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[slinkerwink]

1. I'll never come on board with Kerry----I'll go with Clark instead

[MercutioATC]

2. Amen to that. Kerry's my LAST choice...right behind Sharpton.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. Bush loves you guys

really good job.

[LuminousX]

6. You're beautiful

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. They didn't say they were for Bush.

They saod JFK was their last choice among Democrats. That choice does not make them pro-Bush.

[cthrumatrix]

135. I'm with Dean to win it all.....never say never

[MercutioATC]

15. I see, Kerry is the only candidate of "real" Democrats?

...nice philosophy...

[Snivi Yllom]

47. Bush fears me

Bush loves Kerry supporters.

[Cheswick2.0]

87. bush loves Kerry and his supporters

that's why so many repugs are voting for Kerry in the primary. They know they can kick his ass in Nov.

[RetroLounge]

94. Well you can be damn sure it won't be Kerry

with responses like that.

[Snivi Yllom]

45. I dunno..Sharpton, Kerry

I would have to flip a coin for that one. Then again, why bother.

[Ninga]

14. If Dean withdraws before the Ohio

Primary on March 2nd. I will weep, I will mourn and then I will take to the streets to get people to vote for Clark.

[pezcore64]

22. ....

Ill be going Edwards if Dean isnt around when my Primary comes along.

[Jack_Dawson]

65. Clark Welcomes You

:toast:

[Turkw]

92. A bunch of motivated, enthusiastic activists, who wouldn't welcome you

Dean's campaign has not failed yet, so don't give up hope. Fight on!

Any other conversation is premature. Heck, I think the Kucinich supporters should be as active as they can be.

[RetroLounge]

93. Yup, Clark before Kerry

eom

[Castilleja]

148. I would have to go with Clark over Kerry also

If Dean is not a choice available to me, it would have to go to Clark, I suppose. John Kerry interests me not at all! Bleah!

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. Those who want them should have spent less time trashing them.

It will be interesting to see which candidate most Dean supporters go to, should Dr. Dean withdraw.

[Fleshdancer]

11. thank you thank you thank you thank you!

I couldn't have said it better my self. And my guess is that many of us will be split between Clark and Edwards.

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. YW!

For purely selfish reasons, I hope more of you split towards Sen. Edwards. :hi:

[Fleshdancer]

20. well now that the media is finally paying attention to Edwards...

I'm sure a good number will split to Edwards. I think the fact that he hasn't been in DC for eons is helpful, plus he's a self made man which is always desirable.

And for purely stupid reasons, it wouldn't exactly break my heart to have to look at Edwards for 4 years! lol

:hi:

[Eloriel]

129. Or no one at all n/t

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

21. It will be interesting all right

We have been called every name in the book, from cult member to silly neophyte to just plain stupid. It will be absolutely sickening to see the exact same people suddenly turn around and deign to treat us like human beings.

[Cuban_Liberal]

26. I've made it a point not to trash Dr. Dean

It always seemed a misguided strategy, frankly. The old Midwestern saying is "Don't try to kiss me on the porch if you didn't dance with me earlier", and I've tried to bear that in mind.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

34. I wasn't talking about you...

There are some specific offenders who have been nothing but complete raging assholes in every post I've ever seen by them, and if they start trying to do anything to court me (actually they've been trying since Iowa) I think I may vomit.

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. *grin*

I know what you mean. I have a 'list' of that sort myself, in the event Sen. Edwards drops out. :P

[DontBlameMe]

85. If Dean is not the man,

my wife and I both prefer your guy. Then Clark, Kucinich, Sharpton, Kerry, Satan, Mephistopheles, Bush....

[LuminousX]

5. Kerry has always been my 2nd choice

But I will not campaign for him. He has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Actually, none of the rest excite or inspire me. I'll punch the chad for the Democrat. That's about it. At least, that is my feeling at this moment. That may change over time.

I don't expect the Dean supporters to move as a mass to one candidate or another. The dynamic that brought us all together was the 'fight and fire' that Dean offered. Dean help transcend a lot of our differences and got us on the same page.

[BurtWorm]

7. I bet you say that to all the allegedly faltering campaigns!

It must have been difficult for you to type that without getting the image of yourself as a buzzard. ;)

I agree with you 100%, by the way. We are to be coveted.

[janx]

107. I just can't shake this feeling...

[janx]

108. Wherever I go, I get the feeling that I'm not alone...

[Fleshdancer]

8. Clark will get my vote if I can't have Dean

And if I can't have Clark either, then I'll vote for Edwards.

[clarknyc]

10. Kerry? HA!

Clark or Edwards for me. Kerry only if he's the nominee and then only a vote, no donation or volunteer work.

[HereSince1628]

13. If we're so coveted, why not take up our issues?

I think maybe Dean supporters are playing this wrong...

Just like Sandra D. O'Conner in the Supreme Court, and traditionally the "South" use their "independence" to swing issues their way...

Dean supporters should insist that the person they follow pick up and best represent issues they think are important.

[LuminousX]

17. You are correct

:toast:

But what are our main issues? For the most part, I was supporting Dean because I preferred his way of doing things over the rest. His agenda was similar to everyone else's, I just knew he could actually fulfill it.

[progressivebydesign]

19. Dean's agenda was co-opted by the rest, that's what you mean. n/t

[LuminousX]

29. For the most part, yes... but they won't be able to make it happen

They are feeding us empty promises.

Every piece of legislation will first be approved by the new set of special interests governing this country. If Dean gets elected, I would be the special interest. Right now, Kerry just sees me as a means to an end.

Fuck that, I am the END. I am the goal. PUBLIC SERVANTS serve the public.

[Raya]

31. Just the OPPOSITE. Kerry's agenda has been so LIBERAL for the past

30 years, that no one could have imagined that the moderate-conservative Governor of Vermont could seriously campaign to the LEFT of Kerry.

Kerry has been fighting on every front that Dean now includes in his
campaign rhetoric.

PLEASE CHECK THE MULTI-DECADE RECORD. It is not secret.

[LuminousX]

52. So, is Kerry Pro-Iraq War or Anti-Iraq War

[lastliberalintexas]

63. Don't you know?

You are supposed to ignore the last 3 years. They were simply an anomaly. You are supposed to remember the liberal champion that Kerry was 15 years ago or so. You are supposed to believe that Kerry, who has caved so much over the last 3 years while in the Senate, will actually stand up for us once he's in the White House. Trust him.

You must have missed that memo! :-)

[LuminousX]

82. What I find funny is no one will say

Why won't anyone put Kerry's position in a simple sentence.

Are these sentences true:
Kerry was opposed to the Iraq War.
Kerry does not believe we are safer now than before war.

Or are these sentences true:
Kerry supported the Iraq War.
Kerry believes we are safer now than before the war.

[arcos]

109. Both are true...

:eyes:

[MAlibdem]

111. Exactly

He's been running for Prez for the last 3 years ;)

[Cheswick2.0]

88. we are not talking "liberal" and Moderate Raya

(Besides Kerry has been anything but liberal lately.) We are talking honest and sleazy. Kerry is sleazy, Dean is honest. Kerry tries to baffle people with bullshit. He talks out of both sides of his mouth and he still manages to say nothing of substance. Dean is the antithesis of Kerry.

[Casablanca]

137. He hasn't campaigned to the left of Kerry. That's the media spin.

Dean is viable precisely because he campaigns to fiscal conservatives and responsible gun owners as well as people who want broader, taxpayer-financed medical insurance. And because his track record backs up his rhetoric, unlike Kerry and Edwards, who have serious flip-flopping issues to try to smooth over.

[HereSince1628]

33. Not quite, but Dean supporters shouldn't be cannon fodder

Just because our man may not win doesn't mean that our organization and energies should be a spoil of the campaign.

We oughtn't be treated like democrobots whose vote can be taken for granted.

If a campaign wants us, by God, that campaign should accept some responsibility to represent our interests.

[GoldenOldie]

35. "....,why not take up our issues?"---AMEN

Dean is the one that forced all the others to debate the real issues that are important to one and all. Dean had the insight of what is truly needed to oust Georgie and his thugs and only then did the other candidates jump on the bandwagon. I will continue to support Dean until he gives voice other wise, and he should be praised for lifting the Dems up again for a darn good fight. I will vote for whoever is finally nominated, but I will vigorously campaign and donate funds (even though I am on a limited income) to the one that is nearest to Dean's passion and issues.

[Eloriel]

130. They CAN'T take up our issues

Our issues are THEM -- the dirty tricks, the dirty politics, the established power NOT in the hands of the people. That's the whole reason some of them are IN this race.

Sure, they can steal Dean's words and message, as kerry has done almost whole-cloth, but they can't BE him. They can't adopt his vision, because it doesn't serve their own special, narrow self-interset: keeping power right where it is.

[Guaranteed]

161. Well said. nt

[edzontar]

16. Kerry will get my vote but nothing more

And only because Bush is SO much worse.


If Dean drops out, I will vote for anyone but Kerry.

If he is the nominee, I'll vote for him, but after that, my relationship to the party will be re-evaluated.

[LuminousX]

18. Ditto. My party loyalty will be based on it's commitment to change

[LiberalTexan]

155. I AM THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

"Ditto. My party loyalty will be based on it's commitment to change"

Just like I AM AMERICA. If I don't like what's going on around me, I'll work to change it. I've worked for this change since I saw that light at the end of the tunnel which was Dean in July 2003 (I was a late bloomer!). After seeing the way that things could possibly be and a shift away from Special Interest Politicians like John Kerry, I'm not prepared to go backwards. I'll continue to fight and be a voice in MY PARTY, the Democratic Party because I AM THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY and I AM AMERICA. I'm not leaving my party and I'm not leaving my country.

[Zinnola]

46. Same here

Kerry is dead last in my book and IMHO will not beat Bushco.

If Dean drops out I will support Clark and then Edwards.

I will vote for Kerry in the GE because Satan is running, but will not send his campaign or the DEM campaign a dime.

[formernaderite]

96. I re-evaluated the democratic party after 1996....

....and saw nothing change. When I finally made my break in 2000 to send a message, I thought much would change. Instead they berated us for daring to step off the plantation. So in 2002, they ran their regular brood of status quo politicos...who lost!!!
2004 we finally see a leader emerging how can unite the progressives and the moderates in the democratic party...namely Dr. Dean. The media and the powers that be in the democratic party( and we all know who they are) decided Dean was not going to conform to their status quo agenda.
Now we have the DNC's wet dream....Senator Kerry. Great, whoo hooo! Again I feel left out of the process. I am unbelievably disappointed and frankly feel ignored by the political system in the USA.
So go ahead and re-evaluate...but if enough of us don't act in a quiet rebellion, we will forever be defined as the kooky Dennis Kucinich progressive side of the party. Tolerated but ignored.

[Duder]

23. Kerry and his supporters...

...have burned a lot of bridges.

[Meldread]

24. I'll never support Kerry.

If Dean drops out then I'll support Clark, and if Clark is gone I'll support Edwards. I'm not even voting for Kerry in the General Election if he wins the nomination.

[NoPasaran]

25. I cannot support Kerry unless he is actually nominated

The IWR vote is a real sticking point for me. I could see through Bush*s lies; I wish for leaders who are at least as perceptive as I am.

I am with Dean as long as he's in the race.

Once we have a nominee, he gets my full support for the GE.

[JNelson6563]

27. Damn straight Pete

I'm already rallying my fellow Dean supporters here in the north to set our sights on various other targets should our Dean campaign suffer an untimely death. We've got folks jumping into their local parties in 6 counties, one take-over pending (apathetic, arrogant Chair--ancient guy who sees no need for growth) and a candidate for a state house seat. A Dean supporter is campaign manager on that race.

Oh yes, the Dean supporters are a coveted group and the local GOP and any Dems that are detrimental to the party are about to find out why.

We are withdrawing from the presidential effort if/when Dean does. We'll vote Dem in that race but that's all. Efforts would be state and local without Dean in the race.

Julie

[Norquist Nemesis]

28. Wisconsin is a MUST win!

Dean says he'll drop if he doesn't win in Wisconson

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/05/politics0855EST0527.DTL

"Howard Dean told supporters Thursday he will be out of the race for the Democratic nomination for president if he fails to win the Wisconsin primary, declaring "all that you have worked for these past months is on the line on a single day, in a single state."

Asked if Dean plans to end his campaign if he loses in Wisconsin on Feb. 17, Dean spokesman Jay Carson said: "It's a moot point because we are going to win Wisconsin. ... This is an e-mail to supporters to let them know how important Wisconsin is to the campaign." "

However, I'm listening to SeaBass right now with a guest who is saying the Dean supporters are more energized than ever!!! (I really hope so!!!!!!). I haven't caught the name of the guest yet.

Here's the SeaBass link: (on Windows Media)
http://www.warpradio.com/popTuner.asp?id=2118

[wabeewoman]

69. This may be true

There were more people at the meet-up locally last night than every before. And they were not wavering!

[CWebster]

30. I would say thus far, Pete, your tactics are batting you zero.

and I do not think many of us can be threatened, seduced, bullied or cajoled. The reason many of us support Dean and his message of hope and reform is exactly the reason we don't support Kerry and his insider machine.

[Name removed]

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[CWebster]

62. Get off it pete

you have been dissing Dean and his supporters for days. Don't pull this crap--I don't respect you for it, don't make it worse.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[Sideways]

121. BS Pete You Are Being Disingenuous

Pandering for Dean supporters support when you have been most unhelpful to their cause is SHRILL. They know it and YOU know it so go build a bridge and get over yourself.

And carry your empty bucket back to HQ.

[Name removed]

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[hackwriter]

32. Forget it. They'd better leave me alone

Oh, I'll be a good little brownshirt and vote for their Skull & Bonesman corporate shill and maintain the status quo. But I'm NOT going to stump and I'm sure as heck not going to give any of my half-of-what-it-was-a-year-ago income to him.

[stopbush]

36. As a lifelong Dem (voting since '72) I know that I'll always be a Dem

I threw away my vote back in 1980 by voting for John Anderson, so I feel some personal responsibility for Reagan getting in. After all, he started this whole repig ball rolling. But re-evaluate my commitment to the Dems? Give me a break. We're stuck in a two-party system, and that's just the way it's going to be this election, next election and every foreseeable election. I don't mean to rain on anyone's idealistic parade, but like it or not, life involves compromises, and there comes a time when even the most idealistic among us needs to take one for the team and vote our heads rather than our hearts.

Ergo, if Kerry's the man, I'll vote for him, but I won't be sending any cash his way, and I doubt very much that the enthusiasm I've had for Dean and his message will transfer to anyone else. Maybe Kucinich if he had even a snowball's chance.

That said, I still hold out hope that Kerry will take it to bush in this campaign. But I'd be kidding myself to imagine that he won't be pulling his punches, becoming more centrist and "presidential" and softening the parts of Dean's message that he's embraced as the campaign slogs on. Once Dean is out of the race, Kerry won't need to worry about the more firey parts of Dean's message and he'll dump it - pronto.

That's life. It will be difficult for any other candidate to re-inflate the Dean balloon once he's out. Most of us look at Kerry as same old-same old. He'll be better than bush, but Washington will continue to be 95% BS-as-usual in a Kerry administration.

[CWebster]

40. For a brief moment there was promise

Kerry was a part of what killed that promise. Mediocrity always prevails.

There have been moments of greatness in time, but often it was those who shouldered that idealism alone and perservered rather than accepting bondage---because that is what it ultimately comes down to--even this hysterical ABB pledge--bondage.

[Guaranteed]

162. Yep...reminds me of RFK...

For just a second there, there was real hope.

[WillyT]

89. Wow !!! --- What You Said !!! --- Exactly !!!

I'm gonna print that out and staple it to my forehead, LOL!!!

:hi:

[GumboYaYa]

38. I already gave Dean my vote.

I plan on calling Wisconsin voters this weekend and participating in teh Dean vsibility event on Saturday. For now I'm firmly in the Dean camp. If he drops out, I will dedicate my efforts to trashing George Bush through letters to the editor and any other way possible until we have our nominee.

The day the Dems pick a nominee, I will be the first person to sign up to help. He will get my money, my time and my devotion. After the convention we HAVE TO unite around beating Bush, IMO.

[Eloriel]

131. No, "WE" don't -- speak for yourself.

You have no right to speak for me.

I'll be uniting around NO ONE who engaged in dirty tricks and dirty politics designed to bring my candidate down.

If YOU want me and many, many others to "unite around" some bozo Bush-lite pos, then YOU better get to that candidate and tell them what they need to do to EARN my vote, and the vote of many, many others.

And in Kerry's case, there's absolutely no fucking way. He once upon a time had a chance -- I'd have forgiven him for his IWR vote IF he renounced it and apologized -- but his sleazy self has gone too far and he'll never, ever get my vote.

[mzmolly]

39. Dean earned my vote. Not so sure about anyone else yet.

*

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

73. That's it in a nutshell

Dean EARNED my vote, and I would follow that man into the gates of hell. For someone else, I would go into the gates of my polling location and that's about it. My vote may be transferable, but my enthusiasm and dedication are another matter.

[Demobrat]

41. Don't even bother

with this Dean supporter and ex-Democrat. No lesser of two evils for me. I'm through voting for evil.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Demobrat]

48. Kerry is owned by Insurance companys. Bush is

owned by oil companys. No difference in my book, and yes, I consider it evil.

[Larkspur]

50. Yes, Dean is a better person than Kerry

Even though both are from patrician backgrounds, Dean is more honorable and humane. He made attempts to build relationships with those not of his class or race and has the attitude of making our institutions work for the people.

Kerry likes to talk tough, but when we needed him to stand up to Bush & Co, he opted out or caved in, like he did on IWR, Prescription drug bill, and NCLB.

If Kerry is the nominee, he'll get my vote and whatever effort I do to help my Dem Town Comm with the 2004 races, but I won't help Kerry's campaign directly. And when Bush & Rove blast Kerry in the press, I'll be laughing AT Kerry, not defending him.

[Demobrat]

59. I can't even vote for him.

Can't even imagine it, and I've tried. Vote for the guy who voted for the war, against money for the troops once they were in Iraq, won Iowa with pushpolling and 5am phone calls pretending to be from the Dean campaign, and makes speeches against special interests, all the time living off of them, because he has a D after his name? Nope.

[janx]

114. Kerry is not part of the solution--he's part of the problem.

And Bush's cronies are going to cream him in the general election should he win the nomination.

[Eloriel]

132. Yes. No contest.

[Egnever]

164. That much better and then some

Kerry isn't fit to clean Deans toilets. IMHO

He is the poster child for everything that is wrong woth politics. Pandering lying saying anything he thinks will convince people to vote for him when running for office then ignoring them once he is in till the next election cycle comes arround.

The thought of rewarding his pandering with the white house out of an overwhelming desire to remove bush from the same office makes me want to chew nails.

I expect nothing but pork from a kerry administration and fear beiong forced to vote republican in 08 just to remove him from office.

[PatGund]

42. It would be sad.....

I have too many friends who are Dean supporters to want to see him drop out. Yes, the practical side of me realizes that the person I support may benefit - but that doesn't make up for seeing my friends disappointed that the person they support is now out of the race.

[Old and In the Way]

49. Pretty funny, isn't it Pete?

The Dean posters here would vote for Clark, a military lobbyist or Edwards who also voted for IWR and the Patriot Act.

But support the candidate that a majority of Democrats are enthusiastically getting behind? Absolutely not! Because, because....he's Kerry. He's a the mainstream Democrat's choice, by a wide margin, so he's "evil". How bizarre. The only candidate that has the experience and knowledge to take on the fascist elements in our government. A Democratic candidate that has a strong, progressive record...no, they can't support him.

They don't want change, they want to lose and complain about it.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[Larkspur]

56. If Kerry was in Zell Miller's district, Kerry would be conservative

Massachusetts is a fairly liberal state, so it's easy for Kerry to vote liberal. And that is what Kerry does, when he gets around to voting, he votes for the easy stuff that will help him win re-election.

Kerry does not believe in his liberalism. It's a facade for him.

[JNelson6563]

77. so progressive during this rise of fascism

Especially signing the blank check for Jr's big Iraq adventure! He's just been a beacon of light in these dark times. Not.

Julie

[Cheswick2.0]

91. progressive? Kerry?

Not hardly. Take a look at his ACLU score card.

http://archive.aclu.org/vote-guide/Kerry_J.html

He gets only a 47 percent.

[Eloriel]

133. Like I said, you just don't get it

Plenty of people have tried to explain it -- it goes way beyond "policies." Way beyond.

I'm not going to try again. I've written volumes about it, and I'm just one of plenty of others who've done the same.

But here's a clue for you. Until you -- and Kerry's campaign, and all the others -- DO get it, you're simply barking up the wrong tree. And, as I said, making unbelievably insulting comments in the process.

[mtlipsc]

154. Heck, the guy hardly ever shows up to vote...

I know the argument goes, his vote wouldn't have made a difference. But what about being there for the discussion? What about being there to contribute leadership? He leaves it all to Teddy. He's like the lazy younger brother in the family who knows that if he doesn't take out the garbage sooner or later Mom will collar big brother and make him do it.

I ask you, how is a guy who with Kerry's money going to relate to Dean's "ordinary people." Did any of Kerry's kids even go to public school?

[Larkspur]

53. I don't support Clark and I don't support Kerry

If Dean wasn't in the race, I'd have written in Bug's Bunny during the Primary.

If Dean wasn't in the race, the Dem Party would certainly lose to Bush in 2004 because Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, and Lieberman had no message to energize people. Kerry has no charisma. I watched his lame attempt at a rally on C-SPAN a couple days ago and it was such a chore for him to do.

[LuminousX]

54. Simply amazing

Good job in earning Dean voters respect and trust with this attitude.

[lastliberalintexas]

57. Nope- I don't trust "mainstream" Dems

It isn't that I want to lose in November- it's that I think the judgment of the supposed mainstream Dems is so far off the mark that they are choosing our least electable candidate. And many of the states that have voted so far have held open primaries, btw. No guarantee that it is actually Dem voters in the first place.

But I guess I should trust what they and the party are doing. After all, it worked so well in 2002, right?

[Demobrat]

61. Change? Bwahahahahaha

Yes, let's go with a guy who works for insurance companys instead of oil companys for a change. That will get us decent health care, for sure.

[LizW]

70. What, you didn't get the memo?

"The Dean posters here would vote for Clark, a military lobbyist or Edwards who also voted for IWR and the Patriot Act.

But support the candidate that a majority of Democrats are enthusiastically getting behind? Absolutely not! Because, because....he's Kerry. He's a the mainstream Democrat's choice, by a wide margin, so he's "evil". How bizarre. The only candidate that has the experience and knowledge to take on the fascist elements in our government. A Democratic candidate that has a strong, progressive record...no, they can't support him."

You didn't hear? We would like to support Kerry, really, really we would. But it's not about experience, or past votes, or records, or the war, or taxes, or issues at all. It's all about electability. The media has shown us the light. Our eyes have been opened. I believe Bush will destroy Kerry in the general election, and I just can't vote for him.

:eyes:

[aldian159]

142. Ummm

If you don't vote for him, he will be destroyed.

Catch-22: Things never change, so I'm not gonna vote. I don't vote, so things never change.

This isn't one of those dumb ABB loyalty quizzes; it's the simple truth.

[dsc]

81. Such high regard you hold us in

I am sure to think better of Kerry after reading that.

[OKNancy]

83. Hate to interrupt the hate....but Clark was not a military lobbiest

in any sense that people would think of the word military. He lobbied for that database thing ( not military) and was very observant about privacy rights according to all accounts.

The only military thing he lobbied for was an electric bicycle and a vaccine.

[formernaderite]

98. This Deaniac would not vote for Clark...

...Dean or Kuncinich...that's about all I can tolerate. I don't think Kerry is evil, he's just not representative of my political ideology, and no I'm not dogmatic when it comes to progresive issues. I happen to be an avid supporter of second amendment rights, particularly with Bush and co at the helm.
However,I do think there has been a campaign to ignore the progressive wing of the party.

[WilliamPitt]

102. DU is not America

and Dennis Kucinich is an honest man.

:)

[sistersofmercy]

105. Very well put...

You are definitely one of the few posters I enjoy reading. I'm so glad you are here to offer your wisdom. Thanks, Old and In the Way!
:toast:

[PVnRT]

120. Knock it off

Maybe it could have something to do with being called cultists, neophytes, naive, deluded, brainless, and sheep for months now by Kerry supporters.

Nah, that's not it, we're all just assholes. Way to drive that wedge in, chief.

[KaraokeKarlton]

140. I wouldn't even vote for Kerry as president if Dean was his VP

I am permanently and irreversibly soured to Kerry. I'd explain why I despise Kerry as much as I do, but my post will only get deleted so I won't bother. But suffice it to say, that I wouldn't vote for John Kerry if my very life depended on it. I'm sure there are plenty more Dean supporters who would agree with me. In fact, if Kerry is the nominee I will be leaving this site because I won't be able to stomach what the place will become.

[Old and In the Way]

156. Thanks!

Well reasoned, level headed, objective response.

Not even if Howard was VP, eh? Hmmmmmm.

[aldian159]

141. By the way some Dean supports sound

they'd be thrilled to death if kerry got nominated and bush won.

Well, people, I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like.

[Guaranteed]

163. You just have a much shorter memory than we do.

Dean WAS mainstream...remember?

[TexasSissy]

55. The Independents (right-leaning) are the most coveted group.

Most of the Dems. will be voting for the Dem. candidate, already. It's the Independents (a whopping 30% of American voters!) that both the Repubs and Dems are vying over.

[CWebster]

66. While holding the base hostage?

How long is that gonna work? As long as they can get away with it? Bondage for those who know the issues, only to have everything decided by those who go wherever they are told from one moment to the next.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. Your characterization is meaningless.

'holding the base hostage' ?


Is someone holding a gun to your head?


lol

[TexasSissy]

124. I'm not issuing a judgment. "Just the facts, ma'am."

[Padraig18]

58. Save your time, PeteNYC.

I will support JFK in the GE, if he is the nominee, simply because another 4 years of * is unthinkable. I will not support JFK in IL's primary if anyone besides Lyndon LaRouche remains in the race at that point.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. The most coveted group for the GE are swing voters.

Not rabid anti-Bush voters. The overwhelming majority will be voting against Bush no matter what they say now.


Personally I don't understand swing voters -- what rational person, for instance, could vote for Reagan twice, and then for Clinton twice? But those are the people who determine elections.

[poskonig]

64. DU Kerry supporters should not have been bashing Dean 24/7 then.

Things got extremely ugly at the end of last year, and I wouldn't blame Dean supporters if they did not want to reward such tactics.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

157. Not me poskonig. Never. Wouldn't do that, not in my nature.

If you doubt, check my history posts, you'll never find me ever contributing a negative statement to any of our candidates. My mom always told me, "Old, if you can't find anything nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all.*" Besides, I'd happily support any one of them in the GE.

I have no problems defending my choice against attacks, though....there is a difference.









*except corrupt boy-kings who are selected pResident.

[wabeewoman]

67. Every Dean supporter I know

has Kerry as the LAST choice on their list. Kerry is the opposite of Dean. I favor Dean, Dean, Dean, Clark, Edwards then Kerry as a last resort. And I won't be favoring anyone but Dean until/IF he drops out. BTW I think we aren't the ones Kerry should be targeting. My neighbor is a republican who is supporting Dean but says if Dean doesn't get the nomination he is going to have to vote bush or sit this one out. Those are the ones who will be lost if Dean loses.

[mtlipsc]

150. Boy, you are so right.

I live in the most conservative part of Vermont -- the Northeastern corner. I've had totally diehard Republicans tell me with a sigh that IF Dean gets the nomination they can't vote against him (or God might strike them down with a lightening bolt) so they'll just stay home. I've had other Repubs tell me that while they never voted for Dean as Governor, they will vote for him for President. Some of them are even coming to meetups.

[mvd]

72. Thanks

It's been hard supporting Dean as my #2, seeing that he hasn't had a level playing field. I'm feeling bad. I could enthusiastically go to Edwards or Kerry, and could also support Clark.

[NashVegas]

74. It's Been a "Rough Wooing"

http://www.gaddgedlar.com/Rough-Wooing.htm


Sorry, you guys blew it. Kerry's people had plenty of chances (as did a few others) but turned it into a pissing match.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. Kerry will defeat Bush

[Upfront]

123. He may

but I doubt it. If Dean quits, I go to Clark, then Edwards. Kerry if he is the only choice between him and B###. S&B+S&B= no change. Special interests call the shots. If I have to vote for Kerry in the end it will be the worst vote I have ever cast!

[janx]

125. Yet now it's time for the hunt...

[JaneQPublic]

78. I got involved in politics because of Dean...

...and I'll probably quit politics if/when he quits his presidential race.

[Demobrat]

79. I think most of us will.

Anybody who thinks they're going to woo us or our checkbooks is wasting their time, IMO. He was right. We're not transferrable.

[formernaderite]

99. Please don't...

...there are many progressive groups out there who could use your support. I know how you are feeling, this has struck me very hard. My entire political outlook had been lifted, particularly towards the democratic party with whom I had been at odds with for a few years. Dean was the real thing. Kucinich could probably use our votes to lodge a protest. Then in the General Election, who knows how many people we will have to choose from.

[dave29]

80. AHEM

Dean will win, so this is all moot.

:)

[LuminousX]

84. Bless you and your optimism. I need a good dose of this each morning

Honestly, I start each day after reading the news, just totally bummed. After a day here with some of my favorite Dean supporters, I go home jacked, realizing that no matter what has happened, we are going to be a force to be reckoned with.

[dave29]

95. I know what you mean

there was a period of time where I just about gave up. Right now, I am determined to fight for what I believe is right for our country. I can't believe so many Democrats think that John Kerry is our answer to George W. Bush. John Kerry is a great man, but Dean has the message and the courage to infuse our party with the backbone it needs to become a powerhouse again. To put us back on a positive Democratic agenda - no more fear-mongering, no more war-mongering, no more caving to special interests... every single one of the candidates has tried to start sounding like Dean, but none of them are Dean. He is an original - and we shouldn't be afraid to embrace that.

Dean took a pretty hard dive, and was down for the count, but I think he's getting back on his feet now, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure he has the energy and momentum to deliver the knock-out punch. It's the least I can do for the guy who woke up the Democratic Party.

[loyalsister]

86. Wish I had a later primary

I would have wanted to vote for anyone but Kerry if Dean drops. But mine was last Tues. I don't think he has a chance in hell of winning. He has become the king of equivocating. His inconsistancies are going to catch up with him.
My strategy is forget national politics for the most part. I'll vote for whoever the Dem nominee is, but my efforts will be targeted on local races.

[Cheswick2.0]

90. nah

not going to support Kerry even if he is the nominee. For the first time since 1976 I will stay home or vote for all the offices except President.... I may just write in Gore for President.
Kerry and his campaign disgust me.

[bloom]

97. I had been thinking I would probably vote for Dean

if he has a reasonable chance. Otherwise - I'll just vote for Kucinich.


At any rate, it seems like it may be worthwhile to have a "Proud to Be a Liberal" campaign. If the fight against Kerry is going to be mostly about his "Liberalness" - it seems like it wouldn't hurt for people to know what a really liberal platform looks like - ie. Kucinich.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foo_bar]

103. you just need to hit the bat

let the avatar of a veiny forearm hypnotize you into a sense of "I Can Do It!" and "Yes I Can!".

[Native]

115. You mean for only $25 I too can have a voice in Washington? n/t

[LuminousX]

104. I love this!

I love being THE PRIME MOVER.

Glad I could help make your decision for you.

[HazMat]

106. Forget about the more extreme elements

of the Dean movement. They secretly want Bush to win in order to prove their point about Kerry.

Kerry will beat Bush without them, and they will not have a seat at the table.

[janx]

110. kick

.

[Justitia]

112. Here's an idea...

...when the GE rolls around, why don't you just ignore us, you know, like you have until now.

Someone else said it brillantly: "same old shit, brand new bag"

Sorry, if Dean is not on the GE ballot, I'm writing him in.

I know that doesn't mean much to you since I'm in Texas, but I have a very long memory, and I'm convinced this party has to get a whole lot worse before it will ever get any better.

And I also agree w/the previous poster who said ABB = bondage.
I'm not a slave to any ideology - right OR left (although there is no left in the Dem party).

Besides, from my Texas vantage point, I am 100% convinced that Kerry would get his ass seriously kicked by Bu$hCo, which is why I'm supporting Dean.

You people are seriously gullible if you believe differently. We'll compare notes again in November :hi:

[janx]

113. kick

[arewethereyet]

116. I don't think there will be any wooing

not because of the quality of the people but rather to avoid the appearance of wooing.

Dean people will be like junkies needing to find a fix and will drift out somewhere.

But if you woo them then you lend the impression that its not your candidate's platform that matters.

You hold the door open for them if they come, nothing more.

[candy331]

117. Well, I am am still with Dean and

will be with him till he quits, and I dearly hope the movement that started with Dean as the spokesperson will not end. We need change in this country, the corporate media is in the drivers seat and the DLC is money hungry. I guess the Democrats will be just as Zell Miller said as much as I hate to give him any credit but seems they are headed for "A National Party No more"

[MercutioATC]

118. Wanna bet? I spent 35 years not being involved in politics.

Dean is what motivated me. I'm no "junkie"...I could easily do another 35 years.

[Demobrat]

119. Boy are you off base.

I got involved in the Dean campaign, not politics, and from what I've seen of politics so far, you can have it. This experience has caused me to leave the Democratic party, not get more involved.

[arewethereyet]

144. that post is the main reason the Dean faithful are unwanted

thought it would be more effective if one of them stated the case for me.

[mtlipsc]

151. This is the first time I campaigned since JFK

Tell you one thing, I'm not going to send a nickle to the Democratic party for the rest of my life. And the satellite TV service I was thinking about putting in? Forgettaboutit!

[BuelahWitch]

122. Our Dean Meetup team has decided if Dean drops out

We'll start having Edwards Meetups. I'll never caucus for Kerry in my state.

[Demobrat]

126. Kerry supporters just don't get it.

Dean supporters chose Dean for a reason, and part of that reason was Kerry's (and others) failure to stand up to Bush when he had the chance. Kerry blew it a long time ago, and that will never change. Kerry=Bush enabler=no dice.

[LuminousX]

128. Actually, that is exactly why I left the Kerry camp

I kept expecting Kerry to be THE champion and all I got was mealy-mouthed wishy-washiness. He would make a great speech saying something like "We need a regime change in Washington" but never once renounced his votes for Bush's agenda.

Sometimes, words aren't enough. Dean offered words that matched my beliefs and then outlined a course of action that matched the words AND the course of action was actually doable. It was refreshing. It made me realize that Kerry was a politician of the past. He should have been President in the late 80's early 90's but not now.

[Eloriel]

127. OMG, Pete

How insulting. How fucking insulting. After what we've been through at DU -- so bad that well over 150 of us formed our OWN discussion forum -- NOW we have your respect? Now that you want not JUST our votes, but our WORK and LOYALTY and probably money too?

Unfreakinbelievable.

Do you imagine for a MINUTE that ANY other candidate is going to get this level of support? Each and every one of them represents exactly what we're fighting AGAINST-- yes, even including that Edwards suck-up, Kucinich, whose only gripe with Dean I can figure is that somehow Kucinich feels that Howard "stole" the support he would've gotten -- and if so, that's pretty delusional too. Either that, or he's every bit a part of The Establishment, OR he got suckered by a smooth-talking Edwards. Those are the only 3 options I can think of.

Each and every one of them -- especially Kerry -- has done his utmost to STOP DEAN, and some of it stuck, as you can see for yourself. Kerry and Gephardt were the worst, and WE KNOW IT. You think we'll reward the dirty tricks and dirty politics with much beside our vote? (and plenty of us won't even give him our vote).

If that's what your candidate (or any of them) is thinking, that we'll all just happily climb aboard and bring our skills, organization and money with us -- boy, has HE got a surprise coming. A BIG one.

The contingency plans among supporters -- and this applies whether Dean is in the White House or not -- is continuing the movement. That's where I predict the energy will go starting either once Dean wins the White House or drops out. Well, it's already begun, actually.

It still boggles my mind that plenty of people, even tho it's been explained to them repeatedly, STILL DON'T GET IT. As Dean himself has said, this isn't just about changing presidents, it IS about changing America. We ARE going to take our country back, AND our party, with or without Dean in the White House.

And I can assure you, Kerry plays NO part in our plans. None. Nor does or could any other candidate.

I absolutely cannot believe the arrogance -- not to mention the gross lack of understanding -- that ANY other candidate could possibly be thinking they'd fall heir to Dean's support. I just have to say again: UNFREAKINBELIEVABLE. I'm just stunned.

Please tell your campaign to think again. This is a major strategic error on their part if what you're saying comes even close to what the official thinking is. Most of the hardcore Dean supporters I know hate Kerry's guts, and for good reason.

[edzontar]

136. Let me second everthing that Eloriel has said....

The Dean movement is already making other plans, and they do not include doing anything for Kerry except, for some of us, holding our noses and voting for him to get Bush out of office.

What I have learned in the past three months on DU is that there are many in the DP who not want my support.

We have our own boards. We have our own networks. This stuff is already underway.

And there is nothing anyone can do or say at this point that will change how we all feel. Nothing.

[PassingFair]

159. Wow, guys!

SIGN ME UP!

I'll for sure vote for Kerry in November, if he's what we're stuck with, but I'm all for gearing up a third, independent party after the dust clears.
I mean it!
F**K the DLC. What I've seen of From and Reed has given me the willies. Those two are like a pair of Renfields, serving some unknown bloodsucking masters. EEeeeewwwwww!
And I have no love for the DNC, either.
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

[SaddenedDem]

143. I SECOND that (e)motion

Kerry will NEVER get my Dean vote. Not now, not ever. His IWR vote sealed that decision.

[mtlipsc]

152. Beautifully said

We don't need your money either...

[Old and In the Way]

158. Take a relax pill, Eloriel.

Life is too short to be this angry.

[madfloridian]

172. This anger is healing.

Some anger is not good, this kind is good. We have it, Dean has it,and the more people talk down to us we have more of it.

We needed the truth, not the lies, and not the war votes. I remember begging the offices of Kerry and Edwards and Hilary not to vote for this war, and they ignored our pleadings.

Some anger is good. Ours is, Dean's is. We needed it as a country, and the others just did not provide it. They pandered.

[madfloridian]

173. Eloriel has a right to be angry,too. I forgot to include her in my post.

Hold on to Dean's righteous anger, Eloriel.
Keep the faith.

[arewethereyet]

160. when Dean said his people's support was non-transferable...

... he wasn't kidding. At least in some cases. The bandwagoners have already checked out.

This the essential reason noone will come calling for Dean's support. Firstly he'll only recommend that people follow their hearts and secondly many will want to try and impose other ideals to a campaign that already has it's own.

What will become of the energy is anyone's guess but I doubt is will come into play in 2004 at least nationally. More locally it could.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Guaranteed]

165. Yup...that 26% Dean got in Maine? Those ain't bandwagoners.

And if Dean drops out, ain't no Democrat gonna get their support until November (except for perhaps Kucinich, and in rarer cases Clark), when, by my guess, maybe half of them will drag themselves to the polls to vote for the DLC puppet.

[arewethereyet]

169. I rest my case

[BruinAlum]

177. I'm willing to wager

that the majority of Dean supporters will vote for the Democratic nominee in the general election, even if it's Kerry. I think you error to transfer your level of hostility for Kerry to the entire Dean camp.

As far as continuing the movement, great. It would be a shame to see it go to waste.

[maddezmom]

134. after today's crossfire

guess the Kerry campaign is looking to join forces with Dean. :)

[Casablanca]

138. The ones that do vote for Kerry will also be packing their bags for Canada

Or Mexico or elsewhere - because it will mean as second Bush term.

[D G]

145. I get the feeling from many responses on this thread

that changing the political landscape is less important to some people than getting their preferred candidate elected.

If your political involvement begins and ends with Dean, it was not worth much to begin with. Sorry, but it's simply myopic to pin all of your political energy on a single human being.

[Eloriel]

146. That's precisely why we're not doing that

Perhaps you missed the clues in my post and at least one other:

We are already involved in some very serious plans and activities to continue the movement with or without Howard in the White House. Oh, no, this energy, hope and commitment were not for Dean and Dean alone, but they WERE for our dreams and hopes and a taste of what is possible when people band together from all across the political spectrum.

Just watch.

[stuzzy]

170. Eloriel....

Where can I find out more about these plans. I'm interested. Where is the special message board? [email protected]

thanks

[mtlipsc]

153. No, Dean just woke up the sleeping giant

However, while I can see why he might want to, I hope he won't disappear the way Bill Bradley and Al Gore did.

[Guaranteed]

167. When Kerry loses, I hope Dean'll make another run in 2008.

We'll take on Hillary.

[Guaranteed]

166. Yeah, but we gotta stand for SOMETHING, you know.

We are still dealing with principles, right? This isn't just a gang war?

[Nicholas_J]

147. There seems to be no hard evidnece that this is factual

Though there seems to be evidence that many who were leaning towards Dean have abandoned his campaign to support other candidates. Pollsters like Zogby, when examining the New Hampsire polls indicated that most of the votes that Kerry picked up there were siphoned from the Dean leaning supporters with no direct effort on the part of any of the candidates to particularly go after the supporters of any on candidate in particular.

[ShadowCabinet]

149. I will vote for Kerry in November.....

..because I want GWB out of the White House more than anything. But as a Dean supporter, I have seen very little to inspire me the way that Gov. Dean and his campaign have.

As a loyal democrat, I'll vote the party line. But I won't have near the enthusiasm for our candidate (if he does turn out to be Sen. Kerry) unless I see more of the energy and commitment to change like the Dean campaign has. The only candidate other than Gov. Dean who has done that for me is John Edwards (although Gen. Clark is a close second).

Given the relentless negativity expressed toward the Dean supporters and the down-right mean spirited attacks (the Kool-Aid cracks are one's I will not soon forget), it's extremely presumptuous to suddenly think this "open-armed" welcome is suddenly going to cause all of us to jump on the band-wagon.

[DannyRed]

168. When I first came on this site

about a year and a half ago, I was pretty much uncommitted.

After watching the anbtics of some, who shall remain nameless, but whom everyone knows and despises, I was turned off to Kerry.

Kerry was already pretty low in my opinion due to his vote for the IWR and the PATRIOT act and the NCLB, and numerous other lame-ass betrayals.

Kerry was already low in my book, due to the fact that I am originally from Maine, and I know what kind of bullshit, arm-twisting, backstabbing CRAP John Kerry has pulled in regards to the Big Dig, in regards to the rail line terminus from Maine to Mass (and the reneging on that deal that has in many ways hamstrung the Downeaster)

BUT, I was prepared to forgive and forget, to chalk it up to the nasty realities of "dealing and playing" in the US Senate (are we all cognizant, yet of WHY so few senators get elected???)...then I read the offensive, arrogant, pompous dishonest spew being sprayed across my screen by a few well-known and well-reviled Kerry Pushers.

They smeared Dean. They smeared Clark. They Smeared Edwards. They Laughed at Kucinich, and snarled at Gep., They Pooh-Pooh CMB, and ignored Sharpton except when Sharpton was engaging in his GOP funded and choreographed eviscerations of the other candidates.

I, personally, began to support Dean. For many reasons. Primarily, when he said on the national stage (paraphrased) "I am tired of having fundamentalist preachers tell me how to live my life"...that and much more.

Has Dean been a perfect candidate? Far from it.

Is Dean a perfect man, or a perfect politician? HA HA no such thing. Dean is a flawed candidate, has flawed positions on many issues, and has, in the past done deals, made compromises, and let down one faction or another.

All polticians are that way, that's their job.

Now that Dean appears to be on the ropes, I am looking hard at other candidates (keeping in mind that there are deals to be made, support to be bandied, and leverage to be gained...) ALSO keeping in mind that it's a two way street, and my guy is a solid second in Delegates, and is solidly second in most of the country, and has more cash, and a better, more solid base of volunteer and grassroots support than the others....

And I am looking again at kerry, edwards, clark, and kucinich.

And I will tell you what, the order of my preference has to do with TWO factors:

1) the qualities of the candidates and their histories and convictions.

Kucinich has quality and conviction and a good record. He's my #2.

Clark has quality and conviction, but lacks political weight and record. He's #3.

Edwards has god and bad qualities, has some weight and a spotty record. I volunteered for his campaign against Lauch Faircloth when I was living in North Carolina. I was a bit disappointed in him. He's my #4.

Kerry continues to disappoint me. He's my #5 by a long margin. Hold my nose.

2) The quality and convictions of the supporters.

As you can probably tell, the SAME people who turned me off to Kerry even more last year, are STILL engaging in their same old tired game of pompous, arrogant, dismissive, insulting, belittling and dishonest crap.

I can't name them, because this post will be deleted. It may be deleted anyway.

You know who they are, and everyone else does too.

Nice going guys.

Just a little hint.

Nader gave you guys a first taste.

Dean administered some more medicine.

Keep it up, and you and people like you will engineer the final and real collapse of the Democratic Party by assisting and helping in the alienation of everyone who is not "on your team"....

Maybe that's for the best.

Maybe not.

But if people get kicked in the face enough times, eventually they will fight back.

Enjoy.

[Eloriel]

171. A little dose of reality

Well said.

[hellhathnofury]

174. Thank god.

Sanity, oh what a rarity around hear anymore.

[hellhathnofury]

175. I'm a loyal Democrat; Kerry ain't much of a Democrat. Hold nose in GE.

Our local Dean people are planning beyond Dean, we've got a Republican congressman we'd like to give hell. Then there's getting rid of Arnold and replacing Feinstein with a Dem with a spine.

I'm going to take this party back.

You guys better be in for a fight, I don't plan to go home easily and I doubt Dean does either.

Giv'em hell Howard!

[madfloridian]

176. Great! One of our group is running against a GOP incumbent.

I am proud of him, and we will back him.