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woodleydem Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 01:56 AM
Original message
I'm a life long Democrat (Gore and Kerry voter), and I see where Tancredo
is coming from. Now, hear me out. I am a first generation Indian-American (born in FL, my parents LEGALLY immigrated in the 1960's) who is currently a law student in Chicago. My family has had numerous family members in India who have LEGALLY applied for visa's to come visit us and have been denied. Why should the millions of potential immigrants who have fairly "waited in line" to enter this country continued to be denied while millions of ILLEGAL immigrants be essentially rewarded for their patently illegal behavior? Let me repeat, I am 24 years old and am about as diehard a Democrat as one can be, but as a law student, I have a profound respect for the law.

Besides, how can Democrats who support Feingold's censure (which I support on the pure basis that Bush violated the law) support amnesty for law-breaking illegals? I am not just playing devil's advocate--at this point, any bill which proposes to reward illegals with citizenship will not get my support. Somebody give me a reason why I'm wrong.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. What do YOU propose we do with 11 million people who
were in the same boat you were? To assume these people haven't waited in line is facile. (Disclaimer: I'm sure they all haven't).
I don't have an answer, and I'm glad you're 'legal'. Just imagine what you'd be going through if you weren't. And I resist the expression "law-breaking illegals"; some of these people have lived here longer than I've been alive. I'm lucky enough to be an American citizen.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. The issue is a red herring, there is no intention to stop illegal aliens
by either side!

That's the best reason I can offer, it's all a fraud.

There is a real-world economic imperative driving illegal immigration. The imperative is aided to a degree by labor shortages in some parts of the country, typically where there is growth. In the Greater DC area, there are many undocumented workers because we're growing like crazy. In Pittsburgh, which is static, there are few.

Whatever happens, we have 10 million undocumented Hispanic workers here, many of whom are working 'on the books.' They pay taxes, are held accountable to the laws, and, in some areas are given rights, de facto. The people who employ many of the undocumented workers also oppose illegal immigration and candidates who oppose it. You figure that out. I can't other than to say, all legislation is divorced from reality on this. Tancredo is just bloviating. Check out his contributions and see how many land developers/builders give to him. I'll bet you'll find some and if you do you find people who employ a lot of the undocumented.

I'm glad you're here and I hope the rest of your family gets citizenship. We're enriched by immigration. In the case of those here, don't expect them to leave anytime soon, regardless of the law. Their labor is a necessity.
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woodleydem Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'm not "here." I was born and raised here, but I don't get how their
"labor is a necessity." Paul Krugman of the NY Times had a great column a couple of days ago in which he basically stated as economic fact (backed up by statistics) at how LITTLE the economy is affected positively by illegals. And he is basically pro-guest worker program. To me, it isn't about pro-business or not. It's about one simple fact--do not reward people for breaking the law. There are MILLIONS of people out there that want to live the American dream, who wait and apply through LEGAL means to come here, and are denied. And then we, as a nation, are turning around and rewarding those who didn't have the discipline to apply for legal entry? Sounds very hypocritical to me, and while I HATE being on the side of any Repug on any issue, Tancredo isn't completely off base here.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. There is no law...
Read the Patriot Act, or try. It's a convoluted series of cross references designed to eliminate all legal protections we may have if we're able to afford litigation ad infinitum.

Look at the Iraq war. Lies to get there, corruption by contractors all over the place, billions unaccounted for, torture, etc.

Look at environmental regulation (sic). It doesn't exist. We now put mercury in the eco system, or it's proposed and those proposing it are not immediately jailed.

Look at Enron. The Feds are trying real hard for convictions. What a joke.

There is no law. Why would immigration be any different.

I didn't say that the undocumented workers add to the economy. I said that their presence was, in part driven by economic needs. I live in an area with 2% unemployment, most of them high paid tech workers, most of the unemployment transient. I can't speak for other parts of the country (but I'd like to know). Here, without undocumenteds, there are a whole host of services that will not be done, including building homes, repairing homes, and a host of service jobs.

I didn't collapse the law, I favor a nation of laws. We now a nation of no-bid, nonsense regulations and dictates passing as law that merely serve the economic needs of those who control the legislators with contributions and other inducements and a nation of 'whims like any immigration legislation I've seen.

Figure out a way for labor to migrate with fair wages and benefits and you'll solve the problem.

Complain about no legal process in one section of a political entity where law has dissolved into a rubber stamp of economic power and you're just wasting your time. The ENTIRE SYSTEM stinks to high heaven. We have no real opposition party. There are no free elections. Our leaders care about their constituents, who happen to be those who fund them to get elected and hire them when they "retire."

Sorry, it's all crazy.
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Carla in Ca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Right on, autorank!
The rethugs are just trying to find an issue. This one didn't work out for them. Frankly, I don't see any issue gaining traction for them.

And woodleydem, to DU


BTW autorank, don't miss my thread in the CA forum. Arnie is in big trouble again.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thnx, on my way now;) music to my ears.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. AR, I propose that you and Husb2Sparkly get together and form a
Edited on Fri Mar-31-06 09:43 AM by blondeatlast
political consulting firm. Between the 2 of you, you can cut through the BS with the best of them--hell, probably better than the rest.

Nice work, and I couldn't agree more.

I'm damn glad you are on our side!

Edit: Bushg_Eats_Beef as well, IMHO.

Damn you guys are smart!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Wow, you made my day. Thank you.
Husb2Sparkly and Bush_Eats_Beef are two names I always watch for and enjoy reading.

Husb and I might get in trouble since we tend to get a bit foul mouthed (much to Husb's better half) but we'll work it out.

:hi:
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
49. Aw shucks!
(Head down, moving my toe in an arc and trying to appear angelic .... all the while looking like the clown I am)

Ya gotta put up with a foul mouth if ya wanna have me consult.

Blondie, yer a sweetheart! You made my day!

Autorank's smarter than me, though. So you got it right on that score!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. in thread RECOMMENDATION #1
Dead spot on autorank.

This whole thing is complete BS. Aside from some facts that I had to DIG to find (no need for those you see) this whole thing is an excercise in hot air.

Ding ding M***F*** DING autorank.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. Well thank you. That's the nicest message I've received in months;)
:yourock:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Here's the real problem
BushCo did everything short of holding the door open and waving these people in. His made noise about border security, then gutted the INS and funding for patrols of the border, detection equipment, vehicles, and so forth. He nudge-nudged, and wink-winked, and he's been doing it since he made his first call from the White House, NOT to the Canadian PM, as is CUSTOM for incoming presidents, but instead to Vicente Fox (he didn't care for that 'durn Frenchie' Chretien, and that was his childish way of showing it).

This situation didn't happen overnight. And he shoulda been a bit attuned to it, seeing as he was the governor of a state that BORDERS Mexico and has dealt with this issue. But no...he handled this about the same way that he handled eschewing wars of choice, and nation-building...he just fucked it up completely. He's had more than five years to do something, and he's done jackshit.

But hey, there's midterm elections coming up; gotta pretend that this shit he's been IGNORING for five years is suddenly, somehow, OVERNIGHT, a CRISIS. Never mind that undocumented workers helped clear the WTC and rebuild the Pentagon...no one was sweating this issue back then, were they?

And it helps when joblessness is growing, and people who have been out of work so long they no longer qualify for unemployment are willing to take some of those shitwage jobs they wouldn't have considered in the past....

Xenophobia...it's what's for dinner!!!
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Pffft. You can't blame Bush without blaming Clinton.
Bill Clinton's Speech At The Signing Ceremony For the North American Free Trade Agreement

September 14, 1993

I believe that NAFTA will create a million jobs in the first 5 years of its impact. And I believe that that is many more jobs than will be lost, as inevitably some will be, as always happens when you open up the mix to a new range of competition.

http://www.craypoe.com/1/historic_docs/speeches/clinton_nafta_speech.html
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, yes, you can--Monkeyboy was the one TALKING a good fight
but he did jackshit about it. It's sorta like "Bin Ladin Determined to Attack Within United States" only the text reads "A Million Mexicans, Central Americans and South Americans are Coming over the line every fucking year, Chimpy!!!"

He's had FIVE YEARS to address this issue. Why NOW?

Because there are midterms coming up, and people are tired of hating the French for not bein' with us, embarrassed that, shit, they were right, finding that Freedom Fry crap a bit lame and childish, and wantin' some of that good food and wine. They're also tired of hating Muslims, and besides, it's too confusing to figure it all out--"Gee Martha, OK, we like the freedom loving people of EyeRack, but we don't like the insurgents. And which ones do we like the best? The Shia--heh, heh, sounds like shit, dunnit? Or them Soooonis...hell, always thought that was the name a'that kid Woody Allen married!!! And how do we all feel about they Kurds an' whey??? Ah'm con-FUSED!!!" They're just too familiar now, so people aren't freaking out anymore at turbans and hijabs.

Time to beat up on Pablo and Carlos, who "are takin' our jerrrrrrrbs!!!" They'll beat that tired mule all the way through to November, if they can get any mileage out of it.

And then, they'll do a little halfassed patching, and forget about it.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Well, if we had an actual Opposition Party this wouldn't have happened.
But apparently our Dem Reps learned how to get comfortable with their limos and cheap maids.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. It would be interesting to see exactly who has what sort of household help
For some reason, I don't think the Dems are heavy on undocumented workers...
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. You've got to be kidding...
any of the wealthy people in the DC area are probably hiring....this is a true blue area....they're democrats. I've done some contracting work for wealthy dems here too...all I can say is some of their help speak a little english. You can probably look at any well of blue state and find the same thing.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
42. There are stinking rich Republicans in DC
They are certainly a CLEAR minority, but of the GOP in DC, you are hard put to find any in the working class and poor neighborhoods, unless perhaps they are looking for a trendy little restaurant, or lost. Southeast is NOT a GOP neighborhood, but Kalorama...that's another story--you can find them there. They cluster in the wealthier neighborhoods rather disproportionately, and live side by side with better-off senior staffers and elected officials, who maintain their voting status in other states (Karl Rove or Hillary Clinton e.g.).

Despite their obvious minority, they are very active--on their little website they even urge their members to "call talk radio." http://www.dcgop.com/
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Fairfax, VA Wealthiest County in Nation -- 65% Dem - 35% Rep...Now...
...hear this and it's interesting.

In VA, contractors hire Hispanic workers in droves. They are required by law to have proof of citizenship. The law allows a photocopied Social Security card as proof. That's taken, recorded, and
the workers are then enrolled for state/local taxes and workmen's compensation. They're covered by the VA labor laws (which are not that great but better than nothing by a long shot). They have a right to the same working conditions others have, they get unemployment, they get workmen's compensation if they're hurt and they get minimum wage or, often times, more. Some employers are even starting to offer health care plans to attract skilled labor.

It's all based on the Federal law requiring ID. Interesting isn't it. The state DOES NOT report any problems with citizenship when it provides unemployment. If you're hurt, your workmen's compensation goes through. There's no bait and switch.

It's a crazy way of ensuring that presumably undocumented workers (safe presumption) have benefits and rights.

You tell me what this means.

I think it means that we have a model program in VA based on false IDs. The workers get the benefits of American workers and save the documentation to be here, which is huge of course, they're getting a prevailing wage.

As for "wealthy" people in the DC area, I say that this is the standard. It should be like this all over America. If it were not for the greedy ass, tiny mindns running the country it would, and quickly.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. I don't work in DC but the Maryland suburbs...
let's just say, the wealthiest people I've come across are dems. I live in the exurbs...and that's where you'll find more rural repub types. Beyond that, the blue states are the richest in this country, if you want to see poor....just head for any red state.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. I agree Clinton screwded up with NAFTA
But bush was pushing to bring in a bunch of cheap labor as soon as he took office.

I truly believe that bushit escalated things and God knows there is no oversight on anything anymore.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. See that's not what bothers me
In fact, I could care less about Tancredo's rants.

Rather, it's the downward depression of wages that this "guest worker" program will make worse. It will create a whole class of subservient non-unionized workers with no rights that will put pressure on American workers to accept more cuts in wages and benefits.
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think you are prosecuting the wrong defendant.
Yes, there are millions of people here that violate our immigration laws while there are countless others waiting in-line to do it within the law or the right way. None of the illegal entrants could stay here if they were not first aided by a system of employers that take advantage of their under-the-radar status.

I say prosecute the employers of this low wage workflow first. If there is no work, there is no other reason to come to this country other than what is left of our democracy–a distant memory of what was once a great promise and beacon to the world at large. This is now essentially a fascist regime that is in debt to the world at large. It is a situation that is not unfamiliar to many South American neighbors.

Keep studying. Perhaps you can help revive our democracy.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. Listen to Kerry's comments on the issue on Ed Schultz
He is solidly behind Kennedy and McCain's bill, but he also feels that employers who knowingly hire illegals also have some responsibility. He shares your respect for the law (as you likely heard in 2004). His informal comments near the beginning of this clip are excellent and do deal with some of your issues without resorting to Tancredo's extremism.

Link to clip:
http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/33006Kerry.mp3
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. And he does a long explanation of why Kennedy's bill is not "amnesty".
If one studies John Kerry's career, it is obvious that he has a huge respect for the rule of law. Listening to him explain this on Ed Schultz, it seems he must have put a lot of thought into whether he could support Kennedy's bill. I don't know, but perhaps Kerry had some input into crafting the application process in the bill. And he does insist that there should be enforcement against employers who exploit labor by illegal hiring.

That said I don't know if the Kennedy bill contains any specific provision to tighten the enforcement against businesses that hire illegally. If it's not there, I would hope for an amendment.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. If employers can pay substandard wages legally
through a temporary worker program (400K per year and increased as necessary) why would they need to hire illegal immigrants?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Because they could pay sub - substandard wages
Seriously, There are businesses currently hiring illegals who may try to ignore the new rules (if they pass).
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. So now we'll have second and third class citizens.
Lovely. We'll give the UAE a run for their money yet. I know, I'm not being a good liberal just a racist boor.

I have little doubt that we'll end up with a temporary worker program.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. These illegals will be at the back of the line-behind those who've legally
applied to enter this country. AND they will have to wait for six years to get at the back of the line.

It is not amnesty, it is a very long path to possible citizenship.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. This is the new "wedge issue", only this time it's splitting the GOP...
We need to back off and let them "eat their own", like they do with us. We need to shut up and sit down, and let them deal with it.

TC
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. RECOMMENDATION#2
Exactly. This is actually pretty funny to watch.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. Agreed, except since we have no power, we SHOULD talk up
the issue.

I think we can pay heed to the enormous elephant in the room that THEY don't want to discuss--employer sanctions/fines/punishment.

Other than that, we can address the issue abstractly and put the focus on the Rs.

This is a tactic they've used for years. I say it's our turn--as long as we have no power whatseover, we can't lose on the issue.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
21. back of the line.....don't matter(my rant)

the "high" and mighty reps and senators..say the illegals will go to the back of the line......yea.right.there is NO back of the line for them....they are already living in the US....whats the punishment for them.a fake line in the mind?..........what the hell do they care...they've been here for years...........don't make one bit of difference..........they will still benefit from our schools and hospitals......suck off the taxpayers.....

Back of the line my ass......the back of the line is for people who are waiting to ENTER this country Legally......

Don;t let that phrase fool you........there is no BACK OF THE LINE for these ILLEGALS
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
26. Look in the short run it is often easier to do it the illegal way
but in the long run it is always better to do it legit.

I know that doesn't make the wait and the rejection any easier but that is how it is.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
27. My hubby was just sworn in two weeks ago, originally from New Delhi.
He sees this whole issue as smokescreen of bullshit (fwiw, we live in AZ).

The salient point is--it's not just the immigrants who are acting illegally. Why are you ragging on them when literally millions of businesses hire them with little or no thought to their status?

Visit a Home Depot in Phoenix any weekday and you can see the pickups--WITH CONTRACTORS LOGOS ON THE SIDES--waving 5, 6, 7, 8, fingers in the air and loading up their pickups like the workers are so much concrete or lumber. In the contractors' eyes, that's essentially what they are--they just have to feed them is all.

"Patently rewarded for their illegal behavior?" Some fine reward they get. If they are living such a wonderful life, why not stop whining and join them--heh, heh, I didn't think so...

My friend, you'vce fallen for the spin. Be smart and know that nothing this administration does--or doesn't do--is in the nation's interest.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
29. "Profound respect for the law." As do we all, I'm guessing. Sooo...
what say, instead of punishing ONLY the illegals, as you seem to favor, we go after the businesse that hire them?

All I hear from you are rants about how awful those who are desperate enough to cross a brutal desert, but no intention of punishing the fat cats in Herman Miller chairs who exploit them like so much raw material?

You single out Tancredo's proposal, but make no mention of going after the businesses, which is one part of the issue I see almost every DUer agreeing on. It's often proposed in border state legislatures, but routinely shot down. Why do you suppose that is?

What's that? Did I hear you think...

MONEY?

See--we can come to a meeting of the minds.

Until we can start to think with a solution in mind, we're lost. We have a unifying approach to the issue--let's say we start from there.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
30. It's not about people. It's about corporations who refuse to pay...
...a decent wage. Period.

NGU.


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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. Why CAFTA and NAFTA and no "free trade" for the worker?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. DING! DING! DING! No more calls, we have a winner.
Perfect response, bloody perfect.

"Free trade for the worker" is a great phrase.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. responded in wrong place see my reply to myself.
:)
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thanks! Congrats to you and your husband!
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. Senator McCain was quoted as saying

On National Public Radio this morning, Senator McCain was quoted as saying that closing the border with Mexico would place an impossible burden on US government resources. All those illegals to jail and all those employers of illegals to jail are just too much for Senator McCain.

It is seldom that a US Senator is so candid and forthcoming. We should celebrate this moment for McCain. And we should apply his reasoning to Iraq. If the US government does not have the ability to close the border with Mexico, then it surely does not have the ability to remake a nation half-way around the world. Thank You, Senator McCain.

*********doesn't this mean we should withdraw from Iraq and put our monies and troops on our border?

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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. The Law And Justice Are Two Different Things
And there is a racist undertone in your post. Who is to say how many of those 11 million(a number I dispute BTW) are not of Indian origin?

Latino does NOT equal illegal. This issue is to stir up hatred of one set of illegals and you fell for it(and exposed yourself)

I link this once again

LAtinos are not the only illegals!
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
37. If the founding fathers had profound respect for the law
we'd be arguing about the Queen's hat wouldn't we.

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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
38. OMG. I hope someone with more time can tear into your ridiculous premise.
There is no equivalence between the president asserting imperial powers by breaking the law and people crossing an artificial political boundary to make a better life for their family.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. It's a false issue
I have a problem with those who foment this discord in our party.

It's almost as if they are trying to split us any way they can find.

It's not illegals burdening our schools, it's the lack of FED funds. It's not illegals burdening our ER's , its the vast droves of uninsured.

Illegals are a convenient way to distract us from all this crap the neocons have wrought.

When you have the best welfare for your family at heart,and are willing to endure what you must as an undocumented worker, how is this wrong?
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. I can't offer a reason why you are wrong, if no reason exists
you are right and get my vote. welcome to DU
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
40. PUNISH THE EMPLOYERS!!!!!
Edited on Fri Mar-31-06 03:03 PM by bush_is_wacko
I can trace my ancestry back to the Mayflower so I am one of the original "immigrants."

I REFUSE to buy all this drivel about Americans not wanting to do the jobs. AMERICANS don't want to do the jobs for the pay they are being offered. I know half a dozen AMERICAN women willing to clean toilets for a living but they want to be paid $12-$20 an hour to do it because it is a nasty job and damn hard work! An illegal alien will do the damn job for less than minimum wage and will be willing to sleep in a one bedroom shack with 20 OTHER illegal aliens to save enough money to bring in some more illegal aliens to do the same thing.

THIS IS HURTING OUR ECONOMY FOLKS! It has an effect on auto insurance, health insurance,job growth... You name it, it affects it.

This problem has to be treated the same as child labor was. Essentially these illegal immigrants are "cheap labor." We have to start punishing the employers. PERIOD. Not only will they likely stop coming over in droves at that point. OUR standard of living will increase. We will drive the crappy employers out of business and then they can complain about how difficult it is for them to find jobs! (Not really, because they won't have to face looking in the paper at a job that paid $30 an hour 10 years ago and now pays $10 an hour!)

On Edit: This is just another tax cut for the wealthy. It's time we all admitted that our government has found another way to force it's own citizens to work for slave wages. If you don't like what we are paying get out. the illegal aliens will do it for less!
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
45. Don't waste your time or energy on this

You have a nice, pious sense and experience of American citizenship and the idea that the laws are just and rightly enforced. And built on social bedrock.

I'm a second generation immigrant myself. I held similar notions for a long time. But that changed as I got a strong sense of integration into the social and spiritual history and dilemmas, the crimes and bad compromises, the whole edifice of laws is built upon. The writing, interpretation, and enforcement of the laws are smaller than the historical trends and pressures that the society...but for the Constitution, which is itself aching and straining these days.

You think that Latinos should be held to the same standard as you and yours are by the present government. But in that stance is a subscription to the assumptions implicit in the present laws, which are that the value of immigrants lies largely in their economic value and that certain kinds of wealth and education and cultural conformity are desirable above the rest.

It's easy to see why you find those criteria desirable, since you fit them nicely and they seem universal and 'objective' enough. One can't really write laws in other ways give the present conventions and American sense of identity at the moment, sense of what is equitable and affordable. But these criteria are not actually universal, not adequate to our larger social and historical situation if you look in a frame of, say two generations or three.

Latinos and American Indians simply have special status relative to all other groups, that is a fact of American life historically not accommodated or suppressed in the laws and vociferously, hatefully, denied...and in the vehemence of the denial, admitted to be a deep historical truth. The society as a whole is constructed on the injustice of the Settlement and the artifice of racial castes. Despite all the clever evasions, intellectual rationalizations, excuses, and insiduous or psychotic selfdelusions, the American Indian looms in the non-Native American imagination as something authentic beyond themselves and the key to a spiritually true relationship to the land and the American project. It's a moral and spiritual truth. Without the American Indian as reference point and secret center of the whole, non-Native people in this land are always adrift culturally and anxious, sense they are spiritually adrift. For a first generation immigrant his/her true sense of identity always remains in the land abroad, and this does not appear to be a true problem. For second and third and later generations, it is the central problem. You see the materialism, the zipping between silly obsessions, or the endless nostalgias, that all amount to evasion and inability to come to terms with the central problem, I'm sure.

In the American Indian and the form of him that is Latinos lies the solution to the American racial caste problem. Those are the people who will intermarry all racial groups. They are the people whose chosen practical/pragmatic basic approach to the world means disbelief in Eurocentrism, the faux and weak cultural center that still dominates the society, and means the end of most of the silly ideologies and ideological fashions and bizarre theories that are the root of misgovernment this country.

That is what I believe the undercurrents are in this debate about 'illegal immigrants'. 11 million people amount to 3-4% of the national population, there's no true economic pain in accommodating them. The real question is on one level honesty about American society as it is, about admitting that we invited them in, that arbitrary lines in desert sands are not reality or destiny, and that we know this faux quasi-European society we still have now is transient, has served its particular historical purposes and is passing. The question as I see it is whether Americans are absolutely loyal to race and the colonial past, on the one hand, or the ideal/experiment described in the Constitution is in true earnest, something which we as a collective truly live our lives for and die in sincere belief of.

And these are hard questions to deal with here and now. We live in times in which the loyalty to our ideals and loyalties to our pasts are in the greatest possible genuine tension, in which the commitments emanating out of our individual pasts are full of concrete particulars and those of the future are abstractions slowly becoming concrete particulars. In a generation or two we may feel them to be the other way around, the commitments emanating out of the past becoming ever more abstract to us and the future of little but very concrete structure.

So, you are technically correct in your average citizen in the here and now frame of the issue. But in larger frame, the issue of what these laws and conventions exist for as a purpose, rigid enforcement of them is a disservice and hampers the evolution of the society to what it is destined to become.




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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
50. OP, is something wrong in Mayberry? Barney's been looking
Edited on Sat Apr-01-06 10:14 AM by blondeatlast
all over for you. No word from you in over 24 hours?

Aunt Bea is beside herself.

Edit: typos galore.
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