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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:13 PM
Original message
How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam
"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam?

How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

John Kerry

Great article recalling this Kerry conundrum. Karl Rove will have so much fun I almost look forward to watching, but I really hope people wake up and take a long hard look at your senator.

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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. That was a great presentation before Congress
I spent time last week with a vet who was in the room when Kerry testified that day. He wasn't able to put in words how moving that day was.

This will NOT come back to haunt Kerry; just the opposite.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Exactly. Even Kerry teared-up...
Yes, even Sen. Kerry teared-up on '60 Minutes' the other night recalling Vietnam and his VVAW effort.

Which makes his IWR vote even tougher to comprehend. If he can become so emotional, 30 years later, about all that was Vietnam, how could he not have applied that learning and empathy to the Iraq situation and vote accordingly? 155 other Congressmen/women were able to vote "correctly" on the issue.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. I spose the same way you ask a man to die for missing WMD's
Ironic aint it? Johns been poisoned by his years in Washington.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. My feelings exactly!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Of course he has
Its a shame but it happens to all of them. Thats why I favor term limits.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. No irony at all.
But I wouldn't expect Dean people to understand the difference between someone who can be anti-war with no accountability and someone who has responsibility to millions of constituents. Luckily, the vast majority of Democrats do understand the difference.



"If you cannot admit Kerry and the Congress was lied to then you cannot say that Bush lied." (DUer cindyw)

I guess I expect the Executive branch to be truthful to Congress, if not, the whole system breaks down. I beleive that Bush lied to Congress about the urgency of reacting to WMD in Iraq. Nonetheless, a resolution was passed that gave the President power to wage war IF UN inspections were not working. They were working, they were finding no weapons, and Bush used the resolution to declare unilateral war without basis.

Bush lied, lots of people died...and are still dying. He broke his trust with Congress and if we had a Republican Party that was not propping up this unelected fraud, we'd have impeachment proceedings underway.

Something else, too. Let's assume President Dean or Kerry or Edwards or Clark is elected next year and they have hard intelligence that says North Korea is ready to light the nuclear firecracker on, say, Japan.

If our President goes to Congress and says that this action is imminent, would we not expect Congress to react and support a resolution if the evidence is presented? Would we be pissed off if the Republican majority decided this was a political ploy and rejected the Resolution? If we're right and the nukes are thrown, who is responsible? I would think the American people, certainly the Japenese, would hold the Republican majority responsible.

As a member of the minority party the gamble was vote against and be proven wrong or support and qualify. Choosing the former, in hindsight, would be right but if we were wrong, the Party would be as good as toast. I think our Democratic Senators played the best hand they were dealt. I guess you can choose to hate Kerry and Edwards for their vote, but I think if I had been an elected Senator, given that this administration controlled the debate and the evidence, I'd have opted to protect my constituents.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The resolution was seen by some Democrats, like John Kerry

as a vehicle to steer Bush back to the U.N. and hopefully forestall war. Indeed Sen. Kerry and others were able to get language to that effect inserted into the bill:

In back-to-back speeches, the senators, John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, and Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said they had come to their decisions after the administration agreed to pursue diplomatic solutions and work with the United Nations to forestall a possible invasion.

"I will vote yes," said Mr. Kerry, a possible presidential candidate in 2004, "because on the question of how best to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, the administration, including the president, recognizes that war must be our last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we should be acting in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein."

Mr. Hagel said the administration should not interpret his support or that of others as an endorsement of the use of pre-emptive force to press ideological disagreements.

"Because the stakes are so high, America must be careful with her rhetoric and mindful of how others perceive her intentions," Mr. Hagel said. "Actions in Iraq must come in the context of an American-led, multilateral approach to disarmament, not as the first case for a new American doctrine involving the pre-emptive use of force."


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/10/politics/10IRAQ.html?ex=1074920400&en=d3b91dfa96cba16c&ei=5070


All efforts to stifle Bush's manufactured mandate to conquer were rejected by the president and his Bush league. Bush pushed past the mandate of Congress, the American people, and the world community and invaded.

That's where, in the public debate we effectively get to 'Bush lied'. Bush lied to Congress, the American people, and the international community in his reckless rush to war.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Exactly.
But it's more fun into deluding oneself that Kerry/Edwards were cheerleaders for this war.

Anyone who really knows John Kerry's record understands the utter bullshit of spreading this meme.
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zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. Political memories are short, but they're not that short.
As to the wants of the constituents, on matters having the magnitude of war and peace, the buck stops with one's own conscience, not with the latest poll numbers. As to congress being lied to, it was more a pattern of deception than outright lies, i.e. "The British have learned..." etc. The thing is, the deception, exaggeration, and distortion were so completely transparent that a child could have seen through it, hence the frequent 'naked emperor' references at the time. It was palpable how badly the administration wanted this war and how determined they were to have it, no matter what the facts were. And yet apparently very few members of congress were the least bit suspicious; they paid no attention to the steady stream of evidence countering the adminstration's claims, coming from credible sources in all directions. They were satisfied with offers of proof by assertion, i.e. administration statements such as "We 'know' Sadaam has x,y, and z," or such flimsy logic as "If" Sadaam had x,y, or z he 'could' do this or that, neverminding the lack of evidence that Sadaam *did* have x,y, or z or *would* do this or that; they were willfully oblivious to the administration's repeatedly taking a glass half empty and presenting it as completely full, when it come to intelligence reports about sadaam's WMDs. This was not simply a case of congress being lied to; it was a case of congress (most of it) being complicit in that lie. John Kerry, of all people, should have seen and smelled this con job from a mile away. I suspect that he might have spotted it, had he not been preoccupied with positioning himself for his upcoming presidential campaign.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Some consider this justifying the war but I really feel we were
dealing with such a group of crazies in the White House that they would have caused SOME event to take us to war regardless.

I'll take John Kerry's long liberal record on the chance that he will remain somewhat true to it over anyone's new found liberality any day.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?
EXCERPTS FROM JOHN KERRY'S TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971

...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.


...In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart....

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone on peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Vietcong, North Vietnamese, or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how money from American taxes was used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, as blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs as well as by search and destroy missions, as well as by Vietcong terrorism, and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the U.S. falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings," with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater or let us say a non-third-world people theater, and so we watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the high for the reoccupation by the North Vietnamese because we watched pride allow the most unimportant of battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point. And so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 881's and Fire Base 6's and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese....

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doen'st have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations, and if you read carefully the President's last speech to the people of this country, you can see that he says and says clearly:

But the issue, gentlemen, the issue is communism, and the question is whether or not we will leave that country to the Communists or whether or not we will try to give it hope to be a free people.

But the point is they are not a free people now under us. They are not a free people, and we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now....

We are asking here in Washington for some action, action from the Congress of the United States of America which as the power to raise and maintain armies, and which by the Constitution also has the power to declare war.

We have come here, not to the President, because we believe that this body can be responsive to the will of the people, and we believe that the will of the people says that we should be out of Vietnam now....

We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric, and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded.

The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching begin them in the sun in this country....




...It is my opinion that the United States is still reacting in very much the 1945 mood and postwar cold-war period when we reacted to the forces which were at work in World War II and came out of it with this paranoia about the Russians and how the world was going to be divided up between the super powers, and the foreign policy of John Foster Dulles which was responsible for the created of the SEATO treaty, which was, in fact, a direct reaction to this so-called Communist monolith. And I think we are reacting under cold-war precepts which are no longer applicable.

I say that because so long as we have the kind of strike force we have, and I am not party to the secret statistics which you gentlemen have here, but as long as we have the ones which we of the public know we have, I think we have a strike force of such capability and I think we have a strike force simply in our Polaris submarines, in the 62 or some Polaris submarines, which are constantly roaming around under the sea. And I know as a Navy man that underwater detection is the hardest kind in the world, and they have not perfected it, that we have the ability to destroy the human race. Why do we have to, therefore, consider and keep considering threats?

At any time that an actual threat is posed to this country or to the security and freedom I will be one of the first people to pick up a gun and defend it, but right now we are reacting with paranoia t this question of peace and the people taking over the world. I think if were are ever going to get down to the question of dropping those bombs most of us in my generation simply don't want to be alive afterwards because of the kind of world that it would be with mutations and the genetic probabilities of freaks and everything else.

Therefore, I think it is ridiculous to assume we have to play this power game based on total warfare. I think there will be guerrilla wars and I think we must have a capability to fight those. And we may have to fight them somewhere based on legitimate threats, but we must learn, in this country, how to define those threats and that is what I would say to the question of world peace. I think it is bogus, totally artificial. There is no threat. The Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands....


...I don't want to get into the game of saying I represent everybody over there, but let me try to say as straightforwardly as I can, we had an advertisement, ran full page, to show you what the troops read. It ran in Playboy and the response to it within two and a half weeks from Vietnam was 1,200 members. We received initially about 50 to 80 letters a day from troops arriving at our New York office. Some of these letters -- and I wanted to bring some down, I didn't know we were going to be testifying here and I can make them available to you -- are very, very moving, some of them written by hospital corpsmen on things, on casualty report sheets which say, you know, "Get us out of here." "You are the only hope he have got." "You have got to get us back; it is crazy." We received recently 80 members of the 101st Airborne signed up in one letter. Forty members from a helicopter assault squadron, crash and rescue mission signed up in another one.

I think they are expressing, some of these troops, solidarity with us, right now by wearing black arm bands and Vietnam Veterans Against the War buttons. They want to come out and I think they are looking at the people who want to try to get them out as a help.

However, I do recognize there are some men who are in the military for life. The job in the military is to fight wars. When they have a war to fight, they are just as happy in a sense, and I am sure that these men feel they are being stabbed in the back. But, at the same time, I think to most of them the realization of the emptiness, the hollowness, the absurdity of Vietnam has finally hit home, and I feel is they did come home the recrimination would certainly not come from the right, from the military. I don't think there would be that problem....



...You see the mind is changing over there and a search and destroy mission is a search and avoid mission, and troops don't -- you know, like that revolt that took place that was mentioned in the New York Times when they refused to go in after a piece of dead machinery, because it doesn't have any value. They are making their own judgments.

There is a GI movement in this country now as well as over there, and soon these people, these men, who are prescribing wars for these young men to fight are going to find out they are going to have to find some other men to fight them because we are going to change prescriptions. They are going to have to change doctors, because we are not going to fight for them. that is what they are going to realize. There is now a more militant attitude even within the military itself....

John Kerry, 4/22/71





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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!More words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Votes count!!
Dean '04...
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. very wordy don't you think
and I prefer this image of his Lordship

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Metrix Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. You can boil down everything Howard Dean says into five words
"My dad is so stupid."

Maybe Howard reminds you of a smurf.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Senator Kerry's empathy half-life
OCTOBER 11, 2002, EXCERPTS FROM JOHN KERRY'S VOTE ON TAKING THE COUNTRY TO WAR AGAINST IRAQ:

Yea.

Where was the empathy for the soldiers, civilians and their families, now, Senator Kerry?

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
http://www.iraqbodycount.net
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Orwell would be facinated by the twisting of Sen. Kerry's words
and actions by his opponents on this issue of the IWR.

Now some would have us believe that Sen. Kerry is a warmonger. They would have us believe that the liberal senator from Massachusets who is vigorously defended and supported by the duke of the party, Ted Kennedy, is a warmonger.

I always thought it was odd that Kennedy, who voted against the IWR, supports Kerry who voted for it.

But Tom Harkin, who voted for the IWR, is for Dean.

Kinda makes all of this vitriol over who voted for the IWR silly. Dean doesn't present Harkin as a warmonger because of his vote. Kennedy doesn't present Kerry as a warmonger because of his IWR vote. Clark doesn't bash Kerry for his vote.

Only on DU do we ignore these anomalies in our debate. We push on. Water's deep, but we push on.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Warmonger? Now come on...
No one's calling anyone a warmonger, 'cepting the respondent; and, speaking for myself, I'm not particularly concerned about anyone else's IWR vote at present. Senator Kerry's vote only concerns me because he proclaims loudly his empathy for the soldier, and decries soldiers sent into battle due to decisions "being made to protect those in positions of authority in Washington." (link)

I simply wonder what happened to his empathy for those few minutes surrounding his "yea" vote on the IWR.

As for his speech on the Senate floor, though it does call out for nearly all the things which he declares on the campaign trail, none of them are required by the IWR -- which pretty much granted Bush the right to go to war if he feels the US is threatened and Iraq is linked to terrorists (of any flavor).

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. John Kerry's words of empathy
TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR
October 9, 2002
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

Obviously, with respect to an issue that might take Americans to war, we deserve time, and there is no more important debate to be had on the floor of the Senate. It is in the greatest traditions of this institution, and I am proud to take part in that debate now.

This is a debate that should be conducted without regard to parties, to politics, to labels. It is a debate that has to come from the gut of each and every Member, and I am confident that it does. I know for Senator Hagel, Senator McCain, and myself, when we pick up the newspapers and read about the residuals of the Vietnam war, there is a particular sensitivity because I do not think any of us feel a residual with respect to the choices we are making now.


I know for myself back in that period of time, even as I protested the war, I wrote that if my Nation was again threatened and Americans made the decision we needed to defend ourselves, I would be among the first to put on a uniform again and go and do that.

We are facing a very different world today than we have ever faced before. September 11 changed a lot, but other things have changed: Globalization, technology, a smaller planet, the difficulties of radical fundamentalism, the crosscurrents of religion and politics. We are living in an age where the dangers are different and they require a different response, different thinking, and different approaches than we have applied in the past.



Most importantly, it is a time when international institutions must rise to the occasion and seek new authority and a new measure of respect.

In approaching the question of this resolution, I wish the timing were different. I wish for the sake of the country we were not here now at this moment. There are legitimate questions about that timing. But none of the underlying realities of the threat, none of the underlying realities of the choices we face are altered because they are, in fact, the same as they were in 1991 when we discovered those weapons when the teams went in, and in 1998 when the teams were kicked out.

With respect to Saddam Hussein and the threat he presents, we must ask ourselves a simple question: Why? Why is Saddam Hussein pursuing weapons that most nations have agreed to limit or give up? Why is Saddam Hussein guilty of breaking his own cease-fire agreement with the international community? Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try, and responsible nations that have them attempt to limit their potential for disaster? Why did Saddam Hussein threaten and provoke? Why does he develop missiles that exceed allowable limits? Why did Saddam Hussein lie and deceive the inspection teams previously? Why did Saddam Hussein not account for all of the weapons of mass destruction which UNSCOM identified? Why is he seeking to develop unmanned airborne vehicles for delivery of biological agents?

Does he do all of these things because he wants to live by international standards of behavior? Because he respects international law? Because he is a nice guy underneath it all and the world should trust him?

It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. It is the total of all of these acts that provided the foundation for the world's determination in 1991 at the end of the gulf war that Saddam Hussein must: unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless underinternational supervision of his chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems... unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon-usable material.

Saddam Hussein signed that agreement. Saddam Hussein is in office today because of that agreement. It is the only reason he survived in 1991. In 1991, the world collectively made a judgment that this man should not have weapons of mass destruction. And we are here today in the year 2002 with an uninspected 4-year interval during which time we know through intelligence he not only has kept them, but he continues to grow them.

I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons.

He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation.

The Senate worked to urge action in early 1998. I joined with Senator McCain, Senator Hagel, and other Senators, in a resolution urging the President to "take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end his weapons of mass destruction program." That was 1998 that we thought we needed a more serious response.

Later in the year, Congress enacted legislation declaring Iraq in material, unacceptable breach of its disarmament obligations and urging the President to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance. In fact, had we done so, President Bush could well have taken his office, backed by our sense of urgency about holding Saddam Hussein accountable and, with an international United Nations, backed a multilateral stamp of approval record on a clear demand for the disarmament of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. We could have had that and we would not be here debating this today. But the administration missed an opportunity 2 years ago and particularly a year ago after September 11. They regrettably, and even clumsily, complicated their own case. The events of September 11 created new understanding of the terrorist threat and the degree to which every nation is vulnerable. That understanding enabled the administration to form a broad and impressive coalition against terrorism. Had the administration tried then to capitalize on this unity of spirit to build a coalition to disarm Iraq, we would not be here in the pressing days before an election, late in this year, debating this now. The administration's decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.


By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration raised doubts about their bona fides on the most legitimate justification for war--that in the post-September 11 world the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable, and his refusal to allow U.N. inspectors to return was in blatant violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power. By casting about in an unfocused, undisciplined, overly public, internal debate for a rationale for war, the administration complicated their case, confused the American public, and compromised America's credibility in the eyes of the world community. By engaging in hasty war talk rather than focusing on the central issue of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the administration placed doubts in the minds of potential allies, particularly in the Middle East, where managing the Arab street is difficult at best.

Against this disarray, it is not surprising that tough questions began to be asked and critics began to emerge. Indeed over the course of the last 6 weeks some of the strongest and most thoughtful questioning of our Nation's Iraq policy has come from what some observers would say are unlikely sources: Senators like CHUCK HAGEL and DICK LUGAR, former Bush Administration national security experts including Brent Scowcroft and James Baker, and distinguished military voices including General Shalikashvili. They are asking the tough questions which must be answered before--and not after--you commit a nation to a course that may well lead to war. They know from their years of experience, whether on the battlefield as soldiers, in the Senate, or at the highest levels of public diplomacy, that you build the consent of the American people to sustain military confrontation by asking questions, not avoiding them. Criticism and questions do not reflect a lack of patriotism--they demonstrate the strength and core values of our American democracy.

It is love of country, and it is defined by defense of those policies that protect and defend our country. Writing in the New York Times in early September, I argued that the American people would never accept the legitimacy of this war or give their consent to it unless the administration first presented detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and proved that it had exhausted all other options to protect our national security. I laid out a series of steps that the administration must take for the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq--seek the advice and approval of Congress after laying out the evidence and making the case, and work with our allies to seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement while simultaneously offering Iraq a clear ultimatum: accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise and without condition.

Those of us who have offered questions and criticisms--and there are many in this body and beyond--can take heart in the fact that those questions and those criticisms have had an impact on the debate. They have changed how we may or may not deal with Iraq. The Bush administration began talking about Iraq by suggesting that congressional consultation and authorization for the use of force were not needed. Now they are consulting with Congress and seeking our authorization. The administration began this process walking down a path of unilateralism. Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies. The administration which once seemed entirely disengaged from the United Nations ultimately went to the United Nations and began building international consensus to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. The administration began this process suggesting that the United States might well go to war over Saddam Hussein's failure to return Kuwaiti property. Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

The administration began discussion of Iraq by almost belittling the importance of arms inspections. Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction. That is why arms inspections--and I believe ultimately Saddam's unwillingness to submit to fail-safe inspections--is absolutely critical in building international support for our case to the world. That is the way in which you make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

I am pleased that the Bush administration has recognized the wisdom of shifting its approach on Iraq. That shift has made it possible, in my judgment, for the Senate to move forward with greater unity, having asked and begun to answer the questions that best defend our troops and protect our national security. The Senate can now make a determination about this resolution and, in this historic vote, help put our country and the world on a course to begin to answer one fundamental question--not whether to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, but how.

I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out.

I have talked about that record. Iraq never fully accounted for the major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of the pre-Gulf war weapons of mass destruction program, nor did the Iraq regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons and production infrastructure.

He has continually failed to meet the obligations imposed by the international community on Iraq at the end of the Persian Gulf the Iraqi regime provide credible proof war to declare and destroy its weapons of mass destruction and delivery systems and to forego the development of nuclear weapons. during the 7 years of weapons inspections, the Iraqi regime repeatedly frustrated the work of the UNSCOM--Special Commission--inspectors, culminating in 1998 in their ouster. Even during the period of inspections, Iraq never fully accounted for major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of its pre-gulf war WMD programs, nor did the Iraqi regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons stockpiles and production infrastructure.

It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Intelligence reports show that Iraq has invested more heavily in its biological weapons programs over the 4 years, with the result that all key aspects of this program--R&D, production and weaponization--are active. Most elements of the program are larger and more advanced than they were before the gulf war. Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives which could bring them to the United States homeland. Since inspectors left, the Iraqi regime has energized its missile program, probably now consisting of a few dozen Scud-type missiles with ranges of 650 to 900 kilometers that could hit Israel, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies in the region. In addition, Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles UAVs, capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf.

Prior to the gulf war, Iraq had an advance nuclear weapons development program. Although UNSCOM and IAEA International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors learned much about Iraq's efforts in this area, Iraq has failed to provide complete information on all aspects of its program. Iraq has maintained its nuclear scientists and technicians as well as sufficient dual-use manufacturing capability to support a reconstituted nuclear weapons program. Iraqi defectors who once worked for Iraq's nuclear weapons establishment have reportedly told American officials that acquiring nuclear weapons is a top priority for Saddam Hussein's regime.

According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within 1 year.

Absent a foreign supplier, it might be longer. There is no question that Saddam Hussein represents a threat. I have heard even my colleagues who oppose the President's resolution say we have to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. They also say we have to force the inspections. And to force the inspections, you have to be prepared to use force. So the issue is not over the question of whether or not the threat is real, or whether or not people agree there is a threat. It is over what means we will take, and when, in order to try to eliminate it.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.


As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter. In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

That is why the enforcement mechanism through the United Nations and the reality of the potential of the use of force is so critical to achieve the protection of long-term interests, not just of the United States but of the world, to understand that the dynamic has changed, that we are living in a different status today, that we cannot sit by and be as complacent or even negligent about weapons of mass destruction and proliferation as we have been in the past.

The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and, obviously, as we have said, grow it. These weapons represent an unacceptable threat.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq, and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.


The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq. It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq. None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

In recent days, the administration has gone further. They are defining what "relevant" U.N. Security Council resolutions mean. When Secretary Powell testified before our committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, on September 26, he was asked what specific U.N. Security Council resolutions the United States would go to war to enforce. His response was clear: the resolutions dealing with weapons of mass destruction and the disarmament of Iraq. In fact, when asked about compliance with other U.N. resolutions which do not deal with weapons of mass destruction, the Secretary said: The President has not linked authority to go to war to any of those elements.

When asked why the resolution sent by the President to Congress requested authority to enforce all the resolutions with which Iraq had not complied, the Secretary told the committee: That's the way the resolution is currently worded, but we all know, I think, that the major problem, the offense, what the President is focused on and the danger to us and to the world are the weapons of mass destruction.

In his speech on Monday night, President Bush confirmed what Secretary Powell told the committee. In the clearest presentation to date, the President laid out a strong, comprehensive, and compelling argument why Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are a threat to the United States and the international community. The President said: "Saddam Hussein must disarm himself, or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him."

This statement left no doubt that the casus belli for the United States will be Iraq's failure to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.

I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

The President has challenged the United Nations, as he should, and as all of us in the Senate should, to enforce its own resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq. And his administration is now working aggressively with the Perm 5 members on the Security Council to reach a consensus. As he told the American people Monday night: "America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm."



And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement. I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.


When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means "America speaks with one voice."

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq, and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions.

The definition of purpose circumscribes the authority given to the President to the use of force to disarm Iraq because only Iraq's weapons of mass destruction meet the two criteria laid out in this resolution.

Congressional action on this resolution is not the end of our national debate on how best to disarm Iraq. Nor does it mean we have exhausted all of our peaceful options to achieve this goal. There is much more to be done. The administration must continue its efforts to build support at the United Nations for a new, unfettered, unconditional weapons inspection regime. If we can eliminate the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction through inspections, whenever, wherever, and however we want them, including in palaces--and I am highly skeptical, given the full record, given their past practices, that we can necessarily achieve that--then we have an obligation to try that as the first course of action before we expend American lives in any further effort.

American success in the Persian Gulf war was enhanced by the creation of an international coalition. Our coalition partners picked up the overwhelming burden of the cost of that war. It is imperative that the administration continue to work to multilateralize the current effort against Iraq. If the administration's initiatives at the United Nations are real and sincere, other nations are more likely to invest, to stand behind our efforts to force Iraq to disarm, be it through a new, rigorous, no-nonsense program of inspection, or if necessary, through the use of force. That is the best way to proceed.

The United States, without question, has the military power to enter this conflict unilaterally. But we do need friends. We need logistical support such as bases, command and control centers, overflight rights from allies in the region. And most importantly, we need to be able to successfully wage the war on terror simultaneously. That war on terror depends more than anything else on the sharing of intelligence. That sharing of intelligence depends more than anything else on the cooperation of countries in the region. If we disrupt that, we could disrupt the possibilities of the capacity of that war to be most effectively waged.

I believe the support from the region will come only if they are convinced of the credibility of our arguments and the legitimacy of our mission. The United Nations never has veto power over any measure the United States needs to take to protect our national security. But it is in our interest to try to act with our allies, if at all possible. And that should be because the burden of eliminating the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction should not be ours alone. It should not be the American people's alone.

If in the end these efforts fail, and if in the end we are at war, we will have an obligation, ultimately, to the Iraqi people with whom we are not at war. This is a war against a regime, mostly one man. So other nations in the region and all of us will need to help create an Iraq that is a place and a force for stability and openness in the region. That effort is going to be long term, costly, and not without difficulty, given Iraq's ethnic and religious divisions and history of domestic turbulence. In Afghanistan, the administration has given more lipservice than resources to the rebuilding effort. We cannot allow that to happen in Iraq, and we must be prepared to stay the course over however many years it takes to do it right.

The challenge is great: An administration which made nation building a dirty word needs to develop a comprehensive, Marshall-type plan, if it will meet the challenge. The President needs to give the American people a fairer and fuller, clearer understanding of the magnitude and long-term financial cost of that effort.

The international community's support will be critical because we will not be able to rebuild Iraq singlehandedly. We will lack the credibility and the expertise and the capacity. It is clear the Senate is about to give the President the authority he has requested sometime in the next days. Whether the President will have to use that authority depends ultimately on Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.

He is the dictator who can end the stalemate simply by following the terms of the agreement which left him in power.

By standing with the President, Congress would demonstrate our Nation is united in its determination to take away that arsenal, and we are affirming the President's right and responsibility to keep the American people safe. One of the lessons I learned from fighting in a very different war, at a different time, is we need the consent of the American people for our mission to be legitimate and sustainable. I do know what it means, as does Senator Hagel, to fight in a war where that consent is lost, where allies are in short supply, where conditions are hostile, and the mission is ill-defined. That is why I believe so strongly before one American soldier steps foot on Iraqi soil, the American people must understand completely its urgency. They need to know we put our country in the position of ultimate strength and that we have no options, short of war, to eliminate a threat we could not tolerate.

I believe the work we have begun in this Senate, by offering questions, and not blind acquiescence, has helped put our Nation on a responsible course. It has succeeded, certainly, in putting Saddam Hussein on notice that he will be held accountable; but it also has put the administration on notice we will hold them accountable for the means by which we do this.

It is through constant questioning we will stay the course, and that is a course that will ultimately defend our troops and protect our national security.

President Kennedy faced a similar difficult challenge in the days of the Cuban missile crisis. He decided not to proceed, I might add, preemptively. He decided to show the evidence and proceeded through the international institutions. He said at the time:

"The path we have chosen is full of hazards, as all paths are... The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission."

So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations--an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create--to simply be ignored by this dictator.

I yield the floor.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Lots of words, negated by one "Yea" vote
Look, Kerry could have said all sorts of things in his speech on the Senate floor, but all that matters is that the legal document he signed onto did NOT require anything of Bush, other than that Bush feel that diplomacy was no longer viable and that Iraq was tied to terrorism. It did not even require that Bush go to the UN; it merely "supported" Bush going to the UN.

If Kerry truly wanted all those things that he declared in his speech, then he should have voted "nay!" -- 'cause the resolution he supported doesn't mention 'em.

He's a lawyer. Next time, he needs to read what he's signing; 'cause last time, he signed onto letting Bush go to war at his sole discretion.

Ok, so I've read the IWR again; Kerry authorized war

One interesting statement to take from Senator Kerry's floor speech, though:
If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.
Has Senator Kerry initiated or supported any resolutions condemning President Bush's unilateral, preemptive war against a nation that posed no imminent threat? And did he do so vigorously?

Seriously, I'm not aware of *any* attempts at congressional declarations deriding Bush for his unilateral action. Are you?
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. How many more must die to further Kerry's ambitions?
This makes me sick.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Take a good hard look at Biden-Lugar and how Rove will twist up Dean
on his FAKE antiwar stand.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's disgusting and sad that some would use Vietnam to push their
interpretation of John Kerry's IWR vote.

I don't view his support for the IWR as a vote for war. Neither does John Kerry. He said so before, during, and after the vote.


The power to commit forces was invested in loopholes in the WPA: The War Powers Act. The same authority that presidents have used for decades to commit forces for 60 days without congressional approval.

Bush wanted the cover of Congress. Save the provisions that Sen. Kerry and others had included about war as a last resort, Democrat's imput on that bill - which sought to restrain Bush and send him back to the U.N. - was reduced to a no vote. The bill doesn't mandate an immediate rush to invade Iraq. It actually mandates against that. Bush disregarded the intent of Congress, the American people, and the international community in his reckless rush to invasion and occupation.

Here's what Sen. kerry said about his vote and Bush's predisposed plan to invade and occupy:


The Massachusetts senator has stood by his vote last fall for the Iraq resolution in the face of criticism from anti-war Democrats and rival Howard Dean, a former Vermont governor who opposed the U.S.-led war. Kerry qualified his support Monday, saying it was the correct vote "based on the information that we were given."

"The president promised to build the international coalition, to do this as a matter of last resort, to go through the United Nations process and respect it," he said. "And in the end, it is clear now that he didn't do that sufficiently. And I think in that regard, the American people were let down."

Kerry said he voted for the resolution with the understanding that the administration would build an international coalition before attacking Saddam Hussein's forces.

"It seems quite clear to me that the president circumvented that process, shortchanged it and did not give full meaning to the words 'last resort,"' Kerry said in a 20-minute conference call with reporters.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/07/21/national1525EDT0608.DTL


"He talked about keeping Americans safe, but has too often practiced a blustering unilateralism that is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. He talked about holding Saddam Hussein accountable, but has too often ignored opportunities to unify the world against this brutal dictator." 01/28/2003 Response to President Bush's State of the Union http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003144&keyword=&phrase=&contain=


"I firmly believe that Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who must be disarmed. But I also believe that a heavy-handed approach will leave us to carry the burden almost alone. That's why I was one of the first Democrats to speak up and urge President Bush to go to the United Nations - because even a country as great as the United States needs some friends in this world.

The President says that war should be a last resort. He says it; I mean it -- because I know the cost of war. I have seen it with my own eyes. If I am commander in chief, I won't just have the perspective that comes from sitting in the Situation Room. I'll have the perspective that comes from serving on the front lines. And I tell you this: the United States should never go to war because it wants to; it should go to war only because it has to."
03/14/2003 http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003617&keyword=&phrase=&contain=


I am here today to reject the narrow vision of those who would build walls to keep the world out, or who would prefer to strike out on our own instead of forging coalitions and step by step creating a new world of law and mutual security.

I believe the Bush Administration's blustering unilateralism is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. In practice, it has meant alienating our long-time friends and allies, alarming potential foes and spreading anti-Americanism around the world.

Too often they've forgotten that energetic global leadership is a strategic imperative for America, not a favor we do for other countries. Leading the world's most advanced democracies isn't mushy multilateralism—it amplifies America's voice and extends our reach. Working through global institutions doesn't tie our hands—it invests US aims with greater legitimacy and dampens the fear and resentment that our preponderant power sometimes inspires in others.

In a world growing more, not less interdependent, unilateralism is a formula for isolation and shrinking influence. As much as some in the White House may desire it, America can't opt out of a networked world. We can do better than we are doing today. And those who seek to lead have a duty to offer a clear vision of how we make Americans safer and make America more trusted and respected in the world. 01/23/2003
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003082&keyword=&phrase=&contain=


"I find myself angered, saddened and dismayed by the situation in which this nation finds itself tonight. As the world's sole superpower in an increasingly hostile and dangerous world, our government's obligation to protect the security of the United States and the law abiding nations of the world could not be more clear, particularly in the aftermath of September 11.

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us -- both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq -- decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration -- like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building -- a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush." Statement of Senator John Kerry Regarding President Bush's Announcement on Iraq 03/18/2003
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003667&keyword=&phrase=&contain=
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Great posts bigtree..........unfortunately, the Kerry bashers won't
bother reading what Kerry actually said. They don't want reality to invade their happy misconceptions of who Kerry is.

Thank God responsible Democrats are not creating similar sound bites that could be used against us in the GE. Makes me wonder about the motivations of some who try to use this vote to do in Kerry.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. how do you ask a man to die for a mistake (wmds any one) and before
you say he didnt know he hasnt apologized for it and kucinich knew and that throws off kerrys "grading curve"
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Read his floor statement. Bush is the one to apologize. He lied.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:47 PM by bigtree
BTW Rep. Kucinich didn't attend any security briefings. I think he can't. I think he refused to undergo the security clearance needed to attend.

edit: insert 'I think'
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. How did Kucinich know?
Is he God?

The WH was using CIA/DOI/OSP/NIE information to make their case. DK would have to disavow the institutional data presented at that time on the basis of a personal hunch. Hardly more than a crapshoot. True, after the fact, we know the intel was cooked....but who's responsible for that?

Personally, I believe in LIHOP/MIHOP. If the Dems had lined up solidly anti-war, I have no doubt an Iraqi-Al-Qaeda terrorist would have created an "event" in Boston or CLeveland, or even New York...thereby finishing the Democratic Party as an opposition force to the RNC. Martial law, causus belli to invade Iraq, no investigation, and a media label that paints all Democrats as "Saddam appeasers" would have made Bush dictator for life.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. So far, the primary voters don't care
75% of the voters in IA said they were antiwar, and Kerry got more of their votes than anyone else.

So please, keep pushing this. It worked so well for you in NH and IA
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. Kerry got almost no media scrutiny in IA and NH
Even now that he is the "frontrunner," the media have only barely scratched the surface on Kerry.

They're saving the big revelations until he wins the nomination. Then the voters will meet the real John Kerry. And, yes, they will care.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. Senator Byrd's judgment was sound; all pro-IWR votes were not.
...."I have listened closely to the president. I have questioned the members of his war cabinet. I have searched for that single piece of evidence that would convince me that the president must have in his hands, before the month is out, open-ended Congressional authorization to deliver an unprovoked attack on Iraq. I remain unconvinced. The president's case for an unprovoked attack is circumstantial at best. Saddam Hussein is a threat, but the threat is not so great that we must be stampeded to provide such authority to this president just weeks before an election."

"Why are we being hounded into action on a resolution that turns over to President Bush the Congress's Constitutional power to declare war? This resolution would authorize the president to use the military forces of this nation wherever, whenever and however he determines, and for as long as he determines, if he can somehow make a connection to Iraq. It is a blank check for the president to take whatever action he feels "is necessary and appropriate in order to defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq." This broad resolution underwrites, promotes and endorses the unprecedented Bush doctrine of preventive war and pre-emptive strikes — detailed in a recent publication, "National Security Strategy of the United States" — against any nation that the president, and the president alone, determines to be a threat."

...." Congress must not attempt to give away the authority to determine when war is to be declared. We must not allow any president to unleash the dogs of war at his own discretion and for an unlimited period of time."

...."We must not yield to this absurd pressure to act now, 27 days before an election that will determine the entire membership of the House of Representatives and that of a third of the Senate."

-------------------------

And some of you will remember, and lament all that has happened since this:

Byrd said his Washington, D.C. office received 50,000 e-mails and nearly 20,000 telephone calls during the past week.

"I want to thank all those people who took time to contact me. Their words have strengthened and heartened me. These are my heroes....

"The American people have a better understanding of the Constitution than the people they elected to represent them."


---------------
There was no justification for the War in Iraq, and Kerry's "reasoning" falls far short of its mark.





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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
27. How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a politician''s....
Cynical ambitions?

I find Kerry's words on the resolution unconvincing, self-serving, contradictory, and hypocritical.

He was brave and spoke the truth back in the Vietnam days.

He comes across today as just another obfuscating political hack.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. People who blame someone other than Bush for Bush's mistakes make me sad.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Kerry voted to give Bush the authority....
It is his war too, just like the Tonkin Gulf in 1964.

Byrd knew that. Kennedy knew that. Kerry knew that.

They voted no, Kerry voted yes.

He should be held accountable.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. The President has the authority under the Constitution and the War Powers
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 11:25 AM by Feanorcurufinwe
Act. He can go to war at any time. He could invade Chile today if he wanted.

Your post is inconsistent with the facts.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. KERRY VOTED FOR THE IRAQ WAR.
He voted to give Bush the constitutional "OK".....


When others voted NO, he voted YES...and NOTHING you can post here can change that FACT.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. POSTING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE YOU CORRECT
Sorry, but it is wrong to characterize it that way whether you put it in caps or not.

The President has the power to go to war at any moment against any country. This power is granted to him under the Constitution. Bush did not need the Iraq resolution to invade Iraq. The Iraq resolution required the President to send to Congress his determination that military force was necessary because peaceful means would not work. That determination was false and Bush did not follow the resolution.

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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
28. Could Vietnam win the White House?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1137459,00.html

It was March 13 1969, and the US army Green Beret was running out of breath after diving five times beneath the surface of the Bay Hap river, to escape Vietnamese sniper fire from its banks. From downriver, he heard a gunboat approach. A US navy lieutenant, who had already been hit in the arm, exposed himself to fire once more to haul the Green Beret over the bow and to safety.
Half a lifetime later, Jim Rassman, the erstwhile Green Beret, is a paunchy, retired police official who grows orchids for a hobby. Memories of that day are seared for ever in his brain. "He could have been shot and killed at any time, and so could I. So I figure I probably owe this man my life," he says.

More than 30 years later, Rassman had his chance to repay the debt. The navy man was John Kerry, one of the contenders for the Democratic presidential nomination, and Rassman may have saved his political career. The registered Republican has emerged from quiet retirement in Oregon to put himself at the Kerry campaign's disposal. Their tearful reunion earlier this month - their first meeting since Vietnam - has transformed Kerry's fortunes.

Two days after the two Vietnam veterans embraced at a campaign rally, the caucus goers of Iowa delivered a stunning victory to Kerry, confounding those who had declared his campaign dead. Two weeks later, the senator from Massachusetts is either the frontrunner or up there competing in all seven of the states holding their primaries today, and the pundits are now wondering if he is unstoppable.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Didn't the pundits think Dean "unstoppable" until...
1. There was a Stop Dean campaign conducted by other Dem candidates and
2. The media turned on him like a pack of wild dogs.

Gee, I wonder when this will play out with Kerry?

Vietnam has no damn business in this election.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Vietnam and the anti-war movement are Kerry's defining moments...
He has been more or less a big zero for the past ten years or so....


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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. The Vietnam war defined a generation. Those who fought

and those who did not had lives that were marked by all of the politics and death that surrounded that conflict. I can envision a national catharsis of healing and reunification for those who sought but never felt that reconciliation as they separated their lives from their experience there. I don't think we have ever come to grips with the question posed by at that time by John Kerry, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

There is a humility lacking sometimes in the exercise of our awesome military power that was to be guileless in its unassailable defenses.

I think John Kerry could more than stand for the contradictions of that generation regarding the war, and we have an opportunity to rightfully, and respectfully acknowledge that, and possibly further heal that societal tear.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
39. How do you ask Kerry to stop exploiting the Vietnam War?
:grr:
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. By nominating someone else. Good luck.
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. Let's reword that, shall we?
"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Iraq?

How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

There. That's better.

How DO you ask that, Kerry? By voting "yes?"

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