OMG, read Mark Shields great reply on Support the Troops!

[MissWaverly]

JIM LEHRER: Speaking of symbols, the desecration of the flag amendment, the burning of the flag amendment did not get its one vote it needed, the 67th vote it needed to become a constitutional amendment, as far as the Senate is concerned. How do you read that?

MARK SHIELDS: This one really made me angry.

JIM LEHRER: Made you angry?

MARK SHIELDS: It made me angry, because I listened to those speeches. I listened to the people advocating it, and they talked about our fighting men and women.
If they really were remotely authentic or sincere about our fighting men and women and honoring them, how about body armor? How about armoring Humvees? How about not cutting veterans' benefits? How about not putting our troops in a position where they're ordered to perform torturous acts? How about sending enough troops into battle? I mean, I just -- I mean, this was hypocrisy at its worst.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june06/sb_06-30.html

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Mark is on the mark, he isn't trying to shield anyone from the

blatant truth.... bully for him for telling it EXACTLY like it is.

[MissWaverly]

2. yes, support the troops by intelligent leadership

and not yellow magnets on cars! I told my sister than when the insurgents made a peace offer,
Bush showed have bowed towards Mecca 5 times instead of pissing on their offer, it's not him
that's jogging on two metal legs. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, that's been proven 50 times, why do we always go back to that spin.

[itzamirakul]

3. Mark Shields's comment was great but what was Lehrer's

response?

[MissWaverly]

5. Jim Lehrer did not respond, David Brooks reply

DAVID BROOKS: Mark and I burn each other's columns. We find that emotionally satisfying. I recommend that to everybody.

No, I think it's a stupid idea. I sort of respect the immense popular support it has, and I somehow think people must associate it with something real. Personally, I think you should be allowed to burn the flag. I think that's in the Constitution, so I think the mucking of the Constitution with this amendment trivializes it to me.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june06/sb_06-30.html

[Avalux]

4. How about not starting a war of aggression -

and using our troops to protect contractors? Yeah, answer that one for me you Bushco supporters. They NEVER should have gone into battle in the first place.

[MissWaverly]

7. Yes, I find this terribly sad

and just dragging it out after the oil monopolies have gobbled the pie,

"altogether, the windfall for oil companies taken from U.S. customers totaled 305 BILLION
over pre-war prices in the first three years since "Mission Accomplished."
Page 102-Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast Dutton Books

[Avalux]

9. My mind does tailspins when I hear justifications,

when I hear about armor and torture and civilians being killed. If our rogue government hadn't been so greedy for oil, for control over the middle east, those things wouldn't be an issue. Has anyone read the Constitution? Do they know how our military is supposed to be used? I guess not. And now, they still forget.

[MissWaverly]

10. this should go to the UN

All US contracts should be turned over to Iraqis now. We should agree on a timetable to
withdraw now. It's what the American people want, the Iraqis want, the world community
and everybody else who is not a neocon wants.

[Avalux]

11. Here's my hope -

after hearing the SC's ruling yesterday, and their inclusion of the Geneva Conventions, a foreign government will bring war crime charges against Bushco. Is it possible? I'm not well-versed in such things, but I hope so. :thumbsup:

[MissWaverly]

13. 2 things that could help

1) I think that Castro should ask the US to leave CUBA, it is his country, he should have
a say on what goes on there, I think that it is beyond hubris to have GITMO there.

2) I think that all countries holding our prisoners should file a grievance with the UN
and release their names to Amnesty International and the International Red Cross along with
the name of their native countries. I think a diplomatic effort should be made to return them to their native countries. After they return home, let their cases be reviewed by local authorities who can determine if holding them has merit.

[Avalux]

14. Good points.

I don't know the specifics of the US owning Guantanamo, but may have to check that out. And the other - what have those countries been promised? Will they file grievances? Those questions need to be explored, and yes, it would be a start in the right direction. The rest of the world saying NO.

[MissWaverly]

16. this should be in every paper across the world

after all the fuss that the Bush administration has made over the NY Times article, do you
realize that they read it and had a chance to edit it before it was printed, what spin is this?
The same last week after a bitter House name-calling fest, we find that General Casey had a draw
down plan which the Bush cabinet knew about before Cheney blasted the dems for suggesting
a timetable. 24 hour spin all the time.

The only way to shut these prisons down and stop the torture is to let the people know what
is going on.

[MissWaverly]

18. I believe that we have a 99 year lease

but he could say that the US has held and tortured internationals on his island in violation
of treaties that the US has signed against torture which makes the lease void, that the lease
was signed on a condition of respect and mutual trust that has not been kept or something like
that, I am sure that the world would agree.

[struggle4progress]

33. GTMO is governed by the 1903 and 1934 agreements: the 1934 ..

.. agreement didn't much alter those of 1903 -- which included extradition and clarified that the lease was "for use as coaling or naval stations only, and for no other purpose."

I don't know whether Cuban law contemplates violation of the Geneva convention, which might be the basis of Cuba requesting the US hand over war criminals from Guantanamo -- but it seems clear (insofar as Afghanistan has no seaports) that detainees from the Afghan war cannot be considered natural deposits at a "coaling or naval station," so that Cuba would seem in a good position to argue that the US has broken the treaty, a position the Cubans do not want to take because they consider the treaty null, as obtained by threat.

TREATY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND CUBA
Signed at Washington, May 29, 1934 ...

Article III
Until the two contracting parties agree to the modifications or abrogation of the stipulations of the agreement in regard to the lease to the United States of America of lands in Cuba for coaling and naval stations signed by the President of the Republic of Cuba on February 16, 1903, and by the President of the United States of America on the 23rd day of the same month and year, the stipulations of that agreement with regard to the naval stations of Guantanamo shall continue in effect. The supplementary agreement in regard to naval or coaling stations signed between the two Governments on July 2, 1903, also shall continue in effect in the same form and on the same conditions with respect to the naval station at Guantanamo. So long as the United States of America shall not abandon the said naval station of Guantanamo or the two Governments shall not agree to a modification of its present limits, the station shall continue to have territorial area that it now has, with the limits that it has on the date of the signature of the preset Treaty ...

LEASE OF COALING OR NAVAL STATIONS
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND CUBA
Signed at Habana, July 2, 1903 ...

Article IV
Fugitives from justice charged with crimes or misdemeanors amenable to Cuban law, taking refuge within said areas, shall be delivered up by the United States authorities on demand by duly authorized Cuban authorities.

On the other hand, the Republic of Cuba agrees that fugitives from justice charged with crimes or misdemeanors amenable to United States law, committed with said areas, taking refuge in Cuban territory shall on demand, be delivered up to duly authorized United States authorities ...

LEASE OF COALING OR NAVAL STATIONS
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CUBA
Signed by the President of Cuba, February 16, 1903 ...

ARTICLE II
The grant of the foregoing Article shall include the right to use and occupy the waters adjacent to said areas of land and water, and to improve and deepen the entrances thereto and the anchorages therein, and generally to do any and all things necessary to fit the premises for use as coaling or naval stations only, and for no other purpose ...

<edit:> http://www.blythe.org/users/rrichard/United_States_-_Cuban_Agreements_and_Treaty_of_1934.html

[MissWaverly]

34. thanks for your intelligent post and research on this

I don't see any proviso there to establish GITMO!

[NI4NI]

17. "rogue government"

you hit the nail on the head! Every Dem should resonate your words!

[Bushknew]

6. Home run K&R

[MissWaverly]

8. thanks

yes, Bush knew, he knew all along; sad but true.

[HawkerHurricane]

12. What bull.

The troops did not swear that they would defend the flag... they(we) swore that we would defend The Constitution...

"I, (state your name), Do solomnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foriegn and domestic; that I will bear true faith and alliegance to the same, that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and those officers he appoints above me, in accordance with (branch) regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (So Help Me God)."

Hmmm.... I don't see any mention of a flag in there... anyone?

[MissWaverly]

15. totally agree

Bush should worry more about the troops and less about campaigns and rhetoric and talking
points

[MissWaverly]

19. see this post by CAL04

Pres. of Belgian Senate: 'Real cases' rare in Guantanamo

"The number of those, when you discuss it with the people in this jail, could move from 70 to a little more than 100 but not more. And in some cases, people say we could have only 30 to 40 real valuable cases," she said. Her report says Guantanamo now has some 460 detainees.

I am no math whiz but if 100 of 460 should be detained, that is only 22% of the total
being held and tortured that should be held. Of these "100" what are the charges, if they
get credit for time served; how many of these individuals would also walk out the door.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1544115

[HardWorkingDem]

20. Does everyone know Shields is a Marine?

I love this guy and always have. He's also a Marine (See, you don't want to piss Marine's off by calling them "ex-Marines" - to them, they are and always will be a "Marine".)

[NativeTexan]

21. As usual.....Mark knows what is important, and...........

sees the ignorance in Washington!! On this and some of these other stunts the idiots of the Bush Fascist Party and Crime Family in Congress, I believe the Dems should show how much of a waste of time it is by just sitting quietly and waiting for the vote. All sides know where they stand, and the other side just wants to grandstand for that 35% base it has left.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

22. K&R here's a 5th vote!

[autorank]

23. R!!! Excellent Gracias!!! n/t

[AtomicKitten]

24. nail on head -- bravo!!! K&R

[midnight]

25. Thank you Mark Sheilds!!!!

Now Helen doesn't have to stand alone in her assesment of these ass hats in Washington.

[rosesaylavee]

26. Mark should get a commendation or medal

of distinction just for having to **sit across from** Dumb ass Brooks every Friday and listen to his idiotic ramblings. And Jim Lehrer is always the gentlemen - the only indication he thinks its nuts is by the smallest of wry smiles he presents to Brooks when he says another of his inane justifications for the current administration.

[MissWaverly]

27. you are right, I have seen it too

though I think that both he and Mark had steam rising over Brooks remarks on Haditha

Transcript from 6/02/06 NEWSHOUR with Mark Shields and David Brooks
Brooks comment: But when you get guerrilla war, with fast weapons, fast pace of battle, integrated with civilians, then you get these atrocities, and that's true here. It's true in Vietnam, but it's true in Africa.

MARK SHIELDS: You also get a more democratic response when there is resistance to the war.
I could not disagree more strenuously with David. Jim, there is no code, Marine Corps code, American code, international code, that says the murder of civilians -- if we have a nine-year-old child testifying that he saw his grandmother and grandfather killed by Marines in a cold-blooded way, that is -- I can't tell you how devastating that is.

DAVID BROOKS: This could be the most noble war -- I think it started out as a noble war. This could be the most effectively fought war, you could still get incidents like this. And it doesn't necessarily reflect on the other Marines or the cause in general.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june06/sb_06-02.html

[rosesaylavee]

28. Oh, yes, I saw that one.

Brooks is an imbecile apologist for this *resident.

[MissWaverly]

29. I wish that they would have a seaon highlights

For Mark Shields vs David Brooks, political commentary, I would buy it in a heartbeat, I
am thinking of sending for the PBS Frontline documentary on Karl Rove, I saw the one on Cheney and it was excellent, I think you can download it if you have broadband.

[rosesaylavee]

30. Perhaps we need to start a

Mark Shields fan club. :) Mark is not always as angry as I am about the political scene in Washington - but he is a very consistent voice of reason that I think represents the Democrats well overall.

[MissWaverly]

31. he has facts and is not afraid to use them

MARK SHIELDS: I think we're just caught in incredible contradictions here. I mean, take China and take Cuba, all right? There is essentially three communist countries left on the face of the Earth, right? We've got China, Cuba and North Korea. North Korea is sui generis, OK? Cuba, which has a gross national product somewhat about the size of Kankakee, Illinois, we have to keep our...

JIM LEHRER: That's going to draw some mail, but go right ahead.

MARK SHIELDS: We have to keep our guard up 24 hours a day, seven days a week, because, my god, almighty, we don't know what they could be up to. I look at the United States' own State Department human rights report. Cuba is not Iowa -- don't get me wrong -- but it's not to be confused with China, where torture is regularly employed; 10,000 prisoners killed last year; organ transplants for sale around the word. I mean, it's really -- it's a repressive place.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/jan-june06/sl_4-21.html

[MissWaverly]

32. there is truth in what you say

But, 1 thing that I have found to be true about many is not true with Mark Shields, I never hear him mouth talking points, he prepares his points, which you can tell he has researched to back up his opinions, and he tries to balance his remarks, McCain, and the GOP are not always the villains. David Brooks on the other hand is all shiny talking points, and blah, blah, blah, he never backs up his statements with factual references that I have heard.

[rosesaylavee]

35. Yes. Mark Shields is a thinking individual and has a brain

just like journalists used to be. He is the last of them unless thinking on their own becomes popular again in the MSM.