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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:23 AM
Original message
The mideast crisis and internal effects in the US and other observations
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 10:24 AM by nadinbrzezinski

The power grid in Lebanon has been utterly destroyed... yet you can see city lights in the city of Beirut in the background in the middle of a bombardment. If the power grid was utterly destroyed why do I see lights on the city? Hmmm, and the hotels have electricity and it is the WHIOLE city. Sections, very small sections have been reduced to rubble but this is NOT total war... not by a far cry... nor is this collective punishment, another favorite one I hear from people quoting conventions of war they barely understand.

ICRC ship with supplies including 10,000 gallons of diesel pulls up to Tyre... they are not allowed by the Customs Official to unload that fuel because they don't have the proper import papers... things that make you go hmmm.... why? What is the motive to hold back relief supplies? Not that CNN will ask that question.

Oh and how many ships have been affected by shore missiles from Hisbollah in this war? Well the toll so far are: One Israeli Navy Ship (Legal target), and one Cambodian freighter sunk, in the early hours of the war. It is the first time I hear about the Cambodian freighter and it puts the taking out of all them radar batteries in a whole new perspective.

Raid on a hospital on Baalbeck. Either this place was not used treating patients, or exactly how do you start an IV on a 50 mm bullets? I guess very carefully and I will have to keep my paddles AWAY from same bullet. Given the number of casualties reported by the Lebanese Government you'd think this hospital would have patients, but both sides agree on this point, it did not.

Now lets go into Antisemitism, which over the last two weeks has shown how fast and hard it can rear it ugly head.

There are two classic canards that have come to be... strongly and almost with mythical proportions.

1.- Blood Libel: This classic from the middle ages usually went something like this. The Jews need the blood of Christian children for their rites of Passover. So if there was any child that went missing near Easter, it had to be those filthy Jews... who probably killed the child and drained the blood. At times it had elements added, such as they have also stolen our holy wafers from the Church. What it did lead was to Progroms on the local ghetto when steam needed to be bled. Fast forwards to today... the IDF is purposely targeting civilians. I know some in the left like to belief this, but this is a new form of blood libel and a classic of Antisemitic theory and practice... and of course when you confront the person... but, but I am only critizing Israel... I am not antisemituic. Sorry, that idea that an army will purposely target civilians without the kind of evidence that will stand in the Hague is hearsay and antisemitic. But, but, what about Qanna? I will be told... from the IAF investigation falls under fog of war, yes accidents, tragic mistakes do occur in war. Especially when your enemy IS hiding assets among those same civilians... and this little fact about tragic errors occurring in warfare, will not change with better technology. Better technology only means we are more efficient. But we cannot trust the IAF, they lied you see... they told you they had missiles coming from that town, and they also said that if they knew civies were in that building they would not have attacked. I guess our own Air Force cannot be trusted in its report over the Chinese Embassy Bombing and the tragic shelter bombing in the '81 campaign. Both happened due to dated intelligence. Oh and one more thing the ever so pro Israeli, NOT, Humans Rights Watch has released numbers that contradict the Lebanese numbers, telling us there were 20 dead not 60, but hey... not that I expect anybody to even acknowledge that fog of war is real, let alone that numbers, like in any other conflict, are at times inflated for PROPAGANDA purposes... and we all know Hisbollah does not engage in Propaganda and only the US and Israeli governments do... never mind Hisbollah has won that facet of the war.

2.- the Jews Control the Government, straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion... this is a little more modern and actually matches the rise of the modern nation state where Jews, for the first time, were allowed to participate as citizens. Yes blame the French Revolution for this one. How has this one morphed? The Jews control US Policy, and Israel tells us what to do... all the evidence you want to provide about AIPACs influence and power does not make it so. In fact... I know this will be surprising to some, there are no PNACers in the Israeli Government or Neo Cons, just as there are no Liddudists in the American Government. In some respects it may seem those ignorant or purposely blind that this is the case because some policies might seem to be pushing to the same end, but that does not make this proof of control. This is a lazy excuse and one pregnant with all kinds of antisemitic charges... but wait, I am only critiquing Israel... yep you are, tell me how much control do Jews have over the Media? I mean here is the list of whose who... a favorite from the right and the Aryan Nations.

Now on to Hisbollah... in the hate of George Bush the left has done something that it almost incredible and incredibly stupid. Not only it has embraced the two above antisemitic canards with gusto (hey man I am only critiquing Israel, well so was the guy who went into the Jewish Federation in Seattle and killed one and injured four) but it has embraced Hisbollah. Now what have these boy scouts done? Well for starters they have done something very good... built social services in the south, in effect also politicing and radicalizing the shia poor. Schools are good, it is the curriculum that makes them questionable. But they have done other things... lets lists them, shall we?

1.- Marine Barracks in Beirut, that was their hello we are now a new organization... and we'd rather have your marines killed... boom....

2.- Strong, as in very strong evidence, does exist that these folks were behind the bombing of a Jewish Community center in Buenos Aires Argentina.. but I guess they were only fighting Israel.

3.- Since 2000, after Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon, these peace loving folks have been lobbing katyushas at Northern Israel, every week. Yet they are the innocent victims. Why have they been doing this? I guess to generate the kind of response that has been generated.

4.- By the American Left conveniently forgetting some of these facts and calling these people freedom fighters, they have in effect supporting an organization that has said repeatedly that it wants to destroy Israel and kill Americans. This is NOT the Frente Farabundo Marti de Liberacion Natcionalb who WERE Freedom Fighters. Congratulation... in this new bizarro world those who have embrazed HIsbollah have proved Annie Coulter right... happy now?

Consequences.... Over the last two weeks I have seen this rise and so have many other politically aware Jews in the US. One thing is to be critical of Israel, quite another, as it has been used, it to use Israel as cover for Antisemitic views. In November, assuming enough non politically aware Jews realize what is going on... I suspect the few districts where Jews can turn an election... (I can count them with the fingers of one hand) will go Republican. Why? This traditional voting block of the left does not feel welcome by the left any more.

But you are exaggerating? You have no idea how fast things like oh antisemitism and who is spouting it travel in the very small Jewish Community.

For the moment now I no longer listen to AAR, except the Franken show, why? IT is bizarro world, It is just as bizarre as RIGHT WING radio... and some of the arguments are clearly the same with different actors.

Another consequence of this war is that Israel is oh so working for our interests that the US cannot control them, and the crisis has revealed that the Empire has no clothes, or teeth or ability to influence a damn thing on the ground

Oh and one last thing... the next person that asks for me to justify MORALLY what is going on in a war zone, let me slap you now. There is no morality in war, whatsoever... if you believe such, stick to Hollywood movies, the only place were morality plays a role. Outside of Hollywood and in the real environment of war... there is no morality.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. The only part of this that makes any sense is about the FMLN and ships
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 11:06 AM by leveymg
What is this stuff about Blood Libel, Nadine? It's just totally over the top. Nobody (that I've seen) is saying that Olmert has Arab children's blood for breakfast. Similarly, nobody (ditto) says that Jews run the U.S. Department of the Interior - but, the neo-cons have had an instrumental role in formulating U.S. foreign policy toward South Asia and the Middle East since 2000. Please, I hope you don't deny that.

As for Hezballah, yes they started as a gang of terrorists and they did blow up the Marine Barracks in Beirut in 1983. You failed to mention that they also murdered a U.S. Navy Diver who was a passenger aboard TWA flight 847 that was hijacked in 1985. But, since the Israeli pullout of Lebanon in May 2000 until this war started in July 2006, not a single Israeli civilian was killed by rockets launched by Hezballah, and according to the Anti-Defamation League -- hardly a leftist organization -- not a single Israeli civilian died in a Hezballah terrorist attack during that period. There was a man in a border village who died in August 2003 after being struck by shrapnel from a Hezballah anti-aircraft gun, but it has never been established that was intentional. Furthermore, Israeli military casualties during border skirmishes with Hezballah totalled fewer than 25 during that period.

By these measures, Hezballah's behavior between the occupations showed some discipline. One can reasonably argue that it didn't pose an existential threat to Israel before this war began. What follows, who knows? A reversion to terrorism - unfortunately, quite likely. The Israelis might end up missing the pre-July Hezballah.

And, yes, international law -- which has some basis in morality and pragmatism -- does apply to war zones. The areas occupied by the Israeli Defense Forces are not exempt.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No it is not over the top
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 11:09 AM by nadinbrzezinski
trust me when I say this, from the POV of the specialist. This one comes back into fashion every time Israel goes to war. Somehow Israel targets civilians, (on purpose mind you) while the Arabs are only defending themselves.

So since nobody was killed since 2000 you say that the Israelis had to take it? Read what you are writing here? It is incongruous and illogical that ANY country should take missiles attacks from the safety of somebody else's territory... (That said IIRC people have been killed in places like Kiryat Shmona since 2000 and befor this started)

Sorry if I make you and others uncomfortable but this is the reality.

By the way morality has nothing to do with war, or the laws of war... ethics do but they are not the same thing as morality, and you can fight an ethical war, but war by its nature is not moral.

Oh and US policies are US Policies and Israeli Policies ARE Israeli Policies... they at tiems converge, but at times they opose each other. This is THE REALITY of the situation.. but saying that Jews somehow control our policies in the name if Israel is using Israel as cover for antisemitic views... so tell me, how many Jews control the media?





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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think you're equating normal war psychology -- black-white --
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 11:22 AM by leveymg
"we're good/they're evil" thinking with Blood Libel. Blood Libel has a very specific meaning in the history of anti-semitic myth-making. Please don't misapply that label.

As for missile attacks 05/00 - 07/06 on Israeli civilians, you have to produce a source for your assertion. This issue has been looked at by many people in recent days, and nobody can cite an authoritative source that shows a single launch that resulted in a civilian fatality. I don't think I'm splitting hairs here. This is an important issue that goes to the question of whether Hezballah was indeed an existential threat to Israel, and whether the IDF response was proportional. According to the ADL, Hamas or other Palestinian groups indeed launched at least two fatal rocket attacks in the south during that period - but Hezballah didn't. This is reality that has to be considered, and I'm not making it up.

By the way, morality and ethics and laws overlap. Please, don't apply silly epistomology.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not at all
this is not war psycology... but if you want or choose to believe this, go ahead... I know what I am seeing... it is ugly and it will lead to something very ugly

For the moment... I have ensured I have a way out for what I feel coming IN THIS COUNTRY is wicked and for once it has precious little to do with George Bush.

By the by, even if nobody was killed and people were just injured, do you mean to tell me ANY nation has to take this?

As I said, I am not over the top... and many who harbor the A views, are now using Israel as cover... but I am only criticizing Israel. And as I wrote, if I remember correctly people have been killed well before July... I don't have the time to PROVE this to you... for I fear any level of proof will not be enough... that is the other conclusion I have reached... the left has truly entered bizarro world and in that... the left is embracing views that are even more dysfunctional than before.

It is as bizarre as having Mexican Jews vote for the PAN Candidate (which comes straight from the Brown Shirts) because the left down there has also gone down bizarro world.

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I also see a rise of antisemitism. But, it's a generalized dislike of all
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 11:58 AM by leveymg
things and everyone Mid-Eastern -- Arabs and Israelis, Muslims and Jews, alike. It accompanied all the regional wars, even those not really involving Israel (Desert Storm). Unless some powerful political movement or moneyed institution seizes on this, amplifies it, I think this, too, will likely pass.

As for whether Israel needed to tolerate missile attacks - of course not. Send in airstrikes, use counter-battery artillery, shoot the missile launchers from space, if you have that ability. But, don't bomb every bridge and city in Lebanon and expect people not to be outraged by the disproportionate response and massive killing of civilians. If there had been two days of heavy bombardment on Hezballah positions on the border following 7/12, and some sort of commando operation to seize some Hezbollah leaders, nobody would really be outraged.

I would consider any evidence you present on the topic of pre-7/12 attacks by Hezballah, or any other point you want to make, and if warranted I will revise my assessment.

It is possible to be critical of the Israeli Government and retain good-will for Israel. It's not just the Left that's gone fruit-loops - we're really not running things. Our imbalance pales in comparison to the madness of those who are in power.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You are confusing classic antisemitics
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 12:05 PM by nadinbrzezinski
wtih hate of those from Mid Eastern origin. Attacks on arabs have also increased, but over the last two weeks I have finally learned the lesson from my father

passport check
Money check
Shirt on back check

And it is an unfortuante lesson.

And here you go a link listing ALL attacks since 2000

http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2006/07/mitchell-bard-hiz...

and to save you soem time here is but one example


10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizballah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

By the by, those bridges became valid military targets the moment any military assets (or Hisbollah in this case) rolled over them... at that moment they became VALID, STRATEGIG military targets... as contemplated in the conventions and the laws of land warfare.

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I agree on always having an exit-plan.
But, I already mentioned Mr. Dadon - the ADL doesn't classify that as a terrorist attack because there's insufficient evidence that he was an intentional target of the anti-aircraft gun. Shlomi is right next to the border and IAF aircraft were operating in the area that day.

As for attacking bridges, the destruction must be related to an effort to rescue the captured soldiers. Destruction of infrastructure is only permitted as a matter of direct self-defense, except where permitted by UN resolution. Otherwise, it's an illegal act of aggression.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Ok, I guess then the kids at Qanna were also in the wrong
place at the wrong time.. which incidentally they were the victims of an unfortunate fog of war accident, the kind that happens in every war.

As to destruction of bridges in time of war, it is allowed when they become strategic targets. But what would I know, just enforced them pesky conventions for ten years, and hiding among civilian populations is also a crime... again what would I know?

But I guess we can agree to disagree... you are right, all the Jews dead are nothing and where there at the wrong time and place. This is why I have pretty much given up discussing any of this... and have concluded my father has been right all along...


Passport.... check

Money for bribes and other necessities.......check

Shirt on bac........ check

I cannot feel at home in this country any longer... and I fear Seattle is just a previous of coming attractions.

You say hyperbole, I say history.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I have to run.
Will get back to you later.

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Nadine.
Please respond if you're still around. I'm very distressed to read on another string that you've said you're quitting. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Distressed American declares (s)he's gone, and Ben Burch was tombstoned.

Stay and fight. Stay and make peace. Either way, please don't go.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Ben Burch was tombstoned??!!!????
Thats FUCKED!
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. The Neo-Terrorism Movement


<snip>

And while we here on DU and elsewhere argue over who is the bigger terrorist-- Hammas, Hezbollah, or The IDF, we're missing the big picture-- all of those organizations are mere pawns. This bloodshed has been carefully cultivated for centuries.

As much as I abhor Israel's recent actions, I am even more repulsed by an organization that has the stated intent of driving the Jewish people into the sea. Hezbollah and Hammas use civilians as human shields, and the Israeli government stupidly plays right into their hands, causing untold needless bloodshed, and turning world opinion against them even more.

It's a perverted twist on Ghandi's non-violence program. The "New Terrorism" tactic is to inflict enough damage on your enemy to provoke a massive, disproportionate response against your own citizens-- and thus gain sympathy. They turn their own civilians into unwilling martyrs.

And there are stubborn, short-sighted people in the Israeli government who continue to fall into this trap of being "forced" to cause civilian casualties.



The Israelis know about this trap, and they drop leaflets in Lebanon, and even make phone-calls to Palestinians in Gaza to warn civilians to evacuate before bombing, yet there is still untold bloodshed and death. There is no such thing as a war without civilian causalities.

I do not know how to stop people from shooting rockets at you without shooting back at them. I do not know if there is a "good" solution to this problem. But what I do know is that the current Israeli counter-attacks are counter-productive and that the bloodshed is unconscionable.

On Thursday, Presidential Spokes Liar Tony Snow proudly declared that what we are seeing in the Mid-East right now, is the direct result of American Foreign Policy.

America, Fuck Yeah!

And the recent developments are being precisely choreographed by an administration that sees The Fires of Armageddon as the light at the end of the foreign policy tunnel.



More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. The only bone I have is that this administration
is choreographing anything. The crisis has shown just how little real influence the American Empire has any longer.

I mean the first talks between the two sides were organized by the Germans and the ICRC... two weeks ago. Condy has been told to pack sand by the Lebanese and
the fact george has not called Olmert even once, at least to me says that Condy is tolerated at best in Tel Aviv
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. ,,What is this stuff about Blood Libel?,,
You ask: <<What is this stuff about Blood Libel, Nadine?>>

Nadine is suggesting that when one says that Israel targets Lebanese citizens , its a code for Jews eat Christian babies at Passover.

She seems to sincerely believe it. Thats why shes so frightened. If I believed that Id be frightened too.



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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm giving this a K&R! See also...
Immanentizing the Eschaton: America's Roadmap to The Apocalypse
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

<snip>
With friends like America, Israel hardly needs enemies.

America is the guy in the bar who says to Israel, "Hey, you gonna let him say that about your mother? Here, borrow my gun."

And when it all goes to Hell, all eyes will be on Israel and upon the Jews around the world.

Already, anti-Semitic violence around the world, including in America, is on the rise. Check out The Southern Poverty Law Center at http://www.SPLcenter.org for statistics.

There will be a new Krystalnacht in every country around the world, including America. The American government will call for tolerance and restraint publicly, but will in fact do nothing as rioters run rampant through city after city, burring synagogues and attacking Jews in the streets of America.

And when enough damage has been done, Martial Law will be declared.

The surviving Jews will be rounded-up into detention camps "for their own protection," as we often claimed as justification for interring the Japanese during WWII.

Jews and Muslims will be rounded-up "for their own protection" from the angry mobs of America. The Minutemen, the Klansman, and combat-stressed, over-worked American troops who just cannot be trusted not to stalk and rape little girls and then kill their families.

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I think your basic point about the * Admin. using Israel for its own
purposes -- regardless of the harm that will likely befall both countries -- is well taken.

There is an element of mutual manipulation here, of course. I had a brief conversation yesterday with Minstrel Boy on this very subject: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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