third World. My question is more philosophical.

What sacrifices, or limits to our own well-being, are Americans willing to endure, other than sending the occasional foreign aid check, to reduce poverty in the Third World? (I realize that the answer from many will be "Nothing, we have to worry about Americans first.")
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Why would you put a factory in the Phillpines if you had to pay fair wages
?

In order to satisfy the consumer demand in the Phillipines created by paying fair wages in the Philippines. It shouldn't be a zero sum gain. You should be able to have the factory in the US AND the factory in the Philippines and have everyone getting fair wages.

Globalization has been too much about reducing company costs without reducing company profits and without passing the savings on to consumers. Businesses move to cheap labor locastions and keep charging the same for their products, without caring about creating aggregate demand in the countries where they are exploiting labor and while expecting consumers in the US to continue to finance consumption with debt while their wages drop. All that means more money for CEOs and other corporate insiders which they use to buy off Congress and the White House in order to protect them from having to behave rationally and for the benefit of society.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. I agree that you "should" be able to do that.
"You should be able to have the factory in the US AND the factory in the Philippines and have everyone getting fair wages." But in the real world, if Toyota has the choice of building another factory in the United States and paying UAW wages (or at least wages high enough to keep their workers from turning to the UAW, they hope) or building that factory in the Philippines and paying UAW wages, guess which one they are going to choose. Why build in the Philippines with its poor infrastructure and rampant corruption and long distances from markets?

Is that good for the US and American workers? You bet! It would be even better if we would insist that foreign corporations pay even higher wages in the developing world than they do in the US, so that they will all want to locate here and not in poor countries.

Most foreign corporations in the Philippines pay very well by local standards, though not, of course, by Western standards. If I am working at Walmart here in my local community, and a Martian car manufacturer wants to set up a factory here paying higher wages than anything else I can find, I don't want someone else on Mars stopping them from doing so, because they are not paying Martian wage levels (whatever those might be.) As farcical as my Martian example may be, Western life styles and pay levels seem as unreachable in the Third World as Martian pay scales might seem.

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. The problem is that those jobs don't pay well relative to the value of the
work performed.

The Philippines should have a government like the US had with FDR which believes that polarization of wealth is wrong and destabilizing and they should legislate as FDR did to encourage employers to share more of the wealth they realized with the people who create that wealth with their labor.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Believe me the workers in the Philippines know that...
the "jobs there don't pay well relative to the value of the work performed."

Could the Philippines have a better government that cared more about sharing the wealth that people create with their labor, you bet they could. (Of course, as an American, I have a hard time throwing the first stone on the whole compassionate government thing.) An even if they did get blessed with such a government, I don't see why Toyota (not to just pick on them) would want to build a factory there and pay UAW-like wages, given all the baggage that goes with running a business in a Third World country, despite what the Philippines government might want them to do.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. To repeat my point from above:
they would build a factory in the Philippines in order to satisfy the demand for their products IN THE PHILIPPINES.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. A country is not an economic island.
Is it alright for Venezuela to sell oil to the US should they just drill enough for their domestic needs? Or for the US to sell soy beans to Japan or 747's all over the world, but not for the Philippines to export cars? Should each country have to drill for its own oil, grow its owns soy beans, build its own passenger jets?

What if there is no oil in your country? Should you go without? If it is too cold in Sweden, should they not eat soy beans, bananas, or whatever?

Could the US survive better than most countries without foreign trade? Not without a lot of pain, but sure, we could survive. We are a huge country with diverse climates and resources. For the rest of the world it only makes sense to trade what you have or make in abundance for those things that you don't have or make. France does not have oil, but makes a pretty good bottle of wine. Japan has no oil and not much in terms of other natural resources. They would be doomed if they could not export the products that their people produce.

Having lived in the Third World, this idea that each country's economy should be isolated from the rest of the world, doesn't work. If the Philippines sells lumber or rice or coconuts to Japan, shouldn't they get cars or computers or something in return? Should Nigeria not export oil and import food? If they can't grow enough food for their population, let it die off to the point where they match the domestic food supply?

None of this is to say that we shouldn't push for good working conditions, environmental legislation, etc in the Philippines; just that we shouldn't begrudge them the occasional car factory.

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. The entire project in Venezuela right now is to build up aggregate demand
in Venezuela by using oil profits to build infrastructure. They increased the minimum wage significantly in Venezuela too.

Where do the profits from selling products made in the Philippines go?
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. You obviously know more about what is going on in Venezuela...
than I do. To the extent that their oil income is being used to build up the domestic economy and infrastructure, I commend them. If they raise and enforce (it is often not enforced in the Philippines) a higher minimum wage law that is fantastic.

Unfortunately for Filipinos, their government is more typical of the Third World in that it is run primarily by the same powerful interests that control the economy. In light of that my guess is that most of the profits go to the powerful economic interests there.

Venezuela can export its oil in order to build up its economy and infrastructure, because it has an advantage over many other countries. It has oil. If the Philippines only competitive advantage is its cheap labor, and I can't think of any other advantage that they have, should they be allowed to export cars if they can get Toyota (or Mercedes or GM) to build a car factory there?

I realize that from our prospective in the US, importing oil is not a threat since we need it and don't produce enough for our own consumption. From our point of view, importing cars, on the other hand, is seen as threatening domestic producers and workers. As an American I see the rationality in that, but I can also see that many in the Third World will see a certain amount of hypocrisy in where we draw the line on which countries and export their competitive advantage and which can't.

If your last question was meant to imply that we shouldn't care about poverty in the Philippines because their government stinks, I must differ. Maybe we should care more when they have both poverty and a stinky government, but certainly not less.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #60
90. The Philippines' competitive advanatage isn't "cheap labor", it's "labor"
My last question was definitely not to imply that we shouldn't care about poverty. It's the opposite. It's to point out that labor is valuable, and that in the Phillipines, workers are not getting a very big percentage of the value of the value they create with their labor, and that's not good.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. My father spent some time in the Philippines too
He was offshore in a submarine during WWII.

Much of the discussion in this thread is from the perspective of developing countries. For most of them, globalization is a good deal in the long run because it has the potential to equalize standards of living worldwide.

For the same reason, it is bad for most Americans. You are fully aware of this truth; otherwise you would not have posed your philosophical question, which I thought was well presented. I'm not going to go for the all-or-nothing scenario you have offered, but you can count me as one of those who want to put Americans first.

Globalization is the Libertarian's dream - economic freedom for corporations with little of no governmental control or accountability. Take pollution, for example. In the USA we still have some controls, despite Junior's best efforts, on how much factories are allowed to pollute. These precautions have costs, which are included in the prices of manufactured goods.

But by moving a factory to another country where there are little or no controls on pollution - China, for one - you can avoid a cost of production. If all other factors were neutral, the USA would have to eliminate its pollution controls in order to be competitive. You could imagine some sort of treaty with China to require pollution controls there, but that is not realistic. And even if it were achieved, multinational conglomerates would just find another country where they were free to pollute. This type of regulation-free environment is a 'comparative advantage' in the world of Economics 101, as mentioned upthread.

This concept has broad application. Taxation and wages come quickly to mind.

Globalization has the potential of equalizing standards of living, as I have said. But this does not apply only to wages. In the scheme of things, the lowest cost of producing goods and services trumps everything else. Benefits like employee health care and pensions would have to be abandoned. If you think about it, we're already headed down that path, and repukes are doing their best to gut government-sponsored programs like Social Security.

This reminds me of something my father-in-law tells about, when he was a young coal miner. He said that in those days (before the John L. Lewis UMWA) if conditions in the mine looked questionable they would send in a man to check it out. They used mules then to pull wagons back and forth in the mine, but that miner was not allowed to take a mule when he went in to see if it was safe. The mine owner told my father-in-law that this was because if he lost a mule he had to buy another. If he lost a miner all he had to do was hire someone else.

Is this the way you want it to be? I don't, and I'm not in favor of sacrificing Americans' standards of living in favor of a future like that.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. It also strongly depends on the position of the developing nations...
South Korea, Taiwan and India come to mind for nations that actually came into Globalization from a strong economic and political position. Problem is that they seem exceptions to the rule, look at Mexico or Sub-Saharan Africa for the standard practices of globalization. Mexico is a classic example of failure, since NAFTA has been ratified, the average wage in Mexico has been decreasing, the Middle Class are slowly disappearing, and illegal immigration has increased by over 10%. And now, they have an outsourcing problem too!

Part of the problem is that developing nations usually suffer from crushing debt, unstable/corrupt governments, or a combination of the two. In cases like this, they are usually given a loan with strings attached, such as removing regulations on labor, enviromental laws, etc. AND also must accept free trade as a consequence, this usually leads to horrendious labor and human right abuses.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
65. See my post #62
South Korea actually was NOT rich to begin with. In the early 1960s, it was classed with the Philippines as an "underdeveloped country," and it received Peace Corps volunteers. Both were governed by dictatorships.

Now South Korea is an industrial power and the Philippines are still poor, in spite of being a prime plantation for Dole and other American agribusiness countries.

The difference?

South Korea's dictator was a Confucian, who believed that a ruler, however, harsh, should look after the welfare of his people like a strict but kind-hearted father. As such, he invested heavily in schools, health care, and infrastructure.

We all know what Ferdinand Marcos did.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
85. I wasn't talking about rich...
More like what you stated, however, another thing to consider is this, most of the most successful nations under globalization are nations that, up till recently, were extremely protectionist. India, as an example, is a nation that was borderline Communist until recently, and now opened themselves up to foriegn investment, NOT necessarily buyouts, though that has happened as well(look up Indian Agriculture). Both Taiwan and South Korea, along with Japan, all behaved similarly until relatively recently(1980s or so).
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Fantastic post.
Globalization has the potential of equalizing standards of living". Japan and South Korea have gone from war-ravaged countries to first rate economies with high standards of living. Japan used to pollute a lot, I remember the stories about it in the fifties and sixties, but now their population demands stricter pollution controls. China and India are now following similar paths and, at least in the case of China, have major pollution problems.

"I'm not going to go for the all-or-nothing scenario you have offered, but you can count me as one of those who want to put Americans first." My writing is frequently not very eloquent. I did not mean to offer an all-or-nothing scenario. My question should have been "Are Americans willing to sacrifice any of their living standard (1%, 5%, 10%) if it would support quicker development in poor countries and lead to an eventual equalizing of living standards?"

If the answer to that is "No," I respect that. Most people everywhere care more about the people in their own country. We can continue our efforts to maintain and grow our standard of living and, hopefully, come up with a strategy to allow the Third World to grow their living standards even faster.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Don't be so hard on yourself, your question was well presented, as I said
Maybe you are familiar with the adage, A problem well defined is a problem half solved.

Just for me, I would be willing to see my living standards lowered 10% if that were to help desperate people around the world. But I am not at all sure the degradation would stop at 10%, and that's one thing that concerns me quite a bit. Maybe our living standard has already been lowered 10% due to globalization, I don't know. But this is a complicated issue that taxes my humble abilities of comprehension.

As I have suggested, how far will the degradation go, and how will I know it will go no further? Would average Americans sacrifice in this manner while the wealthy elite gets richer? It sure seems that is going on and it's not OK. How will I know that my sacrifices will translate into help for individuals who are suffering in poverty, and not into making rich people richer? As other nations become more prosperous, what will be the impact on the earth's resources? Think about 'peak oil' just for one. What about controls on population growth? I've gotta tell ya, I have a lot of questions and not very many good answers. I do learn a lot here at DU, in worthwhile message threads just like this one.

I'll tell you one thing that I'm pretty sure about, though: WVU is going to thump OSU in the NCAA football national chanpionship game this year. Weeee will, weee will rock you! bump bump tish

I hope you stick around DU, I like your style.

Lasher
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Theoretically globalization may have the potential
to equalize standards of living worldwide.
But it does not in fact do that.
It hurts workers everywhere while big corporations benefit.
In order to see this one has to look beyond the reports issued by the institutions that implement globalization on behalf of global corporate interests. Going by what they say about the success of globalization is like going by what Bush says about his success in the war on terror.

These documentaries would be a good start for anyone curious about the other side of the story.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2848518&mesg_id=2848653
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I don't think this should be stated as an absolute, one way or the other
I will confess I don't have time yet to open the thread you have supplied, but I think some are helped by globalization. South Korea is one success story, and I have firsthand experience in that one. If I am correct, then workers everywhere are not hurt as you assert.

Cut me some slack, I'll hit your link when I'm not as busy as I am right now. I share you skepticism of the corporate propaganda.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. South Korea wasn't exactly poor to begin with, nor was Canada,
nor the US. It is primarily large transnational corporations that benefit from globalization, hardly surprising now that many corporations are more wealthy (and thus more powerful) than nations.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #52
66. Well, fine.
I was just finishing up a profound reply when the electricity went off. Fine. I'll start over.

As I was saying, I agree that corporations benefit most from 'free' trade. I'm just saying that sometimes, some individuals do benefit also.

South Korea is better off than it was in 1970 when I was there. It was then that I learned what I had never before seen real poverty. Not very objective, I know, but their GDP gains since that time indicate an improvement in the job market. The average worker there has benefitted from international trade. Heck, they even have labor unions now. That's good. But I worry that those jobs will now be shipped out to other nations, on account of corporate fear of having to someday actually pay a decent living wage.

But consider China and India. If you're one of the workers there who now has a good-paying job (by their standards), you gotta love 'free' trade.

All I'm saying is, some average workers do actually benefit. Some don't benefit, and some such as a portion of those in already industrialized nations, are disadvantaged. And there's a lot of Mexicans who are now disillusioned by the 'musical chairs' game of outsourcing.

This is a strange conversation. I can't believe I'm defending 'free' trade.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. "Sometimes, some individuals benefiting" is not nearly enough
I don't think it can qualify as a defense of "free trade".

It is not what proponents of "free trade" usually claim as one of the merits of globalization. They typically claim

Large corporations benefit, some individuals benefit - most individuals do not benefit.

re your electricity going off: i can't help being reminded of the rolling blackouts in California after the energy market there was 'liberalized' - another benefit of free trade.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #76
92. I can salute that, it's not nearly enough to outweigh the damage
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 10:41 AM by Lasher
I'm no fan of today's international 'free' trade agreements, that's for sure.

I noticed there's been some good points that have been made upthread by now. The 'free' trade agreements of NAFTA and CAFTA, as examples, are not exactly the same as darlier international trade agreements that helped parts of Asia to industrialize. Today's arrangements are a Libertarian's economic dream, as I have noted before and this was not so much so in the past.

Sorry you were caught up in the big Enron deregulation scam. But you have your compensations. I have been to both San Francisco & San Diego, and found them to be 2 of my favorite places of the many I have visited.

Edit: You get around DU a lot and I have wondered for some time if that's a picture of you holding up that sign. Is it?
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #52
70. South Korea was a dirt poor, near feudal state
The US encouraged a state policy of free trade and land reform for the opressed peasantry. The Korea existing before this holds little resemblance to the modern, prosperous nation it has become.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. See my post #62
South Korea did NOT follow the "free" trade gospel of turning its agricultural sector over to cash crops, starving its public sector, allowing free reign for foreign corporations, or allowing foreign imports to flood its markets. Quite the opposite.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
64. The solutions are to encourage local entrepreneurs to make products
for the local market OR to build regional free trade alliances among countries of similar socio-economic status and have the member countries build up strong industries selling to one another. Then, perhaps, they can become strong enough to compete on the world market.
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. That doesn't work on a national level.
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 11:09 AM by 135th
What you referred to is import substitution industrialization, a process in which a nation heavily restricts or bans imported goods in order to help domestic production of the same products. It was attempted by most Latin American governments after WWII as a way of building economic strength and national pride. It failed on both accounts, as consumers were saddled with overpriced, inferior goods.

By contrast, the nations which most adopted a policy of near complete openness to foreign business and trade (Japan, South Korea, Tiawan, and Singapore) are now rich, powerful nations. What the Latin Americans saw as shamefully submitting to corporate imperialism led these nations to prestige and power on par with the developed west. Now the Aisan Tigers enjoy modern living standards, while Latin America is mired in debt and poverty.

EDIT: On rereading your post, I don't think this was entirely what you were talking about, but my (unrelated) point still stands.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. Uh, weren't you around in the 1980s when everyone was complaining
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 11:17 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
about how protectionist the East Asian countries were?

I lived in Japan in the 1970s, while it was still protectionist. There was nothing shoddy about their consumer goods, even though they had little competition from overseas. They were expensive, but the country had only 2% unemployment, and everyone seemed to have a lot of money and as much Stuff as their houses could hold.

Now Japan has 100 yen (85 cents) shops where you can buy cheap junk from China or Vietnam (great when you're a traveler who needs extra coat hangers for your hotel room, not so great if you used to work in a coat hanger factory), but unemployment is way up, young people have trouble finding full-time jobs, the crime rate is going up, and there are homeless people all over the parks and riverbanks.

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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. Japans economy rose dramatically,
and the wage rate rose with it. They don't have their cheap labor base anymore, and so their coporations have exported production. So yes, Japan industrial base is no longer cheap knick knacks. Now it is high end goods requiring skilled labor.

While Japan has become far more protectionist (though the 1980's complaints were more about turning a blind eye to US failures then anything Japan did), it is still very much linked to the world economy. The difference now is that Japan is a major player in global economics. It achived that status by fully embracing globalization.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. But at the expense of the living standards of many of its people
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 12:09 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
However much the corporations and the economic theorists love it, Japan's adoption of "international standards of business" (=U.S. conservative standards) has been disastrous for a lot of people.

Japan used to be noted for having the best income equality of any industrialized nation. That is changing rapidly, more super rich, but also more poor people.

Tell some guy who used to own his own machine shop and is now living in a shanty on the riverbank how wonderful globalization is.

By the way, the Japanese government has finally decided that it needs to intervene to get some of these small businesses back on their feet, because the social costs of lowered incomes, increased family stress, increased suicides, aimless and cynical youth, and increased crime are growing too burdensome.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
32. It kills diversity
It's also based on a system of force, exploitation, and oppression that's been going on for thousands of years because for globalization to survive, it must expand, and if you stand in its way and whatever you have is needed for progress, you're gone.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
36. It doesn't work now, but I think it could
If we got a pure Democratic version of it with employee and environmental protections, along with real quality and safety regulations, and protection from corporate malfeasance, it would work to improve conditions globally.

Unfortunately, the Republican/Corporate model has been installed, which appears to be leading us directly to 1984.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
42. The argument started by someone who doesn't even come
CLOSE to getting it.

Read my journal to see what I think of Job offshoring. That is all.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
45. I've posted my opinions on this issue a few times already.
But I will reiterate it is ruining America's economy. And endangering the global economy, which is some pretty hard irony. Not really, the global economy is tethered to America's and they the world can't seem to break free from it.

So it's going to hurt a lot more in the end.


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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
46. I like the term "Internationalist" to describe myself...
rather than globalist. Globalism leaves out the most important factor...individuals.

Tom Friedman's book "The World is Flat" should be essential reading for anyone who wants to discuss/debate globalism.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
51. F*CK "EFFICIENCY"
As Kurt Vonnegut put it so well in his first novel "Player Piano", and I amplify, "What the F*CK are people for?"

There has NEVER BEEN "FREE TRADE". It's all been largesse for the global corporations and screw the workers and the "consumers" fueled by corporate welfare. There will never BE "FREE TRADE"...

from your post "Globalization leads to increased living standards and decreased war, two very progressive goals." WRONG, WRONG, WRONG by every measure -- except for the VERY few at the very top.

What color is the sky in this "free trade" globalist world?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. What will be the price of the sky in this "free trade" globalist world?
That's what i'm wondering.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #54
87. You got it
they're already selling us our water. It's only a matter of time before they're selling us our air.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
56. although the players claim otherwise
I don't see how globalization has helped anyone to date. It has screwed workers across the board and has done nothing towards preserving much less improving environmental standards.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
57. There are worrying parallels
between the posters on this thread who don't like globalism saying "economics is bulshit" and the conservatives who don't like global warming denying that climatology and meteorology are real science. Economics isn't nearly perfect, but it is a fairly good way of modelling and predicting the world. Attacking something you don't understand just because it tells you something you don't want to believe is foolish.

If you want to convince people that globalisation is a bad thing, the way to do it is to produce an economic argument showing that, not to say "I don't care about economics, I know I'm right".
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Another parallel between our attitudes about globalization and ...
global warming is that the deniers of the latter claim that increased expenditures on pollution controls will lower our standard of living by increasing our costs and making us less competitive and efficient. The opponents of the former will say that it causes a lower standard of living here by making us compete with the rest of the world.

If you don't want to recognize global warming, you ignore or dismiss the evidence that it exists, e.g. shrinking ice caps, rising ocean levels, record world temperatures, etc. Instead they will pick natural variations like a lower number of hurricanes or blizzards and cold weather during the winter and make fun of those who recognize global warming as a very serious issue.

For those who are anti-globalization, evidence of increasing wage levels and prosperity in India or China or elsewhere is ignored or dismissed. Many in this camp seem to prefer the good old days, when Indians and Chinese were more universally poor and did not have factories and call center that could compete with our own.

There are major differences in the issues of global warming and globalization, but the parallels in the uses of statistics and emotions is quite striking.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #58
67. What has happened in India and China is rising living standards for SOME
and worsening living standards for others.

Even the mainstream press acknowledges this. Just a couple of days ago, the New York Times carried an article about the rising suicide rate among Indian farmers.

While China has a staggering number of multimillionaires, it also has an even more staggering number of impoverished workers and peasants who have lost their entire social safety net, the guaranteed housing, schooling, and health care they had under the old work unit system. Those gleaming skyscrapers are built by internal "illegal" immigrants who are so poor that they have to camp out in the buildings they're building. Both mothers and fathers leave their children behind in villages where the local school now charges tuition that they can't afford.

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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. While there has been a great increase in inequality in china in the past..
20-30 years, this period has also seen the greatest reduction in world poverty in human history.

"China is about to adopt its 11th five-year plan, setting the stage for the continuation of probably the most remarkable economic transformation in history, while improving the wellbeing of almost a quarter of the world's population. Never before has the world seen such sustained growth; never before has there been so much poverty reduction." The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,,1752851,00.html

"Many of the more backward parts of China have been growing at a pace that would be a marvel, were it not that other parts of the country are growing even more rapidly. While this has reduced poverty, inequality has been increasing, with growing disparities between cities and rural areas, and coastal regions and the interior." Later in that same article.

"Since China began to carry out large-scale, systematic poverty reduction in the 1980s, the number of people living under the poverty line in the country had dropped from 250 million in 1978 to 29 million by the end of 2003. The incidence of poverty in China also dropped from 30.7 percent to 3.1 percent in the period." Xinhua News Agency March 18, 2004 http://www1.china.org.cn/english/features/poverty/95871.htm

Far be it from me to give the Chinese dictatorship a free pass when it comes to human rights abuses, running roughshod at times over the rights of the poor, prevalent corruption. The country also has all kinds of problems that go with rapid industrialization and urbanization, but I am not sure how many Chinese would exchange their current relative prosperity and its associated problems for the "equality" and poverty that existed prior to the 1980's.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Depends on who you talk to
There have been reductions in poverty, but the kind of unfettered investment by foreign companies seeking cheap labor has enriched local party officials more than it has ordinary people. In China, a foreign company can do anything it wants, as long as it bribes the right officials.

Don't be fooled by the skyscrapers of Shanghai. In vast areas of China, very little has changed since 1979 except the loss of the social safety net. Tens of millions are still illiterate, and many rural children and the children of "illegal" immigrants to the cities are not attanding school.

These are not insignificant bits of inequality.

For all its fits and starts, the Communist government did lay the foundation for China's current boom, most of all by creating the initial industrial base and attempting to spread educational opportunities outside the upper classes. Although its regrettable fits of ideological madness (the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution) derailed the process, millions of Chinese became the first members of their families ever to learn to read and write and benefit from the government's affirmative action program for children of peasants and industrial workers. They also provided basic health care thorugh the "barefoot doctor" (sort of a nurse practitioner) program and taught basic hygiene.

The "iron rice bowl" system of the work units provided a low safety net, but it was a safety net that guaranteed housing, health care, and a pension, something that the lowest classes in China no longer have.

It was an extremely repressive system, and there were no opportunities to get rich without becoming a high party official. But older Chinese speak very fondly of the first ten years of the Chinese Communist government, because as far as they were concerned, they never had it so good.

There has to be a better way than the current mode of letting corporations come in and rape poor countries and the IMF telling them that they should grow cotton or cocoa instead of food for their people and that they have to raise fees for schooling and health care and privatize their public utilities. I believe that the Asian Tigers, with their protectionism, their social and infrastructure spending, and their strict controls on foreign investors showed the way.

Too bad that the corporate tool type of economist now runs around telling everyone that any country that doesn't let give multinational corporations free reign is doomed to economic failure.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #57
69. The difference is that science has generally accepted principles for
proof and validation, and ideas are discarded if they don't meet the evidence.

These days, economics, the "science" in which Milton Friedman won the Nobel Prize, consists of mathematical modeling, independent of real-world verification.

But don't listen to me. Here's an economist's view:

"The words "science" and "Nobel" carry a heavy load of glamour, and when they are used together, as in "Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel," the glamour gets so heavy it can serve as sole collateral for billions of dollars in loans. Unfortunately, that collateral has proved to have little cash value in the real economy. We economists ought to open our eyes and see that having a Nobel Prize for economics is making the economics profession look ridiculous.

Even in years where the prize-winning "discovery" does not spectacularly fail to pan out, the prize frequently occasions embarrassment, since we have to explain to the public what the achievement of the newest laureate is. That achievement is usually not the discovery of something previously unknown, like the form of the DNA molecule or the genetic code. Rather, it is a totally made-up simplified representation of some process we all know takes place. People snickered when they heard that James Buchanan's prize was for telling us that politicians and bureaucrats act in their own interests, Robert Lucas's was for telling us that people do the best they can in doping out what to do, and Franco Modigliani's was for telling us that people save and spend their savings at different times in their lives.

Of course, the profession eminently deserves to look ridiculous and will improve only if it wakes up and realizes it. The world needs the insights and remedies that an economics worthy of being classed as a science could provide, instead of the "science" we have. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that economics today is in the situation that medicine was at the end of the Middle Ages - it consists of a set of theories invented without reference to any actual systematic observation, and not infrequently the treatments it prescribes do more harm than good. (Witness the recent accusation emanating from the economists of the World Bank that the International Monetary Fund economists' prescriptions had worsened the Asian crisis.)"

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1093/is_2_42/ai_54259870

By the way, in the above-mentioned Asian currency crisis of 1997, which I followed with great interest because it temporarily devastated my translation business, Malaysia announced that it was setting up strict currency controls as the value of the ringgit plummeted. All the mainstream economists predicted disaster and the ruination of Malaysia's heretofore growing economy. But guess what? By locking foreign speculators out of its financial markets, Malaysia was the first country to recover.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #57
74. You are making shit up
There is not a single post in this thread that says "economics is bulshit" (nor "economics is bullshit", for that matter).

There is one post that mentions "college classroom bullshit session about economic theory" - but that's not the same as saying "economics is bullshit", and it's definitely not plural - contrary to what you claim.

Also, if you'd have bothered to read some replies in this thread you'd have noticed there are many economic arguments against globalization - such as, capital leaving the nations (in the form of profits for foreign corporations operating in those nations) that are supposedly being helped by globalization.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. If Toyota would build an auto plant in the Philippines,...
to export cars to the US, Canada and Europe, employ a few thousand workers and pay them $7 a day instead of the $5 a day that other factories pay, I think that would be good for the country and its workers, even if Toyota repatriated all of the profits to Japan. At least they would have provided "good" (by local standards) jobs and helped build up the local economy through the wages they pay.

If you are saying that in an ideal world, it would be better for a Filipino company to build the plant and keep the profits in the Philippines. If that is the choice then I agree with you. If the choice, however, is to keep these workers unemployed until some Filipino accumulates enough investment capital to build the plant, then I choose the Japanese-financed plant. (Don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.) Does Toyota and Japan benefit from building a plant in the Philippines? Sure, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #57
88. The problem with your argument
is that the dismal "science" of economics is based (and constrained) by the dominant capitalist world view. It accepts as a given that capitalism is the only way to organize resource allocation among people and attempts to explain how that capitalist model works.

Therefore, the pseudo-science of economics CAN'T produce an ECONOMIC argument showing that globalization is a bad thing.

Only by considering the effects of the capitalist system, and it's bastard brother globalization, on the majority of the Earth's population, by making a MORAL argument is the truth of the current situation revealed.

I don't need no stinkin' "economic" argument...
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. It's all very well to say "I don't need no stinkin' "economic" argument"
But saying it and then asking people to take what you have to say about economics seriously is asking too much.

You certainly can't validly "consider the effects of the capitalist system, and it's bastard brother globalization, on the majority of the Earth's population" by any means other than economics.

Trying to make a "moral argument" about economic issues without understanding the economics is like trying to make a moral argument about a war without knowing who fought who, where or why, or what happened. You need to understand the facts (economics) before you can draw conclusions (morality).
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