So, what the fuck you gonna do?

[flvegan]

So, what the fuck you gonna do?

I've heard a lot of "cut 'n run" talk here today. I've heard a lot of hate, anger, frustration. Much of it rightly so. What I haven't heard, and what I'm sure many of us need to hear, is what the fuck you're going to do?

I want specifics, enlightenment as to what I can do. I want a gathering of ideas of what I, we, can do now. What's next? I'd love to hear how this rage will translate into change. Share it. Teach me. Help me effectuate change.

Who is making appointments to meet with their reps tomorrow? I'd love to hear about those getting ready to lay a smackdown on those that gave up today.

Who is contemplating a run at public office because it's all just bullshit at this point, and someone needs to step up? Win or lose, someone needs to step up.

Who, WHO is taking a stand, and how are you doing it?

Bring it...

[bluethruandthru]

1. I'm really starting to reconsider the "two senators per state" thing.

It really hit me hard today how the 6 hundred thousand people in North Dakota got just as much say in the Alito nomination as the 34 million in California. I'm thinking that maybe we need to figure out a way to make things a bit more fair. Or maybe I'm just tired and not thinking straight!

[flvegan]

2. No no no...

You ARE thinking straight. Except that you're using the word "fair" which doesn't seem to exist anymore.

[bluethruandthru]

4. Maybe we need to start there.

Sometimes I feel like the extremely underpopulated, middle of the country, red states are dictating the way the rest of us live....in large part because of the senate.

[flvegan]

8. But why?

Your post has a lot of validity, but why is that the case?

[lastliberalintexas]

28. Well, because that's what the Constitution says

:shrug:


Changing the influence of small states would require amending the Constitution- something that isn't going to happen anytime soon with the people currently in power.

[flvegan]

31. No.

Why are they dictating it?

[lastliberalintexas]

39. I guess I don't understand what you're asking

The other poster was lamenting the influence of small, mostly red states and the fact that their Senators carry as much weight as those of CA or NY, despite the huge disparities in populations. The vote of a Wyoming senator representing 500K people carried as much weight today as Boxer's vote, even though she represents 34 million people. The vote of the people in Wyoming was almost 700 times as powerful as the vote of the people of California today due to the way the Senate is structured by the Const. There are some large republican states which are screwed by this as well (like Texas), but it isn't quite as glaring because the repubs are in power.


House districts have to be as close to equal as possible and abide by the one person, one vote principle- I think the current size for a House seat is about 500K people. Not so with the Senate, as it is apportioned by state boundaries rather than population.

And I assume that is what the other poster meant by the tyrrany of the small red states.

[flvegan]

41. Excellent post. What I'm asking is

what then, can we do about this?

[lastliberalintexas]

47. Amend the Const or turn states like Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho

and the Dakotas blue. Which of those things do you think would be easier? Or should we just wait for the blizzard that cripples Hell? :)

[flvegan]

52. Did you sign up for "easy?"

Easier would be selling out and putting a W'04 sticker on my bumper...

As for the blizzard that cripples Hell...why not? Why not?

[Blue_In_AK]

45. It's fair for there to be two senators from each state

because the smaller states don't have as many representatives. Alaska has ONE representative to "represent" the entire state. Think of that. A state one-fifth the size of the rest of the country, with cultures ranging from Anchorage to Shaktoolik, and we have ONE representative. And an idiot at that. :shrug:

[LeftyMom]

49. But that's proportionate to your population

Yuu have the same number of senators CA does, even though we have many many times the population. Your vote counts for more in presidential elevtions than mine. WHat's fair about that?

Bear in mind that this system of over-represinting underpopulated states is one of the factors that kept slavery legal so long.

[Blue_In_AK]

56. What's fair about that is

that this is a union of STATES, not of individuals. If Alaska was a Democratic state (it has been in the past and will be again), you'd be more than happy to have our two equal votes.

[LeftyMom]

68. Not really

It would make sense to me to stand up for fairness to people, rather than institutions, even if it meant a short term political setback. I'm quite the idealist when I get wound up. :shrug:

[Blue_In_AK]

86. I'm an idealist, too

just tired tonight. I guess I get irritated at the "red" state bashing, or "small" state bashing or whatever. I suppose Alaska should have just stayed a territory and been done with it, and then we wouldn't have these issues. Maybe we could have annexed ourselves onto Canada - it makes more sense anyway. Bah, humbug - I'm tired of the United States.

[lastliberalintexas]

51. Sorry, but geographic size means nothing

Saying that AK only gets one rep even though it's about 1/5 the rest of the country is like the republicans showing that map of the states painted red or blue rather than purple to show just how much more of the "country" Bush won than Gore. Bush won more LAND, but not more PEOPLE in 2000, and what you're saying would make his win amongst the cornfields more important than among the people in the 5 burroughs of NY.

Now, I sympathize with you for having Stevens, as I have no representation, either. But I can't see any reason that your vote should be 800 times more powerful than the vote of a Californian or even 750 times more powerful than the vote of a Texan (even if my state getting screwed is a GOOD thing right now!). Senatorial representation and the electoral college are what got us into this mess, and I'd love to see it changed. I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Blue_In_AK]

54. Did you see my agreement with the poster downthread

who said that these sorts of decisions should be made by the House rather than the Senate? That would lessen Alaska's "power" even more, so I'm not saying that we should have 800 times more power, especially not in something like confirming a Supreme Court justice. But by the same token, I do believe there needs to be some equality between states. Otherwise, you populous places would completely ignore smaller states' issues. But, absolutely, I agree that important confirmations should be made by the House.

[Taoschick]

87. okay....

My state, New Mexico, has a smaller population than metropolitan Atlanta. Does that mean we should allow Atlanta to determine what's best for us? Our senators represent our states. Every state has an equal footing in the Senate. It probably has something to do with us being the United states of America.

[Erika]

6. 100% true. The blue state senators represent far more

CITIZENS than do the red states but the power is the same. South Dakota Senators carry the same weight as do the New York Senators.

I think our whole constitution needs to be looked at. The red state minorities are forcing their will down the throats of the majority.

[AX10]

9. The power of confirmation/filibuster should belong to the House

They have more members and the House is designed on the concept of a proportional population.
The Senate should just be a yes/no check on the lower house. Let the lower house have most of the power. That's how it is in all other countries with a bi-cameral legislature.

[Erika]

14. Why should it be that way?

All its led to is a rubber stamp when the same party controls both the House and Senate.

[napi21]

18. NO, because the house always votes Party!

At least the Senate USED to try to vote for the "public good"! You don't want to transfer the power to the House!

Somehow we need to get the bitter partisanship OUT of the Senate!

[flvegan]

37. Good point. How?

[napi21]

64. Hell, if I knew the answer to that, I'd be your next Senator!

I don't know how to do that. If you look at the members of today's Senate, the only ones who are actually willing to consider what's the best for AMERICANS as a whole, and not just their own constitutents are the OLD ones. The ones who will be retiring soon, or croaking...which ever comes first!

The newbies are all extremely partisan.

I think redrawing district lines has a lot to do with it. Before that, all Senators had to worry about being re-elected. Now they're almost guaranteed.

[Blue_In_AK]

48. Excellent suggestion.

[FormerDittoHead]

17. How about NY, NJ, CA, etc break up into like 200 states?

Or otherwise more proportional to their population and say, Wyoming.

[napi21]

22. 200 is TOO MANY, but that's an interesting idea.

I don't know about NY, but Ca. sure is big enough to be at least 2 or 3 states! So is Tx, & NM. I have no idea how you could do something like that though. You'd almost have to have such a severe division N/S or E/W to convince enough people that that's what would be good for THEM. Hmmm

[Ksec]

3. Grassroots baby

Take away their money. Make the Liebermans and the rest of them swim for their lives. Threaten the DNC to stop trying to be like republicans or else we take our money and votes elsewhere. Hell, I could get as much satifaction from some unknown third party somewhere.

Now I know were up against a majority and we have no power but appeasing Satan aint gettin it.

Talk with your wallet. Money talks and BS walks. You people hafta know how much power you hold together. We make up a HUGE part of this party. Together our money is second to none.

[flvegan]

5. Hell, yes.

Now, now we're talking.

We all know that the dollars rule the game. We've been shown that time and again.

"Take away their money" is an excellent initiative.

[LeftyMom]

7. The problem with that thinking

is that the corporate suck-ups can always fall back on thier big business donors. The real dems need us, but the vichy dems can rely on those who bought and paid for them.

I don't want to knock down your idea, but it needs a little refinement. Pair it with a big push for lower caps on donations, so individual donors count for more, maybe?

[flvegan]

10. So then, what do we do about that?

Good point, but what is the solution?

[LeftyMom]

11. Did you see my edit?

I added a bit.

[flvegan]

15. I did, but my reply would be the same.

Call a rose a rose...

If a vichy dem betrays us, then let them bask in the glory of being a politician without a country. A rethug without a party. Vote the fucker out. The problem, or rather, task at hand is the action of voting the person out. How to do so?

[LeftyMom]

20. Well we can't rely on the party machinery

and we don't control the purse strings, but as people who know politics we can be influential in our communities. Talk up thier primary challengers, send them money (since primary budgets are much smaller and the big money gets saved for the general election, this can doa great deal of good) register voters, educate voters, herd people to the polls.

We know how to make this grass roots stuff happen, there's just a built in reluctance to turn against anybody with in the party. Being Stupid Fucking Jackass (D-Loserville) shouldn't make one invulnerable to challenges from the left, we just need to consider the implications of doing so carefully and focus on areas where doing so is more likely to get us a better Dem (or even a 3rd party leftie) rather than a rethug to show for our trouble.

[flvegan]

25. True. We can't rely on ANY machinery

You hit it...

1. Register
2. Educate
3. Get them to the polls

Imagine the fallout from a successful run at these 3 critical points.

BTW, it's really tough for me to not make a Rage Against the Machinery post...

[LeftyMom]

30. Not that I'm wildly optimistic at the moment

but god damn it, I'm fucking stubborn and refuse let these assholes fuck over my rights without putting up a fight. It's still a good thing if I fight for my country, my rights and my child out of sheer stubbornness and spite, right?

[flvegan]

36. It's not stubbornness.

Stubbornness is based upon what you subscribe to in and about your beliefs in this case. Stubbornness is, sadly, a divisionary tactic as it's a negatively viewed base, which, in this case, isn't valid.

And you don't fight for your country, rights and your child out of sheer stubbornness and spite. No way, dear. You fight for them because of ethics and morals, and dare I say, love. Two things that the current regime knows nothing about. And the third, only if it's in regards to profit margins. I'd have added family values, but it's not only redundant, but again, another thing that the right would have no understanding of, and I'd like them to at least learn something.

[LeftyMom]

38. I like to think you're right

but part of me really just wants to give these assholes the finger. :blush:

[Erika]

12. Does anyone remember the map of the country that showed

which states paid in more taxes than they got back in $ from the feds, and those states that paid in less taxes and got more than they paid in back from the feds?

If I remember correctly the blue states paid in the most and got the least back and the red states got back more than they paid in.

There's a lot of inequities that need to be addressed and remedied.

[LeftyMom]

13. Yep, that's quite true

Here's the map.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/15/12918/784

[Erika]

16. Thanks for the map.

It appears the minority and tax dollar recipients are having their say while neglecting the majority who are paying the bills.

[Vickers]

19. You don't fucking want to know.

And I ain't sayin' it here.

:P

[flvegan]

23. Yes I do...but

I get the non-disclosure, and it makes me smile. You're my type of...well, anyway...

I don't care where you say it or don't say it, just so long as you do it.

"Bring it" should be the rallying cry of our brother/sisterhood.

[Vickers]

24. Your "bring it" was the only reason I replied.

I intend to. :thumbsup:

[flvegan]

29. Good, because it's "bring it" or "leave it"

We all need to choose one, adhere to it, commit to it, and live by it.

I choose "bring it" and I'm happy you did as well.

[PassingFair]

21. MoveOn and PDA and DFA

I'm going to work towards cooperation with other progressives.

I think there will be a LOT of people looking around for a group
that ACTUALLY does something besides glad-hand and ask for money.

These three should be working together.

[Lorien]

26. I'm starting with this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2420366

Then I'll look for true progressive dems who will run against DINO incumbents. Once I find them, I'll work tirelessly to put them in office.

[flvegan]

40. Lorien, we agree on so many things. Please, please

let me know about the folks you work tirelessly for. It'll save me time, since if you support them, I know that I can and should as well.

[Lorien]

43. Will Do. Are you a member of the PDA or Progressive Majority?

they endorse some of the best!

[flvegan]

46. I have to say this

because of my actions and views in other forums, I don't admit to memberships in a great many forums.

I say this to you because I know...but I do appreciate and just might even follow up upon your suggestions.

Please tell me you understand...

[Lorien]

82. I understand-but those are groups on their own websites

I'll try to get some links tomorrow.

[EFerrari]

27. Here's an idea: disrupt the appearance of consent

in both of their favorite expression of the same. Disrupt it in any peaceable way you can but especially the two ways that they take the most for granted.

Money is an important one. But, don't forget the vote.

I'm not saying, don't vote for Democrats. I'm saying scare the bejeezus out of the people who take your agreement for granted by MAKING SURE YOUR VOTE IS COUNTED. Our elections are so messed up, I promise you that if you push on this, you will be scary to the Deaf Majority in Congress.

Check out what DU's own GuvWorld is doing in CA -- he's organizing the state a community at a time:

http://guvwurld.blogspot.com/2005/06/guide-to-voter-confidence-resolution.html

[flvegan]

44. Excellent! More like this, please!!!

[geomon666]

32. What good is talking to the reps going to do?

They've already proven they aren't listening. We should be actively working to boot every democrat that sits in the senate today. I don't care how they voted, if they were sitting there today, they need to be gone. I don't care how long it takes. Time is no longer a factor. They ALL need to be gone and replaced with real progressives.

[LeftyMom]

35. But some of them *are* real progressives

Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot. We have good Dems with senority and they're priceless. Those of you with crappy senators, I'll do what I can to help you get rid of 'em, but there's no freakin' way any good Dem should work against a good senator like Barbara Boxer and anybody who proposes it will get a hell of a fight from me.

We're pissed, we're gonna take action, but let's not hurt ourselves with ill-considered outbursts.

[geomon666]

85. Not in my book.

All of them, every single one of them have blood on their hands.

[uppityperson]

33. support the Dem challenging Cantwell, and wrote her a "shame" note

shame on you, you have blood on your hands, etc. I will not support her this enxt time.

[unkachuck]

34. maybe the tent's too big....

....we need a smaller tent, we need a Progressive Democratic Party that we can grow and eventually bring the country along by delivering services and solutions to everyday problems....

....we need to stop wasting our time, money and vote on/with people that don't think like us....they will never 'allow' us to take control of the Democratic Party, it's their Party, it's a corporate party and corporate money will ensure that it stays that way....

....unlike some, I do think the Dems will win both Houses in November, but it won't yeild progressives very much....Democratic leadership doesn't like liberals, progressives, their ideas or programs and in the end, we'll still receive very little for our support....

....until we have someplace else to take our time, money and vote that's viable, they will continue to ignore us, and if we grow, they will emulate us....I know this isn't a very popular idea but it seems the only way to me....

[flvegan]

42. Why is the tent too big?

You've made good points...blow them up.

[unkachuck]

59. too many people in the Party....

....disagree over 'progressive values' and they always will, that's a needless fight....waste of energy and resources....it's too easily sabotaged by money....we need to think out of the box....

....for example, why can't we come up with some kind of basic heatlhcare insurance or service and tie it to Progressive Party membership?....

....people want solutions to their problems....talk to Chavez about Progressive Party oil discounts.....we now have 'proud American' states negotiating with Chavez for his heating oil....I don't hear people receiving the oil complaining over ideology....they support the idea....let them support us along with the oil....

....you could NEVER do anything like that within the corporate Dem party....

[flvegan]

60. Very good, very good.

"money" probably don't need me to say more, right?

[carolinalady]

50. Here is what the fuck I think we need to do-

I posted this on the Alito forum, but I will be talking about this for a long time.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x278330

[flvegan]

53. Yeah?

I hope the fuck you do. AND, I'll be there to watch and participate.

DU as a force to be reckoned with? I'm all about that. Some great, great, driven folks here. Folks I can get behind and support. That's part of why I'm here.

Well done!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. You first.

[flvegan]

61. Me first?

I think I already suggested that I wanted new ideas, new initiatives, poster.

"You first" in that light, is kind of, um, well...a stupid thing to say.

What's your point?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. What's wrong with the old ideas?

[flvegan]

66. Which old ideas, specifically?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Peace, Justice and tossing mom's salad.

[flvegan]

71. Interesting post, RUMMYisFROSTED

Maybe you could divulge more on the tossing of mom's salad.

Of course, if one wanted to hear from a Freeper, one could just go to the source, right?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

74. I'm not sure I understand, Mr. McCarthy.

One thing I do know: Freeper's don't have a sense of humor.

[flvegan]

77. .

Some of them do, I'm sure. However, you have no answer to my question, yet you have an attack.

Mmmmm...I love the smell of strawman in the morning.

What else you got?

[flvegan]

75. i should post a poll as to how long

it takes SOME posters to respond to the bullshit they sling on this site.

Not that I'm suggesting anything...

Maybe some posters are busy, um, "tossing mom's salad"

*snort* Yeah, went there...

[carolinalady]

67. The old ideas are good they just need repackaged.

Recently I read or heard (I don't remember) a saying that Republican talking points fit on a bumper sticker while Dems prefer essays. I think it was a right winger who said it, but I have to agree with him on this point. The mainstream voter isn't necessarily a college grad.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

72. Tape an essay to your bumper.

More people will read it.

[flvegan]

73. OR, post it as a bullshit opinion

with an author with a screenname based in Rumsfeld...

Oh, did I go there? Guess I did...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

78. My posts stand for themselves.

If you're calling me a Freeper... Fuck Off!

If I knew what your problem was, I'd address it. You've broken the rules twice now and forced me to break them, too.

[flvegan]

80. Well, poster, I didn't

so your "fuck off" deserves a "fuck you" though I won't be the one to deliver it.

I've broken no rules, nor have I forced you to break any as well.

Check your anger at the door...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Vote issues. Not polticians or party.

I've notified Senator Cantwell that she won't get my vote if the Dems, again, nominate her.

[flvegan]

62. Agreed.

A (D-somewhere) following a name shouldn't dictate how we think.

[thatsrightimirish]

58. I'm in high school and

I would like to major in Political Science to help turn things around. Is it unrealistic? I don't think so. At least I'll try. I love this country to much to just leave. So I am obviously not old enough but when I am old enough watch out. The Alito nomination did nothing but motivate me. That is all I have to say.

[flvegan]

65. That's all you have to say?

Well then, in response...

Good for you. Unrealistic? Hell, but I hope not. As for "old enough" if I banked the political future of this country on those "old enough" well, I'd be done.

Be motivated. Stay motivated. Thanks for your involvement.

[Dr Fate]

84. Good for you. Bring friends. n/t

n/t

[Amaryllis]

69. I've been working REALLLY hard on election reform since I found out

that nearly 100% of our votes are being counted on trade secret sofware that not even our election officials can access, programmed by private corporations with GOP political and financial ties. If we dont deal with this, nothing else we do matters, becasue if they control the elections, we just get more of the same. see www.whoscounting.net
read about the companies counting your votes, and who they are in bed with , and their histories.

so this is where I've been putting my energy for the past year and a half.

[upi402]

76. knock the snot bubbles outa DINO traitors

and when our house is disinfected, give an all-American squirt at the thoroughly infested government and MEDIA!

[TriMetFan]

79. I will stay and fight for my Nation and her Constitution.

And work my ass off to get good Democrats or Green Party in the Senate. But if things start getting ugly I will send my family to England.

[skipos]

81. I am going to work to get our dem majority back in 06.

And then a dem president in 08.

That way we won't have to worry about more Alitos being nominated.

[Dr Fate]

83. I think we need to "punish" the fake DEMS for a catharsis- OR....

...we could push them to "do something to prove you can fight"-

Something they are actually willing to do- something seen as "reasonable" but yet will placate folks like me who want to see us tap the Re pubs (I've given up on seeing a punch- so I'll accept a polite tap) just once.

Any ideas on that? How about a coordinated TV campaign were DEM'S bring up specific Bush Lies, and call them "lies"???

Can they do that? It involves saying "words" that happen to be truthful. It might not upset people who take polls- but I cant guarantee that 100%...

Can they do that?

[TriMetFan]

88. I agree. I will help the people in Washington State get Cantwell out....

since I live in Portland OR. It would not be to hard to do.

[yellowdogmi]

89. Hammer the administration about domestic spying

I am starting out by an LTTE campaign. Here is the first one. Please offer any insights you find appropriate.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2426085&mesg_id=2426085

[Efilroft Sul]

90. DU, leading liberal/prog boards/blogs must get their heads together.

1. We in the grassroots must hammer together a unified platform of what we want out of leadership and what we want for our country.
2. We ignore the little differences between us for the common good.
3. We all sign our names to the platform.
4. The owners/admins/publishers of the boards and blogs deliver our platform to the Democratic Party leadership on July 4.
5. When the platform is delivered with all signatures, the Democratic Party leadership is told to ignore us at their own peril.
6. We do all that we can to eliminate vichy Democrats and the enabler allies.
7. We run candidates who truly reflect a real and better choice for America.

It's a start. As said more than 200 years ago, "We must hang together, or surely we will hang separately."