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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 05:28 PM
Original message
on Lieberman, the DLC and the DNC
Much time, effort and bandwidth has been expended of late on the CT primary. Yet it seems to me that for the most part we've been pussyfooting around the real issue.

Or at least one side has (IMHO) - those that defend Lieberman and the DLC.

For many of us "progressives", the 30 year-long pendulum swing to the right is unpalatable. The fact that this excessively long swing has been created, maintained and perpetuated by literally billions of dollars in corporate funding to think tanks, PR firms, lobbies and the compendium of orgs designed to indoctrinate... is very troubling indeed. Most worrying of all is that the "opposition" party (the Dems), instead of opposing the greatest danger to our very sociopolitical system, has largely embraced the "monster". This is particularly true of the DLC, funded in part by the same extreme rightwing influence groups that fund the likes of PNAC, AEI, Heritage, the Swiftboaters and the rest of the quasi-fascist gang.

The Democratic Party has never been "pure" or entirely progressive. Without entering into the now-GOP Dixiecrats, the DNC has always represented a relatively wide ideological spectrum. Until the Dixiecrats joined the GOP, the Republicans also represented a relatively wide political spectrum. The US had, until recently, plodded along on the basis of compromise - and the pendulum swings of the past merely tinged the current political waters a little blue or a little red.

Even the highpoint of the progressive DNC (the New Deal) turned into a pretty bland and shallow reform only noteworthy inasmuch our nation was so socio-politically underdeveloped as to make ANY change stick out like a sore thumb. Between Harding's US and FDR's the difference is between night and day, yet FDR only provided Americans what Europeans had enjoyed for decades. For this we must praise and blame FDR, who was able to initiate his famous legislation in the 1930's... only to reach an agreement with the corporate devils during WWII. In hindsight it seems that FDR and Truman made a tacit deal with Big Business; if you let us keep the basis of our new social legislation (which we promise not to increase), you can dip into the treasury at will (the military-industrial complex) and play a leading role in government.

Yet over the past 30 years this pact has been unilaterally broken. The neo-libs from the Austrian School, the Chicago Boys and the Thatcherite Institute of Economic Affairs joined forces with corps and conservative movements and a true conspiracy took place to turn the world back to the “good old days” of Harding. In other words an environment where the new moneyed aristocracy could hold sway without having to appease labor, environmentalists, demands for social justice, etc. Add the saber-rattling hawks and neocons and we have today’s “conservative movement”.

The American political system HAD been based on compromise and its political spectrum has always been a limited affair as a result. There has rarely been much of an ideological difference between both parties and differences have mostly been on the level of stances regarding problems, opportunities or situations that might be electorally important in any given moment. The parties USED to overlap in the middle and extremes (barring the McCarthy era in relatively recent times) didn’t have a place in our body politic.

This has all changed now. The GOP is largely under the influence of the most radical extreme ever to be seen in the US since the Civil War. Through the spending of billions and the application of modern techniques of propaganda and indoctrination the radicals have seemingly perpetuated the rightwing swing of the pendulum. And by infiltrating the opposition party the radical extremists are covering all the bases.

So what is it with Lieberman and the DLC? They maintain a progressive veneer by taking stances on talkingpoint issues – but in the key areas of economics and foreign policy their loyalties are starkly clear. And by their dismissal of “liberals” they are doing the greatest possible damage to not only the DNC but to the country. They are a 5th column that infiltrates and sabotages the last hope to stop the extremists.

I say that if they are allergic to “liberals”, let them join the GOP where they can do some good by possibly moderating that party. The DNC must draw a line and make a stand for progressive ideals – because if it doesn’t, nobody else will.

MY primary political objective is to separate business and state, a concept that even Adam Smith understood back in the 18th century. Until this is achieved our political process is polluted and corrupted and the talkingpoint issues that make up so much of our political discourse are mere minutia.

Secondarily I wish to be actually represented by a political party. From my experience most “progressives” who take the “political compass” test (http://www.politicalcompass.org/) are almost always “social libertarians” – a concept singularly unrepresented in any party in the US or abroad. We stand for social justice, individual rights, fairness and ethics. Surely if we are many, some politicians will listen….
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. The pendulum could swing so far, and so quickly, as to...break?
The Republican-Democrat dichotomy is nothing more than capitalism/socialism, the two pillars on which American-style democracy is wholly supported. Neither can do the job alone, and I don't see how completely separating business and state will ever be possible. The state doesn't only promote business, but regulate it as well. Both functions are good and necessary.

Good post. :thumbsup:
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Well
When I propound the separation of business and state, I mean:

1. The return to the old legal standing of corporations as opposed to their current situation as holders of all the rights and virtually none of the obligations of citizens.
2. The end of direct corporate participation in the political process through campaign financing and similar concepts.
3. The removal of conflicts of interests between politicians and businesses.

By all means the state should have full regulatory power over business. By all means the state should have the responsibility to foment business - through the creation of infrastructure, etc.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. If we took corporate tax rates back to what they were even 30 years ago
we would have plenty of money to provide limited, equitable campaign financing for all candidates.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kn R
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. I would say overall that the Green party is more progressive than
the Democratic party.

The Democratic party needs progressives and moderates and perhaps some we might even condider conservative to be a meaningful force.

Lieberman does vote with us on many issues, which is better than a Republican that would vote with us on no issues.

Trying to disparage or kick out people that aren't progressive enough for you is a sure path to lasting political obscurity.

The majority of the people do not consider themselves liberal or progressive.

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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. "kick out people that aren't progressive enough...obscurity"
Yeah, right. When the Repugs began their party purge in the late 1960's, they were obscure for how long?

They lost to Carter once and Clinton twice, now they control the entire US government. Some obscurity.

Their move to people strongly supportive of their core beliefs has led them to dominance. Hopefully the fatal mistake of propping up a dimwit will bring them down. But, it won't be their party unity.

The sure path to political obscurity is to try to be all things to all people. When you try to do that you satisfy no one and lead the majority to the proper conclusion that you stand for nothing.

We Democrats need to identify our core values and make certain that ALL elected Democrats adhere to those values.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Well said
Hit the nail on the head.

-------------

Are you as surprised as I am to see so many people vote for the shirt, or at best to base their political decisions on shallow minutia as opposed to real policy? It scares the bejesus out of me.

If McCarthy were alive today he'd have thought that his dream came true.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The Republicans are a marriage of convenience...
You think the neo-cons, hard-core conservative, corporate, evangelicals, and "NASCAR" republicans really share the same core values?

Not a chance. They get satisfaction on the issue or two each of them feels strongest about, and garner the support of the others that don't feel strongly either way on that particular issue.


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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Values have nothing to do with it
"You think the neo-cons, hard-core conservative, corporate, evangelicals, and "NASCAR" republicans really share the same core values?"

Who pulls the strings? Corps. They don't care about traditional conservative values, the bible, NASCAR... they see these as markets that can be captured in order to get across their agenda.

For that matter, the DLC Dems are in the same group for the corps.

"Not a chance. They get satisfaction on the issue or two each of them feels strongest about, and garner the support of the others that don't feel strongly either way on that particular issue."

Sounds just like the DLCers.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I was replying to a post that said it was about core values.
I was disagreeing with that concept.

I think your post is agreeing with me, but with your tone it is somewhat unclear.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Here's the crux
"I would say overall that the Green party is more progressive than the Democratic party."

Probably. But as long as the political system is built around the perpetuation of "two" parties, no third alternative is meaningful.

"The Democratic party needs progressives and moderates and perhaps some we might even condider conservative to be a meaningful force."

This is the classical "expediency" POV. IOW, in order for the Dems to be able to return to power it must be both mildly progressive and centrist... to which you add the conservatives. This reminds me of Cicero's dismissal of Caesar - he was "hic haec hoc". And this is also unrealistic and counterproductive.

The GOP is solidly rightwing. To counter it you suggest surrendering to it or at least emulating it in a "moderate" way. Well, politics are like physics - to counter a hegemonic, well-funded party that has full propagandistic support, one cannot be a shadow of it. If the DNC continues to move to the right as the GOP moves to the right, we are inviting the GOP and its taskmasters to move even FURTHER to the right. And when the "moderate Dems" finally wake up to the fact that they have moved over the edge there won't be any "center" to move back to.

"Lieberman does vote with us on many issues, which is better than a Republican that would vote with us on no issues. "

Many UNIMPORTANT issues, if one considers economics and foreign policy as the very heart of political discourse. When it comes to these important issues he (and the DLC) are lockstep with AEI and PNAC.

Your observation is tantamount to a German socialist in the 1940's supporting Hitler because Hitler improved German healthcare and built the autobahns... turning a blind eye to the truly important issues. Indeed, the issues in hand are world-breakers.

"Trying to disparage or kick out people that aren't progressive enough for you is a sure path to lasting political obscurity."

If surrendering to the enemy because collaborationists can earn a living is good enough for you...

BTW, do you know why political oppression works? Because it creates political apathy - who can be bothered to dissent when you have no chance in hell to win? NOW we're at around 70% abstention, and I'd wager that a good part of that abstention is to be found amongst progressives who are sick of the system and do not feel represented.

Anyways, if I'm given the choice between a party that does not represent me but might indeed win (in order to emulate the policies, sans a few token talkingpoint issues, of the GOP)... and a party that actually represents me even if it doesn't win, I'll take the latter. The former is surrender.

"The majority of the people do not consider themselves liberal or progressive."

That's what happens when the conservatives spend $1 billion/year, every year, to destroy what our parents won. Yet if you reframe what progressive and conservative really are as opposed to how the rw has described them, you might be surprised as to just how the country stands.

Anyways, a country that has a political discourse between the far right and the extreme right has no right to call itself a democracy.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Fracturing among those to the left is partially to blame.
To gain a majority, and thus the ability to control the political discourse we must enlarge our voting base, not shrink it.

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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I agree
Which is one of the reasons why the DLC must go.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well, if you think removing a group makes us bigger...
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 08:14 PM by Ravy
I don't think we agree at on this at all.


I do agree with your sentiments. I wish every American would embrace the progressive agenda.

But it isn't the reality. So, stuck with reality, I think we need to ally ourselves with those who share a majority, or even some of our views. At least that way we can get *some* sort of progressive agenda actually discussed.

Right now we have nothing.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. WHICH group?
I'm not saying "let's kick out voters", I'm saying "let's kick out a group of infiltrated 5th columnists politicians".

"Right now we have nothing."

And if we have the opposition party emulate the party in power we have less than nothing... we won't even have hope.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. We don't have to emulate the goals, but we can emulate the
methods that got them in such tight control.

If that involves some compromise, well, that is just the politics of the situation.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's the difference
The divergent groups within the GOP converged on the cue and in favour of the extremist stringpullers (Scaife, Olin, Bradley et al).

I'd be willing to converge with similar-minded folk who might be more "moderate" - but I refuse to do so as part of a maneuver by the very same string-pullers that did the same with the GOP.
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. What good will enlarging the voter base be if those votes are not
counted? If, when voters go to the polls, they are not allowed to vote, what good does it do to increase the numbers of voters?

From which group shall we draw our "new" enlarged voter base that you seem to be advocating...from the mostly non-existent, mythical, wishy-washy , for-you-today/against-you-tomorrow, center? Who ARE they? WHERE are they?

And who will guarantee that THEIR votes will be counted because our Democratic leaders do not even fight for the committed voter base that it already has. Those leaders certainly did not go out in force in either 2000 or 2004 to demand a new election when thousands of Democratic straight ticket voters were turned away from the polls. If those votes are so unimportant, what then will make the "new enlarged voter base that includes conservatives" instead of the largely progressive committed base more valuable and sure to be counted?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. "the 30 year-long pendulum swing to the right "
"For many of us "progressives", the 30 year-long pendulum swing to the right is unpalatable. "
For many of us Democrats, a leading cause of the pendulum swing is the dishonest, hypocritical and idiotic far left, which has spent nearly all of those 30 years attacking the Democratic party. We're not allergic to liberals--we ARE liberals. What the far left embodies is no more liberal than it is mint-flavored.

And mainstream America doesn't want ANY part of the far left either--their actions and rhetoric is as welcome to most of America as an onion fart. IF we Democrats didn't get the far left tied to our tails, we could do a lot better.

"From my experience most “progressives” who take the “political compass” test (http://www.politicalcompass.org /) are almost always “social libertarians” – a concept singularly unrepresented in any party in the US or abroad."
That's because the "concept" is basically pompous rhetoric propping up mindless selfishness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Jeeze, if you really don't know
you're hardly worth disucssing the issue witrh, are you?

But I suspect this "what could it all mean?" tack is just a bit of rheotrical bad faith.

"Before you go on (IF you do), make an effort to present an argument.""
To whom? Somebody who has no idea what's being discussed?

And I can't think of a more meaningless meme than "social libertarianism"....
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Back at ya
"you're hardly worth disucssing the issue witrh, are you?"

It seems that YOU aren't worth discussing the issue with. You have not addressed the OP, you ignore the premise and stick to the shallow and parochial view of "dem vs GOPer" without deigning to identify, argue or even mention the ideological roots presented.

"And I can't think of a more meaningless meme than "social libertarianism"...."

I agree with the first five words.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I guess I'll just be "shallow and parochial" and pro-Democrat
and keep trying to toss Republicans out of office. And the Democrat-hating far left can kiss my shiny heinie.

"without deigning to identify, argue or even mention the ideological roots presented"
Yeah, I find that someone who can't or won't identify the far left isn't worth discussing "ideological roots" with.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. Yep
God forbid anybody mentions the complicity of the New Left in the poor political decisions of the last 30 years. They took affluence for granted, assuming that it would always exist. Then they got elected and helped to destroy it. And then, what do they do? They blame anybody but themselves for the castastrophe. Always a conspiracy, but never an adult reaction with them.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
38. progressive moi begs to differ
From my experience most “progressives” who take the “political compass” test
http://www.politicalcompass.org
are almost always “social libertarians” – a concept singularly unrepresented in any party in the US or abroad.
That's because the "concept" is basically pompous rhetoric propping up mindless selfishness.

You haven't taken the test, eh?

"Social libertarian" may not be the term used by that organization, but I think what is meant here is those of us who fall into the lower left quadrant on its graph:


The group that developed it is not composed of USAmericans; they are Brits, and they use political lingo as it is used in the rest of the world, not the US.

"Liberal" doesn't mean, in the rest of the world, what it means in the US; in fact, I've never really been able to figure out what it does mean in the US these days, I just recall it as meaning what Phil Ochs and I knew it meant back when, and what it meant was pretty much wishy-washy self-congratulatory skin-deep support of progressive causes as long as they weren't really contrary to self-interest.

As well, "progressive" still means something in the rest of the world, where it is losing all meaning in the US. My understanding of "progressive", dating from my early political involvement, in the 60s, is that it refers to what is also called the "non-aligned left", and in particular to people and groups that work to advance the interests of what is called, in Eurospeak, "popular" groups (i.e. of the people: women, people of colour and other minorities, workers, immigrants, the oppressed and exploited in other places in the world, the poor and unemployed and marginalized) -- people and groups who may not be engaged in party politics, but are political.

Myself, I fall very far toward the lower left-hand corner of that graph (where each axis goes from -10 at the left/bottom to 10 at the top/right, with 0 in the middle):

Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.03

at last count. I value both individual authority over decisions about personal matters and collective authority over decisions about matters that affect the society and other members of it, e.g. economic policy.

Famous people whose policies/values have been analyzed look like this:

(This helps to explain why it is hard for a "liberal" or "progressive" -- or a "libertarian leftist" or "social democrat" -- to support some national liberation movements, e.g.: their leaders and ideology are more similar to Hitler's than Gandhi's when it comes to personal freedom, even though they are, at least in theory, poles apart from Bush when it comes to economic justice.)

-- no "neo-liberal" leader analyzed follows Milton Friedman onto the "libertarian" end of the scale on the personal-freedom axis. Note that "neo-liberal" is used to describe what is called "conservative" in the US.

We're not allergic to liberals--we ARE liberals. What the far left embodies is no more liberal than it is mint-flavored.

Social democrats are in the lower left quadrant. Where does this "far left" fall? Hard to say. It's not like they actually articulate values or even policies very often, on matters that matter, such as are considered in the political compass analysis.

The lower left quadrant takes in people who propose that same-sex marriage be treated in exactly the same way as any other marriage and that reproductive choices be left to individuals, and who also advocate universal access to health care, through collective responsibility for the costs, and varying degrees of economic regulation and public control of resources (depending on where they fall in the quadrant).

"Libertarian", in this context, refers to values and policies relating to individuals' personal choices. "Left" refers to values and policies relating to economic activity and resources.

I would most certainly not be a "libertarian" as that term is used in the US, and I would be insulted to be called that. Of course, I am also insulted to be called a "liberal", although someone in the US who called me that might be meaning something I might not object to; I can just never tell. But I do know that what I am (which is somewhat represented by the New Democratic Party of Canada) really is unrepresented in the official line / electoral activities of the Democratic Party.



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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Excellent analysis
You're ripe for Jost!
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. Despite the bleating of the dlcentrist-zellocrats here on DU
Democrats on the front line have had enough of these right wingers dressed in "centrist' clothing.


One need not look any further than the blatant hypocrisy of the militant dlcentrist-zellocrats here on DU for proof of the third way's hatred of democrats.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. The political specturm is better represented as a circle than a line
With the fringe right and fringe left meeting at a singular point...always intolerant, always threatening to bolt the party, always more concerned with attacking their own party, always more interested in petty name-calling, than in actually accomplishing anything!
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Try
the political compass sometime: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. lol
"We've scrutinised the statements and, more tellingly, the voting records of the hopefuls of some of the parties, in response to requests from many of our American visitors. If you're unhappy because a particular candidate isn't included, spare a thought for the rest of the world who don't have a Political Compass chart for any of their national figures yet ! And please, don't even mention the vice presidential candidates !
Within the United States , of course, real (and imagined) differences between the mainstream candidates are more greatly magnified. However, compared to other western democracies, especially those with a finely-tuned system of proportional representation, most mainstream political activity in the US is concentrated over a more narrow ideological range. We note too that conservative Democrats tend to have more in common with Republicans than with the liberals within their own ranks. "

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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. And that statement might have more credibility if you had ever posted it
in reply to some of the more vicious right wingers dressed up as 'centrists' here on DU spreading nothing but hatred of their fellow Democrats.


snickers...
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. A drop in the Atlantic..
Compared to the bile spewed by the "Pregressive Purists" on this board...

A truly honest look, which those of that ilk are incapable, would reveal that to be the truth!
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. More like adrift in the Atlantic, if you think anyone here missed the bile
spewed above.

You were saying something about a truly honest look? Or wait, was it about name calling?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. When I am accused of being a "Zellocrat"...
Among other names, I am likely to respond...you win... you provoked, I responded...you got what you wanted, congratulations...

Too bad you have nothing constructive to say...




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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. "Too bad you have nothing constructive to say..."
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 09:05 PM by LincolnMcGrath
I guess all that I can say to that is ... snickers?

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skeeters2525 Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
31. Well
There were primaries in 2000 and 2004.

Where were all the great Progressives. Besides getting their asses kicked by Gore and Kerry.

I stand for everything Progressives stand for. So far all I see is a bunch of talk. And when they can't run a candidate they sulk and give us Bush.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Ah, the old DU standard, "Progressives gave us Bush"
Take a bow.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Bow wow
Who let the dawgs out?
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