Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

It's way past time....but it's all starting to unravel....BIG STUFF

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:34 AM
Original message
It's way past time....but it's all starting to unravel....BIG STUFF
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 08:54 AM by KoKo01
It's coming....slowly, but surely and we might be getting to the "tipping point"...don't want to be too optimistic that we will know when the "tipping point" is...we probably won't see it until it's past:

CHECK THIS OUT for what I'm talking about.....
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/007855.php
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. What next? It's good to learn what these secrecy-loving goons
are up to - but OMG, I am exhausted. Everytime I get online I think, what will it be this time?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Demanding Impeachment would push it over the edge
"Our side" has been furious for a long time. The new thing is that a growing number of folks on the "other side" are getting VERY angry, and their anger is finding a focus: George W. Bush.

If Democratic members of Congress started demanding Impeachment, loud and clear, right now, they would be giving voice to that anger.

Republicans tend to be impatient people who, when faced with a problem, just look for someone to blame. If Dems were accusing Bush of his crimes in no uncertain terms, and demanding impeachment, they'd be giving pissed off Republicans their scapegoat (It's all Bush fault. He's ruining the party. Let's Get 'Em!)

If the Dems started demanding REAL accountability (i.e., accuse/impeach and demand punishment/removal from office), they would be creating a stark contrast: Dems, demonstrating strength and conviction vs. rubber stamp Repubs.

The most serious problem Democrats face is the perception that they are weak. This perception is rooted in the reticence that centrists seem to have when it comes to accusation and punishment. (Something the right clearly revels in.) Instead of going after wrong-doers, Democratic leaders seek to "make sure it doesn't happen again" (and the Republicans chuckle, "Gee, for a minute there, I though they were actually going to do something.")

If our "leaders" finally got in front of our fight for impeachment, I would not be surprised to see them garner an additional 5-7% of the white male vote overnight, simply for showing the fortitude that demographic respects.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. So, what you're saying is that it is about time they use some
of that "dry powder." I hate to agree with the Repugs, but the Dems are weak. They'll keep their powder dry and lose what should be a sure-thing election.

:mad:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. They gotten a taste of "Bottom-Up" politics -- we need to give them . .
. . .another big helping on Impeachment.

As many pointed out yesterday, it was the pressure of The People that "gave Republicans the nerve" to buck Bush.

I think the Dems need some bucking up -- up close and personal -- in face to face meetings with ordinary people who can clue them in to what's happening outside the beltway (and the disdain with which they are viewed when they "keep their powder dry").

Their social world (i.e., immersion in Republican beltway propanda) has trained them to fear the mythical backlash beast. Since it IS a myth, it shouldn't actually take much input from the outside to put the myth to rest with a does of reality
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moody Bluz Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Inspite of the anger, I do not see impeachment happening.
People are angry at *, but will they go for impeachment? I think not and fear that what ever strides we may be making could be lost by overreaching for impeachment and then having it fall through. When it does fall through the Republicans will point to it list it among all of the other "This is it! Bush is toast!" items that have failed us in the past.

I would love for us to win it all and be completely rid of * and all the rest, but the way things are going, right now I would be happy to just win something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. No. The big bad backlash beast is a myth. And no principled leader actuall
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 01:39 PM by pat_k
. . .actually has a choice.

The politics of it are completely irrelevant. Outcome, win or lose, is completely irrelevant.

You cannot be aware of Bush and Cheney's crimes and do anything but demand impeachment. And it is that kind of principled strength that Americans respect.

Refraining from acting when principle demands because they fear some political consequence is why members of the Democratic Party are perceived as WIMPS.

So, principle demands action. Fortunately for them, fighting for impeachment is not just the right thing to do, it is the winning thing to do.

The Democratic members of Congress start demanding impeachment, they get "strength points." Hearings start and they expose the crimes and daily news is full of new revelations about administration wrongs.

The Republicans have a choice, move fast, bring articles of impeachment and remove Bush and Cheney now and they get President Hastert, or wait 'til the Democratic Party takes the House and Senate and get President Pelosi.

If they refuse to go forward before 2006 elections, doesn't matter. If Democratic leaders are out there demanding impeachment, the half of the country that has been appalled by the fascist takeover will be activated in a way never seen before and they'll also pull in angry Republicans (as described in my first reply). Dems win with margins never seen before -- enough to give them the courage to actually do things that 80% Americans have wanted to see for a LONG time (right to health care for all, increased minimum wage so workers actually make a living wage, and on and on).

One way or the other, it would spell the end of the fascist era in American.

(And, even if it didn't, they must act on principle.)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moody Bluz Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Here is what I fear...
I fear overreaching on impeachment. What are the charges that are going to be brought up? Torture? When I have tried to discuss this with conservatives, they always compare Nick Berg getting beheaded with "panties on the head." The American public is not going to be very willing to impeach the President over this and will take his side if it comes to it.

Any Republicans seeing this will turn away from impeachment. We have to go with charges that can't be given the National Security spin or be pointed to have "they were doing much than we were" said about them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Everything is on the table. . .
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 03:07 PM by pat_k
The Republicans that would be turned off are never going to vote for a Democratic candidate anyway, 30-35% of this nation can be completely ignored. They won't come around until our leaders are empowered to actually serve our common interests.

And even if we lost some who would have supported Dems, as I noted, political consequences and fears are irrelevant.

When a leadership team led by a criminal CEO is embezzling, the board does not waste time trying to change this or that company policy. They accuse the criminals of their crimes, boot them out, determine the extent of the damage, and demand punishment.

Offering plans to criminals and beseeching them to be good, or ignoring the crimes, is to be complicit.

In America we are the board. With regard to criminal activities of the Judiciary or Executive, Congress serves as our law enforcer.

As far as charges, everything is on the table, but the quickest would probably be to go with the prima fascia case that Bush and Cheney conspired to violate Title 50 USC Sec. 1809--Unauthorized Surveillance.

There is also more than enough evidence already gathered on the crimes they committed to terrorize and coerce the American people into waging the war they were hell-bent on waging. (For example, "Hoodwinked" by John Prados has more than enough to bring articles and impeach.) They did not "mislead" or "distort the evidence", they TERRORIZED the American people (300 million of us) with the most colossal bomb threat in history (mushroom clouds in 45 minutes). If this is not a high crime, I don't know what is.

Although abuse of power and other high crimes do not require violation of specific US Code, any or all of the following are certainly on the table:

Violation of U.S. Code Title 18, Section 844 paragraph (e) -- Whoever, through the use of the mail, telephone, telegraph, or other instrument of interstate or foreign commerce, or in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, willfully makes any threat, or maliciously conveys false information knowing the same to be false, concerning an attempt or alleged attempt being made, or to be made, to kill, injure, or intimidate any individual or unlawfully to damage or destroy any building, vehicle, or other real or personal property by means of fire or an explosive shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years or fined under this title, or both.

Violations of U.S. Code Title 18, Section 35. Imparting or conveying false information (Bomb Hoax)

Countless acts of negligent homicide, criminal negligence causing bodily harm, and wreckless endangerment of the members of our armed forces.

In their failure to take even minimal steps to prevent the attacks of September 11th, they committed more than 3000 acts of negligent homicide and countless acts of criminal negligence causing bodily harm and wreckless endangerment.

Violations of the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act -- U.S. Code Title 50, Section 1805

Violation of the Title 18 section 2441. War crimes

Violations of U.S. Code Title 18 in the 2000 and 2004 Presidential <s>elections, In particular:
  • Section 241, which makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any citizen in the exercise of a right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States (including the right to vote in an election for President).

  • Section 594, prohibits the intimidation or coercion (e.g., 10-hour poll-tax lines) of voters for the purpose of interfering with the right to vote for a candidate for federal office. (This statute does not require violent intimidation.)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moody Bluz Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. What I am saying is...
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 04:27 PM by Moody Bluz
are those crimes going to resonate enough with Moderates and Conservatives that they will be impeachment worthy?

Like I said, I do not think the torture issue will fly because the Administration can point to atrocities committed by Insurgents and then compare them to "too cold air conditioning" and lack of sleep as torture. Americans are not going to side with the guys we are fighting on this one.

The NSA spying charges? Well, they will say that they are fighting "terra." And too many Americans, who do not know any better and refuse to believe any different will take comfort in this. That * promptly admitted to the domestic spying and publicly says he will continue does not help us either.

The outing of Valerie Plame, and now the Dubai Ports scandal are our best shots. There is no right way to spin these.

You may have a lot of faith in our Senators and Representatives doing the right thing, I don't. The Republicans won't go for it if it looks like the American people start regarding the impeachment as not too big a deal or if they side with the President because "torture is not panties on the head" or because he was Spying domestically to save us from "terra."

Our own Senators had no problem caving on the filibuster of Alito. I expect no more spine from them on this. I have had my optimism blow up in my face too many times.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Failing to accuse in the face of crime is to be complicit.
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 05:22 PM by pat_k
What I'm saying is that our predictions of victory or defeat don't matter. Congress has a duty that is akin to any law enforcement agency. When members of the police see a crime in progress, they have a duty to act. They do not stop to ask whether or not they will successfully catch, convict, and punish the criminals. They do not ask whether the criminals' friends will call them names. They go after the criminals. They seek to bring them to justice.

Congress is no different. Members of Congress take an oath to protect and support the Constitution for the United States of America. Bush, Cheney, and their co-conspirators in the executive branch are violating our laws and the sole moral principle on which our Constitution, and therefore the nation, was founded -- the consent of the governed.

Nothing that members of Congress fear -- being called names, backlash, being voted out, whatever -- compares to the risks we expect members of our armed services to take.

The men and women of our armed services risk life and limb to fulfill their oath to support and defend the Constitution for the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Why should we expect less of members of Congress?

Demanding impeachment is a moral imperative. The only reason I describe the positive consequences is to point out that in this case, doing what they must would also give the Democratic Party an incredible boost. We are at a tipping point and there is a strong case that demanding impeachment will tip us in the right direction.

Bottom line. The consequences, positive or negative are not the reason to act. They must act because it is a moral imperative to do so.

They must act because if they fail to act they become accomplices in the crimes being committed by Bush, Cheney, and their co-conspirators in the executive branch. (And being an accomplice in a wrong is NEVER good politics. We need look no further then their failure to take a stand against Iraq as proof of that.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moody Bluz Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I see what your saying.
I have been too focused on whether or not we can win it. Good point, all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. BTW, that ANY members called for filibuster of the Alito nomination . .
. . .was an enormous victory for us.

Think back. Alito was a "done deal" for weeks. The Democratic members of Congress had thrown in the towel.

Then WE got in their faces. We forced many of them to see the truth -- that doing everything in their power to block Alito's nomination to the court was a moral imperative. Something they all assumed was outside the realm of possibility -- a filibuster -- became possible; and then, for many, it became something they had to do.

Yes. Too many failed us. But we "got" people we were told we would NEVER get (e.g., Feinstein).

The members who voted against cloture are not complicit with the fascists who put Alito on the court. They also created a record that will help us in the future when it comes time to impeach Alito for his advocacy of the Un-American and Un-Constitutional "unitary authoritarian executive."

(Make no mistake; Bush and Cheney are just the beginning. After them, we impeach the felonious five -- yes, even posthumously -- for their treasonous Bush v. Gore edict.)

We have been telling ourselves "we have no power" or "its all about money" or whatever for so long, perhaps it hasn't sunk in that ordinary people are effectively influencing our elected officials.

For too long, we were trapped in a Vicious cycle of inaction=>hopelessness=>helplessness=>inaction, but things have turned around and a Virtuous cycle of action=>hope=>engagement=>action=>hope... is taking hold and gathering power.

The horrors of this administration are motivating ordinary citizens to stand up and act. We are in crisis and people are responding and effectively organizing themselves. The rising tide of citizen action gives me more hope for the future than any elected official or candidate could give me.

I don't tend to be disillusioned with elected officials and candidates because I don't expect them to help us increase our power and influence with them. For that, I look to my fellow citizens.

As we connect with each other to lobby for Impeachment or reject elections that are incapable of giving us confidence in the results, I am seeing powerful associations coming together that will endure beyond any specific campaign.

When you are feeling discouraged, try to remind yourself that the numbers can only go one way. When people learn the truth about the fascists and the theft of the 2000 and 2004 electons they do not unlearn it. Our numbers are growing every day.

Everyone said we would never get a Senator to stand up and object to the Ohio electors on January 6th. Our efforts to lobby members of the Senate were mocked, even by staffers in the House that were working to expose what had happened in Ohio. Citizen lobbyists didnt let the chorus of negativity stop them. They took up the fight. Mainstream folks didn't jump on board until it was clear that the effort itself was energizing people in a way they might well capitalize on.

And guess what? We got a Senator.

Some don't realize how monumental that victory was. In 2001, every member of the Senate was complicit with the theft of the 2000 election -- they were all motivated maintain the national denial.

Now, we have a member of the Senate -- Barbara Boxer -- who was NOT complicit in the theft of the 2004 election. She also admitted that she failed us on Jan 6th, 2001 and thus shed the bonds of complicity with the theft of the 2000 election. As the truth becomes inescapable (a third election worker in Ohio was indicted today for corrupting the recount) she will have no qualms about seeing to it the public hears the truth.

Our immediate goals are clear: Impeach Bush and Cheney and demand elections that give us confidence in the results. Actions large and small will make these goals a reality. As we move forward, we need to remember that, however our elected officials fail or anger us, we can't let it just be about them. Ultimately, it is about figuring out how to use our power to see that our will is done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agree a little!
It's way past the tipping point IMHO, I've been trying to get folks to sign up at CCR on impeachment at the link below.

The tipping point we talk about, will only last as long as nothing happens to tip it back the other direction. I'm worried that as soon as something big happens like another terrorist attack or the Bird flu, comes along this yahoo country will rally around this president again.

This president has already committed impeachable offenses, we need to come together as a country and demand congressional hearing to start the ball rolling toward impeachment.

Please sign the petition below, and perhaps if enough of us sign this petition we'll get the attention of powers to be. Remember the country just came together to fight this Dubai port deal and someone listened, and took action.


http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/c...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Many, many, many impeachable offenses, Plus, treason to boot!
What was the punishment for treason in war time again? Perhaps his lawyers can advise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Sentence for treason is death under Uniform Code of Military Justice
Edited on Fri Mar-10-06 12:24 PM by pat_k
And, actually, George W. Bush deserted in a time of war in 1972, so he was already subject to a sentence of death.

http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. We passed the tipping point last August during Katrina
This is the point where we nail down the Republican Party and their support for the most incompetent President in American history. This guy has an approval rating of 34% and it might drop even further.

Bush's Presidency is toast. He has no 'political capital.' The Rethugs are running away from him in droves. We need to tie as many Rethugs candidates for Congress to Bush as possible. Bush and his Party are starting to drown in their own incompetence, let's throw them more anvils.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. Mitch Wade..,a key to the door of Secrets on Spy Ops from TPM.... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think you are right
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Kick.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 18th 2014, 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC