Hillary supporters: make your case to us here

[Ken Burch]

OK, you guys think DU is unfair to her. You think we should all love her as much as you do, or at least learn to remember our place.

Here's your chance.

Tell us why

1)We shouldn't think she's right-wing.
2)We shouldn't think she's unelectable.
3)We shouldn't be uncomfortable with a country run by dueling dynasties.
4)We shouldn't ask anything from Hillary in exchange for our support(presumably you think the way Kerry ran the last convention wasn't repressive and antidemocratic enough).
5)We shouldn't regard supporting Hillary as a complete abandonment of our principles.

We're listening. I'll ask progressive and pro-democracy types to hold their posts for awhile.

[Charlie Brown]

1. She did oppose Roberts

That's more than can be said for Feingold and Leahy.

[Massacure]

2. If she wins the primary, would you rather take perhaps Condoleza Rice?

[Pam-Moby]

4. Condoleza Lice, not a chance. I would vote in my 8 lb shi zu first.

[Ken Burch]

7. Of course not.

I'm talking about what happens before the primaries. A lot of Hillary people act as if the idea
of actually making a case for their candidate among Democratic voters is beneath their dignity and
hers.

They seem to think we are obligated to simply fall in line with whatever they impose.
I'm asking, why should we?

Do Hillary people oppose democracy and open debate?

[Hekate]

3. What dynasty?! Clinton pulled himself up by his bootstraps & Bush is...

...the heir to billions, with a New England "pedigree" as long as your arm.

Hillary's family was a lot better off than Bill's, but still no comparison with the Bushes, Walkers, et al.

Sheesh, at least get that important detail right.

Hekate

[Ken Burch]

8. When your families are trading off the presidency

humble origins or not are irrelevant. Bill and Hillary naturally take the view of the
wealthy against the working class and the poor, now that they've become wealthy.
They're just as much part of the right-wing establishment at the Bushes.
The Bill-Bush the First vaudeville partnership proves that.

[AJH032]

24. oh please

Bill and Hillary naturally take the view of the wealthy against the poor? Is that why Clinton raised taxes on the rich and expanded tax credit programs for the poor?

The mere fact that Bill Clinton raised the top income tax rate AND corporate tax rate separates him very much from the right-wing establishment. I'm not saying he's the most liberal Democrat in the world, but to group him with the Bushes is pure insanity.

[Ken Burch]

29. Putting most of his political energy to work pushing NAFTA through

on the terms Bush negotiated is what I'd call taking the side of the rich against the workers and the poor.

Nobody still thinks that "rising tide" is going to lift all the boats. The yachts and the cruise ships maybe, but not the rest of the boats.

[Hekate]

16. Thank you Sen Clinton for your service to country & loyalty to party!

Someone needs to say it, instead of just sniping away.

We're fighting for the soul of the country -- & Hillary's not the problem.

If we keep chewing on fellow Dems for insufficient ideological purity all we're going to get out of it is to be pushed ever further to the fringes ourselves. "Don't let the perfect drive out the good" is an adage we would do well to remember.

Liberals have certain basic principles -- what the conservatives call "values". The Dem party is in the process of re-framing what those values are so we can communicate them better, and we should be part of that process.

Hillary Clinton is not what's wrong with the Democratic Party. She has a job to do as Senator from New York state, and I hope she keeps doing it for decades to come, because it sounds like her constituents think she's performing well.

I don't fret over her qualifications for President for the same reason I never bothered to fret over Ted Kennedy's 30 years ago -- it ain't gonna happen. It doesn't matter how qualified she is (and she is certainly head and shoulders above the current occupant of the WH) Hillary Clinton is such a lightning rod for all the nastiness of the wingnuts that imho she is unelectable.

It's not even her fault. She was singled out by Limbaugh, Gingrich, and every other RW slimeball in creation, for being President Bill Clinton's wife and for having the nerveless gall to attempt to use her abundant talents and intelligence to work on national health care legislation. Before she became First Lady, Hillary Clinton was one of the foremost family-law attorneys in the country in the area of children's rights. She is AS qualified as anyone else in Washington DC, and MORE qualified than many, to do anything she decides to do, including run for President.

DUers pick on Laura Bush for her taste in pantsuits -- the RW slimed Hillary for having the brains, talent, and guts to be someone other than Bill's little wifey. I always figured that it said something positive about Bill that he chose a woman of Hillary's caliber to be his life's partner.

She still reflects well on him, but those on the left who disagree with some of her decisions bitterly denounce her in terms that would do the right wing proud. The extreme criticism does nothing positive and is akin to eating our own alive -- it doesn't reflect well on us.

Hekate

[cally]

48. "Don't let the perfect drive out the good"

That's what I believe, also. I have many disagreements with Hillary Clinton. She has not stood up for us like she should have and her acquiescance to the neocons on Iraq is despicable. Let alone her vote on the bankruptcy bill. Still, she has voted correctly on many issues and I do admire her strength. I will support her if she is our nominee but there are about 10 leading Democrats I would prefer.

I often wonder how a woman would first get elected as President. Many of the trailblazing female politicians got their position once their husbands (sometimes father) left the position. Unfortunately, this is a common route to political office for women. It doesn't surprise me that the possibly first strong female contender for the WH is the wife of a former President.

[DURHAM D]

5. Tell us why - anyone should respond to you.

Clearly you are bored on a Friday night - go out - meet friends - have a good time - get laid.

Make love not war.

[Ken Burch]

6. Nobody is obligated to respond to me.

Why should you care if I ask for responses?

The whole point of DU is to start discussions and SEEK responses.
Does this bother you for some reason.
Go out and get laid YOURSELF, friend.

[SaveElmer]

9. Had you asked your questions in a more objective tone...

Many of us would be glad to respond...

However, as it is clear from the nature and tone of your questions you are not looking for a genuine dialog on the question, but merely another way of attacking her.

[Ken Burch]

10. Perhaps my tone might be more "objective"

If the tone from Hillary people hadn't been so consistently
arrogant and snide(we must nominate Hillary, and YOU must
ask nothing from her).

Still, you people could actually try engaging us as equals and
persuade us of the Senator's worthiness, rather than simply demanding that
we fall in line like good obedient peasants.

It would be the democratic and Democratic thing to do.

Make your case.

[SaveElmer]

11. More proof that you do not want a dialog...

You want to bash...there is enough of that here...

If you are truly interested, many of us have enumerated her qualifications, and debunked the myths you have so "eloquently" enumerated yet again, that a few simple searches of the many Hillary bashing threads will reveal the answers you are looking for.

[Ken Burch]

12. What "Myths"?

nt

[SaveElmer]

13. Here....

Numbers 1 through 5


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2354120

[Ken Burch]

22. I'm not sure those ARE myths.

I don't know that it's a myth that Hillary would be unelectable. My fear on that is, if she's nominated, all the old smears(Vince Foster, Whitewater, the Buddhist Temple, etc)would be taken out of mothballs and, since she doesn't have Bill's charisma, would work.

I don't know that it's a myth that Hillary is right-wing. The two terms of Bill were Republicanism in Democratic clothing, and I can't see any reason to think that Hillary would be one inch to the left of Bill if elected. You would agree, I hope, that it wouldn't be worth electing her if she wasn't to Bill's left, of if(God forbid)she turned out to be to his right.

I have a sinking feeling that, if Hillary is nominated and loses, we of the progressive wing of the party, who of course would be out in the cold under a Hillary presidency, will be blamed and the party will lurch even FURTHER right. And this will lead to the next Nader.

This is what progressives desperately fight to avoid.

[AZBlue]

43. Exactly.

These statements/"questions" in the OP are so slanted and biased there's no way to respond to them. You'd have to first go back and re-frame the questions to have a real conversation or debate and then you're not responding to the OP, so what's the point? Sorry, I'm not biting.

[sirjohn]

14. She's got much bigger nads, primarily when it suits her

purposes, and not hung up on ideology. Seriously, I think we need someone who is practical in winning elections. So she keeps her ideology under wraps, we know it's there. She's electable. Will bring out the female vote like no man we have in the on-deck circle now. We need a strong leader, but not like Dean, who was too strong - he blew up prematurely.

[NativeTexan]

15. Moving to the middle.....

...does not make her "right-wing". She learned well from Bill. Plus, it is a move that every national figure has to do when running for president. You can't win an election by campaigning to the extreme....either direction! How they govern, is rarely like they campaign. But, I repeat, you cannot win from the extremes.

Dualing dynasties......hell ours is better than THEIRS!

Ask for something in exchange for support? I have watched Hillary enough to feel very comfortable that she is entirely about the principles of the Democratic Party... and she has one of the greatest presidents in U.S. history as a spouse, to use as a guide.

And ELECTABLE? Why do you think the neo-cons jump on her at every chance? They KNOW they can't beat her. They are scared to death of her, because they know that after a second "Bush", that if Hillary gets the nomination, the country is going to be looking back to the "good ole days" of prosperity for the underclasses....the rich paying their fair share....sensible foreign policy.....and intelligence behind the podium during presidential speeches!

[sirjohn]

17. I don't understand why she's such a polarizing person

Very intelligent and well-spoken woman.

[AntiCoup2K4]

18. Middle of WHAT, exactly?

Do you realize that the positions Hillary advocates NOW, as a DLC candidate are to the right of the positions she advocated as a Goldwater campaign worker in 1964.

Remember the ads used aginst Goldwater? People were scared to death that his loony right wing ass would get us all killed in a nuclear war. PNAC's DLC division known as PPI would not only embrace the idea of a global nuclear war, they would try to paint it as "progressive".

In order for this country to truly get back to the MIDDLE of anything, we'd need 8 years of Dennis Kucinich followed by 8 years of Barbara Boxer followed by 8 years of Cynthia McKinney, and then maybe we would be about halfway there. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen immediately after 8 years of unelected fascists spewing hatred and fear. But we can and WILL do a damn sight better than an AIPAC pandering DLC sellout like Hillary.

[NativeTexan]

19. I understand, but....

...life in general has moved somewhat to the right in the last 40 years. Goldwater was a REAL conservative that is true. But he would be pushed out of his own party toward the Dems if he was serving today!

The middle will always be what is centrist to the extremes. But I DO agree that the left extreme, needs to pull harder for a while to re-calibrate the whole political spectrum.

But unless the extreme left gets out to vote....which they have been doing in smaller and smaller numbers over the past 30 years.....it can't happen, and the right will continue to define what the parameters are.

[Ken Burch]

21. Part of the problem is,

Democrats, since 1976, have moved much more to the middle than Republicans. When's the last time you saw a Republican presidential nominee display ANY centrism?

[Ken Burch]

20. Ok, that's at least sort of a case.

Thanks for not responding solely with insults and arrogance, as some of your fellow DLC'ers do.

[spaniard]

23. Another Ken Burch "make your case" post

This one was a classic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=296&topic_id=4585&mesg_id=4585

[Ken Burch]

26. I don't see why you would mock it.

I raising a valid point. If you on the right wing of the party are
going to demand that we let you run things, we at least have the
right to ask why.

There is nothing that justifies the arrogance the right wing of the
party shows towards progressives. After three straight defeats(2000, 2002, 2004)
you have been humbled by reality. You need to share the party with US if it is
ever to win again.

[AZBlue]

44. Some people on DU just want to fight and bitch and moan

and then use the cover-up of "we just want discussion and debate." Their definitions of those words don't seem to match anyone else's.

You learn to just ignore it. It's not worth the time.

[Jacobin]

25. Ah, the Pro=Hillary faction is really being persuasive, so far

Upthread is a real yawner, as expected

[Ken Burch]

27. That's partly my point. They don't think they HAVE to be persuasive.

They think we should simply bow to their goddess.

[election_2004]

28. This thread is pointless....

The Hillaristas have already made it clear that they're going to ride the wave of pro-Hillary "support" being orchestrated by the corporate media whores, and then proceed to bully any non-conservative person into pulling the lever for their queen before a single Democratic state primary is even held.

To hell with attaining & keeping control of the U.S. House and U.S. Senate...

[alfredo]

30. First you must not take to heart the positions she is taking

now. She is inoculating herself for future campaigns.

She is a very smart politician, and well respected throughout the world.

She is tough enough, she has proven that over and over again.

She will have the best advisor close at hand.

[IndianaGreen]

31. You are right, we shouldn't believe a damn word she says

and the Clintons are not what America needs after the Bush dictatorship. We need someone to restore the Republic and reverse what Bush has done, not someone to tell us how great Blair was, and how good Poppy Bush is.

[election_2004]

32. Apparently, the Hillaristas don't care about regaining Congress....

Because any suggestion that Hillary will help Democrats make Congressional gains in 2008 is simply a pipe dream.

[Ken Burch]

36. Problem is, such "inoculations" don't work.

They don't stop the right wing attacks. And the "liberal" or "moderate" politicians who "inoculate" themselves by taking right wing stands actually end up sticking with those positions once in office.
Like Bill keeping the School of the Americas going when we all know the place is nothing but a torture academy.

[neverevergivein]

33. My biggest problem with Hilary

is that we have SO MANY better candidates to run. And the best, says he won't. (Dean)

[dsc]

34. I am undecided in the primaries but some answers

1) Hillary is solidly pro choice, voted against the bankrupcy bill, filibustered the judical nominees, voted against Roberts, Ashcroft, and will vote against Alito. She has a good enviromental record, voted against all of Bush's tax cuts, and has done good service in regards to equalizing 9/11 funds.

2) I will conceed she has some electability issues. Being a woman isn't helpful to her (I think the first woman President is much more likely to be a Republican) but she also has a strong base of support. Given the polarized state of the current electorate I don't think she is any less electable than anyone else off the start. She was supposedly unelectable in NY and now she is cruising toward a second term.

3) It isn't a dynasty when you rise to the top from the bottom of the heap. Hillary should be judged on her own merits not on her last name. That should be true both ways. She has been a good Senator and is a great fundraiser. On the minus side she hasn't been in elected public life that long and has baggage.

4) You can ask for what you wish. But I do think that you should be consistent. Whatever you demand of her you should demand of others.

5) Depends on what your principle are. If they include a clean enviroment, civil rights, competence and intergrity in government, and a host of other mainstream Democratic values then you shouldn't have a problem in this regard.

[Ken Burch]

35. As to your point 4, I ask nothing of Hillary that I don't ask of others.

I haven't let anyone else off the hook on those issues, just so you know.

[jonnyblitz]

37. i notice you don't mention the Iraq war, the one thing that effects

everything else. interesting.

[dsc]

38. I don't agree with her on the war

but I am not a single issue voter either.

[Ken Burch]

39. I guess I felt that was covered in my points about

Hillary's conservatism and supporting Hillary as an abandonment of principle. I should have been explicit about it.

Hillary, stop fudging about the war already. Nobody who still supports it is going to vote Democratic anyway.

[BigYawn]

40. All you anti-Hillary people, I have just one friggin advice.......

Do not paint yourself too far in to the corner against Hillary.
She IS the front runner at this point, and with big dog behind
her, will remain so through the primaries, and will be the
eventual nominee.

Y'all are free to work for any other democrat during the primaries,
but when your candidate loses to Hillary, be a good democrat and
vote for who ever the nominee will be in GE.

[Ken Burch]

42. I refer the court to Big Yawn's post above

as evidence of the attitude that provokes such resentment and hostility amongst DU'ers
and other progressives.

And I remind Big Yawn that it is that attitude that has now cause three straight
Democratic defeats(2000, 2002, 2004).

Want to try for 0-for4, big guy?

[AZBlue]

45. It's the people stating that they will vote for a republican instead of HC

should she win the Dem nom (or for a green, an independent, or not at all, which in '08 = voting for republicans) that provokes resentment and hostility among DU'ers.

[Ken Burch]

46. I think there aren't really many people like that.

There's a lot of DU'ers who object to the notion that the nomination is somehow Hillary's by divine right and that none of us have the right to ask anything of her because she and she alone is the source of wisdom, truth and electability. We object to the notion that it is somehow impertinent to treat her as just another candidate who must earn the support and trust of Democrats.

If Hillary supporters would at least start treating progressives with respect and as equals, they'd get a much better reception.

And, as to Greens, those people would still be Democrats if the DLC hadn't done everything it could to drive them away in the Nineties.

[AZBlue]

47. I don't know...I see a lot of posts here like that.

It does worry me but I'm hoping that when push comes to shove, they won't actually follow through on their threats.

I understand that not everyone wants her to be the nominee and I don't think she is the obvious choice - at this point, I don't think there is one. I was reading an article on Russ Feingold last night that had an excellent point: Dems often back an unknown dark horse late in the game, one that you wouldn't have predicted to be the front runner. We have this years elections to get through and then we'll see who actually wants to run and who makes a good showing.

No, she's definitely not the lone source of wisdom, truth and electibility - there are several good possibilities in my opinion and I'm going to wait and see what happens and what develops over the next year or two. I do like Hillary but she's also just a human being, just like everyone else. I'm not looking for a superhero and I'm afraid that anyone who is (not that you are, but I get that sense from some on DU) is going to be very disappointed because there just isn't one. I don't see anyone being perfect in any way. And I just don't want anyone to do something stupid out of spite come November 2008, something that in turn helps the Republican party.

I think the frustration over Hillary boils down to people not keeping an open mind on both sides, either for or against her. But, they are in reality a minority - it's just that they post something inflammatory and both "sides" get riled up and we're off to a flame war. We all need to remember to keep an open mind, that neither Hillary nor anyone else is an actual candidate yet, and anything could still happen.

[jumperto77]

41. The biggest problem is: War is the #1 issue by far

A Harris Pol made 5 months ago shows that the war is more important issue than Education and Health Care combined, and even than The Economy and Health Care combined.
And Hillary is supporting a war that is opposed by a majority of Americans.