Iraq,pull out now?What will happen?The concession is growing...

[oscarguy]

that this is what we should do. As I am beginning to see it,it is becoming a civil war between the Shiites and sunnis and to some degree the Kurds. Now the Kurds do deserve our continued support and are in a category of their own. Having said that, what do we have to lose by letting the sunnis and Shiites go at it? They seem determined to do that and they do have a very long history of doing so. Why the hell should we care? Do what we did in the Clinton era and support the Kurds and let the rest of them fight it out for ever and ever.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. I have an idea.... pick a favorite side.... create no fly zones.... arm

the people we like or can use the most... and then buddy up with whoever comes out on top.

[oscarguy]

3. Pres.Carter did something similar,supported Mujadeen vs USSR...

and these are the very people who are the terrorists who truly are our enemies. We need to be very careful who we pick as enemies in this arena, and event more careful who we chose as friends. The Kurds made their own break with Saddam and have proven themselves capable of defending themselves. We owe them our support for many reasons. They have been loyal to us. ...Oscar

[Clarkie1]

2. No.

And that is not a "pro-war" position.

There are pros and cons to everything in life. It is true that we never should have gone into Iraq. It is also true that at this time our troop presence is exacerbating the situation, but at the same time at least giving a CHANCE that Iraq will someday be ruled by law and not whatever militia has the most guns. This is why there should be no timeline for withdrawl. Our presence on the ground should be dictated by whether or not in the overall equation, our presence is most likely to benefit or be detriment to the best possible outcome of a bad situation. When the Iraq governent asks us to leave, we must leave. They have not asked us to leave, and to abandon Iraq at this time would be the height of irresponsibility.

There may come a day soon when the best we withdraw from Iraq completely, but that time is not now. There is still a chance our presence today can lead to a better outcome tomorrow.


March 27, 2006

Bridgett Quinn: Alright, let's talk a little about what we were slated to talk about and that being Iraq. Some trouble this weekend - a confrontation in the vicinity of or, by some accounts inside, a mosque and the US ambassador made a remark over the weekend, General - I wanted to get your thoughts on this - Iraqis are dying from the militia violence more now than from the terrorists. Do you agree with that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, I do. And I think that this strike against these militias in the vicinity of the mosque is a very hopeful sign because it indicates that our commanders on the ground are collecting intelligence on these militias and are going to go after them and that's the path to be able to break the logjam politically.

We have to use military force and military forces to get the leverage we need to get the Sunnis back into the government and then modify the constitution and it's not too late to do this now but we've got to act now. So I'm very encouraged by the action that the military took to go after the Shi'ite terrorists that were in the vicinity of the mosque. I think it's exactly the right course of action.

Bridgett Quinn: Now, what about Muqtada al-Sadr, somebody that people blame for a lot of the violence that we're seeing right now, the Shi'ite cleric, I guess some of the Iraqis that have been killed recently worked for him. Is he personally responsible for a lot of the Shi'ite on Sunni violence, in your mind?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it would seem to be that he's responsible for some of it but probably not all of it. He's playing a cagey game - he's in politics, he's got 30 representatives of his party in the Iraqi parliament but he's also got the militia and what we've got to do, what the Iraqis have to do, what the ambassador…our ambassador there has to do is cut out this militia structure. You can't have a political government that works and still have the people there represented by militias who go in and intimidate people on the side. So, that has to be changed and this action is the exact right action to do it.

Bridgett Quinn: Right, is there anything more we can do, the United States can do, to stop Muqtada al-Sadr from making trouble?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, I think that you'll see a series of actions like this action against the mosque. You'll see some discussions along the side. You're going to see more US forces oriented toward being able to take on the militia if necessary and you're going to see us pushing the Iraqi forces to do that.

Bridgett Quinn: And General, I wonder ultimately what all this recent violence means for the formation of a government there, you know you have the Prime Minister al-Jaafari, it would seem of course you want him to rein in any of the militia members who might be creating some of the violence. At the same time, he needs their political support, right?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's right. This is all part and parcel of the way this works in this country. It's fight, talk, talk, fight and the United States is there to try to carve away the militias so that it's all about talking rather than about fighting and that's why our troop presence there is so important right now.

http://securingamerica.com/node/806

[oscarguy]

4. Your reply is type I wished to get. Thank you. It is a difficult problem..

without an easy answer. I tend to agree with Gen. Clark in that there is still some real hope for something better than a terrible Civil War possible at this time, and that could change as time goes by. I do very much hope for the best there. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. ...Oscar

[Canadian_NewDemocrat]

5. yah

hmmm, yes indeed

[oscarguy]

7. Let me be the first to welcome you to DU. It is a very interesting place..

I am not sure that you event agree with me, but, you are allowed to have your own opinion here. It is good to here from a Canadian. ...Oscar

[newyawker99]

21. Hi Canadian_NewDemocrat!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Capn Sunshine]

6. "that's why our troop presence there is so important right now. "

Couldn't be more wrongheaded.

Unless it's important to have secondary targets for all the militias, like an equal opportunity thing.

Our mission in Iraq is to help our troops stay alive.

That would be best accomplished by getting them the hell out of there.

[oscarguy]

9. I have to agree with your desire Re: US troops out.As older man,won`t be..

sent there and I know it. I will not argue your point of view. ...Oscar P.S. I did do 2 tours in Viet Nam as a Marine, so do spare me the armchair warrior bit.

[Clarkie1]

20. Our mission in Iraq is to make the best of a bad situation.

No life is worth more than any other. We went there, we own the problem along with the Iraqi people. Until we are asked to leave or it is obvious our presence there cannot help counter the militia violence with is interferrring with a political solution.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Are you going to wait until January 20, 2009, to withdraw the troops?

How many combat tours will our GIs will have pulled by then, five, six, seven? How many people will have died by then?

All you and your preferred candidate are advocating is prolonging the inevitable. This war was lost a long time ago. It is time to bring our men and women back home!

[oscarguy]

11. Again,an absolutely valid point. I could not send anyone there. What

do we do? I am a Vet of Nam and agree with what you say,but what are we to do? I am not trying to be rhetorical. There is a limit to what these men and women will take and they are getting beyond it. Do we re institute the draft? I say recall all us old farts who support this war effort to any degree and take it from there. At least you will get rid of us. I cannot join because of age,injuries,and diseases I carry. They will not let me join up. I say: start a unit named " Older Vets Who Want to Fight ",or something like that and let us go over and see what we can do. There certainly are precedents. Germany drafted all men up to 65 years old in the VOLKSGRENADIERS during WWII. They actually performed quite well. ...Oscar

[IndianaGreen]

12. You've done your duty!

It is time to bring our comrades home and save countless of lives.

Let's not repeat Nixon's mistakes of "peace with honor"! There is no honor in being dead. We are losing our future by staying in this misguided war of choice.

[APPLE314]

10. We have two choices

We can sit back and wait on the "Not a Civil War" to blow up in our faces or we can pull back like Murtha suggests. It doesn't take much imagination to visualize an insurrection where we have battled to a standstill, are cut off, and 600 miles from our supplies and ammunition.

Our current administration is shitting peach seeds and are deathly afraid to move in fear of doing the wrong thing. Paralysis in Washington DC. is not a pleasant thing to see.

The big problem is that we can't be seen as favoring one Iraqi group over the other. Witness the Shiite turning on us saying we are favoring the Sunni. The Sunni say we are favoring the Shiite. The Kurds have the oil revenue and want Statehood and would like the rest of Iraq to get lost.

Who was it that said "IRAQ HAPPENS" ?

What we could do is divide our troops into three parts and assign them equally with the Kurds, Sunni, and Sh ia. Then we could say "Sick-em!!!" and let them fight it out. Because we divided our support troops evenly we would not appear to favor one group over the other. I only say this because there are no good solutions.

Meanwhile 2325 are dead, thousands wounded or maimed for life, and more on the way.


Let me offer up a question. What would we be doing if the roles were reversed and Iraq had invaded America and George Bush was on trial for his life?

[oscarguy]

13. Pull out and let the bastards kill each other,what the hell do we care!

That is a choice and perhaps a good one. You tell me my friend. I am not all that against that choice. It does seem to be the way things evolve so to speak when a centralized Government is removed. Shucks, we did have our own CIVIL WAR after all, why not let them have their`s? ...Oscar

[IndianaGreen]

14. Iraqis have a better chance at resolving their problems with the US out

We seem to be suffering from the "white man's burden" colonial mentality.

Arabs were studying mathematics and sciences when the white men in Europe were burning people at the stake for suggesting that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

[oscarguy]

17. Oh yes, but it is the reverse now.Fatwa issued:The Earth is flat,any...

who disagree are infidels and should be punished. This according to leading cleric in 1990`s Saudi Arabia, and on and on. ...Oscar

[Disturbed]

15. No matter what we want , do or say US Troops will be

in Iraq for many years. I think they will be there even if a Dem Admin is sworn in on '09. The level of force may be reduced but those 14 bases will be occupied by US Troops and Mercs. I don't envision any "Victory" of the US in Iraq. It will be turbulent for at least the next 12 years. Rumsfailed is somewhat of a loon but on this point I feel that he is correct.

The Kurds will never have their own soveriegn nation because the Turks will not stand for it. They may have a semi-autominous region which is what they mostly have right now.

[oscarguy]

19. I believe that is an accurate prediction. We are stuck there and I do...

not see us getting out anytime soon. The stakes are high and there is no easy way out. OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG. No one really knows how this will all play out. I was hoping we might be out in say 5 years. That is my best guess and that is all it is. We are still in Korea after 55 years or close to that. ...Oscar

[oscarguy]

16. Gee Whiz:A Marine recruitment NCO just showed up,will alter rules for...

me. It seems they will make an exception in my case as to qualifications. Be careful what you wish for: You may get it. Squat-thrusts for ever and ever:aye aye sir! ...Oscar

[lwcon]

18. Pandora's Box is Pandora's Box

It's quite possible that the situation is beyond a "rational" Western military solution.

We've ripped the scab off a very very old, very very bad wound. The kind that lasts for centuries.

Our own Ambassador to Iraq has repeatedly described the situation thusly: Pandora's Box.

It's like the old joke where a man walking through the desert finds another man, who has stripped himself naked and impaled himself on a cactus. He looks up and ask the man why he did it. The reply? "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

Well, we're naked and bleeding in the desert and don't have much of an explanation and little prospect for a painless way out.

Given that, "cutting and running" sounds as good as any other alternative I can think of. Oh, and a couple of impeachments would be a heck of a good idea, too.
___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[oscarguy]

22. I do think that you may be right. Maybe it is time to get out. There is...

of course a down side to that, but this is a tough choice our Nation will be making as time goes on. At this time I do not have a definate answer as to do we pull out now or not. I am grateful it is not up to me. ...Oscar

[w8liftinglady]

23. they are forcing the troops to take sides.

no winners,in my opinion.