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Michael_UK Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:12 AM
Original message
The right and the Jewish
It's often a cry of the right that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, and that liberals are anti-semitic. Now I know this is rubbish, and it seems a way of deflecting any criticism from the right of anti-semitism.

Now, given that the (Christian) right typically support Israel, but often because of odd reasons to do with the Rapture where does that place the true value of their "support". E.g. we support Israel so that we can get to heaven, and then everyone else can burn in hell. That doesn't really seem pro-Jewish to me. Secondly, the conservative criticism of the "secular liberal elite" often seems code for Blue State Jews, in the same way that State's Rights is often code for "anti-black".

Any thoughts?
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JHH Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:13 AM
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1. an interesting point
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:32 AM
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2. The "Israel FIRST" crowd exists in both parties
so the wail of anti semitism or the ever insulting "self hating Jew" epithet hurled at people with legitimate complaints over Israel's behavior isn't the property of one party or the other. It's the problem with a certain mindset, a fearful one that needs the presence of a Jewish state as a place to retreat to should REAL anti semitism ever rear its ugly head in the US again.

I don't condone this mindset, but I do understand where it's coming from.

I'm also not terribly polite when I contradict it.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Contradict it?
Contradict what? The idea that virulent, violent anti-semitism can rise even to the point of dominance in our society? It can happen here. It very likely will happen here, just as it has happened in every single country that has had a sizeable Jewish minority. People think immediately of Germany, but it happened in France, in England, in Russia, Ukraine, Poland. The word 'ghetto' is Italian, for the first walled-in Jewish community in European history.

Don't doubt it can happen here.
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mike923 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. I haven't figured out the hessitation to support Isreal....
Isreal has democratically elected officials, modern viewpoints with regards to gays/women/minorities, and a thriving economy.

Considering those that they are fighting do not have any of the above, i still am confused why we are wishy washy on who to support. Especially considering our long history of support by Jewish Americans.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. ask the Palestinians how democratic Israel is. nt
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mike923 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Compared with who?
there are ideals that all Democrats hold dear, and live their individual lives to. Comparing societies who reflect those ideals, it is simply no contest who is closer to them between Isreal and Palestine.

The reason why their are so many Jewish American Democrats, is because they also believe in us. Why we don't always recipocate, is a mystery to me.
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Democrats hold taking other's land, resources dear?
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 03:05 PM by JackNewtown
Back in the day all progressives used to oppose that...

Muslims also vote democratic now, but the Muslim vote is never included in discussions of the ethnic/religious politics involved in the US position in the ME. Do some votes matter more than other people's votes to some people?

It is a nice, common talking point but the reality is much more mixed on votes, particularly when one group is rapdily growing while the other's population is declining.
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Does Israel allow them to speak when spoken to? nt
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I have always supported Israel.
I just don't support government policies that insist of a military solution to political problems. The Israeli government treated the Palestinian Authority like a criminal gang, instead of a legitimate elected government, and did everything it could to marginalise Arafat - and in doing so, created the conditions that threw popular backing to Hamas. The Israeli government has adopted the American style of negotiating -- do as we say, or we do nothing. When one party of a negotiation walks away from the table it's time to re-examine the points being negotiated, not attack their leader in his compound with jet fighters. When Hamas terrorists set off a bomb, it is counter-productive to attack the PA police headquarters for their not preventing it.

I support Israel, but not its government policies, just as I support the US but not its republican government. Peace cannot be imposed by tanks.
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mike923 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. And likewise i support Hamas, except...
for all the suicide bombings, i'm sure they nice people. If Hamas or any other muslim group acted in a civilized fashion (i.e do not blow yourself up on a crowded school bus) i'm sure they would be treated in a likewise way by Isreal.

So, i won't defend Isreal and their military actions. Both are capable of deplorable actions. Setting aside both countries deplorable actions, leaves how each operates a society. There is no question Isreal operates in a fashion similiar to how any Democrat would support with regards to social issues. Compared with how these radical muslims groups treat women/gays/minorities/religious tolerance, ect. How can anybody even pause when deciding who to support?
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JackNewtown Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. "any other muslim group acted in a civilized fashion"
That says it all...

Yes, if the Palestinians just left Israel alone their would peace. After all, look at all the Israeli land, resources the Palestinians are stealing, which is quite progressive...
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. You do realize that it was Israel's refusing to deal honestly
with Arafat and the Palestinian Authority - secular, socialist, and authoritarian - that gave power to Hamas - religious, radical, and authoritarian.

They misjudged the Palestinians because they would not see them for who they are and what they want, and thus changed the equation. By seeing all Palestinians as the same, as the enemy, they have created that reality.

How do the Palestinians act, as a society? good question - because Israel has done everything in its power to prevent the Palestinians from coalescing into a society. They keep the people in poverty, the assassinate their leaders, they claim the right to make armed incursions into any Palestinian territory, but shoot children who cut across a fence to save time on the way home.

But Israel is democratic, so it's all good.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Is endless war worth all of that?
I agree with you that for the most part Israel is right and the Arab factions that have basically declared war on them are wrong. Granted, I think that some Arab factions do have legitimate grievances against Israel, but that's mostly beside the point.

But, with all of the people that have died on both sides, I simply ask myself every day whether it is worth it. I'm wondering whether we should simply give up on Israel and concede that much of the Arab world will never give up on this and let them win even though they are wrong because it will save so many innocent lives on both sides. I realize that countries have had to fight for their existence in the past but never in recent history can I think of an instance where a nation has had to fight for their existence with no end in sight.

Also, I'm not saying that I support any of the above as policy, but it's something that I do think about.
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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. A country can be democratic up the ass
but when they escalate violence to the levels we see today that kills hundreds (maybe in the thousands today) of civilians; I refuse to support them. Being a democracy is not a "trump-card" that nations can throw down and we must obediently bow down in support of them no matter what other actions they take.
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