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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:17 PM
Original message
Casey remained calm, rational; Santorum came off as confused and hyper
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 05:39 PM by ProSense
MR. CASEY: Based upon the information that we have now, I think that, that a lot of Americans would have serious doubts. Im not sure there would have even been a vote on Iraq that early in the...

MR. RUSSERT: But in 05 you said youd vote for it. Would you today in 06 vote for it?

MR. CASEY: Based upon the evidence that was presented then, yes, which I think has beenwas misleading, and I think it was faulty. The intelligence was faulty.

MR. RUSSERT: But today, today is no. Today you would vote no.

MR. CASEY: Todayif we knew then what we know now, sure. I think there wouldnt have been a vote and I think people would have changed.

Seriously, if everyone knew that the evidence was false, Bush lied and Iraq had no WMD, why would the resolution even exist?


MR. CASEY: I dont think we can, Tim. Im not ready to abandon this mission; I think a lot of Americans are not, either. What has to happen in Iraq is what youve, youve not seen. We need new leadership. We dont need a deadlinea timeline; we need new leadership. And part of that leadership, I think, involves a couple of things. Let me just go through four of five of them.


...Accountability, I think, means replacing Donald RumsfeldRick and I disagree on thatit means finding out how and whether we were lied to with regard to intelligence.

Good points on accountability!


SEN. SANTORUM: Ill be happy to start there. I think Secretary Rumsfeld has done a fine job as the defense secretary, and the problems that we are confronting are problems of an enemy thats a very potent enemymuch more potent than I think anybody ever anticipated....We need to go out there and continue to fight this war on Islamic fascism. Not just, as my opponent likes to focus on, just the war in Iraq. Thats a front of a multi-front war in which were fighting against an enemy thats a very dangerous enemy.

WTF? It can't be won militarily, pay attention, it's a law enforcement issue.


SEN. SANTORUM:...This is an enemy that uses a tactic that is a very effective tactic against us, called terror, because they dont care about life, and we do. And so when you havewhen you match up those forces, people who dont put on uniforms, people who are willing to die for their cause, and want to die for their cause, makes it a very difficult enemy to fight, one that we have not successfully fought in the pastor I shouldnt say successfully, one that we havent fought in the past.

We dont need a friggin definition of the word terrorist.


MR. RUSSERT: Let me talk about a Pentagon report on Friday. Our ambassador to Iraq has said the principal problem is not foreign terrorists, its sectarian violence, Sunni vs. Shiite. The Pentagon report on Friday said this: Sectarian violence is spreading in Iraq and the security problems have become more complex than at any time since the U.S. invasion in 2003, a Pentagon report said. ... Death squads and terrorists are locked in mutually reinforcing cycles of sectarian strife. ... The last quarter, as you know has been rough, Rodman said. The levels of violence are up and the sectarian quality of the violence is particularly acute and disturbing.

This is Shiite vs. Sunni, Iraqi vs. Iraqi.

SEN. SANTORUM: Yeah. This is...

MR. RUSSERT: What do you do about that, stay the course?

SEN. SANTORUM: That makes, that makes it more complex....

Santorum is spewing BS right here. Iraq and the war on terror are separate issues. He keeps talking about all the people who are chanting death to Americans. Is he suggesting an invasion of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon, etc.?


MR. RUSSERT: But, but stay on Iraq, Senator.

SEN. SANTORUM: Im coming back to it...This is a tactic of Iran to disrupt theour, our efforts in Iraq by, in fact, trying to defeat the Sunnis. So theres, theres no question, this is a very complex war.

MR. RUSSERT: So Iran now has more influence in Iraq than they did before Saddam Hussein?

SEN. SANTORUM: Just understand.

MR. RUSSERT: Is that true?

SEN. SANTORUM: I would say that they have influence in, in, in a free country where you have an opportunity to express yourself, if you will. Yes. You can probably do more...

Iran is expressing themselves in a free country?


MR. CASEY: Couple of things. First of all, what you just heard was Senator Santorums long answer, which basically says, Stay the course in Iraq. Its a completely different point of view. I think weve go got to change the course and, and have new leadership. Part of that is that, that accountability Ive talked about.

Casey: Zing!


MR. CASEY: Tim, Ive never favored a deadline in, in, in this whole campaign. Because we have to do everything we can to, to hold the administration accountable. And when yourewhen its not going well, you, you see the, the Pentagon report this pastjust in the last couple of days, this thing is headed toward civil war. We dont know if its there yet. We hope its not. But when you have it heading in the wrong direction, youve got to have a new course. And, and...

MR. RUSSERT: So, so when John Kerry, the Democratic nominee in 2004, introduced legislation which says, All troops out by July of 2007, Bob Casey votes no.

MR. CASEY: Absolutely.

Contradiction: There is absolutely no reason to continue giving the impression that a timetable for withdrawal is not the most rational next step. Iraq is in a civil war, but the notion that it's "not there yet" as an excuse against a timetable makes little sense. The situation is deteriorating rapidly. Keeping the troops in Iraq until everyone is satisfied that the country in a full-blown civil war is not logical! When he talks about troops pulling back, increasing special forces, turning over responsibility to the Iraqis, he makes sense. The rescue the mission crap is nonsense.


SEN. SANTORUM: What I would say is that we have found weapons of mass destruction, they were older weapons, but we have found chemical weapons. The report was just released not too long ago that, that said that there were over 500 chemical weapons found in Iraq.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator, the president has accepted the report of his two task force and said, That the chief weapons inspector has issued his report. Iraq did not have the weapons our intelligence believed were there.

SEN. SANTORUM: Well, there were all sorts of weapons that our intelligence believed were there. They thought that they were new weapons. So far we, we did notwe have not found any new weapons. But we have found old weapons, weapons from the Iran/Iraq conflict, and we found over 500 and the report says that there were more.

This was debunked! Repubs simply continue spewing the same BS to confuse.


MR. RUSSERT: President Bush said that Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th. Do you agree with that?

SEN. SANTORUM: As far as we know, thats, thats the case. But that doesnt mean that they didnt have a working relationship with a variety of different terrorist organizations. In fact, the Saddam Hussein government was giving bounties for killing Israelis, giving terrorists bounties for killing Israelis.

Huh? See last point!


SEN. SANTORUM: I dont know if its a question of more troops or less troops. You getI, I think the focus should not be Iraq, should be Iran.

MR. CASEY: Tim, youre hearing, youre hearing a long speech here about, about other speeches hes given. What we need and what the president needs to tell us about, and what this senator wont hold the president accountable for is a plan. One of the things that we could be doing, not just when it comes to Iraq, but when it comes to the, the global war on terror, is to have more Special Forces out there. Doubling the number of Special Forces, having counterproliferation units run by the Special Forces that intercept nuclear, biological, chemical, potential weapons around the worldfinding them before the terrorists get them. Thats the kind of on-the-ground thing. We dont need more speeches.

Casey: Zing!


MR. CASEY:...Let me, let me just have a moment on, on Iran. Rick, you just talked about, and youve heard him a lot talking about Iran. Youve heard him a lot talking about the terminology of, of the war on terror. He calls it Islamic fascism and, and he, and he talks about the terminology and changing the terms. What we need, Rick, is not a change in the terminology, we need to change the tactics. And weve got to make sure that even as youre debating whether or not we call Osama bin Laden a terrorist or a fascist, I dont think that really matters. We need a plan. Youre in the Senate, you have votes, you should be leading that effort. And I, I think after its over, after you get the terminology right, maybe you can have a seminar in Washington about whether bin Laden, whom we should be finding and killing, whether hes a dead terrorist or a dead fascist. And I think you should worry more about finding him and killing him.

Casey: Zing!


SEN. SANTORUM: My, my opponent has, my opponent has, my opponent has no plan. The ideaall hes suggested is his plan is Special...

MR. CASEY: I just gave a plan. Wheres yours?

SEN. SANTORUM: All you, all you suggested with your plan is more Special Forces.

MR. CASEY: No, its not. Thats not, thats not all it is.

SEN. SANTORUM: Do you, do you support, do you support more intelligence gathering because your party has been out there...

MR. CASEY: Absolutely.

SEN. SANTORUM: ...trying to, trying to undermine our surveillance programs. Youre the one whos gone out and said that you have serious questions about our intelligence surveillance programs. What do you think has kept our people safe? What do you think stopped the British, the British attack? You folks have been the party, as you have been the party, of making sure that we dont have the intelligence gathering capabilities that we need, and, and, and have, have joined in making sure...

MR. CASEY: Rick, Rick, youre not debating the party, youre debating me right here.

SEN. SANTORUM: Im debating you.

MR. CASEY: Yeah.

Casey, calm! Ricky rabid!


SEN. SANTORUM: Please let me finishbecause the American people are not going to standare, are, are losing their resolve because of the tactics the terrorists are using. Understand, terrorists understand. What they, what they want to accomplish is every single day to kill people, and every single day make it hard for Americans to open up their papers, or turn on their television and find more death and more destruction. And its undermining our ability to prosecute this war.

This is where you insert Senator Kerrys excellent response to Bushs Americas strained psyche nonsense.


MR. RUSSERT: Let me pursue that, because when President Clinton took troops into Kosovo, this is what you said. President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill defined objective and no exit strategy. He is yet to tell Congress how much this operation will cost. And, he has not informed our nations Armed Forces about how long they will be away from home.

Do you believe you should have the same standard for President Bush? He should give a defined objective, he should give an exit strategy, he should give a cost, and he should give a timeline for Iraq, just as you were demanding President Clinton give for Kosovo?

SEN. SANTORUM: No. Because, because Kosovo and, and Slobodan Milosevic were never a security threat to the United State of America. No way. ThereI mean, it wasnt even close.

So Clinton should have, but not Bush?


MR. CASEY: And so do I, and so do a lot, a lot of Americans. But, but I think you should tell the American people today about what youre feeling is about the number one, or the most prominent, at least, opponent of sanctions, critic of, of Irans sanctions when he was in the private sector at least. His name is Dick Cheney. Its not some, some European. Dick Cheney opposed sanctions when he was at the Halliburton Company. And I want to ask you today, Rick, do youare you going to sit here today and not denounce him for continually opposing sanctions, and are you going to give the money back that he raised for you? I think he raised you 300,000 bucks in Luzerne County.

SEN. SANTORUM: Im not going to denounce the vice president of the United States, and I think youd find that...

MR. CASEY: Even on sanctions?

SEN. SANTORUM: EvenI, I disagree with him on sanctions, Im not going to denounce him because I have a disagreement. I dont denounce people because I disagree with them.

Casey: Zing!


SEN. SANTORUM: Absolutely. I agree with the president, as you see, a vast majority of the time. When I agree with him, I say it. And when I dont agree with him, I, I say it, too.

Santorum: Rubber stamp Repub!


MR. RUSSERT: But by your standards, its the taking of a life.

SEN. SANTORUM: It is, theres no question its the taking of a life. But if itit is an attempt for me to try to see if we can find common ground to actually make progress in limiting the other abortions. So yes, thats what I would do.

But? WTF? Either its murder or youre full of shit!


MR. CASEY: Well, Tim, Im going to go out on a limb and say I disagree. You know, Tim, what I think what the governor is trying to make a point about is that, as a public official, certainly as a governor, youve got to work with both parties, and Im glad that he does, and hes a great, great governor. And Ed Rendell has been a great supporter of mine throughout this whole campaign and we look forward to, to working together and, and winning this race.

Quote by Rendell was completely unnecessary, goofy and wrong!


MR. CASEY: Tim, what youve got here is some, some Washington hot air and lecturing. Here, here are the facts. He just, he just completely misrepresented the facts. He, he said here today, as he did a week ago, that, that I didnt make the statement I made on the pay raise until after the election when people were defeated. That is 100 percent wrong.

Theres only one person at this table who has made a commitment, or made a commitment when he was first elected to office never to take a pay raise and then he did, and its this guy right here. I never made that promise and never broke that promise. And on the issue of the state pay raise, I came out very clearly, long before Election Day in November 05 against it. And, and Rick Santorum when he was asked...

SEN. SANTORUM: You didnt do anything when you couldve stopped it.

MR. CASEY: When he was, when he washold on, Rick.

SEN. SANTORUM: You didnt do anything when you couldve stopped it.

MR. CASEY: When he was, when he, when he was asked about it, when he was asked about it...

SEN. SANTORUM: Why didnt you try to stop it, Bob?

Santorum: has no point to make, sticks out his tongue! Geez!


MR. RUSSERT: The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette had this editorial: Five Santorum children have been home-schooled at their house in Leesburg, Virginia, through the Pennsylvania Cyber Charter School, an education paid for by the Penn Hills district to the tune of $38,000 a year, until it became apparent that they dont live in Penn Hills. They go on. The sent a letter to Rick Santorum at his home address, at least the one that he claims. Back from Penn Hills came the letter with a sticker from the U.S. Postal Service checked as Not Deliverable As AddressedUnable To Forward.

And what people point to, and particularly the media in the western part of the state, is in 1990 when you ran for the House, you ran against the incumbent Doug Walgren, and ran this commercial repeatedly. Lets watch.

(Videotape, 1990 Santorum campaign ad):

AD ANNOUNCER: Theres something strange about this house. It belongs to our congressman, Doug Walgren. Whats so strange? Instead of living in his own congressional district, Congressman Walgren lives in this house, located in the wealthiest area of Virginia.

(End of videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: And now the State Education Department, state taxpayers are going to have tohave agreed to give the Penn Hills school district $55,000 to compensate for your childrens tuition while they were in Virginia taking a cyber course. And based on that commercial...

SEN. SANTORUM: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: ...isnt that rather hypocritical of you?

SEN. SANTORUM: No, not at all. Look, look, first off, that commercial, you didnt play the rest of it, that commercial criticized my opponent. First off, he never owned a home in the district, ever, in 14 years. Let me finish. He never owned a home for 14 years, never had a residence there.

Santorum: corrupt Repub!

MR. CASEY: Absolutely, and I already have made that pledge.

Tim, let me get 30 seconds on the residency question. It is an issue. Its an issue with, with Senator Santorum and his constituents, and its an issue because he made it, as you said, an issue in 1990. But thein addition to that question, the question is not where he lives in the endits one of the questions, not the only questionits how he votes. He votes the wrong way for the people of Pennsylvania, 98 percent of the time with George Bush.

Casey: Zing!


Casey came off as a calm, rational person. Listening to Santorum's hyper BS is painful. He's hyper and seems to believe that whiney, screeching way he presents his confusing case scores him points. In fact, I believe he adopted that as a delivery tactic believing it makes him sound authoritative. Some may want to confuse it with dominating the debate, but it really is a diversionary tactic.


Transcript


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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree.... Casey exceded expectations.
Santorum was every bit the a-hole we hate.

Casey had a really great ad placement right after the debate, too. Savvy!
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Santorum ranted, Casey remained calm and collected.
Rick sees the writing on the wall.

Bye, Rick.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Exactly!
There is a big difference between being assertive when spewing BS and being assertive when presenting facts. Casey did the right thing by remaining calm. The alternative would have been to continual assert that Santorum was spewing nonsense, which would have, IMO, deteriorated into the silly exchange seen at points in the debate. Instead he let Santorum rant silly, then calmly made his point. The Cheney/Haliburton statement was a smack down, as was the dead bin Laden comment!
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Santorum bringing up Casey's Dad was a stupid move on his part.
That will come back to haunt him. Big time.
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Shrill Santorum, Cool Casey.
Ricky looked like the raving lunatic that we all know he is. Casey was calm and in control.

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loves_dulcinea Donating Member (384 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. it was frustrating as hell
watching santorum posture and grandstand. i hope he loses his a$$.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree with your summation..
and I watched the debate.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Video is here:
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Totally agree - and you even left out the fiscal responsibility zinger
right before a commercial break - I loved this:

MR. CASEY: Im for, Im for fiscal responsibility.

Hey, Rick, youretheres only one guy sitting at this table running for the Senate who voted for those record deficits and voted to raise the debt number more in, in a couple of years than every president from George Washington to, to Bill Clinton. Youve got a lot of explaining to do. Im, Im the one whos been fiscally responsible in my work. You ought to try it.


After Santorum tried all sorts of ways to dodge his own record.

:rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. LOL!
SEN. SANTORUM: He was against it. Hes against anything that cuts government.

MR. CASEY: No.

SEN. SANTORUM: Hes for increasing taxes, and he says he wants to, wants to balance the budget. Thats just a joke.



"He's against it," screech! "He's against anything...," screech! OMG, my eardrums!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Casey brands Santorum a "rubber stamp," forces him to endorse war
September 4, 2006

Senator Backs the War in Iraq and Rumsfeld in a TV Debate

By ROBIN TONER

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3 Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, one of the most endangered Republican incumbents in the Senate, defended the war in Iraq on Sunday as a war of necessity, not choice, arguing that it was a central part of this broad war against Islamic fascism.

In a debate on Meet the Press on NBC, Mr. Santorum also praised the leadership of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and President Bush. Asked if he would join calls for Mr. Rumsfelds resignation, Mr. Santorum said that the defense secretary had done a fine job and that the nation faced foes much more potent than I think anybody ever anticipated.

Mr. Santorums Democratic opponent, Bob Casey Jr., the Pennsylvania state treasurer, called him a rubber stamp for the Bush administration and said he had failed to hold Mr. Bush accountable for the conduct of the war.

When you have two politicians in Washington who agree 98 percent of the time, one of thems really not necessary, said Mr. Casey, alluding to Mr. Santorums voting record. We could have a machine have that kind of vote.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/washington/04debate.h...


Santorum Defends President, Iraq War

Senator Stands by Bush During Debate

By Charles Babington
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 4, 2006; Page A04

Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), battling for reelection in a state where President Bush is not popular, gave a full-throated defense of the president yesterday and said the United States must prevail in the Iraq war.

In his first and perhaps only debate with Democratic challenger Bob Casey Jr., Santorum lived up to his reputation as a feisty, unapologetic conservative, even though it has caused him problems in moderate-voting Pennsylvania. Ignoring Casey's taunts that he is a "rubber stamp" for Bush, Santorum embraced the president and most of his anti-terrorism policies.

"I think he's been a terrific president, absolutely," Santorum said in the nearly hour-long debate on NBC's "Meet the Press." Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld -- whose resignation is being sought by some Republican candidates --"has done a fine job," he said, and "there is no question that the Iraq war should have commenced."

Polls consistently have shown Casey, the state treasurer and son of a popular former governor, leading Santorum. Democrats see the race as one of their two or three best chances for gaining a Senate seat on Nov. 7, although Santorum has a record of winning tough elections. Santorum, who has asked for many debates, spent much of the hour portraying Casey as a bob-and-weave politician unwilling to take stands on tough issues.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...



Video: Santorum: I Think The Focus Should Not Be Iraq, It Should Be Iran

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-04-06 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. That was a good move.
First thing Santorum had to say (cuz Casey forced him too): "I think Rumsfeld is doing a fine job."

I about fell out of my chair. How many people in this country can see what is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the increasing danger of Iran and N. Korea - not to mention our abject failure to do anything about a real crisis in a large portion of Africa (Sudan kicking out UN and AU peacekeepers, Ethiopia saying it will invade) - and think that this guy is doing a "heckuva job"?
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