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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:50 PM
Original message
Anyone seen this annoying RW forwarded email yet?
I am the email supervisor/administrator in my office. The RW sends out ALL the spam, there is no left wing or liberal spam! As usual, it gets forwarded to some Rethug in my office who in turn forwards it out to his Rethug friends, and Voila! more misinformation! Someone please take this apart for me!

Thanks!


"Subject: An Important History Lesson

Why we are in IRAQ.


Here is a post from Raymond S. Kraft, a California lawyer, that sheds light on the Big Picture!

Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials.

The US was in an isolationist, pacifist, mood, and most Americans and Congress wanted nothing to do with the European war, or the Asian war.

Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which had not attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had few allies.

France was not an ally, the Vichy government of France aligned with its German occupiers. Germany was not an ally, it was an enemy, and Hitler intended to set up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, it was intent on owning and controlling all of Asia. Japan and Germany had long-term ideas of invading Canada and Mexico,and then the United States over the north and south borders, after they had settled control of Asia and Europe.

America's allies then were England, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and Russia, and that was about it.

All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was all ready under the Nazi heel.

America was not prepared for war. America had stood down most of it's military after WWI and throughout the depression, at the outbreak of WWII, there were army units training with broomsticks over their shoulders because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have tanks. And a big chunk of our Navy had just been sunk and damaged at Pearl Harbor.

Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England that was the property of Belgium and was given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler. Actually, Belgium surrendered in one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day anyway just to prove they could. Britain has been holding out for two years already in the face of staggering shipping losses and the near decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later and turning his attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse in the late summer of 1940.

Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany. Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow, 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but more than a million soldiers. More than a million. Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis would have won the war.

I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And we are at another one.

There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing so.

The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs. They believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely not liberal!) form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world, and that all who do not bow to Allah should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, -destroy Israel, -purge the world of Jews. That is what they say.

There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East, for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation today, but it is not yet known which will win - the Inquisition or the Reformation.

If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihads, will control the Middle East, and the OPEC oil, and then the US, European, and Asian economies, the techno industrial economies, will be at the mercy of OPEC, not an OPEC dominated by the well educated and rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.

You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want jobs? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins. If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century and into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, ie., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda, the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We cannot do it nowhere. And we cannot do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle now at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq.

Not in New York, not in London, or Paris, or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we did and are doing two very important things.

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad guys there and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or anywhere else. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 - a 17 year war - and was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again ... a
27 year war.

World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP - adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars, WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly
100,000 still missing in action.

The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly 1/2 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed out on
9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater - a world now dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

Americans have a short attention span, now, conditioned I suppose by 60 minute TV shows and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay.

The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be.

The bottom line here is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away on its own. It will not go away if we ignore it.

If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless we prevent them. Or somebody does.

We have four options.

1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.

4. Or we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier then.

Yes, the Jihadis say that they look forward to an Islamic America. If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today. And their grand children would be killed if they refused to denounce their religgion and accept Islam.

We can be defeatist peace activists as anti war types seem to be, and concede, surrender, to the Jihad, or we can do whatever it takes to win this war against them.

The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always, win.

Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti pacifists kill them.

In the 20th century, it was Western democracy vs. communism, and before that Western democracy vs. Nazism, and before that Western democracy vs. German Imperialism. Western democracy won, three times, but it wasn't cheap, fun, nice, easy, or quick. Indeed, the wars against German Imperialism (WWI), Nazi Imperialism (WWII), and communist imperialism (the
40 year Cold War that included the Vietnam Battle, commonly called the Vietnam War, but itself a major battle in a larger war) covered almost the entire century.

The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a few more years, or most of this century. It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance and Jihad, or until Western Civilization gives into the Jihad.

It will take time. It will not go with no hitches. This is not TV.

Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Forty two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.

World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. WWII resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept.

The US has taken a little more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq. The US took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6th, 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In WWII the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week for four years. Most of the individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.

But the stakes are at least as high . . . a world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law).

I do not understand why the American Left does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis. In America, absolutely, but nowhere else.

300,000 Iraqi bodies in mass graves in Iraq are not our problem? The US population is about twelve times that of Iraq, so let's multiply 300,000 by twelve. What would you think if there were 3,600,000 American bodies in mass graves in America because of George Bush? Would you hope for another country to help liberate America?

"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate where it's safe, in America.

Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places in the world that really need peace activism the most?

The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.

If the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. Everywhere the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. And American Liberals just don't get it.

Raymond S. Kraft is a writer and lawyer living in Northern California. Please consider passing along copies of this to students in high school, college and university as it contains information about the American past that is very meaningful TODAY - - history about America that very likely is completely unknown by them (and their instructors, too). By being denied the facts and truth of our history, they are at a decided disadvantage when it comes to reasoning and thinking through the issues of today. They are prime targets for misinformation campaigns beamed at enlisting them in causes and beliefs that are special interest agenda driven.


Don + Nancy Frederick"

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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:55 PM
Original message
Fallacious because "Jihad" is not an organized power.
Fighting some people somewhere won't interfere with various groups plans to get nukes; only interfering with those plans will interfere with those plans.

If by Jihad they mean the entire Muslim world, then we should stand down and let China do the fighting, since they could possibly win and we are bound to lose that fight. If that happens be prepared to live at least a mile below the surface for the next ten generations. Your grandkids will probably be translucent.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dupe
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 05:56 PM by Jed Dilligan
delete
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ask him to prove the following
There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing so.

What's his evidence for this? Who is he talking about? Remember, it's up to him to prove his assertions, not to you to disprove them.

I believe Germany declared war on us, not the other way around.

When Saddam did act like Hitler in invading an enemy, we did go in and kick him out. At the time Bush I felt strongly it would be a mistake to go on to Baghdad. He was right.

How old is this thing? There are over 2,500 American soldiers dead now, and the cost of the war is up to 500 billion. There's no end in sight.

Actually, if you're an e-mail supervisor, you might suggest to him that company resources shouldn't be used to broadcast such long messages if they're not work-related.

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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Yes, I have already scolded the employee.
It's just SO frustrating to continue running into the same old "liberals don't get it" emails, I just wish I could do something else to teach these guys a lesson.

Thank you and everyone else too for your input.
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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. you are right
Germany declared war on the US. These wingnuts can't even get their factoids right.
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tfj2 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. ww2
most americans don't know enough to dispute that (long) bullshit, scarey!! it's how we got into iraq, inexcusable ignorance, but an uneducated public is easier to fuck over and over and over...
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. My favorite part of revisionist history
"Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti pacifists kill them."

Oh really, we should ask Mahatma Ghandi about that:

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always."

Do the Pacifists always lose, or does it just take them longer to finally win? Methinks Ghandi would know more about this than Don and Nancy Frederick. Just a hunch...
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Well said n/t
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Wasn't Gandhi shot dead?


I'm not saying your point isn't valid, but I'd think about using a different pacifist to illustrate it.


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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. There is so much wrong with that it would take a weak to
Answer it all.
But that is how propaganda works they through a bunch of shit at you and know it can't be answered in so few words as to be effective.
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Master Mahon Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is a piece of garbage at so many levels.
Issues in this rant can be addressed ad nauseum.
But the basic point of this email is to attempt to blame the liberals for Bush's mistakes. When we are finally forced to leave Iraq, due to the GOP stupidity and callous disregard for life, they want a scape goat.
This same Bull was used endlessly during the Vietnam war. The world would come to an end, dominoes would fall, communism will turn us all into aliens, bla, bla, bla. Well NONE of that happened, Vietnam is better off now then they were when we were there, AND of course Communism is our 'friend' today, or we are at least sending them all our jobs.

So I say it's more likely 'Al Queda' will be cutting our lawns and working in restaurants 5 years after we leave Iraq, then Islamic Extremism will be ruling the world.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. Christ, what a load of SHIT
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 06:23 PM by hatrack
1. Germany declared war on us, not the other way around.
2. Belgium didn't surrender in one day, they lasted about three weeks, which isn't too bad, considering the mismatch of forces.
3. The Germans did not bomb Brussels into rubble in one day - perhaps the "author" is thinking of Rotterdam - different country.
4. American soldiers did not drill with "broomsticks over their shoulders" - America's armed forces were small and ill-prepared
for the war that came, but though gearing up took, time, we got the job done.
5. Ever hear of the Shia sect of Islam? This guy obviously hasn't.
6. We're already at the mercy of OPEC - geology allows no other options, at least as the world's economy is now constituted.
7. Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons (so do Israel, France, Russia, Britain, and China) - have we surrendered to them? I
didn't think so . . .
8. And the radical Islamic mullahs are going to dictate that all Americans convert or die . . . how?
9. "Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win." Yes, just ask the Khmer Rouge, the Soviets, the Nazis, Mussolini's
Fascists, the Argentine generals, Idi Amin and the Emperor Bokassa, right? Right?
10. "World War II began in 1928"? What the FUCK?
11. "Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany." At the risk of
repeating myself, what the FUCK?
12. "We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons" - Excuse me, but we'll defeat them how? And how
would "defeating" them rob them of the ability to enrich uranium, program machine tools or fabricate nuclear components?

And this assclown says he's a teacher?


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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I love you.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Ah, but I'm already married - alas!
:toast:
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Me too
But I love it when people agree with me!
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. In other words...
... we're in Iraq because neocons are stupid. Big surprise.

"We have created a focal point for the battle now at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq."

Well, gee, if we wanted to create a "focal point for the battle" with Islamic extremism, why the hell did we pick a country that was already fighting Islamic extremism, then do such a botched-up job of it that we created thousands of new Islamic extremists and a situation where Islamic extremism could take over that country?

But really, it's a total waste of time debating idiots like this guy.
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tfj2 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. neo morons no surprise...those they fool....priceless and frightening!!
now i believe armageddon is near...but predict we will go in opposite directions...what a bigger surprise they have coming!!
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WHEN CRABS ROAR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. I AM A PEACE ACTIVIST
AND IN MY FOURTY + YEARS OF DEMONSTATING, I HAVE NOT BEEN SAFE, BEING BEAT ON BY POLICE, SPIED ON BY THE F B I AND SPIT ON BY UPTIGHT RIGHT WINGERS. WE NEED TO DESTROY ALL NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND STOP SPREADING FEAR AND WAR AROUND THE WORLD! ALL WARS ARE NOT ABOUT IDEAS, THEY ARE ABOUT MAKING MONEY. NO MORE ENDLESS WAR FOR ENDLESS PROFIT!
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. Welcome to DU!
:hi:

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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Do what I did,
Gather your facts with and present a well researched rebuttal, then hit 'forward all'. Do it each time they send you crap. You'll either succeed in educating them, or they'll stop sending you their b.s. So it's a win-win situation.

P.S. come up with a nifty sig line to use too. Something like, "Bush is trying to steal your social security again! The rubber-stamping Republicans are waiting for their chance to help him. Vote Republican only if you want to lose your pension."

Or write whatever election thing you want.

Just a suggestion...
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I will!
Posting this today was my first step to put together some cohesive (and quick) statement for all and I totally appreciate all your suggestions.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. The part about forwarding to all is good
Cause then he will be embarrassed in front of all of them.

And you can also add something about using company property for personal use especially political.
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tfj2 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. lmaf and off and offffffffff spam instead of delete works too...
that's how i got rid of my sister in law's stupid forwarding bullshit!!! a librarian suggested it!!!
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's partially right
George Bush (today's Hitler) is occupying Iraq, with an eye toward the entire middle east, and KKKarl Rove wants a decades-long rule of his 4th Reich. Soon the world will take up arms against Smirk just as they did against Hitler, uless we can stop him first.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. OCD --- WHY do you put up with e-mails like that in the workplace???
If you are the e-mail administrator, WHY are you allowing this idiot to send out that crap?

If one single person sent out a political e-mail where I work --- regardless of which side of the isle the e-mail was related to, they would be suspended IMMEDIATELY if not terminated.

You are the supervisor/adminstrator, right? Then start SUPERVISING!!!! :mad:

You're encouraging the activity by not enforcing it!
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It's a constant battle...
I appreciate what you are saying. but without giving too much away about where I work, the GOPers outnumber the Dems by about 2/3 and I have to tread carefully. As you know, some things are SO obviously wrong: sexist/racist jokes, naughty pictures, gossiping with their pal at the bank, those are easy to enforce and everyone agrees even if they are guilty. These RW things come in as if they are a research report, or editorial piece and suddenly you realize you're "reviewing" this CRAP and more often than not it is to or from an employee who brings in a lot of $$$ to the bottom line. Then the office politics starts because of the other politics and oh what a tangled web we weave... I have to "escalate" it to the proper person who then can slap the appropriate hand. I'm sure that "proper person" weighs out whether it's worth it to the bottom line to scold or not.

I have tried to deal with this myself, without escalation and I gotta tell ya: Those Republican bastards are evil and they must be stopped, AT EVERY LEVEL.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. You must not work for the city, state, or feds....
..because if you did, that employee would likely be suspended the first time - and fired if they did it a second time.

Sounds like a very laid-back "anything goes" workplace...

Allowing messages that contain religious statements, any reference to politics, or (of course) inappropriate jokes.. are strictly off-limits in government offices.

I'm sure employees at NewsMax or the likes are encouraged to send out that crap.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. I have to agree with larisa.
You have to take a stand. Be fair about it, and say NO politics, neither left nor right. It doesn't belong in the workplace! I understand it's tough to put your foot down, it is for me too, but, do what you have to do.
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tfj2 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. live in a red-christian state by chance????????????
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tfj2 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. only policy that works....and a great equalizer...
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. My response...
...feel free to borrow, if it's helpful.


>>>>>>>>>

Thanks for forwarding this article. It’s really something. It takes and uses a lot of historic fact and fiction to build a case for fighting in Iraq. I disagree with that…if you assume that everything in the article is true (and I don’t) …then my one question would be, “Why not do this in Afghanistan??? That’s where Osama was. Afghanistan. But much of the article is not true. I’d also like to recommend a book, “The Fourth Power,” by former Senator Gary Hart, who predicted a 9/11 style attack before Bush became President, and was basically ignored by the Bush Administration. Senator Hart describes what the real ‘war on terrorism’ is, and how America needs to use all four of our strengths/power (economic, political, military and moral, as defined in our Constitution) to win this war.

Because I’ve made a commitment to always respond to the Bush Administration’s spin, I had to re-organize this article in a way that responds to anyone who would believe it. Feel free to share it with anyone you are not embarrassed to share it with. 

TRUISMS (I agree with most of this):
• I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And we are at another one.
• There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing so.
• They believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely not liberal!) form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world, and that all who do not bow to Allah should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, -destroy Israel, -purge the world of Jews. This is what they say.
• There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East, for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation today, but it is not yet known which will win - the Inquisition or the Reformation.
• Americans have a short attention span, now, conditioned I suppose by 60 minute TV shows and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay.
• The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be.
• The bottom line here is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away on its own. It will not go away if we ignore it.
• The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a few more years, or most of this century. It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance and Jihad, or until Western Civilization gives into the Jihad.
• It will take time. It will not go with no hitches. This is not TV.
• Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.
• But the stakes are at least as high . . . a world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms. or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law).


REPUBLICAN TALKING POINTS (Much taken from ‘The Project for a New American Century, or PNAC):
Why we are in IRAQ. We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda, the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We cannot do it nowhere. And we cannot do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle now at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq.
Not in New York, not in London, or Paris, or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we did and are doing two very important things.
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.
Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.
(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad guys there and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or anywhere else. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.
If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless we prevent them. Or somebody does.
We have four options.
1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).
3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.
4. Or we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe.


FEAR MONGERING ( Bush and Rove’s tactic to keep us on their side):
• Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis would have won the war.
• The US, European, and Asian economies, the techno industrial economies, will be at the mercy of OPEC, not an OPEC dominated by the well educated and rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.
• You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want jobs? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.
• The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Or we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier then. Yes, the Jihadis say that they look forward to an Islamic America. If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.
•
300,000 Iraqi bodies in mass graves in Iraq are not our problem? The US population is about twelve times that of Iraq, so let's multiply 300,000 by twelve. What would you think if there were 3,600,000 American bodies in mass graves in America because of George Bush? Would you hope for another country to help liberate America?

Just plain crap:
• The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs.

• We are killing bad guys there and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or anywhere else.
• The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion (U.S. GDP in 2006 = 13.04 trillion dollars, which means that the IRAQ war has cost the U.S. approximately 12.5% of a full years GDP), which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly 2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater - a world now dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

• Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti pacifists kill them.

• We can be defeatist peace activists as anti war types seem to be, and concede, surrender, to the Jihad, or we can do whatever it takes to win this war against them.

• I do not understand why the American Left does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis. In America, absolutely, but nowhere else.

• The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.

• If the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. Everywhere the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. And American Liberals just don't get it.

• "Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate where it's safe, in America. Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places in the world that really need peace activism the most?
.



:patriot:
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. Excellent point. Also, if you need help with responding to these
DU people are always willing to help you build a great response just like YvonneCA did.

In fact, the first time I got these forwards in 04, a friend actually wrote the rebuttal (I was new!) and hit the forward all from his email address because I was worried about offending them even though they had offended me by sending me that crap! But now, I'm too ticked off at people who believe 1/2 of this b.s. that I respond.

Though a few didn't get the hint and when they crossed the line, I gave in to the temptation and said, "I do not believe in this hate (anti-immigration) stuff you've forwarded me. I am part of the religious-left and I don't believe that if Jesus were here today that he would agree with that either. Who would Jesus hate? What would Jesus do? Not this!"


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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Responding can be a little...
...tricky, because some times these come from people who are close. I believe good, caring...but gullible...people were used BADLY in 2004 by Bush and Rove. THAT is what makes me angry...not the mislead people who forward this stuff. Remember when some of us here were hit with the reality of the 2004 election...and couldn't understand how other people didn't see what we saw? A few here said, "When they start to wake up, we need to remember how that felt...and how hard it was to accept." Well, they're starting to see it now. We have to be patient and TEACH. Last time, I just let it go, thinking 'No one really thinks that, do they? People are smarter than that, aren't they?' I didn't realize the impact of Fox News or know what was happening in the churches. That is the difference for me this time...as opposed to last time. Be patient and TEACH. :patriot:
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. That was VERY helpful!
Thank you so much! You guys are all keeping me sane.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. Can he be a lawyer if his license is inactive since 1999?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
32. A correction to just one of the lies....
The Republic of Ireland remained neutral throughout WWII. Which was good for the Allies. Due to the state of the Irish military, the country would have been overrun in no time at all, leaving England truly surrounded.

German airmen who landed in the Republic were interned until the end of the war; Allied crews were repatriated. Dublin sent fire engines North after Belfast was bombed.

There are rumors that Churchill offered to return Northern Ireland if England could take over Irish ports. But De Valera did not trust him--with good reason. Churchill had played a part in the negotiations that led to Partition. And his father coined the phrase "Ulster will fight & Ulster will be Right! (Was the syphilis already affecting his mind?)




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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
35. I don't recall FDR cutting taxes for the wealthy during wartime
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
37. In addition to hatrack's post-
Congress rightly took the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor as a dec of war and delcared war on them the next day. Germany and Japan were alllies (of sorts, anyway even if it would have been temporary). As a result, Germany declared war on the US, and we responded in kind.

http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/germwar.shtml


France was most certainly an ally. That country had been at "war" with Germany for many years by the time 1941 rolled around, and its government had been infiltrated with Nazi symps. Many of whom we helped evade capture/punishment after WWII because the CIA "needed" the Nazis to help fight Communism. :eyes: For example, the Butcher of Lyon-

"It has recently emerged that the Americans shielded Barbie at the end of the war in return for information about the Soviets. He was able to flee to South America with temporary travel documents provided by the CIA."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2100776,00.html

Furthermore, France had lost almost an entire generation of young men fighting in WWI, due in part to our refusal to enter that war until *its*, ahem, last throes. Nevertheless, the people of France had what was probably the best and most organized Resistance in Europe and were instrumental in aiding Allied soldiers throughout the war, at great personal sacrifice. While I am not diminishing what my grandparents' generation endured during the war stateside, rationing and the like in no way compares to the fear that the knock on the door means the Nazis have discovered your underground activities and are here to take you to the camps. More anti-France propaganda, merely for them being correct about the Iraq invasion. :eyes:

China was also an ally during the War, something most right wingers also want to forget for some reason. Indeed, without the bodies that the (esp) Russians and Chinese were able to throw at Hitler on the eastern front, there mught have been a far less pleasant end to the War.


Beyond that, tell him that when republicans can get their *facts* straight about recent historical events, then you might be willing to at least listen to their *opinions* about current events. Until such time, tell him to go read a few history books.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. Edit it with corrections, or maybe edit it in a way to make him
appear to be an idiot, pederast, cannibal, dominatrix, or completely insane. Maybe references to flying saucers be a nice touch. Send it to your right wing friends and associates. Tell them even if they have read it before, pass it on. Don't edit it until you are into the meat of the letter.
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. You are brilliant!
That's it! I knew you people would shine the light!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Not brilliant- twisted.
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. That works too!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. It comes natural.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. I strongly agree with this statement:
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 02:32 PM by bvar22
"Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany. Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow, 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but more than a million soldiers. More than a million. Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis would have won the war."

I like to remind ignorant nationalists of this fact everytime they start spouting "The USA saved Europe's butt in WW2".

This is also a very strong argument AGAINST outsourcing all of our Industrial and Manufacturing capabilities.


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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
42. If you're still interested,
I'll work on this.
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I am still interested!
Believe me, I never stop thinking about this....
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. I quit at the phrase 'Japanese Nazis'
:eyes:
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
47. Mr. Kraft...
....besides being woefully uninformed, is a singularly extreme example of victimization of manipulation.

What he proposes is, quite simply, a playground version of reality not worthy of the least consideration.

To whit:

"Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials. "

Very true, but it should be remembered that Nazi Germany was the darling of the American conservatives and especially of American corporate interests. Interests that continued to exist DURING the war, which should shed some light on the characteristics of the American right.

"America was not prepared for war. America had stood down most of it's military after WWI and throughout the depression, at the outbreak of WWII, there were army units training with broomsticks over their shoulders because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have tanks. And a big chunk of our Navy had just been sunk and damaged at Pearl Harbor. "

Non sequitor considering the objective of the post. The dismantling of the US military was more of a conservative issue than a liberal one. It is ironic that the proponders of war NOW, that propounded demilitarization THEN, blame their opponents for their own mistakes.

"I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And we are at another one.

There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing so. "

Whomever wrote this tripe has made a tremendous leap, with nary an introduction and absolutely no conection, in order to justify a POV which can only be described as "non sequitor".

"The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs. They believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely not liberal!) form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world, and that all who do not bow to Allah should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, -destroy Israel, -purge the world of Jews. That is what they say. "

This is a simplistic and disingenuous take on Islamic fundamentalism. It doesn't consider WHY the "militant Muslims" are against us or have the objectives that it supposedly has. Nor does the author consider that "militant Islam" would probably never have existed if it wasn't for Western and American intervention - the concept was FOMENTED by us as a means to counter everything from Communism to liberal democracy... because such concepts were inimical to our COMMERCIAL inerests.

As for the Jews--- it should be noted that historically the Muslims have been FAR more tolerant of judaism than the Xtian West has. Muslim hatred of Israel is not anti-semitism but anti-Zionism - and a good number of Jews themselves are anti-Zionists....

(more later)
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
48. "Raymond Kraft" does not appear in Martindale-Hubble directory
The lawyer directory

Just saying...
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
49. Where did this nut learn math?
The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly 1/2 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed out on


I thought half of 3000 was 1500. Am I wrong?
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