US intervention

[alvarezadams]

U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis

By DAVID S. CLOUD and HELENE COOPER
Published: July 22, 2006
WASHINGTON, July 21 — The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.

The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said. But Israel’s request for expedited delivery of the satellite and laser-guided bombs was described as unusual by some military officers, and as an indication that Israel still had a long list of targets in Lebanon to strike.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that she would head to Israel on Sunday at the beginning of a round of Middle Eastern diplomacy. The original plan was to include a stop to Cairo in her travels, but she did not announce any stops in Arab capitals.

Instead, the meeting of Arab and European envoys planned for Cairo will take place in Italy, Western diplomats said. While Arab governments initially criticized Hezbollah for starting the fight with Israel in Lebanon, discontent is rising in Arab countries over the number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, and the governments have become wary of playing host to Ms. Rice until a cease-fire package is put together.


(edited for copyright violation . In the future please limit your snips of articles
to 4 paragraphs as per the Democratic Underground copyright rules . )
proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Totally Committed]

1. This is what I was afraid of when I saw them delaying and

delaying a trip by Condi to the region. They wanted to make sure Israel had overwhelming firepower befre she sat down to negotiate. How effing sick is this administration anyway? Do they ever "play a game" they haven't already rigged? Shrewd, perhaps, but is it smart????

Mark my words... this is going to enfuriate the Arabs.

TC

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

47. That's what I'm afraid of

This is one of those nasty and very emotional conflicts where you really have to work hard to at least appear to be extremely sensitive to both sides (even if you're not). This is why diplomacy often involves walking on eggshells so much of the time.

By overtly supporting the IDF here, we're becoming a party to the conflict ourselves. Israel certainly has the right to hit Hezbollah strongholds and hit them hard, but bombing the Christian north of Lebanon like this (including the often anti-Hezbollah TV stations up there), bombing the infrastructure up there, and especially killing fleeing Lebanese civilians (who are often fleeing at the behest of the Israeli pamphlets), all of these are seen as war crimes by a large number of neutral observers here.

Basically, we're inviting a terrorist attack against us on US soil. But maybe that's the ulterior motive here of the neocons. Maybe they figure that a revenge terrorist attack here would create enough dumb anger that they could manipulate Americans into a war with Iran, even make a draft politically palatable. I wouldn't put that past them.

[MADem]

2. Needs to be linked, and snipped down to four salient paragraphs

It's a worthwhile article with some interesting information in it...

[alvarezadams]

3. Sorry...

It's from the NYTimes...

Feel free to edit and repost!

[MADem]

4. I can't do it, you gotta, as it is your post--you still have time

Get the URL from the address bar, and then snip the thing down.

It's worth saving, the article is good. It's just that the rules only allow a fair use number of paragraphs and require a link...and they will junk the whole thread if it doesn't fit the criteria.

[alvarezadams]

15. Again - sorry

I'd gotten it in an email.

I found the link though: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22military.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

[Minnesota Libra]

5. I've got a question for everyone, isn't Iran equipping Lebanon?? Who.....

....rearms Israel other than the US??

The alternative of course is leaving Israel completely without arms of any kind. The outcome of that is a foregone conclusion considering there are 40 to 60 Arabs to every Jew in the area.

Now I'm quite certain if that was me, I'd appreciate someone stepping in and making sure I was armed if I sat in the middle of self-declared mortal enemies.:shrug:

[tocqueville]

6. Israel is attacking, not attacked and occupying foreign territories.

Even without constant backing, Israel has COMPLETE military superiority over its neighbours, not counting nuclear weapons which the others don't have. Countries like Egypt and Jordan, completely dependent on US aid are not likely to attack Israel, unless there are subject themselves to a regime change. Iraq is no threat and Iran's dangerosity is mostly verbal. The Saudis are siding AGAINST the Hezbollah and never really gave a fuck about the Palestinians because they were a secular force.

NOT FUELING Israels capabilities is to put a brake on the hostilities. For the rest Israel has weapons enough.

But some like to entertain that myth of poor little Israel surrounded by neighbours armed to their teeth. It's very useful. 90% of rockets attacks on Israel which end up in the sea or on empty fields, 3 abducted soldiers and no suicide bombing in months are to be compared to the devastation of a country newly striving for democracy.

[Minnesota Libra]

10. If someone shot missiles into my home/neighborhood I'd attack............

...them as well and yes I'd be asking for more arms to make sure I took out all those who were/are shooting missiles into my home/neighborhood. I'd be asking for enough arms to teach my enemy a lesson for a long time to come.

I don't agree with Israel crossing over into Lebanon, unless by using tanks rather than rockets/missiles they can actually save civilian lives. To convince me one way or the other on that one would require an independent military expert, definitely not someone who is pro-Arab or even pro-Israeli.

[tocqueville]

13. Nobody questions Israel's right to retaliate

what's questioned is the scope of the retaliation. Collective punishment is a war crime. If a local gang terrorizes some neighbourhoods in Los Angeles, you don't flatten the whole city. And you don't have to be a military expert to understand that.

Or if you want when the IRA was terrorizing North Ireland, the UK didn't flatten the Republic of Ireland even if Ireland was playing at that time a role of safe haven for the IRA.

Besides it's not a question of being "pro-Israeli" or "pro-Arab". Those "definitions" are meaningless, as much as saying that criticizing the US intervention in Iraq turns you into "anti-American". You can think that the Palestinian or Hezbollah claims over stolen territories and 60 years oppression are not justified, but that doesn't justify the destruction of a whole nation wherenot even half of the population is politically supporting the waring party.

What I know of the remaining 60% Lebanese Christians and Sunnis didn't fire any rockets at Israel, and for the 40% Christians, they were not even sympathetic to the idea. Now they are changing their minds.

[Minnesota Libra]

18. So how does Israel or any country strike back against...........

.....terrorists who are so brave as to hide among the general populace??

Is Israel expected to just set and take the missiles being fired by Hamas/Hezballoh/etc into Israeli neighborhoods in the name of saving innocent civilians?? Can anyone truly be expected to do that??

I truly do not understand what people at DU think is "acceptable retaliation" and what is "unacceptable retaliation" when the enemy mingles among the civilian population.

[tocqueville]

19. Other countries have been dealing with similar problems

UK, France, Spain, Italy etc... they retaliated mostly appropriately during the last decades. Police work is often the best method. It stopped the IRA, ETA etc... you name them. The Hezbollah nuisance is nothing compared what the IRA infliged upon the UK and Northern Ireland during 3 decades. Check IRA on Wikipedia, if you don't believe me. Besides all resistance movements are always infiltrated in the populace.

How come that the most armed nation in the ME cannot deal with it in the same way than other western nations (except USA) is of course a mystery. Negotiation is a good option too.

[MADem]

23. Police work??

:rofl:

Send Inspector Clouseau to question those Iranian bombs coming over the border, hundreds a day???

[tocqueville]

25. How do you think the British ended the IRA and the Spanish

the ETA ? By levelling Northern Ireland and the Basque country ? No by infiltrating and arresting the leaders.
If police work had been used against OBL he probably had been eliminated or convicted bu now.

[alvarezadams]

27. What's more...

... for a few years Spain fought a "dirty war" against ETA, applying terror tactics against the terrorists.

The result was increased support for both ETA and its political wing. It took years to make up the lost ground.

[MADem]

32. The IRA and the ETA were not lobbing three hundred missiles daily

from their civilian neighborhoods into "enemy" civilian neighborhoods. You cherry pick, but you cannot come up with an equivalent. Not all terra groups are created equal, here. These guys are an ARMED militia in force--not guys with pipe bombs, not a single slob with a rocket launcher going after a high-value target like a PM in a London hotel.

And if you think anyone "infiltrates" Hizb'Allah, good luck. It would take years, and what HUMINT asset wants to deal with that shit? The Mossad uses listening devices, and informants.

You haven't a clue what you are saying. And if you were living in Haifa, near that petrochemical plant they are desperately trying to hit, you would be singing a very different tune.

But hey, go ahead and cheer for the murderers of American peacekeepers, advocates of shi'a rule across the middle east, and the perpetrators of violence. Do a little research on your Hizb'Allah "heroes" and then let us know if you still theink their sick cause is just.

[alvarezadams]

35. Talking about cherrypicking

When did the "300 missiles a day" start?

And BTW, don't confuse me with the other poster.

FWIW, if you want to take the wings off Hezbollah, get out of Chebaa Farms ... the last point of contention that they could point to (until this latest invasion) outside prisoners.

The problem that the pro-Israelis seem to have is that they don't realize that for retalliation to be even remotely "legal" it has to be proportionate. Israel's rw is doing the same thing, time and time again, taking the short-term and "easy" way out (military), which invariably leads to failure and escalation.

"You haven't a clue what you are saying."

YOU do? Ever been close to a bomb attack? I have.

"But hey, go ahead and cheer for the murderers of American peacekeepers, advocates of shi'a rule across the middle east, and the perpetrators of violence. Do a little research on your Hizb'Allah "heroes" and then let us know if you still theink their sick cause is just."

And now we have the typical conservative retort, similar to the "you're with us or you're against us". So go take your little jingoist rythmstick and waive it at someone else:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/alvarezadams/14

[MADem]

39. Chebaa Farms is SYRIA's problem, not Lebanon's and not Hizb'Allahs

The UN has said so.

Go ask Kofi Annan about Shebaa if it bothers you so much. But it isn't HizbAllah's problem, though they are trying to make it a cause juste to incite their followers. Does Mexico get involved when we have a border beef with Canada?? Get real.

Israel's May 2000 full withdrawal from Lebanon should have removed the primary grievance of Hizbullah against the State of Israel. But Hizbullah then articulated new claims to the Shebaa Farms, an area of Lebanon that was transferred by Beirut to Syria in the 1950s and taken by Israel in 1967, as part of its entry into the Golan Heights. The UN defines the Shebaa Farms as part of the Golan area and hence an issue for future Israeli-Syrian negotiations. Nevertheless, since Israel's Lebanon pullout, Hizbullah has conducted ten separate attacks against Israeli forces in the Shebaa Farms area. Israel responded to the June 29, 2001, attack on July 1 by destroying a Syrian radar station in eastern Lebanon. For three months afterward the Shebaa Farms area remained quiet; Syria's control over Hizbullah was patently demonstrated. http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-9.htm

In the past 10 days, more than 1,000 missiles have struck villages and cities in northern Israel, causing 30 percent to 50 percent of the population to flee, according to officials.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/middleeastreports/s_462962.html

Nothing to them, eh? Let's check the range of these beauties:

http://www.latimes.com.nyud.net:8090/media/graphic/2006-07/24465943.gif

And though I do not claim any Rambo skills, I have been in close proximities to two bombings (missed one by about three minutes; the people I was with all ended up in pieces on the street, the second blew the security gate off my front door and I missed out on a third by sheer luck, lateness and laziness). I've been shot at by the Pasaradan, the predecessors of these murderous pigs, and I know what they are about. So please, do not lecture ME about bombings, most particularly those of the URBAN variety. It's an education I do not need.

And though I 'waive' nothing, I will gladly wave goodbye to you.
:hi:

[alvarezadams]

42. Get real

The "UN says so"... No matter that it "said so" at the behest of the US and Israel, and forget about what Lebanon itself says about it... not to mention Syria.

Lebanon claims it, Syria disclaims it. Israel prefers to see the area as part of Syria... wonder why?

I doubt it since you seem to be prone to faith-based thinking.

Bye!

[alvarezadams]

43. Shaba

"To a series of questions about the Shaba’a Farms, the Prime Minister said that that was a plot of land to the south-east of Lebanon with a total area of about 42 square kilometres. That land was, in fact, Lebanese territory, and many times in the past decade, Lebanon had exercised its sovereignty over that plot of land. The Israelis occupied that part of Lebanon, starting in 1967 until 1989.



He said that the situation was as follows: Lebanon said that the land was Lebanese and the Syrians said invariably that it was Lebanese, but they fell short of making any effort to sign the necessary documentation or maps for the United Nations depositary, to enable the Organization to recognize that land as Lebanese. Meanwhile, the United Nations considered that land to be Syrian and, accordingly, that was the subject of resolution 338 (1973). The Lebanese, however, considered the land to be Lebanese and, therefore, subjected to resolution 425 (1978)."

http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2006/060421_Lebanon.doc.htm

[alvarezadams]

44. Lebanon takes border plea to UK

Wednesday, 10 May 2006

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora says he has asked Britain to help put pressure on Israel to withdraw from the disputed Shebaa Farms area.

Mr Siniora made the plea during talks in London with the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair.

Lebanon claims the area as its territory but according to the UN, the area is part of the Syrian Golan Heights occupied by Israel since 1967.

UK officials said the leaders spoke about a number of regional issues.

Mr Siniora, who is a member of the anti-Syrian coalition in Lebanon, said he asked Mr Blair "to exert pressure on Israel so that the Israelis can withdraw from Shebaa Farms".

He said he had also asked for help in getting the UN to recognise the area as Lebanese rather than Syrian.

Mr Blair's office said only that the two men addressed several regional issues and that any peace in the Middle East must come through a negotiated solution, Reuters news agency reported.

The water-rich Shebaa Farms lie at the convergence of Israeli, Lebanese and Syrian territory.

Israeli troops have retained control of the area since they withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000.

Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas conduct sporadic raids against the Israeli forces there. They and the Lebanese government say the Shebaa Farms should have been included in the withdrawal.

Israel - backed by the UN - maintains the zone was captured from Syria in 1967 and its fate should be determined via the stalled Syrian track of peace talks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4757151.stm

[alvarezadams]

45. Peace?

Monday, 8 May 2006

"The Lebanese prime minister told the BBC he was confident that if Israel withdrew from the area, Hezbollah, the anti-Israeli guerrilla movement, would finally disarm and the Lebanese army would be the sole armed body in the country.

Mr Siniora said international support was crucial on that and other issues.

"We want to empower Lebanon so that we will have an Israeli withdrawal empowering the internal security, empowering the Lebanese economy. This is for all the Lebanese. We want to seek the support of our friends around the world for all Lebanon," Mr Siniora told the BBC. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4984062.stm

[MADem]

46. Get real yourself, ya rude putz

Syria does NOT disclaim it. They STOLE it from Lebanon.

Here's how it went down. Look it up. Lebanon CLAIMED the land. SYRIA stole the land. Israel invaded the Golan, and now they OCCUPY the land. The UN ruled that the SYRIAN land grab was hunky dory. That went down in the 1950s, mind you--many Lebanese governments ago.

If Lebanon has a problem with Shabaa, they need to talk to SYRIA, get Syria to concede the territory, and then approach Israel about returning it. BUT THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT:

It should be noted here that the borders between the Syria, Lebanon and Israel were confirmed internationally in 1949 after the creation of the sate of Israel. And from that time, the Armistice Agreement between Lebanon and Israel became the working modality for the borderline between the two countries, and the Engineering Corps of the Lebanese Army drew the borderline under the supervision of international observers in the early 1960s. Since 1924, the Shebaa Farms were treated as Lebanese territory, but Syria refused to recognize this fact, as it refused indeed to recognize the independence of Lebanon as a sovereign country. In the 1950s, Syria seized the Shebaa Farms and kept the territory under its control until Israel occupied the Farms - along with the Golan Heights - in 1967. Syrian control of the Farms was an anomaly because the inhabitants and properties were Lebanese, but the administration and authorities in charge were Syrian. Lebanon did not accept Syria's control of the Farms but did not seek redress at the United Nations or with the Arab League, out of fear of adding complexity to the issue. Still, the Syrians remained obstinate in maintaining their grip on the territory and never paid much attention to Lebanon's claims....During the Six-Day War on June 6, 1967, Israel invaded and occupied the Golan and with it the Shebaa Farms. UN resolution 242 issued by the Security Council on November 22, 1967 did not mention the Shebaa Farms as Lebanese territory. It did, however, clearly state that all territories occupied by Israel on the Syrian-Israeli front are Syrian territories.

Lebanon was not a participant to the war, and did not at the time claim in any official manner that Israel had occupied part of its territory.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=2219

The above was written by a Lebanese guy, FWIW.


If Lebanon really wanted their land back, they'd petition for it. Not permit or encourage the deployment of Iranian proxy militiamen to kill and abduct soldiers and fire rockets into Israel. And I don't think they did do that. I think these Iranian proxies will use ANY excuse to murder Jews...and you seem to think that is OK. Your attitude appears to be that it's just fine for a bunch of terrorists to fire missiles at a nation over real estate that they have no title for.

Your lecturing is tiresome and inaccurate. Do some reading. If anyone has a faith-based approach to this matter, it's you. You have faith that EVERYTHING Israel does is bad, no matter what, no matter how they are provoked. And faith that murderers of hundreds of Americans serving as UN Peacekeepers in Lebanon are somehow on the side of the angels. Forgive me if I think your positions and arguments are, to put it generously, complete and total horseshit.

[alvarezadams]

48. Funny

Initially I had a gut feeling about what I was up against ... a feeling reinforced with every one of your posts.

You automatically bunch me with the anti-Israelis as you spew your pro-Israeli spiel. You obviously see only one side of the story, the side with the most propaganda bucks.

Feel free to ignore me.

[MADem]

49. Well, you certainly believed what you averred, and snarkily tried to

correct me, when you were in error. You eagerly parrotted the Hizb'Allah limpdick excuses and fictions with regard to Shabaa, which ten minutes of research would show you are problematic, and then you get huffy when I make a reasonable assumption that the spreading of terrorist propaganda might ally you with the propagandists. Heckuvajob, way to go!

And if you knew anything about me, you'd know I am capable of criticizing Israel, particularly with regard to their efforts in resolving their two-state issues with Palestine. However, when a bunch of terrorists, terrorists who have killed hundreds of Americans, BTW, are attacking them, I don't have a problem with their defending themselves aggressively, to the point where the attackers will think three times before trying to pull that shit again.

[alvarezadams]

50. Correction

"You eagerly parrotted the Hizb'Allah limpdick excuses and fictions with regard to Shabaa,"

No, I literally quoted the statements of the president of Lebanon, regarding Shabaa. Yet you see fit to attribute the statements - and their context - in a different sense. This is intellectually dishonest.

[MADem]

51. You knew it was false, you knew the UN position, you knew that

Lebanon had never pressed a formal claim, EVER...since Syria took the land in the fifties.

Or if you didn't know it, you should have. Instead, you take a toss-off remark and ascribe to it weight it does not have and does not deserve.

The President of Lebanon knows who he needs to talk to if he wants Shabaa back--and that person is Bashar Al Assad. NO ONE ELSE.

[alvarezadams]

52. I revert to my links

"Lebanon had never pressed a formal claim, EVER...since Syria took the land in the fifties. "

Non sequitor. The only reason why I mentioned it is because Siniora did - in fact he did so within the context of taking away some of the legitimacy of Hezbollah.

Again, you choose to interpret my posts in a way that runs against what I expressed. You do so out of passion and are quick to draw the "anti-Israel" card as you show your colours as a gung-ho pro Israel defender.

I revert to a journal posting of mine to show my POV: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/alvarezadams/16

"The President of Lebanon knows who he needs to talk to if he wants Shabaa back--and that person is Bashar Al Assad. NO ONE ELSE."

That's just naive.

You seem to have a similar mindset as conservatives and neocons. Perhaps it is merely partial and only applicable to Israel - but you seem to see things as black and white.

There's no such thing as absolute "good guys" and "bad guys". Nobody wants to be a terrorist because it is an attractive proposition, nobody wants to go to war because it is kewl. They do so because they lack the wherewithal to do otherwise.

I oppose terror PERIOD. By Hezbollah, by the Israelis, by the US, by ETA, by "Bomber" Harris.

I also recognize that perception is 9/10ths of reality for most people. Thus my statements regarding Shabaa - Hezbollah and an awful lot of Lebanese, including their president (once supported by the US), seem to feel that it is a meaningful issue. The legality is thus a moot point, especially since law is conspicuous in its absence on all sides of the bomb line.

Meanwhile, I hold purportedly democratic and law-abiding regimes to a higher level of morality. Israel is purportedly both, rarely acts as either. More often than not it lowers itself to the level of the criminals it is fighting against - and we see the results.

So get off your goddam high-horse for a minute. Take a deep breat, exercize that classic "liberal" trait of empathy, forget that you watched and were moved by "Exodus" or any number of other philo-Israeli movies, and get a grip.

[MADem]

53. And I revert to mine

There are no such thing as good guys and bad guys, with the exception of Hizb'Allah militia. They ARE bad guys. I don't forget or dismiss what they did. I mourn the 241 they killed with a truck bomb, Rich Higgins, SW2 Stetham, and the rest.

Loved your not-so-subtle dig: You seem to have a similar mindset as conservatives and neocons. Heckuvajob, there Brownie!

Your last paragraph tells me all I need to know about you, and it ain't nice. Philo-Israeli movies, indeed.

[alvarezadams]

54. Baloney

If you were a Lebanese Muslim living in Beirut or Sidon, you'd have a totally differen tperspective.

"Your last paragraph tells me all I need to know about you, and it ain't nice. Philo-Israeli movies, indeed."

Enjoy pigeon-holing me. Few have been successful. Will you?

[MADem]

22. Bad analogy

No one was raining bombs on London FROM Dublin. And the ones causing trouble in Northern Ireland LIVED there. Remember Bloody Sunday? http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/

These neighborhoods are being hit because the surveillance assets are showing that the rockets are being launched from those precise buildings--the rooftops, the gardens, the streets. They are trying to take out the weapons caches AND the individuals doing the launching with one strike.

[tocqueville]

26. OH no, they had even Katjusha attacks against the PM

and the British Parliament

1991: Mortar attack on members of the British Cabinet and the Prime Minister, John Major in Cabinet session at Number 10 Downing Street at the height of a huge security clampdown amid the Gulf War is launched by the IRA. The Cabinet collectively got under the table to protect themselves.
1991: Two IRA members are killed in St Albans when their bomb detonates prematurely.
28 February 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge railway station injuring 29 people.
10 April 1992: A large bomb explodes at 30 St Mary Axe in the City of London killing three people and injuring 91. Many buildings are heavily damaged and the Baltic Exchange is completely destroyed.
12 October 1992: A device explodes in the gents' toilet of the Sussex Arms public house in Covent Garden killing one person and injuring four others.
1992: Eight builders are killed by an IRA bomb on their way to work at an army base near Omagh.
1993: Two IRA bombs at opposite ends of a shopping street in Warrington, timed to go off within minutes of each other, kill two children.
1993: The PIRA detonates a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, which kills two and causes around £350m of damage, including the near destruction of St Ethelburga's Bishopsgate.
1993: The Shankill Road bombing at a fish and chip shop underneath a UDA office on the Protestant Shankill Road in Belfast detonates prematurely, killing ten, including one of the bombers and two children.
8 March 1994: Heathrow Airport, four mortar shells were fired toward Heathrow Airport from a car at night following telephone warnings in the name of the IRA, but police said none of the shells exploded and no injuries were reported.
10 March 1994: Heathrow Airport evacuated staff and passengers from Terminal Four and closed its southern runway after the second attack on the airport in 30 hours. No one was hurt when four mortar shells were fired.
13 March 1994: Heathrow Airport, the IRA launched their third mortar attack on Heathrow defying tightening security. They fired four mortar bombs from a heavily camouflaged launcher buried in scrubland close to the southern perimeter. Later that night both Heathrow and Gatwick airports were closed for 2 hours after renewed coded telephoned bomb threats were received.
1 September 1994: The PIRA declares the first of two ceasefires in the 1990s.
This postbox in Manchester survived the IRA bombing in 1996.10 February 1996: The IRA ends its 1994 ceasefire, killing two civilians in a bombing adjacent to the South Quay DLR station in London's Docklands.
15 February 1996: A 5 lb bomb placed in a phone booth is disarmed by Police on the Charing Cross Road in London.
18 February 1996: An improvised high explosive device detonates prematurely on a bus travelling along Aldwych in central London, killing Edward O'Brien, the IRA operative transporting the device and injuring eight others.
15 June 1996: The IRA detonates a 3,300 lb (1,500 kg) bomb in Manchester, injuring 206 people and damaging 70,000 square metres of retail and office space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_IRA_Actions

check the whole list and you'll see that the Hezbollah and even Al Quaeda are fucking AMATEURS compared to what diverse European resistance or terrorist movements have "accomplished" during the last century. People have short memory. If the US had been attacked by the IRA they'll already had nuked half the planet by now. 9/11 is the only really "successfull" attack. A bit "TOO successfull" in my opinion to come from those halfwits. But that's another story.

[MADem]

30. Those mortars were not launched from a Dublin neighborhood

where they could be traced back. And the Brits did not have air assets flying overhead to track and respond.

Your anaolgy still sucks. There was no live battlefield in your examples.

[tocqueville]

37. No they were launched from a truck parked nearby

So if the Hezbollah hits the Knesset from a truck parked nearby, that's OK ?

My point simply is that an organisation like IRA was far more efficient than the Hezbollah.

The Provisionals have had extensive contacts with foreign governments and other illegal armed organisations.

Libya has been the biggest single supplier of arms and funds to the PIRA, donating large amounts of both in the early 1970s and mid 1980s. (See also)

The IRA has also received weapons and logistical support from Irish Americans, in the USA especially the NORAID group.(See also) Apart from the Libyan aid, this has been the main source of overseas IRA support. U.S. support has been weakened by the War against Terrorism, and the fallout from the events of the 11 September 2001. US Political backing for Sinn Féin was badly damaged by the Robert McCartney killing in late 2004. McCartney, a Catholic, was killed by IRA members in a pub brawl. Other IRA members destroyed all the forensic evidence on the scene and intimidated the witnesses. The McCartney family have publicly denounced the IRA.

In the United States in November 1982, five men were acquitted of smuggling arms to the IRA after they revealed the CIA had approved the shipment (although the CIA officially denied this). There are allegations of contact with the East German Stasi, based on the testimony of a Soviet defector to British intelligence Vasili Mitrokhin. Mitrokhin revealed that although the Soviet KGB gave some weapons to the Marxist Official IRA, it had little sympathy with the Provisionals <37>. Another more recent allegation is that the Provisional movement has been aided by the Cuban DGI. It has received some training and support from the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) and has had some contact with Hezbollah. According to the Provisional IRA, the organisiation has also had fraternal contacts with the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, Basque group ETA and various South African groups. Since the late 1970s it is believed by many intelligence agencies that the IRA has shared bomb making and urban warfare tactics with a list of terror groups including: The Basque Separatist Movement (ETA), South African ANC and the PLO. In 2001 three IRA bomb experts were caught allegedly training Colombian guerrillas, (the FARC), in bomb making and urban warfare techniques 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army

The British didn't invade Lybia for that or flattened the countryside of Northern Ireland either - where most of the provisionals were hiding.

[MADem]

40. If they hit the Knesset from a truck, the Israelis would crush the TRUCK

Your point had nothing to do with the efficiency of the IRA. Your point was that somehow the IRA's tactics and Hizb'Allah's should be viewed as equivalent, but they ARE NOT. The IRA did not launch missiles from Catholic neighborhoods, schools, churches and so on, invite a response from the UK military, and then photograph dead Catholic babies and mothers to tug at heartstrings. The Irish did not involve their families in their war in the fashion that Hizb'Allah is doing. They are playing the Martyrdom Mentality to the MAX.

You are trying to move the bar, and change the point. That's not acceptable.

And as for Libya, they're now our new best friend. You will have to ask George why that it so, but it could be that since oil has risen in price, it's profitable to get more aggressive with those odd oil assets Muamar Khaddafi is sitting on.

[alvarezadams]

28. Aw come ON

"These neighborhoods are being hit because the surveillance assets are showing that the rockets are being launched from those precise buildings--the rooftops, the gardens, the streets. They are trying to take out the weapons caches AND the individuals doing the launching with one strike."

The Beirut Airport runways? The Lebanese national teevee?

Get a grip, dude, and learn to discern between propaganda and reality.

[MADem]

31. The airports were hit because they did not want those kidnapped

servicemembers to end up on display in Iran. AND they didn't want more missiles to fly in via Syria. Which is how many were coming in, with the aid of shi'a Lebanese Army servicemembers who moonlight for the militia.

The TV was hit because the cellphone towers are ON the tv transmitter tower. They want to disrupt the Hizb'allah means of communication, which is by CELL PHONE.

If anyone needs to get a grip, and understand how warfare is conducted, it's you. I sure as hell wouldn't want you in charge of US warplanning. You don't know what you are talking about and you spout your absurdities smugly, to boot.

[alvarezadams]

36. Gawd

You swallow ANY justification, don'tcha?

"You don't know what you are talking about and you spout your absurdities smugly, to boot."

Pot, kettle, black.

[MADem]

41. That was an astoundingly lame rejoinder to my assertions of FACT

A slight step up from "Nanny, nanny, boo, boo"....but only a slight step.

[tocqueville]

7. Lebanon is not the Hezbollah

Lebanon's army is mostly equipped and trained by the US, France, UK and Italy. They are not fighting Israel (so far).

The Hezbollah receives aid from Iran and Syria with light weapons, mortars and missiles (the latest with mostly little nuisance capacity). Their militia amounts to up to 10 000 men.

the IDF :

Israeli military technology

The IDF is considered to be one of the most high-tech armies in the world, possessing top-of-the-line weapons and computer systems, Some of it American-made or indigenously modified (such as the M4A1 assault rifle, F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon jets and Apache helicopter). Israel receives more than US$2 billion per year in military aid from the United States, and much of it requires that American equipment be purchased with it. In spite of this however, Israel also has developed its own independent weapons industry. Weapons such as the Merkava battle tank, Kfir jet series, and various small arms such as the Galil assault rifle and Uzi submachine gun have all proven to be very successful.

The IDF also has several large internal research and development departments, and it purchases many technologies produced by the Israeli security industries including IAI, IMI, Elbit, El-Op, Rafael, Soltam and dozens of smaller firms. Many of these developments have been battle-tested in Israel's numerous military engagements, making the relationship mutually beneficial, the IDF getting tailor-made solutions and the industries a very high repute.


Main Israeli developments

An Israeli Merkava main battle tank.Israel's military technology is most famous for its guns, armored fighting vehicles (tanks, tank-converted APCs, armoured bulldozers etc) and rocketry (missiles and rockets). Israel also designs and in some cases it has manufactured aircraft (Kfir, Lavi; both discontinued) and naval systems (patrol and missile ships). Much of the IDF's electronic systems (intelligence, communication, command and control, navigation etc.) are Israeli-developed, including many systems installed on foreign platforms (esp. aircraft, tanks and submarines). So are many of its precision-guided munitions.

Currently Israel is the only country in the world with an anti-ballistic missile defense system ("Hetz", or Arrow, developed with funding and technology from the United States), though an operational system is in place protecting the Moscow area. Israel is also working with the USA on development of a tactical high energy laser system against medium range rockets (called Nautilus THEL).

Israel has the independent capability of launching reconnaissance satellites into orbit (a capability which only Russia, the United States, the United Kingdom, France, the People's Republic of China, India and Japan hold). Both the satellites (Ofeq) and the launchers (Shavit) were developed by the Israeli security industries.

Israel is also said to have developed an indigenous nuclear capability, although no official details or acknowledgements have ever been publicized. On the issue of this nuclear weapons program, Israel chooses to follow a policy of deliberate ambiguity.


Specific weapon systems
Small Arms
Tavor TAR-21 bullpup assault rifle
"Refaim" advance rifle grenade
Galil assault rifle
Uzi submachine gun
Micro Uzi
Para Micro Uzi
Mini Uzi
Uzi pistol
IMI Negev light machine gun
Jericho 941 "Baby Eagle" handgun
T.C.I. M89-SR semi-auto bullpup sniper rifle (based on a M-36 Sardius rifle)
SR-99 semi-auto sniper rifle
RCWS - remote control weapon station
OWS - overhead weapon station (also known as "Mag Refael")
Corner Shot (Joint U.S-Israeli)
Armoured Fighting Vehicles
Merkava - Main battle tank
Mk 1
Mk 2
Mk 3
Mk 3 Baz (improved armour and fire control system)
Mk 3 LIC (modified for low intensity warfare, i.e. urban warfare).
Mk 4
Nammer ARV - Merkava armoured recovery vehicle
Magah (upgraded M60 Patton) - Main battle tank
Multi purpose tank-chassis based IFVs/CEVs
Puma - Combat engineering armoured vehicle
Achzarit - APC (armored personal carrier)
NagmaShot - an APC based on the Centurion tank
Nagmachon
Nakpadon
Caterpillar D9 up-armored bulldozer military version
Machbet - self propelled anti aircraft system
Self-propelled artillery systems
All-terrain vehicles and other wheeled vehicles
Abir
Sufa
Desert Raider
Rockets and Missiles
Gil/Spike - ATGM (anti-tank guided missile)
Shifon - ATGM
Jericho missile - ballistic missile
Shavit - satellite launch missile, based on Jericho
Rafael Python 4 and Rafael Python 5 - advance air-to-air missiles
Popeye (AGM-142) - advance guided air-to-ground missile
Gabriel anti-ship missile
Hetz (Arrow missile) - part of a ballistic missile defense system, able to shoot down ballistic missiles
Electronics and High-Tech
Oren Yarok (Green Pine) - radar system used by the Arrow system
Phalcon - intelligence gathering systems installed on large airplane
Satellites
Ofeq - reconnaissance satellite
Amos - communications satellite (civilian, used by the IDF)
Katbam - unmanned naval vehicle
LITENING targeting pod - enhance fighter jets offensive capabilities
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle and General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jet electronic systems
Barak Zoher - advance tank firing system, installed on Merkava tanks
Dolphin class submarine electronic and warfare systems
Aircraft platforms
Nesher fighter jet (upgraded Mirage V)
Kfir fighter jet (upgraded and improved Mirage V)
Nammer fighter jet (Mirage III)
Lavi fighter jet (original design, prototype flown but project cancelled due to cost)
Arava STOL medium transport aircraft
Mazlat (UAV) - unmanned small aerial vehicle
Naval platforms
Dabur/Dvora/Tsir'a/Yatush patrol craft
Sa'ar-class missile boat
Saar 2 class missile boats
Saar 3 class missile boats
Saar 4 class missile boats
Saar 4.5 class missile boats
Saar 5 class missile boats

Nuclear capability
See also: Israel and weapons of mass destruction
It is generally believed that Israel has nuclear weapons. The weapons are thought to have been developed at the Negev Nuclear Research Center's nuclear reactor since the 1960's. The first two nuclear bombs were probably operational before the Six-Day War and Prime Minister Levi Eshkol ordered them armed in Israel's first nuclear alert during that war. It is also believed that, fearing defeat in the October 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis assembled thirteen twenty-kiloton nuclear bombs.

The current size and composition of Israel's nuclear stockpile is uncertain, and is the subject of various estimates and reports. FAS estimates that Israel probably has 100-200 nuclear warheads, which can be delivered by airplanes (A-4 Skyhawk or converted F-4 Phantom II), or ballistic missiles (Lance, Jericho or Jericho II missiles). The Jericho II is reported to have a range between 1,500 and 4,000 km, meaning that it can target sites as far away as central Russia, Iran and Libya.

It has also been speculated that the Israeli Navy's three Dolphin class submarines may be capable of carrying nuclear-armed specially-modified Popeye Turbo cruise missiles. These missiles are purported to have a 1,500 km range and are supposedly fired out of what are suspected to be unusually-sized additional torpedo tubes that were allegedly installed on the Dolphin submarine and are otherwise larger than what is required to accommodate any currently known western torpedo design in existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

talk comparing melons and peanuts

[Minnesota Libra]

8. Lebanon is harboring Hezballoh within their boundaries. nt

[Totally Committed]

9. And the Palestinians have Hamas, and

N. Ireland has the IRA, and Spain has the ETA, and so on and so on.... It's the way the world is now. It is why DEPLOMACY, not WAR is what's needed. We can't allow factions within countries become violent and agressive simply because we ignore them, we need to negotiate with them and find a way to peace or this is not the last war like this we see.

Because, it's ALWAYS the civilians that are hurt.

TC

[Minnesota Libra]

11. Negotiate with terrorist factions?? The one thing I agree with is.......

....."....this is not the last war like this we see." Anytime the world allow "extremists/terrorists" to exist within any/all countries there will be continued war.

No I do not agree with war, I've lost too many family members because of war. At the same time I don't agree with extremists/terrorists controlling a populace either.

One thing I hope is that Israel takes all precautions it can to avoid civilian casualties.

Hezballoh is really brave too by setting up operations in civilian neighborhoods.

[Totally Committed]

12. What I'm saying is... it's the only way to stop the fighting.

You would rather see these wars -- with civilians dying -- instead? THAT'S the only alternative! Look at the relative peace in N. Ireland once the IRA was brought to the table and dealt with. (No, it's not perfect, but the violence has been greatly reduced, and comes mostly from the Orange side now.)

At some point, we have got to start talking to each other or the wars will never stop. I'm not for allowing terrorists to "control" the populace. I'm for trying to get them to start living within the boundaries of human decency (if at all possible) before blowing entire countries to smithereens.

TC

[Minnesota Libra]

14. I'm trying to be realistic about this and as a human who has.............

.....my good and bad points, I'm not sure I could set across the table from someone/some group/nation and negotiate with anyone who has sworn to bring about my utter destruction regardless of how long it takes them.

The situation between Ireland and England was a tad different. As far as I know England never once swore to completely destroy the Irish people, England wanted to destroy the IRA not the general populace.

Hezballoh/Hamas//PLO/etc on the other hand has indeed sworn to destroy Israel as a nation and as a people regardless of how long it takes them. Israel is still supposed to negotiate with someone/some group like that?? I'm just realistic and fair enough to admit I couldn't do it and I rarely if ever ask anyone else to do anything I can't or don't already do.

on edit: There is one good aspect of negotiating with Hezballoh/Hamas/etc. If peace could be arranged between the Arabs and Israel for any length of time at all, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't be long until Hezballoh,Hamas/PLO/etc were fighting among themselves and the general populace. So yes, turning their attention to fellow Arabs might have its advantages.

[Totally Committed]

20. No... when I referred to the IRA, it was THEY who swore to

wipe out the British in N. Ireland at one time. The Orange were no better, having sworn to wipe out the Catholics, and yet ALL sat down at a table, across from each other (it wasn't easy, and didn't go smoothly) but under the very dedicated and careful diplomacy of the U.S. and George Mitchell, peace was made. My friends there tell me there are some days better than others, and there is still the rare violence, but it is just that now -- rare.

This only happened when both sides decided they wanted peace more than they wanted war. Maybe the ME hasn't gotten to that point yet, I don't know. I only know I wish it would happen soon. It will take a certain courage and selflessness on both sides to sit and negotiate, but we should be supporting them diplomatically instead of arming them to the teeth.

There is one good aspect of negotiating with Hezballoh/Hamas/etc. If peace could be arranged between the Arabs and Israel for any length of time at all, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't be long until Hezballoh,Hamas/PLO/etc were fighting among themselves and the general populace. So yes, turning their attention to fellow Arabs might have its advantages.

Absolutely... blessed are the peace makers!

TC

[alvarezadams]

29. Guess what?

"I'm not sure I could set across the table from someone/some group/nation and negotiate with anyone who has sworn to bring about my utter destruction regardless of how long it takes them."

Did you know that there's a recent precedent to the current situation? In 2000 Hezbollah kidnapped THREE Israeli soldiers.

Israel negotiated through Germany and a prisoner exchange took place. No bombs, no dead.

Kinda puts things into perspective, eh?

[MADem]

33. NO DEAD???????? Bullshit.

Your Hizb'Allah heroes returned THE BODIES. They killed them, and kept the bodies, and played on Jewish tradition with regard to burying the dead. They returned DEAD BODIES, which were traded for over four hundred prisoners.

Kinda puts things in PERSPECTIVE, doesn't it?

[alvarezadams]

34. Actually we're both wrong

"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms, and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners with Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

[MADem]

38. No, I'm not wrong. They killed them and took the bodies

They KEPT the bodies for years. That incident took place in 00, the bodies were not given back until 04 with the 'businessman' (who was NOT taken at the same time, they got him in Europe, I think...some think he was a drug dealer). The accident investigation showed tremendous loss of blood at the site, the educated opinion is that they KILLED THEM, and TOOK the bodies.

I underestimated the total they got in return, sure.

Another cross border raid by those charming militianuts.

[alvarezadams]

16. Careful what you wish for

"Anytime the world allow "extremists/terrorists" to exist within any/all countries there will be continued war. "

Remember the School of the Americas? Remember the Contras?

"At the same time I don't agree with extremists/terrorists controlling a populace either."

Don't forget the concept of state terrorism.

[Minnesota Libra]

17. Oh yes I remember School of the Americas and the Contras.........

.....and I realize we are just as guilty as any other country. Unfortunately this country is and will continue to pay and pay dearly for all that too.

[MADem]

24. Actually, the government is too weak to toss them out

And they NEED their charitable wing for social services, and the political wing has dug in and has a good many seats in the legislature. So, even if the militia gets crushed, those two sections of the outfit, which operate INDEPENDENTLY, will likely stay on.

But if the thinking part of the government could do it, they'd chase the frigging militia all the way back to their Ayatullah masters in Iran and tell them never to return.

[MADem]

21. Iran is equipping Hizb'Allah, and they are the ones causing trouble

from inside Lebanon, without the full consent of the ENTIRE Lebanese population--they don't represent the sunnis, maronites, and druzes. Israel is not fighting Lebanon, they are fighting these militianuts, who are being supplied by Iran.

As for your point about Israel's weapons, you're right. We'd be shitty allies if we abandoned those with whom we have had historical and long term alliances.