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Anita Garcia Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 03:22 PM
Original message
My answer to the confederate flag
Every day I see a confederate flag. And, if I don't see one today, I know that I will see two tomorrow. Last night, while surfing on TV, I came upon Dukes of Hazard and there were "a whole mess of 'em" as props. One of the actors was even dressed in confederate military attire.

I am sick of this.
I am tired of this.
"This" must change.

Anne Braden and Jack Nelson, Jr. have passed. Before them, we lost Rosa Parks and Coretta Scott King.

The Civil Rights Movement is not over.
After 50 years of learning, we have just arrived at the fight.

Join the NAACP.
Membership is $30.00 annually.
It is my answer to the confederate flag.
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MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. On The Confederate Flag
Not that it's entirely relevant to this thread, but I had this little self-conversation about the CF a few weeks ago:

The Confederate flag is the ultimate expression of contempt for the United States. Not for civil rights, though obviously it stands against those as well, but for the United States itself. It is a symbol of secessionism, the desire NOT to be a part of this country. No matter how a Southerner (and I am one by birth) tries to explain it, as a war of Northern aggression, state's rightsm whatever, the CF cannot be described in any way that ignores an attempt to leave the union. Period.

Therefore, it is the ultimate expression of anti-US sentiment, it is unpatriotic and literally unAmerican in every sense of the word. Those who fly it or hold it in esteem are signaling a latent anti-American tendency.

Mostly
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Anita Garcia Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wow!
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 03:47 PM by Anita Garcia
Brilliantly said. Everytime I hear an explanation of why it is an appropriate explanation of "Southern Heritage" I wish I could say what you just said! The best I usually come up with is that while women were wearing hoop skirts, my friends' relations were tightening them up in the corsets underneath or picking the cotton to make the dresses. I try to talk about how the "Tara" version fails to recognize the horror and reality of lynchings, but they just don't get it.
Now, I'll say they are being anti-union. Thanks. I needed that!
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Confederates shot and killed American soldiers. Makes them terrorists
doesn' it?
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Exactly. Confederates were in FACT Terrorists.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Not really
Edited on Sat Mar-11-06 08:25 AM by dorkulon
They were a rebel militia. They wore uniforms; they targeted soldiers. Just like the Shiite militias, they weren't terrorists.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Comfederates were traitors.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Or another counter to the "heritage" argument
"Well, my great-great granpappy fought for the 134th Indiana Irregulars, Blue Blazer Division, and it's MY family's heritage to fire on any rebel sumbitch flyin' that treasonous rag.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. well said n/t
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Davros Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. As a non-southener...
...in NJ I see pickup trucks on occasion with the flag. To me it stands for TREASON for breaking away from the Union.
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is it really a big deal?
Seriously, the fact that quite a few people in the south fly the flag or have some of insignia bearing it (bumper stickers, posters, etc.) really isn't as bad some here think. From my experience, the vast majority (re-enactors being the only exception) of people who display it are idiots. I mean they are idiots in virtually every way. If the flag were banned, we'd lose our easy idiot identifier. That could be very bad, as idiots sometimes sound reasonable until you have 5 seconds to consider what they just said.

This is sort of tongue-in-cheek, but kind of true as well. In my everyday life, I've found that using it as an easy idiot identifier is worth far more than asking some semi-literate, incomprehensible moron for a reason for displaying it (one better than the standard 'it's my heritage'). Arguing against the flag only creates sympathy for idiots. Asking those who don't fly it, but are sympathetic to those who do, just why they're supporting morons might be more effective.
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Idiot identifier! I LOVE IT!
Other Idiot Identifiers:

Bush/Cheney bumper stickers.
Any NRA bumper stickers.
Anyone wearing a confederate cap.
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drthais Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. I agree - absolutely
my closest friend...happens to be a black woman
she lost her house in Mississippi in Katrina
and went back to Pass Christian for the annual Mardi Gras parade there
kind of to say goodbye
but was commenting on the confederate flag bunch
she always says - yes! go ahead and fly the flag
put it on your car - whatever

this way, she knows who the enemy is and where they are
she says this is much better than the idiots being in hiding

I must say I agree
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Get ready for the "It's pride in Southern Heritage" and "History" replies.
I've been through this on DU before!!

One point of view says, "I don't see it as offensive, I don't MEAN it as offensive, so it's not offensive."

My own point of view says, "Many people are offended by it, so it IS offensive."

I saw one ONCE here in Maryland and I was flabbergasted. (Then when I posted about it on DU, I was even more flabbergasted!) :hi:
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Anita Garcia Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I find it offensive
I was thinking about what kind of flag or sticker I could put on my car so the "flag" people would see that I am not a "flag" person.
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NinetySix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. There IS a legitimate place for the Confederate flag.
Following the integration of Southern schools in the 1950s, many Southern states incorporated the Confederate battle flag into their state flags, and South Carolina flew the Confederate battle flag in the third position on the staff atop the State House dome. I find it odd that the battle flag would be used rather than the official Stars and Bars of the Confederacy, but go figure. Anyway, during the debate that raged over SC's use of the flag over the State House in the 1990s, I always said that there was no problem displaying the flag in its proper place -- which was decidedly NOT the State House dome.

Most people even in Columbia don't know that just across Sumter Street is a museum called the Confederate Relic Room, a perfectly acceptable repository of antebellum and Civil War-era artifacts. To fly the Confederate Stars and Bars (or even the battle flag) publicly on a staff outside that museum would have been wholly appropriate, and would still be more appropriate than the flag's new home which, while no longer on the dome, is still on the State House grounds.

A catch phrase for good-ole-boys who support the Confederate flag is "Heritage, Not Hate." It is clear that heritage is not the primary reason for flying that flag, or else the royal banners of the French and the Spanish empires would fly alongside it, as at one time they both lay claim to what eventually became South Carolina. Imagine how the world would react if the swastika banner were once again flown over the Reichstag in Berlin, with its supporters defending it using the phrase "Heritage, Not Hate."

History is one thing, and it is not wrong to portray it just so long as it is understood that the context is historical. But to publicly and blatently don the mantle of a defeated ideology at the expense of those who suffered under it (in the case of SC, nearly a third of the population) is indefensible as mere tribute to "heritage."
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Good point, They "don't hate", but choose to display a battle flag.
Ah huh.

This is just a guess, but I have often thought that this particular Confederate battle flag gained prominence by being used so often in Hollywood movies. I remember seeing it a lot in the 50's and 60's. Hmm...I was quite young at the time. ;)
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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. As a battle trophy
The CSA was an enemy nation that killed thousands of US troops for an evil cause. Their flags deserve only to be displayed as battle trophies, like Imperial Japanese flags captured during WWII.

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NinetySix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I can understand why you might think that.
Certainly what the Confederacy represented was reprehensible: States' Rights was less a matter of preserving liberty than of maintaining privilege. Nevertheless, if you go to Russia tomorrow, there will be places where the flag of the former Soviet Union will be on display as a historical artifact. Hell, Lenin's mummified body was until recently (and for all I know, still is) on public display. In addition, the flags of pre-revolutionary France, South VietNam, Zaire, Yugoslavia, the Union of South Africa, numerous incarnations of the Afghan flag, and many others are preserved and displayed for historical purposes. They all have their proper place: as props to better teach posterity the lessons of history.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's MY answer
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Anita Garcia Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Beautiful flags and beautiful sentiments!
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. What's the difference
Between this:




And this?:

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Anita Garcia Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. You just gave me my first confederate flag viewing of the day
However, I like your post!
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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. No difference-
They are both examples of Constitutionally protected free speech.

You have the same right to publish them as the rednecks and neo-Nazis.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. They are also both expressions of hatred, bigotry & ignorance.
And represent blind, unreasoning, murderous violence committed by one group of humans against another.
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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I agree with you 100%.
But, part of what makes America a great place to live is our Constitutional rights, including the freedom of speech.

If someone uses that freedom to show off a swastika or Confederate flag, or signs like Phred Phelps uses in his protests, it tells me something about him. I know that he and I are on opposite sides of a great divide. I disagree vehemently with his message, but will defend his right to display it.


The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. I saw the most offensive Confederate bumper sticker yet ..
Yesterday, in Travelers Rest, SC. It was on the back window of a very large SUV. Next to the Confederate flag the sticker read: FIGHTING TERRORISM SINCE 1861.

Another revisionist "historian."

:puke:
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. And then there was ol' William Tecumseh Sherman.

It was the most monstrous barbarity of the barbarous march.Whitelaw Reid, 1868

They say that history is written by the victors. This is one small, yet significant, piece of Civil War history that the victors would have preferred not to have been told. Many historians mention it only briefly and sometimes not accurately. In his epic film documentary, The Civil War, Ken Burns does not mention it at all. It is not a story of glorious battles and thousands of dead and wounded on bloody fields of valor. It is the story of how in times of war horrendous and militarily-unjustified things can happen to defenseless civilians and private property.

February 17, 1865, is singularly the most important day in the history of South Carolina and Columbia, the states capital. On this day everything changed for the Palmetto State. Politically, economically, sociallynothing would ever be the same. It was the day the wealthy became poor and a beautiful city was destroyed. It was the real emancipation day for slaves in a powerful Southern state so closely associated with that now universally repudiated institution. No one was spared hardship and lossneither the rich, the free blacks, nor the slaves.

Accusations of responsibility were made and denied immediately after this dreadful day. A government hearing was held. However, the first hand accounts of soldiers and civilians, who were part of this tragedy, paint a clear picture of events and motivations unfettered by historical interpretation and explanations. This is the true story of the most monstrous barbarity of the barbarous march
http://www.shermansrevenge.com/
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Splatter this sticker over it while he's not looking.
Preferrably one with a mighty nasty adhesive:

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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
18. So, what will your $30 DO about Confederate Battle Flags?
Edited on Sat Mar-11-06 10:50 AM by PaganPreacher
You appear to be offended by the private display of the Confederate Battle Flag. What will your $30 membership do to eliminate the private display of Confederate Battle Flags, which is Constitutionally protected free speech?
:think:
Let me help:
Nothing

Rednecks have the right to diplay the Confederate Battle Flag, and you have the right to turn away from it. They can't force you to look, and you can't force them to take the flag down.

That pesky ol' First Amendment is a real be-yotch, ain't it?
:eyes:

The Pagan Preacher
I believe in the entire Constitution
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. It will help
It will help; because the longer NAACP exists, the more educated we become as a society, so that eventually, one might be described by his place of birth (I'm a Californian" for example)rather than his skin tone, and without argument we will see exactly why that relic from the Civil War has no place being displayed today, privately or publicly.

The first ammendment will have nothing to do with that.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
23. Great post! Thanks.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. I've noticed that no one has bothered to mention that.......
.....in the last week no one has brought up the issue of the Confederate Flag. So either needs a hobby or maybe even a second or third hobby or someone thinks a good old fashioned flame war would be a lot of fun. :spank: :sarcasm:
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Racism is a fact of life in the South. This is always a topic to discuss.
Edited on Sat Mar-11-06 04:17 PM by McCamy Taylor
I have lived in the South all my life (the urban South, thankfully, the big cities like Houston, Atlanta) and I can tell you that the South is still FILTHY with racism and sexism and all other kinds of nasty -isms. Hell, did anyone else catch the anti-Catholicism in Florida when the Dominoes guy was silly enough to build his Catholic Mecca down there? I could have told him that Ave Maria would not be welcome in the Bible Belt. King James only is the standard down here.

Confederate flags are flown as a deliberate insult, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. When the anti-hero of "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" hung out his Nazi flag, he knew what he was doing, and it must have really struck home with the locals.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. OK but--the WHOLE country, from sea to shining sea
is full of racism, sexism and nastyism. Full as a backed-up septic tank.

Nobody I know defends the confederate flag. It has been taken over as a symbol of hate and that's it. There's no resurrecting it. But what IS harmful is promoting the idea that the South is THE racist, sexist, nastiest part of the country. This is usually the view of Northern urbanites who haven't looked around in their own state very far, much less anywhere else. It's this arrogance and provincial attitude that's the problem.

Intersting how people who think they are speaking out against prejudice ILLUSTRATE how prejudice works.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Racism is a fact of life in the UNITED STATES
Edited on Sat Mar-11-06 09:24 PM by Nevernose
I grew up in the South. It's not that the South isn't as bad as it used to be, it's just that it's turned into the North. To paraphrase Malcolm X: At least I can respect the racists of the South, because they at least have the guts to be racist to your face. It's the racists in the North I hate, because they preach equality and practice racism.

I've lived or gotten to know cities all over the US, and in every one of them you can find filthy racists. You can go to North Dakota, which still has relatively few blacks, Asians, or hispanics, and people will find a way to talk smack about American Indians. Sometimes I feel like all this country knows is hate.

Note that this post, while in a way is sticking up for the South, isn't so much to defend the South as to disparage racism, fear, and ignorance, scourges prevalent across the nation.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
27. I'm a southerner and I find it offensive. I mean who wants to be...
reminded of your region's inhumanity and stupidity?
I've always called it "the loser rag"
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-12-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. I see it as just a "rag".
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-12-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
38. This thread will be "entertaining".
I'm moving on.
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