Why I am asking people to support John Kerry.

[PretzelWarrior]

I believe he truly has the reasoned and moderate approach 80% of Americans are looking for. I believe he passes the "Image" test of being a tested combat veteran, a tested member of the government process, and a man who clearly gets his message out there. You can talk about anti-establishment and I encourage it. We should start the conversation now for what we can do in 2012 when he's served his two terms. But it is something that needs time to develop. For now, let's focus on the man that has been polling very consistently as a guy who can and will beat Bush.

We need those radicals out of office. Dean isn't gonna do it. Clark has too many pieces of baggage that are uncovered. Kerry has been in tough battles politically and had plenty of buckshot in his behind from previous senate fights. He is tested and true.

I urge you people in Michigan and Wisconsin to support John Kerry and get the ground troops fighting for him. I'm just a humble voter in Oregon who has no say in the nomination personally, so I communicate my resolve that we work for Kerry. Let's build a war chest. Let's build a vision he can communicate to the "other" America.

Please contribute what you can. $10. $50. $2000 if you are generous and have the means.

all you have to do is check out his message and donation page at http://www.johnkerry.com

Thanks. May the best man win.

[corporatewhore]

1. Kerry is too Radical

he supports a system of trade that rapes the land sells american jobs to SLAVES robs natives of their land and expoilits people and their society soo much like in bolivia they were driven to overthrow their leader

Published: October 17, 2003 (NY TIMES)

A PAZ, Bolivia, Oct. 15 — The many Indian protesters who choked the streets and highways of this Andean nation again on Thursday may be poor and speak broken or accented Spanish, but they have a powerful message.

It is this: no to the export of gas and other natural resources; no to free trade with the United States; no to globalization in any form other than solidarity among the downtrodden peoples of the developing world

Source: ahref=http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/17/international/americas/17GLOB.html?8...

[lastknowngood]

2. Yea and he has a few negitives to

n/t

[PretzelWarrior]

3. WRONG! more people in China and Mexico are lifted out of

poverty because of free trade than because of any other mechanism. Maybe we should look at the Catholic Church and the repressive foreign policy of the US government putting down socialist uprisings in central and south america for the problems of the native peoples down there. I can guarantee you the "War On Drugs" supported by the Reagan and Bush regimes have done 1000% more damage to the people in those countries than the simply clear economically beneficial free trade agreements.

Think about it: if American workers are losing something in the way of old economy jobs...they are going somewhere. They are helping others attain a living wage in their countries. I bet the vast % of Americans are buying those products at cheaper prices without a question in their heart regarding workers and wages. They just reap the economic benefit.

Maybe you should realize that these changes will happen by degrees and Kerry is the man to work with congress and install department cabinet members who will make a positive difference.

[corporatewhore]

5. If by lifted out of poverty you mean responsible for the theft and rape of

indigenous farm land to slave away in a maquiladora who gets death threats if they try to unionize then yes.And just because people dont care if child slaves made their over price tennis shoes doesnt make it right.You are right tha the Drug war is also responsible but take a look at my post If freetrade truly helps them than why did the bolivians oust their leader over the issue?

[PretzelWarrior]

10. maybe because they are protectionist like most people

maybe because some populist whipped them into a nationalistic frenzy saying our jobs need to come from here and stay here. Maybe because 95% of the people in the world don't understandt he paradigm shift that has occurred with globalization. There will be peaks and valleys and the role of government is to set limits on corporate behavior so the workers and people at large are protected from corporate abuse and malfeasance.

It is a clear case economically that has been tested over and over. Our globe's possibilities curve goes up dramatically when peole specialize and engage in free trade. It will mean higher productivity and higher standard of living across the board.

It is the abuses attendant with those sea changes that government should work to curb.

What is a wage slave? Maybe people living this country with high prices, energy price gouging, etc. are wage slaves more than the folks in Vietnam and Bolivia. The role of the US and the United Nations should be to ferret out the abuses and deal with offending companies and governments.

However, US has lost it's moral platform with preemptive wars and absolute disregard for international law.

Kerry would restore that faith and provide power to those institutions protecting people.

Vote for Kerry if you want better life for those people. Allow Bush to crush a lesser guy if you want things to deteriorate further.

It's that simple.

[corporatewhore]

16. What about FAIR trade?

Trade based on
# Producers receive a fair price - a living wage. For commodities, farmers receive a stable, minimum price.
# Forced labor and exploitative child labor are not allowed
# Buyers and producers trade under direct long-term relationships
# Producers have access to financial and technical assistance
# Sustainable production techniques are encouraged
# Working conditions are healthy and safe
# Equal employment opportunities are provided for all
# All aspects of trade and production are open to public accountability
Now about the war kerry fought for soliders who were being used as tools in an unjust war in vietnam now what is he doing what can i expect from him?

[PretzelWarrior]

25. I agree with your points. I just feel it's naive to believe Dean

or Kucinich would have any shot at 1)beating Bush and 2)changing the big corporate political apparatus in this country. THese things have been and will be done by degrees through the efforts of Democratic leadership.

That's my point. Get the Democrats back in office and chip away at the hold GOP has on Congress and we'll see some things happen along the lines of what you are discussing.

I see you bringing up a long standing deep-seated issue as a negative against Kerry when you could claim the same thing for Dean. Did Dean ban imports into Vermont that were from slave labor countries? Did he march on Washington and demand change for those workers? I mean be honest. We could almost all of us be accused of not doing enough to bring about equitable trade and better standards around the world. Some of the poorest people in this country are still rich by comparison to world population.

[Taeger]

29. I once believed in globablization

I believe in it no longer. The troughs aren't transitional, they are permanent. They are intentionally eroding the power of democratic nation states to turn all labor worldwide into virtual slaves.

The Maquiladoras HAVE NOT increased the standard of living for people in Mexico. In fact there are EVEN MORE illegals seeking to come to the US than in pre-NAFTA days.

Mexico has EVERYTHING it needs to make itself a healthy and prosperous nation WITHOUT the US. The poor people's of Mexico need to take control of their government. Until they do, no amount of "globalized" factories will help the citizens of Mexico.

[PretzelWarrior]

31. look at Taiwan. look at China's ascendancy.

take a look at India. These countries are seeing a higher and higher standard of living due to free trade. Impoverished people are getting more of the pie because the pie is getting bigger for them. I agree the system of global trade is not perfect. BUT THAT is the role of leadership in the world the US shouuld be playing. THe US government can be a force for great good regarding world trade and equity. Kerry can do it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Taiwan was very protectionist

and placed heavy requirements on foreign investors, especially requirements for technology transferes and training of Taiwanese for technical and management positions.

China's development has come at the price of incredible social inequality and the total loss of their social safety net. Some people have become millionaires, but there are millions of unemployed and illegal workers.

I don't know much about India except to note that it has just as many losers as winners in the race to the bottom.

[girl gone mad]

4. Not to mention..

One of his top advisors is a big player in the radical WOD in Colombia.

I won't be sending any money Kerry's way.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[NewYorkerfromMass]

8. chill

please

[bobbyboucher]

47. Nice, NYfM

Helping to keep the peace is a good thing.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duncan Grant]

11. OMG! That bandwagon has made more laps around here than Mark Spitz! n/t

[PretzelWarrior]

12. no...I supported Kerry last year on this very board. I was swayed

momentarily by Dean...but his message and persona and issues let me down. I don't have a vote that counts. How about this? I will vote for Dean in Oregon in May once it's clear that Kerry will win the nomination. Then you can add it to Dean's total.

No bandwagoning here. I tend to call it campaigning for a democratic vote. No one's here holding guns to people's heads at the polls or presenting a one box ballot slip.

It's my free speech moment. And now you've had yours.

[Casablanca]

13. Kerry is a sitting duck. Why? By the numbers ...

1. "Passes the image test". With liberals only. Not fiscal conservatives who are pissed off about both liberal and neo-con spending. Not moderate swing voters who have come to despise all insider politics. Not union workers who don't see Kerry running a strong anti-corporatist administration.

All of the above are not voting Republican. They're not voting for Kucinich, as fine as candidate as he is. They're sending $10, $50, and $100 checks to Dean in hopes they'll be able to vote for him against Bush.

2. "A combat veteran". Cleland was a combat veteran running in the South. Clark _ran_ a war and served in the same war as Kerry. Colin Powell is a combat veteran. You are far overestimating the "combat veteran" appeal for anyone who isn't a vet themselves.

3. "A tested member of the government process". The current government process is a big part of the problem with America. Clinton sold out the progressive cause because he was such a good insider operative. Same for Kerry when he voted for the Iraq War. Same for Edwards when he co-sponsored the Patriot Act.

4. "Man who clearly gets the message out there." Kerry routinely dissembles. He has not spoken specifics any more than Edwards has out of political expediency, except while in anti-Dean or anti-Bush mode. His message on the war is clouded by his own flip-flops. Kucinich and Dean are the only consistent voices against the Iraq War. And that issue is THE 8 million pound gorilla that Rove fears.

5. "Polling consistantly". By right-wing pollsters who want the Iraq War taken off the campaign table. By the corporate media who don't want a candidate that is openly against media consolidation (Dean), but _do_ want insiders who have never seriously attacked the idea and won't as president (Kerry and Edwards).

6. "Battle tested." By whom? When has Kerry _ever_ dealt with the kind of circular firing squad tactics that Dean has dealt with, and has not folded? Did he stand with Barbara Lee against the 9/14 Anti-Terrorism Act? Did he stand with Wellstone against the Iraq War? Did he stand with Kucinich against the Patriot Act? NO!

Dean has held his ground under serious fire - in this campaign and as governor. Clark has - in his standing against his superior officers in the Kosovo War. Clark took the hits and was proven right. Kucinich has most of the time - in his career of being outvoted on progressive issues.

7. "Radicals out of office." Kerry voted with the radicals when it counted, and is now trying to cover his tracks. Notwithstanding his liberal voting record (which will be a liability with many voters), his tactic is "Do a lot of little good things, but sell out on the major battles." We need better than that from a Dem President.

8. "Dean isn't gonna do it." Very dogmatic reasoning there. Dean has taken and is taking serious media hits and is still very much in the running. He has proven fiscal conservative credentials that no other Dem candidate has. He has a better-than-Clintonian talent to speaking the truth to the sound-bite media clearly and concisely. He is consistently supported by grassroots funding that Kerry could never get, because he's funded by non-Dems and non-liberals whose past support of Bush has been repeatedly betrayed - by both Bush and the Dems (like Kerry and Edwards) that has supported Bush in the crucial battles.

9. "Clark has skeletons." Kerry has skeletons. Dean has skeletons. Kucinich has skeletons. And we haven't even heard half of them yet. Don't worry, the Rove machine will remind you.

[girl gone mad]

18. Good post.

Let me add this from my Moderate Mother-in-Law, someone who should be votting Democrat based on income, concern for the nvironment, etc.:

"Kerry is okay, but I think I'm going to vote for Bush. I know he isn't perfect, but I still like him anyways."

Kerry isn't the person that will inspire those fence-sitters to switch. Rove will play up that "likeability" factor, something that Kerry basically lacks and doesn't have anything to make up for it.

[PretzelWarrior]

23. if she "likes bush" at this stage...she's probably a lost cause

for 2004. I don't think Dean is "likeable" from sound bites I've seen. Clark may seem likeable, but he's absolutely a political neophyte. No precedent for someone like him doing well from the Dem party. Ike did it....but that was after the great triumphalism of WW2.

[Casablanca]

38. The problem with some mother-in-laws ...

My mother-in-law supported Bush in 2000 with the rationale that "He may be an idiot, but at least he has good advisors." She's still eating those words.

She's a local Republican (a moderate - social liberal, fiscal conservative) politician herself, so I was particularly disappointed with that groupthink-fed non-thinking coming from her.

[PretzelWarrior]

40. worst combination. an idelogically opposed mother-in-law

fortunately, my mother-in-law is not a US citizen and can't participate. She likes Bush because the Chinese thought Bush Sr. was okay. I think They might feel differently now.

[Taeger]

30. Clark is an outsider

The great thing about Clark is that he is a relative outsider to politics. He can jump in and "do the right thing" without having to trip over his fuck-ups from previous years.

I'm not 100% convinced about Moore and trade policy. Though, I am pretty confident given that Michael Moore has endorsed Clark after speaking with him. If you'll recall, Michael Moore has a special place in his heart for people who move manufacturing overseas.

BTW, I would LOVE to see the return of "TV Nation" to someplace more inviting like Comedy Central. The bit where he challenged CEOs to do mundane chores associated with their industries was classic. He challenged Bill Gates to format a floppy disk. The only taker was the CEO of Ford who agreed to change the oil of a Ford Taurus.

[Casablanca]

36. His outsiderness has the advantages you mention, but ...

There is a risk that voters won't see enough there to vote _for_ him on anything. I think his military record is a fine one, but his missteps in getting his message together about the Iraq War is a potential liability, similar to Kerry and Edwards. But his criticisms of how Bush is handling the war would be much more authoritative than with Kerry.

Agreed on TV Nation. I especially liked their polls.

[Lorien]

44. Amen

I'll be passing on Kerry, thanks.

[bushwakker]

14. thanks

pretty lonely around here being a kerry supporter.

[copithorne]

17. This is a reason???

"Clark has too many pieces of baggage that are uncovered."

Like what? I have no idea what you are talking about.

CNN/MSNBC/FOX told you which Democrat to vote for. You're happy to oblige because it beats thinking about it.

Kerry will get beat by Bush and the kleptocracy can continue. You'll wonder, 'what happnened.'

The Cable News Networks are Not Your Friend. They do not have your interests at heart. Do not take their advice on who to vote for. They are only interested in buying and selling you.

[girl gone mad]

19. Clark has...

laid his baggage out for all to see.

Kerry is the one keeping secrets and keeping his positions secret (likely because they're secret to him until he knows which way the political winds are blowing).

[PretzelWarrior]

20. sorry. my comment about Clark was a bit glib...

but I don't appreciate your insinuation that I merely wait for a frontrunner and then go for that one. I have put a lot of thought into it.

Think about it. If you are right about the "sheeple" voting for the guy puffed up by media, Dean would have won in a landslide in the first two states.

Here's what I meant about Clark. He's never run for office. Not even for dog catcher. He has been in a hierarchical organization--the army since he was a cadet. He has not been exposed to the klieg lights of a national campaign. What is more, he's made much more high profile decisions that can be spun into horrible nightmares for him by Bush and company while serving as a senior officer as a general. I just don't think you appreciate how much he would be battered by the process.

Take a look at how much he fumbled and repeatedly apologized, restated, etc. in a case where he wasn't even a single target. He was fighting against several strong guys but he didn't have the laser focus of being a front runner. Now imagine him dealing with the Republican machine attacking him every day with all kinds of new "disclosures" about his investment banking and military disputes and on top of that the really strong dem activist base questioning the Dem in Name Only distinction...I don't feel he's a strong opponent for Bush.

[Casablanca]

22. A fine "numbers over rationality" pseudo-argument there.

I'm sure Bush isn't feeling lonely either.

[krkaufman]

21. Clark has too many pieces of baggage that are uncovered??

What are you talking about?

Your statement, simply put, is uninformed. And as you supplied no facts to refute, merely a vague smear (regarding luggage?; wha?), I won't bother to list the myriad ways in which Clark is a superior candidate to Kerry (and the rest).

[jpgpenn]

24. I would never vote for that backstabber!!!!

[progressiverealist]

26. If Clark drops or when Kerry accepts the nomination I am 100% with you

and I am a Wisconsin voter.

I am excited about John Kerry and will work for him hard if and when my guy is out.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. That's GREAT! I Welcome your comments.

I just want this Dem win so bad I can feel it in my gut every day. It has almost come to define me. I feel it is that important to us and our way of life. I have a daughter. I care about this country. I can't just up and emigrate.

[progressiverealist]

28. I also have a daughter.

18 months old- so I'm not leaving either.

[PretzelWarrior]

32. so...what is your idea about the pulse of people in Wisc.?

I know Oregon is dutifully behind the progressives and will almost surely fall in line behind the Dem delegate come November especially in light of Bush policies. It could be a little close because the race was close in 2000 much like Wisconsin.

My significant other is kind of Dean supporter, but she will be behind Kerry if that is the party choice.

[Maat]

35. I agree....I have a daughter too.

I like Dean. I like Clark. I like Dennis K. I like Kerry. I will support the Democratic nominee with all my heart. I am an older mom in her forties who has a 7-year-old daughter. I remember a time when women were encouraged to get advanced degrees, pursue a profession. I never remember having to worry about how dissent was perceived before this administration...I never remember having to worry about which books I purchased or how an organization I belong to was being perceived. As long as I wasn't involved in an attempt (via an affirmative act with intent) to overthrow the government...I could join whichever organization I wanted to....and dissent peacefully. Since I completed a Constitutional Law class, I appreciate our Constitution, Bill of Rights, case law, and the letters of our founding fathers. It is sad that one day I might have to tell my daughter that freedoms have been permanently lost. Anyone but Bush 2004!

[PretzelWarrior]

37. I appreciate your input! Thank you! I respect your learned

opinion on the subject. I hope you can participate with your knowledgable opinions and thought provoking comments. You really brought it into perspective for me again. We shouldn't have to discuss what freedoms we're likely to lose. It shouldn't be an issue. These creeps are so arrogant they don't even think we should hear something from them on this front.

They just say: "Trust us. we'll protect you. just go shopping and SHUT UP!"

[Piperay]

33. I'll definitely support him IF

he gets the nomination and donate too him but until then I am giving my support to General Clark.

[PretzelWarrior]

34. I definitely understand the hold on your support of him.

I have good things to say about Clark, Edwards, Dean, and Kerry. None of them make me feel bad about the direction of Dem party. Only Kucinich, Sharpton, Lieberman, and Gephardt bothered me.

I'm just hopeful the same grass roots effort prevailing early will carry the day later this year regarding campaign contributions, volunteering, etc. and finally getting the vote out!

[Maat]

39. Take care guys..

love your comments. And b...looks like we agree on Clark, Kerry, and Dean, anyway. Constitutional Law makes one hate how this adm has desecrated the spirit of our law...unnecessarily expanding warrantless searches and delayed notification (re search warrants). It gets technical..but authorities must knock-and-announce..before entering and searching..unless the guy is basically flushing the dope down the john and they have to enter quickly (this situation has nothing to do with what somebody has read). There is no reason why an officer should not have to document probable cause that someone was involved in a crime before getting a warrant...and then have to knock and announce...somebody isn't going to drop a book down the toilet! Too much potential for abuse! We need to pass the SAFE Act!

[PretzelWarrior]

41. kick. please read if you haven't already.

please don't do a character assassination on Kerry because your guy tanked tonight, ok?

[oasis]

43. kick

[dawn]

45. I'll support him if he wins the nomination.

Until then, I'm donating to Edwards. My #2 is Clark.

But I'm ABB. Of course I'd support Kerry if he gets the nod.

[mb7588a]

46. kick!

[Leilani]

48. Too Many Pieces of Baggage?

Yeah, to carry around all his medals & knighthoods.

Kerry & Edwards supporters here tonight are definitly not making friends & influencing people.

Maybe you should take a lesson from General Clark on diplomacy.

[Foehammer]

49. No I'm not going to help Kerry in WI.

Even if he gets nominated I wont help Kerry.
Becuase if he does the True change that this country needs will be
out the window.
They say Vote make a difference, change things for the better.
just another same ol' same ol' Dem from the East coast. yawn.

[oasis]

50. If you help to register voters you'll make a valuable contribution.

[IndianaGreen]

51. Our response to John Kerry, and other Bush war enablers like him

will be heard on March 20, the International day of protest against war and the occupation of Iraq.

Kerry will not end the war. Kerry will not bring the troops home. Kerry will turn a Republican war into a Democratic war. Kerry will not repeal PATRIOT Act.

While far too many Democratic voters have been seduced by the false promises of "electability" (which came out of a DLC focus group), the rest of us progressives must continue the struggle against militarism, revanchism, and imperialism regardless of whether the President of the United States has an "R" or a "D" after his name.

Global Day of Action on March 20 to mark first day of Iraqi invasion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=4583