The fighting over Dean has to stop.

[last1standing]

Yesterday, Howard Dean made a mistake. I wish he hadn't but he did, there's no going back on that. The uproar it's caused, however, has been much greater than the comment or where he said it is worth. We've had at least one long time member banned and several good posters alienated from their own community. How does this help?

Whether you still support Dean as DNC chair or not, he's not leaving. You can threaten to leave the Democratic party but what would that do? In fact, more people - gay and straight - would probably leave the party if he stepped down than will by him staying. Then you're voice is completely lost. Is that better than working for change in an environment that respects and supports gay rights?

I also think it's time for those still screaming for his resignation to remember that he's the first governor to sign civil union legislation. No, it's not equality, but it's the closest thing we have to it right now. Dean has always been a supporter of gay rights, more so than even most other Dems. In fact, the chances of getting another chair as supportive as Dean is very remote.

I support gay marriage, and I support Howard Dean as DNC chair. These positions are not exclusive. But even if you don't support Dean, he offers the best chance we have to take control of one or both houses of congress. Without that what chance do we have to advance gay rights? Will the repubs work toward equality in the workplace? Will repubs stop the fundies from spewing their hate? I doubt it and so should you.

It's time to put this argument behind us and move toward an agenda we should all be able to agree on: Equal rights for every American.

[katinmn]

1. OK, Mom! Just keep your eyes on the road!

:)

[last1standing]

4. Don't make me come back there.

I'll pull this car right over!

:mad:

LOL

[katinmn]

5. :-) Nice post, BTW

[last1standing]

15. Thank you.

Let's just hope it helps. :shrug:

[Pirate Smile]

2. Who got banned?

Geez, I miss everything.

[soleft]

40. Yeah - who?

[msongs]

3. havent seen any fighting here, just a couple of threads....

with some ambivalence over dean's choice to go on some wingnut tv show.

not exactly the end of the world is it?

or as posted earlier, Howard's apology:

I'm sorry, so sorry
That I was such a fool
I didn't know
Love could be so cruel
Oh, oh, oh, oh
Uh-oh
Oh, yes

You tell me mistakes
Are part of being young
But that don't right
The wrong that's been done

[last1standing]

6. I've seen quite a few more than two.

It's been going on since yesterday night. I just think it's time to bring some sanity back to the discussion and point out our options.

[clarknyc]

7. This whole thing is so silly.

Big picture, people.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Human rights are the BIG PICTURE

Dean misstates Democratic platform on gays

Party chairman’s pitch to religious conservatives angers gay advocacy group

Dean told Christian Broadcasting Network News that the 2004 Democratic platform declares "marriage is between a man and a woman" — just one of the points he made in reaching out to religious conservatives who are largely hostile to the party.

But the platform does not define marriage that way, and his remarks prompted the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force to return a $5,000 donation from the Democratic National Committee.

<snip>

Foreman said Dean should be persuading Democrats to fight against ballot initiatives seeking to ban gay marriage but instead has misrepresented the party's "important and affirming plank" several times.

"There has been a disturbing lack of clarity from Governor Dean about where we fit into the party and the country," he said after Dean corrected himself.

Foreman said the $5,000 was for sponsorship of the group's leadership awards dinner in Washington last week and will be missed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12743945/

[last1standing]

12. Yes, human rights are the big picture....

but who do you think is more likely to support them, Dems or repubs? If you continue to rail against Dean for this after he has made a correction and acknowledged his mistake, while also reiterating his support for gay rights, then you begin to work against the cause, not for it.

I'm not asking you, me, or anyone else to go to the back of the bus. I'm asking everyone to consider what the best course of action is and how to achieve what we all want. Equality.

[readmoreoften]

41. Democrats at the national level have never supported gay rights.

The record is so poor, many GLBT people don't have any faith in them and don't even bother to vote.

Homophobia is a bad campaign strategy. I know you think dems who do this are appealing to the middle by distancing themselves from us, but any conservative who REALLY cares about this issue will not vote for a flip-floppy anti-gay-lite candidate. They have a hard core group of bigots to vote for.

All he is doing is alienating the base and taking us for granted.

Democrats have never given us a gain at the national level. Clinton was behind DOMA and don't ask, don't tell. ENDA was squashed.

Here's a newsflash. WE WILL NEVER BE POPULAR. THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT WILL ALWAYS HATE GAYS. At some point the Democratic party needs to stop pandering to them. This idea of "wait 'til we get control and then we'll change everything for you!" attitude is absurd. If we ever got control, most Dems would not pass legislation supporting us because then "we'd need to keep control." The DNC would say, "We need to keep united. We have a fragile coalition keeping us in power. We can't afford to upset that by giving gays rights."

Dean has personally done some okay things for gays. Like civil unions. More reason for him not to pander and flip flop. Actions like these are foolish. I'm sure that NO CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS WERE CONVINCED BY HIS EVASIVE COMMENTS.

I think this attitude is foolish. Instead of apologizing for supporting gays, why not throw some gut wrenching emotionalist stories about murdered gay children or people who lost everything because their partners weren't legally protected. And if you can't reach these people in a "going for the gut" GWB style, if they don't care about dead gay kids, then we'll probably never reach them anyway.

[enough already]

50. Wow, well said

I'm so disillusioned with the party right now. I have no idea what the hell Dean was thinking.

[last1standing]

53. Are you just trying to be offensive today?

I don't appreciate it when someone tells me they "know" what I think. In fact, you're quite wrong about the workings of my mind. I don't support having a party full of repub-lites and I have always pushed strongly for gay rights. I would never suggest or even want to push these issues to the background.

As for you comments on the party itself, there have been plenty of politicians who have let gays down over the years, but Dean isn't one of them. To suggest otherwise is not only wrong it's hurtful to the cause. I guess you know of a party you can join that has a better track record with gay rights. Maybe you know something the rest of us don't about a third party coming up here in 2006 that's going to sweep the vote. I mean you must since you're so willing to bash the Dems for not jumping up right now and forcing through gay marriage. I mean, so what that the majority of the public doesn't support it right now and they would annihilate the Dems at the next election. It's not like the repubs would just overturn the law and force through a constitutional amendment, is it?

It's about time some people grow up and realize that life isn't fair and you can't get everything at once. Yes, this is discrimination and no, I don't support it, but damnit, at least I'm working toward the goal and not just crying because someone said something that hurt my feelings. The only way we're going to get equal rights for everyone is by taking over a party and getting them elected. The Dems are our only option for that.

[IndianaGreen]

8. The problem with the "marriage is between a man and a woman"

On a sci-fi note, the "marriage is between a man and woman" would have prevented Spock from being conceived for his mother was a human female while his father was a Vulcan male. Spock's father Sarek was not a man, for man only applies to the human species, not to Vulcans or Klingons.

On a more serious note, is a form of anti-Semitism to force Jews to abide by Christofascist fundie dogma.

Reconstructionist and Reform rabbis would perform same sex marriage ceremonies were it not for the fundies forcing states to deny marriage licenses on the basis of sexual orientation. Why should we abide by Christofascist rules? The marriage license should be a secular document devoid of religious bigotry and should be issued to any couple wishing to marry. The same fundie arguments against same sex marriage were used by them to support anti-miscegenation laws. None of you (I would hope) would support denying marriage licenses to a white person marrying a person of colour, yet some of you would deny a gay couple a marriage license.

If a church refuses to marry gays, that's their call, but they shouldn't be preventing my rabbi from marrying same sex couples.

[last1standing]

9. I cannot support inter-species (Vulcan/human) marriage.

That's just sick! LOL

Thanks for bringing a little humor into this. I can honestly say I've never thought about the ramifications of Star Trek love. :rofl:

Seriously, though. I agree with you about marriage licenses. Make them completely non religious and let anyone have the ceremony of their choosing. My belief is that within five years of legal gay marriage, most religious organizations will be voluntarily performing services.

[Mr_Spock]

52. :( does this mean my marriage is annulled?

What about my beautiful children - do I have to give them back?

:rofl:

[tishaLA]

11. I haven't called for his resignation, but

I have repeatedly said that he should not misrepresent what appears in the party platform; the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force says it has repeatedly asked him to stop misrepresenting it--and yet he continued to do so on the 700 Club. Nothing in the NGLTF's history makes me doubt that they are accurate when they say, "Disturbingly, this is not the first time he has misrepresented this important and affirming plank, and he has been asked before to correct the record and to cease making these misleading statements."

Even the Human Rights Campaign, an LGBT organization for which I have little respect--after two days' silence--finally made a statement that encapsulates the problem:

“Governor Dean’s comments weren’t a mere slip of the tongue but a glaring reminder of the governor’s lack of leadership on this issue,” said (HRC Executive Director) Solmonese. “As we face a Senate vote in June that threatens to put discrimination in our Constitution, Governor Dean should not only have known better but he should have used the opportunity to speak out about the lack of values involved in the current constitutional debate.”

Solmonese continued, “While Governor Dean’s clarification of the Democratic platform’s inclusive message is a step in the right direction, it’s imperative that the Democratic National Committee and Governor Dean himself continue on that path in a clear and unequivocal way. We join fellow gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender leaders in concern over a troubling series of missteps that fail to convey Governor Dean’s and the DNC’s commitment to equality.”

For the record, I believe reasonable people can disagree about marriage equity (I don't call it "gay marriage" because, in my mind, marriage is marriage) and I believe that the chairman is generally doing a reasonably good job. But this disagreement has not been about whether marriage equity is the best thing, for me. It has been about repeated misrepresentations of what the party says. He may or may not have a different opinion, and that's OK. But saying something utterly false about the Democratic Party platform to fundies not only makes him looks suspicious to the fundies but also to LGBT Democrats and their supporters.

[ruggerson]

13. I've read pretty much every post you've written on this

in the last few days and agree with every word.

I don't mind outreach either, but the misrepresentation bothers me, as no one is going to convince me he doesn't know what that platform says.

[tishaLA]

36. The feeling is mutual

Many of your posts have been so good I wish I had written them myself.

[last1standing]

14. Most of us agree that Dean screwed up.

That's obvious. The point I'm making is that it's time to look at the fact that we're better off with him than without. Dean is our best chance for taking back congress and without that, we can kiss any advancement in equal rights goodbye.

Yes it was a stupid move, but he's not perfect. I can forgive mistakes, but I can't forgive hatred - and hatred is what the repubs are offering us.

[PetraPooh]

19. I don't agree that he made a little screw up;

I think the reason I am torqued by his recent comments is because it makes him a little suck up. I actually am kind of ambiguous about gay marriage, so his support or lack of support for that cause isn't an issue with me. BUT the idea that he would say something like that at a christian rally of sorts. . . . well, that kind of trying to say what the "present" group wants to hear at the expense of the "absent" group. . . .that really bugs me. Seems one (party or person) should find a position and stick to it; not let it waiver and flux depending on whom one is speaking to. Now even if Dean had said he personally felt different than the party on this issue; I could've lived with that. But he didn't; he brought the party in with him on this one. I have lost most of my respect for Dean lately because he isn't concerned about voting fraud and making sure our votes count next time; but this really ends my support of him. If he is too dimwitted to know what he is saying on behalf of the party; then he's no better than the idiot in the whitehouse. Seems stupid, careless leaders are all the rage these days; excuse me if it rubs me the wrong way.

[last1standing]

20. You've misquoted me. I never said it was a little mistake.

In fact I never implied it either. This was a big mistake that has rightly brought down a lot of criticism. But Dean has been a staunch supporter of gay rights and has formulated a winning plan for the 2006 election and to lose him now would be disaster for every American who supports equal rights.

If you haven't heard him talk about the vote count that's your fault not his. And if this ends your support for him that's fine, but if he is forced to resign, there's very little chance the party will recover.

You're choice as to what you do.

[PetraPooh]

23. You didn't read my post.

I said I don't like the two faced-ness of the what he did; if he was a "staunch supporter" before then why would he sell that out for the christian club. Not to mention that just the fact that he was there at all, . . . I find very offensive to our party. As far as the voting issues, there have been a number of du thread regarding his refusal to take it on as an issue (yes, he uses it from time to time as a talking point, but he isn't DOING anything about it nor using DNC resources to do anything about it).

[last1standing]

28. Glad to see you know what I have and haven't done.

I won't deal with someone who twists my words like this. Go find someone else to misrepresent.

[enough already]

51. "Stupid" implies to me that he didn't think about it

I think his comments were calculated, which is very disturbing.

[PetraPooh]

34. But saying something utterly false . . .

But saying something utterly false about the Democratic Party platform to fundies not only makes him looks suspicious to the fundies but also to LGBT Democrats and their supporters.

EXACTLY! Well said, so I thought I would repeat it with you.

[alittlelark]

16. Those that fight over him seem to have a printed agenda

I do not know where they got it from - but the same ????'s come up over and over and over.....




just sayin'....

[ruggerson]

17. We get it from Gay Agenda headquarters

it comes with the toasters

[last1standing]

18. It's just time for it to stop.

We can't move forward if we're fighting like this amongst ourselves. It's either those who want Dean pushed out for this one mistake or it's those who are trying to justify it by saying they don't agree with gay marriage either.

All I can say is if Dean is forced out we will never get rid of these repubs. If that's what these flamewarriors want, they sure know the right way to get it.

[PetraPooh]

21. And we can't move forward if we begin to forgive our own

leader's stupidities. I'm sorry; but he should be held responsible for his mouth; or we are just as bad as the repubs that support babybushie no matter how many mistakes he makes. I think we should be demanding he apologize and do community service at an aids hospice for 100 hours; not demanding obedience from those he has offended with his careless remarks.

[last1standing]

22. Once again you mis-state what I've said.

I never demanded obedience, I posted a thread trying to calm down a volitile situation with some honest facts. Are you going to continue to to twist everything? If so just let me know so I can stop responding.

As for community service, why would you want him to be working in a hospice during an election year? Do you have no grasp of the consequenses of this vote? We need Dean where he is, not doing penance so you can feel like you've gotten revenge.

If this seems harsh, good. I don't like it when people twist my words and meaning.

[PetraPooh]

27. Yes, you demand "fighting. . . has to stop"

Stopping fighting is obedience in my book. And this isn't about you or understanding you its about Dean and whether his recent behaviour should be argued about.

Nonetheless, you say, "....Do you have no grasp of the consequences of this vote? We need Dean where he is . . . ."

I say, if the 2006 OR the 2008 vote depend on Dean, we're screwed. Fortunately I think at least the 2006 election will depend on the people and on local planning, not on Dean, so I still have hope. I think maybe the lack of grasp is in your hands; I sure hope anyway. Dean has been becoming more of a liability every day from what I've seen; not just this, everything. I usually just want to brain him after I see him interviewed. And the really bizarre part, I was one of the first on the Dean bandwagon way back when he first was interviewed on NPR and stayed "with" him right up till he quit. So I don't say any of this lightly.

[RDU Socialist]

24. oh horseshit

if hillary clinton had said the same thing you'd be putting two big pieces of wood together so you could nail her to it.

[Placebo]

25. You are 100% correct.

[last1standing]

26. Do you always make unsubstantiated comments like that?

Please find one post where I've attacked Hillary unfairly. I'd love to see it. I have no problem with her so it might be a bit hard to find, but please try.

If you can't then I suppose I'll just have to believe you merely wanted to flame without fact.

[dorktv]

29. 35% in the polls, signed civil unions bill

Hate what he says but his actions do speak for him.

[madfloridian]

30. Could I make a comment here?

Things really got rough here last night. Some of us come from areas that are very fundamentalist in nature, and we bring different experiences to the forum.

I got really upset over the way the CBN viewers were criticized so horribly. I detest Robertson and all he stands for, but there are so many good people, true Christians who do watch.

My parents did when they were still living, but they saw Robertson for what he is. They kept their TV on religious channels all day. Near the end my mom could not see the Tv but she could hear, and it gave her comfort. Our neighbors watch also, and they are bright common sense people who don't like him either.

To add to that, people were thinking I was judging the gay community since most of our area does not support gay marriage...while most support equal rights in every way. They don't think of it as a "separate but equal" topic which I have seen for the first time here. I never thought of it either that way.

We have a gay daughter, who has been out happily for years now. Our other sons and daughters and my husband and I are accepting and casual.
She is a religious person, just like we are, though she left her church as well over the war.

I guess I just had a hard time seeing why Howard Dean was so bad. He apparently got the platform wrong, but it nearly wiped every other issues from this forum for two days. It is being covered in every news outlet. He is being made to pay dearly, though he was hurt badly during the campaign by phone calls from Bill Clinton saying he could not be president because of the civil unions bill. I guess I kept thinking he can't win for losing.

He will weather it, but to be quite frank the outrage angered many here. I do have an understanding from experience, but I still got angry with the attacks that just kept on. We called our daughter to get the feel if we were being unfeeling...she said he was probably the best bet right now.

Peace.

[last1standing]

32. It's hard not to get angry when two important issues clash.

But I appreciate your words. I know we got into it a bit last night and I hated that. We need Dean right now, but we need equality for everyone forever. If it came down to a choice between the two I would have no hesitation in my choice.

Dean deserved to get kicked around some, but it needs to end now. Let's move forward.

[ruggerson]

33. I can't speak for anyone else

but I think it was the actual phrase "marriage is between a man a woman" which rankled many of us.

There are a lot of fundie buzz phrases that they have used in the last ten or fifteen years to marginalize us and destroy our families and, in some cases, foster violence against us.

"Protecting marriage", "the gay agenda", "special rights", the list goes on and on.

For Howard to go into the sanctuary of the man who said that gays and lesbians were responsible for 9/11, the man who founded the Christian Coalition, the man who has indirectly waged war on every gay person in the country, for Howard to go into this man's "house" and then use anti gay fundie buzz speak to try to cozy up to them was just mind bendingly bizarre to many of us.

Like I said earlier, I understand what he's trying to do, but that was neither the time nor the place to do it.

[inthebrain]

35. THis is the same Howard Dean.....

that said Dems need to "speak planely" about their positions.

Perhaps Dean should take his own advice. I don't care which program he goes on. This "marriage is between a man and a woman" crap should never have crossed his mind.

Then again, like all things, Howard didn't pass "Civil Unions" in Vermont because he had an epiphany. He was pressured to do so by GLBT groups. Like all civil rights legislation that's always the case.

Dean had a great oppotunity on that show to issue a reasoned argument and spoke like a bigot.

[Trajan]

31. There is ONE FIGHT that matters ....

The fight for control of our collective destiny ....

I support Dean and the Democratic Party, even if they occasionally say STOOPID shit ....
..

Chastise him/them/us, then move on to the next task at hand : DEFEATING THE GOP .......

[booley]

37. What's wrong with criticism?

yes Dean did something dumb going on CBN and saying what he did.

And I got mad and disapointed.

Then he admitted he was wrong (about the party platform at any rate)

And I felt a little better.

But Dean needs to stop making these kinds of obviouse mistakes. Many gay people already feel like political ballast, thrown overboard once they are no longer needed. Dean going on CNB and saying what he did only furthered that perception.

There's nothing wrong with criticism if it' s based in reality. And I can support the democratic party and STILL criticise Democrats. I can even Support and criticise the Same Democrat at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive either.

[last1standing]

38. I've criticized him for this too.

And I'm not trying to say he shouldn't be kicked around a bit for it, but it's gotten out of hand here at DU. We've had at least one member banned and a ton of hurt feelings. I don't think anyone wants that. While I think it's also time to move forward regarding Dean's comments, I'm more interested in cooling the tempers at DU.

And, of course, I think all the calls for his resignation are counterproductive six months out from an election we actually have a chance of winning.

[Harper_is_Bush]

39. Anyone who refuses to let it go should be given a time-out...

it's disruptive.

[readmoreoften]

42. Are you calling for people to be banned because of they disagree?

So, when people post against Hillary Clinton, that's okay? Or FOR Gore and Kerry? The Duke rape case and abortion? We can fight all day over all that, but gays who are upset that the chair of the DNC is appearing on anti-gay networks using republican-speak, they need to shut up?

[Harper_is_Bush]

43. Well, I didn't say "banned"

and I didn't bring up sexual orientation.

I find your misrepresentation of me quite disturbing.

[readmoreoften]

44. So what does "should be given a time out" mean?

Not "should take a time out", but "should be given" one. That means forced out of the conversation. There is really no other interpretation of this.

Okay, so you're suggesting that-- not gays, but those who are most upset by Dean's comments excluding gay rights from the Dem platform-- should be "given a time out". Sorry if I misrepresented your words: you want anyone upset about Dean's comments to be slienced, gay or straight.

If you misrepresented yourself through poorly stating your real position, that's fine. But you said what you said, and no one has anything else to go on. I find your comments "quite disturbing."

[Harper_is_Bush]

45. You know, like little kids. Go sit in a certain chair in a certain room

for a little while. Cool off...think about your behavior....get some perspective.

That's a "time out". For adults it would have to be self-imposed, naturally.

[readmoreoften]

46. Then you misrepresented yourself. I haven't misrepresented you.

"Should be given a time out" implies that an authority does the giving. In light of the fact that people have been banned from DU over this topic.

Furthermore, characterizing gay and lesbian people and their supporters as children who need to sit in the corner and "think about their behavior" and "get some perspective" is offensive.

Criticism is going to happen, so long as our Dem leaders keep making stupid mistakes.

[Harper_is_Bush]

47. You continue to misrepresent me.

I was not "characterizing gay and lesbian people and their supporters" as anything.

Interesting how you repeat exactly the same misrepresentation again after having it pointed out to you.
That could be considered willful.

[readmoreoften]

48. Whatever. I'm done with you.

If you won't take responsibility for what you post, you aren't worth talking to.

[Harper_is_Bush]

49. Likewise

I you won't stop lying about what I post you aren't worth talking to.