Why Clark can't win

[JNelson6563]

I see a lot of problems with a Clark candidacy.

Clark has never governed.
Clark has never been elected to office.
Clark has Pentagon baggage that I suspect the reich-wing is waiting to break out if he won the nom.

Those are just a few items of concern to me. Plus I have seen some contradictory statements from him regarding current misAdminsitration members that, while a lengthy explanation to me from Clark supporters are enough to quell my doubts, these statements would make powerful ammo against him in a GE. I wonder if they have Clark on tape at dinners/fundraisers raising a glass to Team Bush? Wouldn't that make for an interesting commercial? Not to mention the contention remaining in political discourse across this country on the whole Kosovo thing.

Seems to me there are a lot of concerns for me if we are faced with a Clark candidacy in the GE. This is much to counter. Not to mention the tone of the election. While Clark mostly avoiding talk of other candidates (and I don't begrudge him his occassional digs, it's politics) it's going to take some serious hard-ball playing passion to beat the Rove propaganda machine. I haven't seen a fire in him that convinces me he's the guy to run this race with this particular opponent.

Just my take. Anyone got ideas on how to address these concerns?

Julie

[fishguy]

1. You must be a Dean supporter

Are you saying a four star general can't play hard ball and a governor from one of the smallest states in the US can?
please.

[DFLforever]

11. Military credentials are no substitute for skill and experience

in politics and political campaigning.

Clark's lack of experience in political battle is really a concern of mine, too...that, plus he's been straddled with Clinton re-treaders whose tendency will be to fight again the last war( election).

[fishguy]

23. I guess that did not hurt Grant or Eisenhower

I guess Dean is in the same league as Calvin Coolidge.

[drfemoe]

94. Are you

comparing Kosovo to France?

Kosovo: http://www.kosovo.com/default2.html ** WARNING - graphic images **

France: http://www.franceguide.com/home.asp?z1=oWQG6rcDC8vjncjhUDy41hFm

I don't think he was President of Columbia University before he commanded NATO, was he?

Why does the General's website biography not cover the years between 2000 and 2003? Is it because everyone knows during that time he was a defense lobbyist, war commentator, investment banker and republican fund-raiser?

[Name removed]

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[drfemoe]

143. *

self delete

[Scott Lee]

98. Clark is no Grant or Eisenhower.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

146. Yes he has a much higher IQ than either of those two, won HIS war

with zero combat deaths and isn't an alcoholic (like Grant was).

[JVS]

147. His war was against a feeble enemy.

[BootinUp]

148. There were diplomatic contraints

It wasn't like he could unleash hell's fury. This was a different situation and it reveals other skills that Clark has.

[JVS]

149. I am tired of people trying to make Kosovo equivalent to WW2 and...

the Civil war. It just is not equivalent. It is an insult to the veterans of WWII and the Civil War to suggest that they were even close on an order of magnitude. People who build the Kosovo operation in order to glorify Clark are just as dishonest and pathetic as those who try to act like the Grenada invasion made Reagan some kind of glorious war time hero.

[BootinUp]

150. Well, just because

they compare him to those Generals I am not sure they are trying to do what you perceive. Perhaps they make the comparisons based on his ability to excel in the service as much as he did, and their hope he can excel in politics too.

I think this debate gets a little too emotional on all sides (we're human) :)

[drfemoe]

158. Won his War?

Maybe you didn't see this link. The war isn't 'won'.

http://www.kosovo.com/default2.html ** WARNING - graphic images of human suffering **

Kosovo isn't a victory.
But don't look for the headlines from corporate media.

Maybe this is how Clark intends to 'win the war on terror'?? No thanks.

[PsN2Wind]

24. An E-1

on his second day of boot-camp knows there is politics in the military. And anyone with any time in the service knows that it requires a pretty damn shrewd politician to make Flag Rank. At the level he achieved, there is a hell of a lot more politcking involved in advancement than military genius.
Isn't it time we stopped trying to advance the candidates we support by tearing down the others. If you want to advocate for Dean or another candidate fine. But if we continue to cut each other up before the fight, the chances are whomever gets the nomination is going to end up, after the election, to put it less than delicately. out picking shit with the chickens.

[drfemoe]

97. no

fierce battle makes one stronger. If you take a look at Dean's campaign, you will see an example of that.

The truth is, I'd take Lieberman over Clark. At least he has some political experience. And we know where he stands on the issues. Regardless of how many policy papers his site has published, I don't believe Clark knows what he advocates.

[PsN2Wind]

103. I guess if "fierce battle makes one stronger"

then I'll go for Clark. He was, after all, fiercely battling in the mud and stink of VietNam while Dean was challenging the slopes of Aspen. Methinks VietNam was significantly more fierce.

[drfemoe]

104. go for anyone you like

your original post called for a stop to tearing down candidates.

But if skiing vs. viet nam is your litmus, you may be overlooking the fact that running for president doesn't require killing human beings.

[Name removed]

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[DFLforever]

45. Eisenhower and Grant

Eisenhower: That was a true 'draft'movement. And Eisenhower was able to win primaries - hell, he won my state Minnesota as a write-in candidate!

Grant: we all know what happened when that very capable general became president: he oversaw (or, over-looked) the most corrupt administration in US history up until BushII.

[JVS]

46. Not to mention that those two were in charge of wars we could have lost

I never feared that Milosevic could conquer us.

[mike from ri]

112. Clark will win primaries

and having done so will be more politically grounded than grant or eisenhower who had the presidency thrust on them.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. O.K. make him VP to Kerry and we'll take 30 states.

and after 8 years under President Kerry Clark'll be ready to take over in 2012.

[5thGenDemocrat]

6. I could live with that

I'd say Clark/Kerry, myself, but Kerry's senatorial experience brings domestic policy experience to the table and even strengthens our ticket against the "weak on defense" smear the Repugs will use on Dean.
John
Plus, Clark/Kerry (or Kerry/Clark) allows us to throw Dopey's draft-dodging and AWOL right back at him and do it without saying a word (though I, for one, promise to bring it up every chance I get).

[JVS]

8. That seems most unlikely in light of the fact that Kerry is polling less..

than Sharpton.

Clark stole Kerry's thunder by getting into this campaign.

Sharpton/Kucinich is more likely than Kerry/Clark.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Kerry is polling less than Sharpton in one national poll

8.4 million bucks will take care of that.

[JVS]

20. Point is that Kerry is done

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. Really? Did Iowa and NH vote already?

must have missed that....

[JVS]

36. Ok, we'll wait and see. But I'll bet you that Kerry won't get nominated!

[edzontar]

75. Kerry would have done better if he had opposed the IWR.

He lost me on that one, and I am part of his "natural" constituency: a Boston-born, Vietnam era liberal "leftist" who remembers Kerry's brave stance against the Vietnam war.

He pushed away more than a few of his potential supporters with that decision---and I fear he shall live to regret it, for many reasons.

[RetroLounge]

81. "8.4 million bucks will take care of that"

and Kerry will then have to deal with a homeless problem:

His own.

[JVS]

84. Ah, I was wondering what the hell that had meant

[Gman]

38. I can live with that

sounds good to me. Long as it ain't Dean.

[Name removed]

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[PsN2Wind]

3. Excuse me

are you saying you sit in with groups and debate the "Kosovo thing"? There are a number of things more current to discuss and of tremendous more importance.

[JNelson6563]

15. haha No, I don't "sit in groups"

that discuss Kosovo. It's been mentioned in passing many times though when I have discussion with folks on the right in Real Life. Of course in most discussions it's been as a dig against Clinton as they took place before Clark was in the race.

Example reich-wing talking point: "They have never found mass graves to prove genocide was occuring."

Now I have seen testimony about the genocide etc., I still don't feel I knwo enough about the whole thing to be for or against it but I am certain of one thing, unlike Bush, Clinton didn't declare that war for profit.

If there is "mass-grave" evidence, I'd love to know about it because the entire right is convinced there is no evidence that was a justified war and will hammer home repeatedly if there were a Clark candidacy. I'd like to have that evidence to counter such claims in discussion.

And to those flip replies here in this thread about how could a four star General possibly not win a WH run, I don't think everyone automatically bends the knee at a four star General. I for one do not. That fact alone does not make me swoon. I am hoping for more substative things we could use in a GE. Surely all can agree we need to get our strategy in place for deflecting attacks from the right against whoever might win the nom.

Julie

[JVS]

4. Yup, Clark can't win!

[MIMStigator]

5. We won't know Dean's baggage until hes forced to stop hiding records

then it will be too late.

[jumptheshadow]

58. That is part of Dean's baggage

He's hiding records and has engineered a rather duplicitous way to get a friend to agree to keep them hidden.

Unfortunately, the Republicans can get away with that but our candidates can't.

I'm also waiting for Dean to start criticizing Bush on executive privilege and Cheney on secret energy meetings.

I'm waiting but I'm not holding my breath.

[RetroLounge]

83. Poop

but I repeat myself...

[Name removed]

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[Donna Zen]

137. Bay Buchanan was talking about the videos

Yeah, sure Bay is a monster, but anyone who is paying attention sees the baggage that Dean is leaving along the campaign trail. With Dean getting the maximum media attention in an effort by the corporations to raise his name recognition, all of the things he says make little difference. Oh sure, occassionaly they let a Lieberman attack slip out, but basically they have silenced Dean's oppostion. If it Dean v Bush all bets are off.

Dean has far more baggage than Clark will ever have. What? He's not a politician? Oh...that should scare the American public!

[edzontar]

7. You forgot the best reason:

Clark will be defeated by Dean in the primaries.

[Cry Freedom]

25. You just had to say that, didn't you?

Because, then Dean will be defeated by whistle-ass in the (s)election. :cry:

[edzontar]

30. Dean will win the primaries AND the general...

And the defeatists on this board shall be proven wrong.

So it is written, so it shall be done.

[JVS]

33. Right on!

[Name removed]

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[Demobrat]

9. All Rove would have to do in CA

(heck, or Clark's Dem opponents for that matter) is run an ad showing Clark's famous "Let the software jobs go to India" comment at the debate. Lots and lots of unemployed software engineers around here would not take kindly to that remark.

[madrchsod]

16. you know i feel sorry for those

guys and gals who lost their jobs. my fellow steelworking brothers and sisters started losing our jobs starting in the late 70`s and it hasn`t stopped since. in fact we were told -join the revolution- go to school,go hi tech, and great jobs for the future. we knew it was bullshit so we took jobs that paid alot less than what we made-(in 1980 i made 10+ an hour,in 2001 i made 12+)..and their wasn`t a democrat or republican that gave a shit about us and voted to send all the rest of our decent paying jobs from our country. so high tech people get your shit together and find a new job cause because-"they ain`t never com`n back ,in my hometown"

[Demobrat]

21. The sad part is

a lot of those people invested a lot of time and money into their high tech careers. BS (Bachelor of Science, not BullShit, although I'm not sure there's much difference) degrees in engineering don't come cheap. Lots are still paying off the loans. And here's a guy who wants to be president airily writing them off with a casual "we'll do something else". Yeah. Thanks. And in the meantime who, exactly, makes the mortgage payment? And pays for retraining for a new career?

[dfong63]

31. and what Clark forgets is,

if we just "let them do the software in India", what makes Clark think India (or Taiwan, Pakistan, China, etc) won't be able to steal the "something else" jobs he envisions for the US?

i for one don't want a general whose strategy is "surrender when the going gets tough".

[mike from ri]

114. Clark, not dean, knows to "take care of our own"

. . . that is part of the military tradition, although perhaps unknown on the ski slopes of aspen.

[mikehiggins]

136. The point of Clark's position

is that the government has to take a positive stance in regard to protecting American jobs, rather than allowing and sometimes even encouraging the practice of outsourcing to other nations.

There are undoubtedly a great number of new technologies which can be developed within the United States and copied elsewhere. The trick is to devise strategies that minimize any or most of the incentive to do so.

And a general's strategy is not to surrender when the going gets tough, it is to avoid committing further resources to fighting a battle already lost. I'm sure that a workable strategy to save American jobs would be more than welcome in the Clark camp.

Since this is a matter you appear quite interested in, what are your suggestions?

[cally]

73. Nope

Clark promotes new research and technologies to create jobs. He also has clarified the India remark.

[Demobrat]

106. He promised new technologies huh?

Nice of him to promise what somebody else has to invent and deliver. Any time table on that? Or we just supposed to take it on faith?

[Donna Zen]

139. Are you turning in your keyboard?

We all benefit from the research and inventions of others. Clark's plan is to actually plan fro the future by setting goals. That means that we take the R&D money that is allocated, add to it if necessary and decide as a nation where we want that money to go. Many dollars are currently being given out as corporate wellfare, while emerging technologies go begging. Clark has said that what new technologies need is a push from federal dollars and spending.

You do know that one of Clark's jobs has been putting together funding for emerging technologies. Add to that his interest and understanding of science (his first major...math and physics) and I think it is a more than a promise that we would finally begin moving forward.

[Justice]

169. You Keep Posting

The same comment, and people keep refuting it. You aren't interested in the truth, you are just interested in slamming Clark.

[madrchsod]

10. Clark governed

during the conflict in the Balkans. if he can do that he can govern the USA. some of the things that he did in bringing to justice the butchers of the Balkans are very interesting...clark is a Rhodes scholar unlike any other president but big dog..both heroes of the oppressed people of the balkans. everyone has baggage,it`s how he deals with it that counts...

[JVS]

12. Where were you guys in 2004 when Rhodes scholar Bill Bradley...

was getting the tar knocked out of him?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

13. You said:

"everyone has baggage,it`s how he deals with it that counts..."

Exactly why I know Dean can win. Dean deals with the garbage head on, encouraging his supporters to take action and himself addressing issues promptly and forcefully.

The other candidates have let the debate and campaign be framed by either Bush or Dean. Dean has framed the debates and discussions on his terms, showing he's a true leader and a fighter.

[Cry Freedom]

26. Let me see

How many days did it take him to even acknowledge the 'confederate flag on the pickup truck' might have been a poor choice of words?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

92. And how much did his

polling numbers INCREASE because of it? Lots. I'm sure you would have liked that it hurt Dean, but it only boosted his numbers to be given the chance to explain further what he meant and make his opponents look like jerks for not addressing the actual issue.

[Donna Zen]

14. New lens...different take:

Clark has never governed.

As a designated "head of state" one is left with the feeling that defining "governing" by equating it with an election does not necessarily make it so. Rummy has never been elected, but trying to prove in a general election that he has not governed would take a real stretch, especially considering the havoc the bastard has reigned down.

Clark has never been elected to office.

True, however, this is also a plus to many who will understand that he beholden to no one and not a politician.

Clark has Pentagon baggage that I suspect the reich-wing is waiting to break out if he won the nom.

First, he has plenty of documentation to the contrary by Shelton, Cohen etal. The man may not be your candidate, but I hope you will admit he is nobody's fool. I would imagine that both the video clips and military line up to counter this bs is in the works.

Those are just a few items of concern to me. Plus I have seen some contradictory statements from him regarding current misAdminsitration members that, while a lengthy explanation to me from Clark supporters are enough to quell my doubts, these statements would make powerful ammo against him in a GE. I wonder if they have Clark on tape at dinners/fundraisers raising a glass to Team Bush?

Read the REST of the speech. Secondly, plenty of people want to move away from bush, providing them the leadership to do so would only be a plus. Anyway, those who do not want to have doubts quelled, will be consistently resistent to understanding why this is not an issue in a general election.


Wouldn't that make for an interesting commercial?

What? Making fun of someone for saying something nice about you....


Not to mention the contention remaining in political discourse across this country on the whole Kosovo thing.

I'll take a hit for saving 1.5 million people without losing ONE American life, over no foreign policy cred,. any day. Bring 'em on!


Seems to me there are a lot of concerns for me if we are faced with a Clark candidacy in the GE.

Operative word..."me" not for me.

This is much to counter.

Nope


Not to mention the tone of the election. While Clark mostly avoiding talk of other candidates (and I don't begrudge him his occassional digs, it's politics) it's going to take some serious hard-ball playing passion to beat the Rove propaganda machine. I haven't seen a fire in him that convinces me he's the guy to run this race with this particular opponent.

Clark has "hit" on bush as much as any candidate, and with greater effect than those without the gravitas to do so.


Just my take. Anyone got ideas on how to address these concerns?

Yep and done.

[JNelson6563]

29. If you think that defense

will cut it in the GE I have news for you. Bad news.

It won't.

Rummy has never been elected, but trying to prove in a general election that he has not governed would take a real stretch, especially considering the havoc the bastard has reigned down.

Nonsense. He's never governed either. Never been elected to office. It would not be a stretch of any kind to say as much, it would be a fact.

True, however, this is also a plus to many who will understand that he beholden to no one and not a politician.

I beg to differ. Many rightfully eye the Military Industrial Complex quite warily. Not much of a stretch to identify Clark with that, no matter how inaccurate it might be.

First, he has plenty of documentation to the contrary by Shelton, Cohen etal.

Your claiming to have seen such does little to counter it in the coporate whore media. Sure, Clark's a four star General. They can parade one after another of same on the circuit talking all about Clark. Of course you know these would be hand-picked, ready to smear on command four star Generals.

I'll take a hit for saving 1.5 million people without losing ONE American life, over no foreign policy cred,. any day. Bring 'em on!

While there is no doubt it would be quite delightful to point to the major contrast with that conflict that we lost ZERO Americans, we did kill lots of other people. Have you noticed how "compassionate" Pubs can be one minute but not the next? Since Bush did Iraq they are in a compassionate frenzie for the liberation of Iraq. They give no thought to the innocent Iraqi deaths. They (so far) find the US deaths tolerable. Kosovo is different. That was a Clinton war for one thing. Now these deaths of civilians are to be greatly lamented. "All for nothing" is going to be their mantra while wailing and sobbing and biblically beating their breasts no doubt.

Read the REST of the speech. Secondly, plenty of people want to move away from bush, providing them the leadership to do so would only be a plus. Anyway, those who do not want to have doubts quelled, will be consistently resistent to understanding why this is not an issue in a general election.

Ok, so if the Pubs show a commercial of Clark praising Team Bush with the voice over talking about his change of heart and questioning his motives we can run a counter-commercial declaring they are taking things out of context and they need to "read the rest of the speech". I must admit I do not feel very confident about that strategy.

Julie

[KittyWampus]

90. You're Wrong About Rumsfeld- He Was Elected To Congress In 1962

Where he served 4 terms til 1969 when he resigned to join the Nixon administration as an assistant to the president and director of the Office Of Economic Opportunity.

While Johnson was in office Rumsfeld spoke out against the corruption of contracts going to Brown & Root for construction in Viet Nam... He being a Republican and Johnson being a Democrat.

Johnson (a Texan) was good buddies with the folks at Brown & Root (from Texas).

Ironic, isn't it???

:)

[JNelson6563]

95. you're right Rummy has a stronger record than Clark

when it comes to elective history.

So it can be said of Clark but not Rummy that he's never held elective office.

Julie

[KittyWampus]

105. But Then Clark Has Pointed A Finger Directly At The PNAC Crowd

and pretty well critiqued them and their plans.

He's also proposed cutting the Pentagon Budget.

Something Dean would be unable to do. And the only way America will be able to change course is reining in the MIC.

So, since the only thing that Clark hasn't done til now is run a campaign for office... and since he's already proven very good at doing just that...

what's your point?

[JNelson6563]

151. Oh yes, just hammered them!

But the operation in Iraq will also serve as a launching pad for further diplomatic overtures, pressures and even military actions against others in the region who have supported terrorism and garnered weapons of mass destruction. Don’t look for stability as a Western goal. Governments in Syria and Iran will be put on notice — indeed, may have been already — that they are “next” if they fail to comply with Washington’s concerns.

And there will be more jostling over the substance and timing of new peace initiatives for Israel and the Palestinians. Whatever the brief prewar announcement about the “road map”, this issue is far from settled in Washington, and is unlikely to achieve any real momentum until the threats to Israel’s northern borders are resolved. And that is an added pressure to lean on Bashir Assad and the ayatollahs in Iran.

As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt. And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe. Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0917-14.htm

Brutal. Really left 'em bleedin' on the floor there.

I'm sorry, your point was...? :toast:

Julie

[BootinUp]

152. Let's show the next 2 paragraphs too

the end of the article from your link:

Is this victory? Certainly the soldiers and generals can claim success. And surely, for the Iraqis there is a new-found sense of freedom. But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven’t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed.

Let’s have those parades on the Mall and down Constitution Avenue — but don’t demobilize yet. There’s a lot yet to be done, and not only by the diplomats.

This was written right after the fall of Baghdad, and I'm thinking 90% of Americans could understand and feel this pride in the swiftness of the operation. And then at the end of the article he reminds everyone it ain't over and it hasn't been justified based on the reasons stated for going in the first place.

[JNelson6563]

154. I hope you realize I could not

post more than I did because of copyright rules. Besides, even the most hard-core PNACers realize our work in that region has just begun. As General Clark said Iraq was a launching pad" for the rest of the plan. ;-)

Julie

[BootinUp]

155. I hope my post doesn't violate the rules...

But I think I made my point, you're taking the whole meaning of the article, which was:

The easy part is over and now we have an unfinished unjustified mess.

and lopping it off.

cheers

[OKNancy]

18. Don't vote for him

problem solved

[Zorra]

19. I think Clark can win, but

I share your concerns about the risks of hidden baggage that may pulled out just prior to the GE, but I do not believe he would run for president if he had any secrets which would end up destroying the Democratic party. Hopefully there are none. I would personally prefer for a long time Dem legislator to get the nomination also.

I am afraid that a large number of liberals are going to feel that Gen. Clark has too conservative of a background to feel comfortable with voting for him, and do not see Green party voters supporting him like they would someone like Dennis Kucinich. Fortunately, however, liberals would never vote for b*$h like many centrist "Reagan Democrat swing voters" may if they feel that the Democratic presidential nominee is too liberal. Most liberals, like myself, would probably grudgingly wind up voting for Clark if he were nominated because there is really no sane alternative to a Democrat this time around.

[BigBigBear]

47. My wife

is a hardcore Democrat. Lawyer, feminist, liberal - she and her family escaped Czechslovakia in 1967.

She has expressed to me her concerns about a military guy representing her and her party. But she also agrees that Bush and Rove will be prancing about like little Napoleons next August, telling NYC how their decisive action brought 9/11 payback justice to them, etc.

Clark's the only one with the stature to call them liars and phonies. She knows that. She wants Bush gone in the worst way - she'd naturally lean toward a Northeastern progressive, but understands that this is wrong time for one.

I wouldn't say she's a fully engaged Clark supporter, but she's getting there.

[mike from ri]

115. best to you and your wife

and she will be surprised to learn what a good progressive clrk is.

[neuvocat]

22. Here's a thread that was born to be hidden.

There's so many like it out here. Everyday.

[dfong63]

28. thanks for the kick

[edzontar]

32. I think not..it actually reads like a satire of one of the dozen or so

"Dean can't win threads" that appear every hour, on the hour, in this forum.

One thing is certain:

Dean will win, after defeating Clark.

It is inevitable, and I know this because I have read it in the stars.

[JVS]

35. Jebus appeared to me in a turkey-induced hallucination and told me...

Howard Dean will be president until 2025

[edzontar]

39. I do not know this strange new god, Jebus....

But your vision is correct.

The victory of Dean is preordained.

There is no need for these primaries.

No need for an election.

We should proclaim him our president now.

[JVS]

40. Jebus is the answer!

[edzontar]

42. Yes my visionary friend, but what is the question?

[JVS]

43. What would Jebus be?

And Jebus would be Jebus. So you see that this spiritual system works. Please send $49.95 for continued redemption and mercy.

[edzontar]

49. I still need to know what the QUESTION is!!!

This is just too Zen for me!!

I operate from facts. Cosmic facts.

Like inevitable and already determined victory of howard Dean/

[JVS]

57. Ok cosmic factmonger (term of endearment, not insult), it works like this

Whenever you have a problem ask yourself "Who would Jebus be?"

The answer is Jebus.

From this you can realize that you must be true to yourself.

More details can be found at www.mum.edu


Ignore the failure on the right

[edzontar]

63. AHA!!! So this really is a Zen construct!!!!!

I sure am glad that Jebus is on our side, supporting Dr. Dean's inevitable victory over Clark.

Happy Holidays, BTW!!!!

[JVS]

64. Same to you! Make Merry and enjoy the last days of a long year!

:toast:

[janx]

160. I read it in the stars also.

.

[dfong63]

27. it's premature to say that Clark "cannot" win, but

i think it's too much of a gamble. Clark is completely untested in electoral politics. Clark is like a straight-A student who expects to be hired fresh out of high school to be the CEO of a multinational company. facile remarks like, "let them do the software in India" show just how green Clark is.

Anyone got ideas on how to address these concerns?

vote for Dean.

[xrepub]

55. Whats going on here?

Why are we posting these posts. Presumably, we're all Democrats here. As any sentient being knows, the top priority in the US is to get the shrub out of the White House. Second priority is to get the best man possible in.

Most of the posts I see here are:
Ya Ya my guy is better than yours.
Ya Ya my guy is ahead in the polls.
Your guy is a doo doo head.

This is all too important for us to be indulging ourselves in this nonsense.

Our economy is in the toilet and getting worse
Our standing in the world is in the toilet and getting worse
The freedoms we enjoy are disappearing every day
The environment condition is in the toilet and getting worse

If bush is reelected we can expect:
Serious and possibly unrepairable damage to the economy
Serious and possibly unrepairable damage to our freedoms
Serious and possibly unrepairable damage to our environment
Serious and possibly unrepairable damage to our alliances

I support Clark because:
I think, and the polls give evidence, that he runs best against bush
I think, and his record indicates, he will make a good president

If you agree join us, and help make him the next pres
If you disagree, select and get to work for your guy

Once we have selected a candidate for the GE, I will work hard to see that he wins. I hope you all will do the same.

THIS IS TOO IMPORTANT TO LET GO OF.

[edzontar]

67. These threads are, indeed, ridiculous....

And I have treated them appropriately.

Be not concerned. A new year approahes!!!!

Have a happy holiday, my friend.

[RetroLounge]

85. I assume you are new here?

so welcome to DU, grab a cup of coffee, put on your asbestos suit and tinfoil hat, and prepare to witness the Democratic circular firing squad, also know as the Primary-Circle-Jerk, as we beat each other over the head with worthless tripe, lies, innuendo, and an occasional inspiring piece of truth.

It's politics, in a small forum, in a small corner of Al Gore's internet.

But thanks for the ABB comment. I agree with that 100%, and if Clark wins, he has my full support...

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

41. No, my friend, it is your man who shall lose, and lose badly...

Dean is the anointed slayer of the illegitimate Bush-thing.

He shall smite him, and woe to any who dare to stand in his way.

[JVS]

44. Smite the unbeliever!

It is the will of Jebus!

[edzontar]

51. To every generation, a slayer is born....

And that slayer, my friends, is Dr. Howard Dean.

It is...his destiny....

[Gman]

54. The good news

is that on election night in November, we won't be up very late watching the returns. Bush will have it wrapped up by 9 p.m. EST. Won't be up till almost dawn like in 2000. Thank you, Dr. Dean.

[edzontar]

65. You are wrong, sir. Bush shall be brought low....

And your defeatist defeat-mongering shall only defeat you in the end.

Happy Xmas.

[shivaji]

48. Latest ABC/Wash Post poll: DEAN @ 31%,,,,, CLARK @ 7%

Above numbers are from national poll ending 12/21.

Clark is fading fast, Dean's momentum is rising, just as I had predicted months ago.

The single biggest problem with Clark is, all kkk Rove has to do is show a commercial with video's of Clark exhorting how good Bush's policies are. That will completely confuse our base. There is nothing more powerful than visual images. No amount of explanation by Clark campaign can neutralize that.

There are no such video's of Dean. And actually, Dean has governed Vermont much closer to the center, and that will be an effective tool to draw in voters from center.

[JVS]

50. Excellent!

[edzontar]

53. MORE proof of Dean's unstoppable victory...

You shall all be assimilated.

Resistance is futile!!!!

NYHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[Bread and Circus]

79. The WaPo poll was a push poll.

[Scott Lee]

100. Any poll that reflects badly on Clark is a "push poll"

to his weary and deflating supporters. Awww.

[amazona]

52. clark can win

He has tons of experience in diplomacy and foreign policy. Tons of experience working with and managing people. Lack of experience is going to look pretty weak if that's all they have against him.

Everybody has baggage, and if they don't, then the wingnuts will invent some -- Vince and Monica anyone? So don't worry about baggage, it's a given.

I see lots of ways for Clark to win. He doesn't have to dis the other candidates to win. He has lots of fire to criticize those who need criticizing. When it comes to fire, enjoy his remarks about Milosevic and *. He is not afraid to speak out but maybe the media is afraid to report.

I believe a Clark/Breaux ticket would win easily if all votes were fairly counted. Many other combinations look like winners to me as well.

[dolstein]

56. You should retitle this post "Why I Won't Vote for Clark"

You need to be careful about projecting your own feelings onto the electorate at large.

I don't think it would be an exagerration to state that Wes Clark's experience as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO leaves him far better prepared to assume the responsibilities of the presidency of the United States than George Bush was in 2000.

[JNelson6563]

59. Agreed

As soon as America finishes its transition to Military State status. ;-)

Julie

[Donna Zen]

116. already happening

Military State status will continue at an alarming rate in 2005.

First because the Democratic party treated a member of the military like a plague. Dismissing someone before even showing a willingness to look at their credentials, and their human qualities. This is a chance to divide the military vote and restore some sense in our democracy.

Second, because Dean will lose, and lose big. Parts of the party will never recover. For all of you who believe otherwise, look at an electoral map. How many of those states do you intend to win by cutting middle-class tax cuts, having no foreign policy, being protrayed constantly by the right as "too angry" with the pictures to prove it. Bay Buchanan today said, that the many "whoops" of Dean are already in the can.

So_you think Clark can't win because of some far-fetched wishing it wasn't so. So be it. But know this, and know it now: we are heading for a disaster of monumental proportions. And don't ever blame me for what is about to happen; for what you paint as a traitor to Dean's ultimately happy cause, is a voice of reason who really doesn't want to live through another four years of bush.

And all of this misery will result because Democrats backed a center-right candidate wearing only the scantest label of liberal, who had inserted his foot in his mouth so many times his soles had developed their own taste buds.

[goobergunch]

61. The job of the President is to faithfully uphold and execute the laws

How does SAC-NATO do that?

[Donna Zen]

138. Is that a question?

You do realize that the military, unlike you and I, are sworn to uphold the laws. In the case of SACEUR, that also means International law.

SACEUR is only half of the job, the other half is European command which covers 89 countries.

Are you implying that SACEUR is not bound by law?

[edzontar]

66. We shall never know--unless he succeeds Pres. Dean...

But that is too far in the future to know for certain--the images are hazy, unclear.

Ask again later!

[Patriot_Spear]

60. I can't disagree with you JNelson, Clark's got 2 Strikes and 2 Outs...

He's got to do a lot more if he wants my support- if he can't win the primary, howe on earth do you think he could win an election?

[unfrigginreal]

62. That's his biggest problem as I see it too. He just can't win.

Yeah, there are other concerns such as his ties to lobbyists and his less than enthusiastic plans to stop tech jobs from moving overseas. Overall though, I think he'd lose to Bush for the very same reasons that he's losing to Dean. He's a lousy campaigner. People are a lot more excited about him when they hear his bio than when they hear him. Just look at the polls, the only time he led was before people actually got to see and hear him.

[jumptheshadow]

68. Wesley Clark

He hasn't governed in political office but he has had major management roles in the military, which, last I looked, was much more diverse than the state of Vermont. So he brings to us a record of dealing with people from all backgrounds and walks of life, unlike Howard Dean. He speaks four languages, knows geopolitics and international diplomacy, and is on first name terms with several heads of state.

Howard Dean has governing experience. But can we see those sealed documents, please, if he's running on his record? It only makes it worse that he has a Katherine Harris of his own in his state, in this case a politician who is friendly to him and who will provide him with non-objective legalistic cover. I'm pretty sick of this type of BS coming from politicians. The fact that the RW pulls these types of things do not make them ethical or the right thing to do.

Wesley Clark is learning very quickly. His style of fighting back, combining an ax and a scalpel, will work very well with the American public over time. In fact, his retorts to the RW are incredibly entertaining and often funny. Humor is much more effective than anger in many situations. The constant environment of fear and polarization during the past three years has been quite draining. Americans are weary, we want to relax, and then we want to get back to work. Enough with the drama, already!

Everybody in this race has incidents in their past that can be skewered out of proportion. Dean has enough baggage to fill up half an airplane. Perhaps Rove will uncover something on the General. Please note, however, that everything that has surfaced so far -- all the smears -- have been proven pretty baseless over time. Also note that Clark is a camera-friendly, likeable guy. Don't underestimate that advantage in this media-saturated era.

It's ridiculous that folks keep carping about Clark toasting a Republican dinner when he came back to retirement in his hometown. The important thing is that he had the brains and the moral depth to realize how dangerous the situation is in our country. He came forward out of a sense of commitment to this nation. He could have retired and have lived comfortably. Instead he chose to face the smear campaigns and embrace a grueling schedule. He's an admirable man.

Kosovo? Clark studied the just causes of war with the Jesuits. He deeply believes that force should be used as a last resort. He would not have launched the war in Iraq, he thought that properly orchestrated diplomacy would have emasculated Saddam. But he did believe that the mass murder and mass rapes in Kosovo justified intervention. There are people who argue that there wasn't a Holocaust, either. That doesn't make them right.

Wesley Clark is our strongest candidate. He'll make a great president and will be a well-respected world leader.

[goobergunch]

69. Dean was responsible to his constituents in Vermont

Was Clark re-elected every two years by the people he was "managing"?

[robbedvoter]

70. Was he now? Responsible, huh? Then what's with the Ashcroft maneuver?

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Dean-Records.html
``At first, Dean said he would open his records when George W. Bush did. Turns out Bush's records were open,'' Cutter said. ``Then he said he would let a judge decide, but now he's hiding behind an attorney general he himself appointed. It really makes you wonder what he's hiding.''

[goobergunch]

71. You missed the point of my post

Dean had to stand for re-election every two years. Clark did not.

Your post has been rebutted elsewhere in this thread.

ON EDIT: Vermont Election Results

Year  Dean  Repub
1992  74.7% 23.0%
1994  68.6% 19%
1996  70.6% 22.6%
1998  56%   41%
2000  50.4% 37.9%

[jumptheshadow]

72. Yes, he was

Dean was responsible to a very undiverse electorate in a small New England state. He didn't have to face the complex problems that Clark, by all accounts, managed magnificently during his tenure in the military. Clark was a middle class kid who rose through the ranks through hard work and political skill.

Dean, on the other hand, was born rich, was educated at a wealthy school, and outside of his brother's tragedy, he has had a sleighride through life. His "grassroots" base started with middle to upper class technocrats. It expanded a bit when the head of a union got ticked off at Clark and endorsed Dean instead. But does he really understand the true Democratic base, meaning the working class and minorities? That remains to be seen.

And if Dean is running on his record then it's time to open those records and let us examine that record in depth. It's time to stop with the BS antics.

[goobergunch]

74. First, the Chair and Vice Chair of the Cong. Black Caucus support Dean

Second, there are no elections in the military. There are elections in Vermont, as in every other state.

So what would the people in the military under Clark do if they wished to remove him?

[jumptheshadow]

76. They can endorse all they want

Clark's standing for election. If people don't like the way he governs, then they don't have to vote for him the next time. Besides, I think he probably has more character than most of the politicians who are currently in office. When I'm hiring people I will go for a hard-working, ethical person with a sense of humor and slightly less of a resume every time over the experienced guy who is shallow and doesn't play well with others.

Dean would have more credibility if he had governed in a more diverse state with more complex problems. Any person who has served as the mayor of my town is much better equipped to be President than Dean.

I've been talking to people on the street. The Confederate flag issue has really rankled some minority voters, to the point where they now dislike Al Gore for endorsing Dean. At the very least he's not a guy who is going to energize the minority electorate.

[JVS]

80. Hey, has there ever been an attempt to make a state government...

something other than a Democracy, like a monarchy or dictatorship? And would it be constitutional? Could Utah become a theocratic state run by clerics?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SayitAintSo]

86. Very well said ....

I think these guys ( Dean supporters ) are just flooding the forums with anti Clark (or whoever is the biggest threat) / pro Dean propaganda ....

I'm afraid that Dean may be our Nader or nadir ..... or both ....

[JNelson6563]

96. I think we'll soon hear from the Pentagon

insiders and that will tell us what strategy is needed should Clark win this race.

I don't see a point by point addressing of issues here. I see lots of opinions. We still don't have evidence to my knowledge to shut the right up about the Kosovo affair.

And wasn't there something about if Rove would have returned Clark's calls he'd be a Republican now?

I think we'd lose a great deal of the left if Clark is the nom. I know lots of Dean supporters who cupport Dean with the knowledge he's not as left as they'd like, they find him acceptable though. I do not get the same reaction when I mention the General.

Julie

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Myra]

77. Here's a suggestion: if you want to worry about "contradictory statements"

Get a load of Dean's load:

-Claiming his lack of foreign policy experience is not a liability:
"Well, first, I have more foreign policy background than Pres. Bush, Pres. Clinton, Pres. Reagan, or Pres. Carter did when they got there."
Then blurting out:
"I need to plug that hole on the resume, and I'm going to do that with my running mate,"

-Sealing his records in 2002, then refusing to unseal them and dumping
the issue on a judge in a blatant stalling maneuver followed by his
flip declaration that:
"I'll unseal mine if he (Bush) unseals his,"

-Getting a medical deferment for a back injury then skiing for a
year and blurting out yet another flippant dismissal:
"I took a physical, I failed a physical. If that makes this an issue, then so be it."

-His deep misgivings about his party's revamped nomination process which he now seems to love:
"In the past, when we've done this, settled on somebody quick, then you have buyer's remorse,"
he told The Boston Globe, "We've become a sitting duck for that."

And of course his vow to take federal matching campaign funds,
followed by his refusal to take them.

Dean is clearly the more vulnerable candidate on the issue of
"contradictory statements."

[JNelson6563]

82. You have not addressed the issue

And the issue of this thread is Clark and my misgivings about him being the right horse for the Democratic Party in this particular race.

When I want to discuss my misgivings about Dean I can start a thread on that or join one of the dozens that are usually going on.

Please stay on topic.

Julie

[jumptheshadow]

87. Well I have addressed your issues

I took them point by point.

But then this entire thread was meant to be a rhetorical statement rather than a true discussion. Right?

[Donna Zen]

140. The issue of this thread

Is to blow out of all proportions anything you can to make a point that is only made because you demand it to be. So Clark is not a politician! Who cares. So he didn't get elected to govern Vermont! So what...the governor of Vermont controls less than large city mayors. Most people, even on this board, don't trust politicians, and unlike this board, most people respect a self-made person who succeeds because they busted their butt.

How about an ad with Albanians thanking General Clark for saving their lives? And believe me, from what I seen, they would not only gladly do that, they would raise the money to pay for it.

Minimizing Dean's vulnerabilities will not make them go away; and they dwarf anything that the regime can throw at Clark.

[shivaji]

78. Peek at Rove commercial coming in October 2004

It will simply show Clark's speeches praising ad nauseum Bush*, Rummy, Rice and the NeoCons. The video tapes of Clark speeches at repug fund raisers are being processed as we speak.

There is nothing more powerful than visual images of Clark praising Bush* to DE-ENERGIZE and CONFUSE the base dem voters.

Rove has no such video's of Dean ever praising Bush*.

[jumptheshadow]

88. Clark would answer such a commercial

And he would do it compellingly, entertainingly, and believably.

It's a non-issue.

[SahaleArm]

89. As opposed to showing someone ranting and raving...

Oh they already have that commercial ready.

[shivaji]

91. Please explain HOW Clark would answer it

Thanks

[Tom Rinaldo]

99. Like this

It is actually a perfect set up for Clark. Look, it is true that that tape hurt Clark some running as a newly introduced Democrat in Democratic primaries. It threw some Democratic activists off and made it harder for some to chose Clark over antoher Deomocrat. If Clark wins the nomination however, he then will represent the Democratic Party, and he will be reaching out to all voters, most of whom were supporting Bush after 9/11.

During the General Election I think Clark might well use that tape himself. There might be a few second clip of the scene at the Little Rock Fund Raiser. It would fade and Clark would be facing the camera, and he might say something like, "Remember what America was like in the weeks and months following 9/11? I certainly do. We were united as a people. We gave our full support to our President as Commander in Chief. I know I did. We wished him well in the fight against terror. Americans rallied to George Bush because we expected him to fullfill the promise he made to the American people, to go after Osama Bin Ladin, to bring the terrorists who attacked our nation to justice. George Bush had an experienced team to lean on. But when policy disputes broke out among them, when Secratary Powell was resisted in his efforts to enlist the world community in our common cause, Bush needed to make the tough calls, and the calls he made were the worng ones. That's why I am running for President. I'm Wes Clark, and I approve of this message."

[jumptheshadow]

142. Tom, send me a postcard when you write a book

I will be the first in line to buy it.

Yes, Wes Clark would make those very reasonable points and they would resonate with many, many people.

[Scott Lee]

101. Oh you mean the frontrunner Howard Dean? That one.

Yes.

[QC]

93. How about the "I need to plug that hole in my resume" commercial?

Has that shown up in the crystal ball yet?

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sleipnir]

102. And he's guilty of crimes

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

107. I hope Clark loses soon--so we won't have to read anymore of those

"Dean can't win--Clark is our only hope threads."

His supporters are doing him a great disservice.

[JVS]

110. Word!

[SahaleArm]

111. Of course Dean supporters would never start a thread like this...

Ho, Ho says Merry Christmas and happy hyprocrisy.

[edzontar]

117. I haven't seen any lately.....but then again, we are WINNING

And don't have to resort to such tactics.

[gulliver]

108. Let's start with number three.

"Clark has Pentagon baggage that I suspect the reich-wing is waiting to break out if he won the nom."

You have a suspicion about something. That means nothing. Back it up or show us your crystal ball.

Informed by what number three says about your standard of discourse, let's move back to your other two "concerns."

"Clark has never governed," you say. Actually Clark has run many, many large organizations. George Washington had never "governed" either (by your definition) nor had Eisenhower.

And finally "Clark has never been elected to public office." Well, that's just redundant isn't it. Aren't you trying to say that Clark has never governed twice. But of course holding elective office and being in government is a sword that cuts both ways. Clark is beholden to no one and is not a Washington insider. Man, I guess that's a bad thing.

Your framework is silly. Snap out of it.

[JNelson6563]

109. Actually my source is confidential

on my Pentagon-waiting-in-the-wings point. I bellieve the info may be made public soon, if so I will pass it on. Other than that you are welcome to your opinion.

And if you think any horse in this race "is beholden to no one" friend, then I suggest that it is you who needs to "snap out of it." ;-)

Julie

[arewethereyet]

119. 2nd, 3rd and especially 4th stars earned inside the beltway

and NOT in the Pentagon.

They are insiders and equally beholden to the military industrial complex.

I don't need my military contacts to teach me that. And there are things that will come out from his Army days should he win the nomination.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

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[arewethereyet]

128. I think thats a given or he wouldn't be where is is today

there are NO outsiders.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arewethereyet]

122. there is a significant difference between govern and command

n/t

[JVS]

125. This difference is becoming less and less clear at this point in time

and that is not a good thing.

[arewethereyet]

127. I'd have to disagree on that

Soldiers have zero choice as to who their leader is and area expected to do as told 100% of the time or they risk their life and liberty.

Citizens are allowed to vote for their choice and can disagree so long as its done civilly.

The differences are stark and unchanging.

[JVS]

131. I think you misread me.

I agree with your point: command is fundamentally different from government. What I was trying to say is that in the current political environment the concepts are getting muddled. In short, our society is becoming more militaristic.

[arewethereyet]

134. OK

n/t

[John_H]

135. 180 degrees from the obvious.

Clark wins because he breaks the media/GOP storyline--Bush is the competent guy to keep us safe from evildoers.

Once that mem is destroyed the dems proven advantage on every other issue spells W-I-N. Or at least a hell of a lot closer than the guy who every News Report will call "inexperienced on foreign Policy" "Untested" "Dove" "Small State."

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dianne Maire]

144. Why Clark should win

America is at war, although Mr. Bush proclaimed it over. American troops continue to fight and die in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Foreign policy is the biggest issue the next president will have on his plate. Making America safer are Bush's bywords and a big part of his campaign. He continues to say things are getting better when it's easy to see, at least from Europe, that things are getting worse.
When you compare Mr. Bush's handling of Iraq to Clark's success in Kosovo the differences are sharply defined.
Clark was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the US highest civilian honour. He was also awarded France's highest award, the Legion d'Honneur. There's not as much contention as there is praise for his leadership abilities even in the Pentagon.
He's more than a military uniform. He was Nato Supreme Allied Commander and Commander in Chief of the US forces in Europe. I would say he has some experience in governing.
Clark should win because there's a lot of repairing to do around the world and he has the qualifications to do it.
If the next election was just about the economy I might feel better about Dean but it's about peace in America and around the world.
Clark is the man for the season the nation is in.

[BootinUp]

145. Welcome to DU Dianne!

:hi:

nice post, I tend to agree with your point of view.

[Dianne Maire]

165. Thanks for the welcome

If we can get Clark nominated his character, message, and leadership abilities will stand against anything the Bush team will throw his way. I actually hate to say it but this can't be said for any other candidate I see out there. Any would be better than Bush but I don't think they can beat him.

[mmonk]

153. Rove has dems down pat

[mmonk]

156. The republican fundraiser issue is designed for dem primary voters

like you. It wouldn't work in the general election very well though. Team bush would have to explain how that was bad.

Bush has "governed" before as a governor. GW was in the position NOT to have to go to Vietnam when the "military man" went. So bush is not a military man. Also, what Pentagon baggage? Opposing some pentagon people in their foreign policy views? I guess by addressing your concerns, a perfect candidate could be bush since you concerns would thus be addressed.

[TorchTheWitch]

157. here ya go

Clark has never governed.

Not as an elected governor of a state, no. He has most certainly governed military as well as civilians, however, which has been addressed here many times.

Clark has never been elected to office.

So? It's not a requirement to run for president. I imagine it isn't a requirement because it's unnecessary. How many people when contemplating who to vote for take into consideration if each candidate ever was elected to another office before? I sure as hell don't. Having never been a career politician previously is actually an attractive quality to a whole lot of people. BushCo can try to rake up some interesting Pentagon baggage on Clark at their own peril... they've got a hell of a lot more baggage to hide.

Clark has Pentagon baggage that I suspect the reich-wing is waiting to break out if he won the nom.

Aaaaah, Pentagon baggage... yep, he knows where all the bodies are buried. He's got friends and allies there now who know where the live bodies are about to be buried. BushCo is well aware of that, which makes that Pentagon resource a pretty damned attactive quality.

I find this "Why Clark Can't Win" speech pretty bizzare coming from someone who has recently stated that Clark is their second choice and they would prefer either a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket the order of preference being immaterial.

[JNelson6563]

161. yes, admittedly I've been shocked

to recently learn from an unimpeachable source of some dreadful things in Clark's past that have compelled me to take another look. A real close one. It's been disheartening, to put it mildly.

Julie

[jumptheshadow]

162. Post the problem, with a link to the unimpeachable source

Let reasonable people decide without any sealed records.

[JNelson6563]

163. as of now it is confidential

but I understand a web-site is being put together. I will point you that way when it is complete.

I can tell you this, the source has first hand accounts.

Julie

[estherc]

167. Secret info, what a load of crap

yes, admittedly I've been shocked to recently learn from an unimpeachable source of some dreadful things in Clark's past that have compelled me to take another look. A real close one. It's been disheartening, to put it mildly.

Julie

I know a really bad secret about your favorite candidate too but I'm not at liberty to divulge it because its a secret but its really really bad. So you really shouldn't vote for him and this information proves he's unelectable. Gee, I wonder how many people I've convinced with that one.

[VolcanoJen]

159. Out here in middle America...

... I can almost assure you that Democratic voters would trust General Clark with national security far more than Governor Dean.

[JNelson6563]

164. I'm in middle America

and Clark doesn't have much support. They've had 2 meet-ups with less than 6 attendees each and they aren't having one in January.

Those I know in politics here, most support Dean. Even those who wish he were more liberal. Yet when I mention Clark and I never get a very warm response.

But then again, the folks in my part of middle America don't seem to hold National Security as their top priority, in spite of the corporate media telling them repeatedly that it is.

Julie

[estherc]

168. meetup crowds aren't enough to elect a candidate

Its going to take more than a few hundred thousand people at meetups on wednesday nights to win an election.

Dean supporters at this point may be more vocal and have more free time on their hands to attend meetings. But the election isn't going to be decided by an applause meter. Just because Dean supporters are more active and louder doesn't mean there are more of them. Maybe there are. Maybe there aren't. That's why we have primary elections. We'll see what happens when the voting starts.

[mouse7]

166. Yes, Clark can win, too.

Y'all need to learn these electability pols are garbage. Clinton was DOOMED, DOOMED, DOOMED in 1992 according to all of you.