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The South shouldn't base their votes on guns, god, and gays, right, Dean?

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:40 AM
Original message
The South shouldn't base their votes on guns, god, and gays, right, Dean?
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 10:59 AM by wyldwolf
Howard Dean, who recently proclaimed the South shouldn't base their votes on god, guns, and gays, has now turned a 180 and is set to complete his trinity of southern pandering.

With an A+ rating from the Republican dominated NRA and being on record that he is opposed to gay civil union rights on a national level, Dean has taken the remaining issue that he said shouldn't be used as a voting bases in the South: Religion.

Dean, who does not often attend church but is said to be a practicing congregationalist, said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South.

For those who don't know what a congregationalist is, congregationalists consider themselves to be the direct spiritual descendants of the Pilgrims.

So what, you say? Well, congregationalists take pride in the fact that they are not associated with other churches in any type of governing body. In fact, the idea of self-governance is a very big concept for them.

The word "congregationalist" rang a bell with me. Someone I know that works in my company considers himself to be one. I found this out after multiple political discussions with him.

He is a Libertarian, by the way.

So I called him this morning to wish him a merry christmas and ask him about his church. "Is there any official affiliation between congregationalists and the Libertarian party?"

"No, but many Libertarians I know consider themselves congregationalists."

"Why?"

"Self governance..."

He began sounding like Neal Boortz.

"... we consider that very important. The church feels The Mayflower Compact was important to the founding of our church..."

He started on about Church theology. Very evangelical sounding. Fundamentalist.

Is all this a bad thing for Dean? NOT AT ALL - especially if he can be convincing with it. That remains to be seen.

This is politics, after all. GOOD Politics. Dean is obviously very good at his craft. But I don't think many Southern Christians will be convinced.

It may even backfire. Just as the internet has worked for Howard Dean, so it can work against him. People are better informed. And the avalanche of editorials (like this attempt) accusing Dean of pandering will reach the eyes of the south.

And, as it always does, Dean's Libertarian connection does concern me - in his political doctrine and now in his religious affiliation.

Consider this portion from the Boston.com article:

Dean chose Congregationalism -- a denomination, he said, that suits him, because ''there is no centralized -- almost no centralized authority structure -- and I like that.''

Key Libertarian philosophy.

Just like many of his policies.

Dean is sounding more and more like a Libertarian and less and less like a Democrat.

Yeah, I know all about Wesley Clark and republicans and all that.

So address Dean and his Libertarianism.

On a forum where Libertarians have been called "loons" and railed against, is it now OK to walk and talk like Libertarian and a fundamentalist and run as a democrat?

*** edited to remove a portion that claimed Dean is a Libertarian void of proof of his actual affiliation with that party.***

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Dupe
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. hardly a dupe..with this new info
and anyway...the other thread is so fullof Dean supporters testifying that he would never do this that it's cumbersome to load and follow.
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Racenut20 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Unprincipled opportunist comes to mind when I read this.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Perhaps a little context will help
Those words have been taken out of context so often that it's easy to lose sight of the fact that what Dean was saying is that we let repukes divide us by making everything about God, Gays and Guns. He wants to bring to the discussion unifying issues such as education and health care. He never said or implied that he wouldn't talk about God, but I don't expect Dean will be using God, Guns and Gays to divide.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. is there a link to a speech?
if anyone has it I'd like to see it in Dean's own words.
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. How PHONY can you be an not be SEEN to be PHONY. Dean test limits

Dean is really a mind-bending performer. They say "Dean will have
a problem by being to secular," and Dean Says " I can be a holy roller
too, let me show you!"
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. what's the matter? santa claus wasn't good to you this morning?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. cutesy lines instead of reasoned replies? Look at HFishbine's reply #4
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 10:53 AM by wyldwolf
THAT is how to discuss things.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. cutesy lines followed by personal attacks... you make Dean supporters ...
..look bad.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. take it easy on them
they are having a rough time assimilating this latest 'revelation'...
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. gee, truth hurts, doesn't it?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Please, no truth to Dean opponents today. It's Christmas already.
;)
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. since you put it that way, guess I can ignore them, in order to guarantee
that they make it to the new year.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. There's no proof that Dean is a 'Libertarian'.
Just a cobbled-together harangue that infers that, based on a string of lossely-connected and overly-broad (sweeping?) assumptions IMO.. :eyes:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. You're right, so let me rephrase the question...
On a forum where Libertarians have been called "loons" and railed against, is it now OK to walk and talk like a run as a democrat?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. He's not even close to being one:
Go read what Libertarians believe, then come back and tell me he's even remotely 'Libertarian' in his thinking.

http://www.libertarian.org.

:eyes:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. As an innocent bystander I have a feeling this thread may get ugly.....
Entertaining though.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. I'll get the coconut shrimp :)
:hi: Bill
Yeah this does look ugly. I may disagree with Dean on a good deal but I dont feel he is a libertarian.
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
9. Dean Religion Goverment
I doubt that Dean will ever become confused about the separation of church and state. Bush gets lots of votes by bringing up religion. If I thought he believed or understood what he says, I would be even more concerned about this man in the Whitehouse. I would not presume to speak about the south, but in Michigan we have always lost tons of votes to the Democrats because of the hot button issues of gun control, abortion and religion. Now the rethugs are trying to make gay rights into a hot button issue. I am sure that Dean gets it. He is saying, sometimes poorly I guess, that you're not going to change many peoples stance on these issues so why not concentrate on real world issues that you can change; like jobs, health care, SS, and other like issues. I do realize that you need to explain your religion to be elected President, but the fact remains, church and state do not mix well, and Dean understands it.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. and that's why in this article he's talking about God instead of healtcare
he must have problems with his 'concentration'.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
12. How many threasds you gonna start on this?
Look! The Dean Meme of the day!

Start Posting!
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floridaguy Donating Member (751 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
16. Northern politicians in the South
As a Southerner who has studied politics in the South my entire life, I can assure that Southern people don't like to be pandered to by know-it-all politicians from the North, and that is exactly how Howard Dean comes off.

Often when people move here from the North they often mangle Southern terminology, trying to fit in, e.g., don't use the term y'all when speaking to an individual, it's our uneducated contraction for you and all, which indicates plural.

Dean's comments about Southerners & the Confederate flag offended every Southerner I know, and being a Florida cracker, I know a few. White businessmen and working people feel it was condescending, and you can only assume how my black friends feel about his favorable reference to the Confederate flag.

If the good doctor thinks he can throw in an Amen or Jesus, and that will somehow endear him in the South, he is sorely mistaken. Perhaps he can stop at a diner and order grits, if he knows what they are.

Wesley Clark is intelligent, humble, and he speaks our language. People in the South like the military and they prefer a humble Southerner over a not-so-humble Northerner, and most Southerners I know aren't as nice about their references to Dean.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. so we can only have Southern Presidents......
from now until the end of time.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. Reagan was a bumbling dolt from California who beat Jimmy Carter,statesman
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 04:55 PM by oasis
and southern gentleman.

Hopefully all presidents will continue to be Americans.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
20. This is what that same web site said about what is a Congreg , , ,
As Congregationalists, we believe that our relationship with God is one that is deeply personal and private. We do not adhere to any creed, and we come from a myriad of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. We are free to pray and commune with God as we each see fit. No one tells us how to pray, or how to worship, however - our belief system is deeply rooted and built upon Biblical tradition and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

end of quote

That isn't Fundamentalism in point of fact it is the opposite of Fundamentalism. Fundamentalists are not free to pray and commune with God as they see fit, the do follow a creed, and they are told how to pray and worship. I know this because I was one when I was in middle school. It would be possible to be a Fundamentalist Congregationalist due to the fact that Congreagationalists don't tell you how to worship but by no means are all or even more than a handful of Congregationalists Fundamentalists.
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'm Southern, but I'm an American first - and America is in big trouble if
we don't get Bush out and Dean in.
Afghanistan is the very best example of what happens to a nation when religion takes charge of government.

Some say - this will never happen in America - it is starting to happen now and the very people that think they want religion to take over government will be the ones hollering the loudest if it ever does - because once religion takes over - it will be any religion - including Muslim - and all the "fun" for women that that entails. - be very careful, my fellow Southerners - you may get what you want and not want what you got!
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ldoolin Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
23. This is silliness
The Congregational Church, which is officially known as the United Church of Christ, is one of the more liberal Protestant denominations around - probably more liberal than the Episcopal Church but not quite as liberal as the Unitarian-Universalists.

Official web site: www.ucc.org

Any attempt to draw some kind of linkage between Congregationalists and Libertarians based on what one Libertarian said, and from there to link Dean with Libertarians is absurd. A majority of Libertarians, in my experience, are atheists. But what else can we expect from the trolls who keep posting their anti-Dean spew on this forum?
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. By the same ignorant logic
As applied by a Clark supporter, I guess Franklin Pierce and Calvin Coolidge would be libertarians since they too were congregationalists.

Merry Christmas.
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ldoolin Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. Jimmy Carter is a Southern Baptist
(sarcasm mode ON)

Oh, no! Using the twisted non-logic of the original poster, doesn't that make Carter a right-wing fundamentalist?

Richard Nixon was a Quaker. Wouldn't that mean that Nixon was an ultraliberal and a pacifist?

Al Sharpton is a Pentecostal minister. Aren't Pentecostals all right-wing Operation Rescue and Promise Keepers types?

Jesse Jackson is a Baptist. Oh, dear! Didn't I hear once that Bob Jones University is Baptist? We must expose this right-wing southern segregationist in our midst!

(sarcasm mode OFF)

Whatever.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. carter left the southern baptists
he had already had differences, but the whole thing about them wanting women to submit to men was what got him to finally leave.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. wolf you have it wrong
Dean is a member of The Holy Church of the Bike Path
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. Dupe - rapidly becoming poop....
If this issue lasts for a few more iterations and baloney threads, it will definitely make it into my "poop" file.

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batman Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. not to mention dean is winning in the southern polls
oh well
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Hence the REAL source of ire from the Dean opponents.
Thank you for reminding us. Gee whiz, it looks like Dean's southern strategy is WORKING after all. Who knew.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Post election headline: "Dean Sweeps the South". And then you wake up.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. do you refute that Dean is outpolling Clark in the South by 3 to 1?
Please say yes....


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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
36. This flame bait is stll being kicked?
:eyes:
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