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Mark Crispin Miller: Why Dems are in denial about the stolen election

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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:51 PM
Original message
Mark Crispin Miller: Why Dems are in denial about the stolen election
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 07:30 PM by Amaryllis
This is a transcript of Mark's November talk in Portland:

http://www.oregonvrc.org/SpeakerSeries1

He tells the story about his meeting with Kerry, and the wider implications.
I was there when he gave this talk and he was really on fire that day. There is good humor interspersed. Here is a taste (this starts just after he told the story of his meeting with Kerry):

I don’t make things up. In this world, these days, you don’t have to make things up. (Audience laughter.) Do you know what I mean? You can’t. It is impossible to keep track of reality. So I tell this story to make a few larger points. It is not about Kerry per se. And it is not about my personal pique, about being treated so disrespectfully. This is not a personal issue. It is not even a partisan issue. It is a civic issue. It is a civic issue of profound importance. And I tell the story about Kerry partly to make clear that this is not a left versus right, or Democrat versus Republican issue. In fact, on this issue, it’s really the people at risk because of the collusion of the two parties. I think the collusion is passive. Some people have said that they know, they have made a deal, but I think that is unlikely.

If someone has the evidence, I’ll look at the evidence. But I don’t think that it is necessary for there to be a deal, because this has happened before. When you have a resolved, well organized, highly disciplined fascistic movement of some kind, (audience applause) right. (Audience applause) Let’s hear it for Fascism. (Sarcastically...Loud audience applause.) Calm yourselves. (Laughter) And they have a tremendous amount of social power and media influence, and they manage to get the press on their side for various reasons, those who would resist this, but who aren’t all that zealous about it, are simply going to deny that there’s a problem. Now why do the Democrats refuse to face this issue? Does it make any sense? Their existence as a party is threatened. They will cease to be, if this Republican party, the Bushevic party, (audience laughter) the theocratic Republican party, has it’s way, there will be no more Democrats. Now, one of the reasons that Democrats refuse to look at this, or read the evidence, or listen to it, is just corruption. Because a lot of democrats are in fact republicans. And in places like Ohio, rural Ohio....maybe you’ve had Bob Fitrakis come here and speak? ...(audience confirms)...as he explains to me and he says in his writing, the democrats in rural Ohio are just as much a part of the status quo as the republicans. They are very close to the Republicans and they all serve at the pleasure of Ken Blackwell. So they all toe the line.

But aside from that there is just plain old denial. Kerry was describing denial to me. Dodd wouldn’t have gotten angry if this thought did not frighten him. Because the implications of what happened last year are quite frightening....quite frightening. It doesn’t make any difference how brilliant a campaign you run. It doesn’t make any difference how smart your TV ads are. It doesn’t make any difference what a stellar profile your candidate has. You could run Jesus Christ for President, ok? You’re not going to win. You’re not going to win because this is not a functioning Democracy. America is no longer a Democracy. The last three elections have been stolen.

This refusal to confront the implications of what is going down has to do with deeply rooted ideological assumptions that we all have. Like "it can’t happen here." That’s the very important one. Like this is "The city on the hill." This nation was claimed by God. And what has happened to other countries can’t happen here, can’t happen here. So however copious and solid the evidence you have that it has happened here, you can’t get anywhere. It’s fascinating. You’ve got a moment in which pretty much everyone now finally agrees that the Bush regime lied, or deluded itself and the rest of us, to get us into a major war that we are losing. That’s really not a good thing. And people will face that. And the press will say yes that seems to be true. You’ve got a moment at which the people will say: yes, they did deliberately conspire to out a CIA agent who was responsible for keeping us safe from weapons of mass destruction, and they did it for petty political reasons. The people struggling to deny this are having an ever harder time. We accept this. We accept that they had to know that the attack was coming on 9/11 and they, at best, did nothing about it. (Audience applause.) We also accept that in the face of one of the worst natural disasters in our modern history, they did nothing and they continue to do nothing. All of this we accept. Right? All of this we accept. All this the press will admit "Yeah that’s true." OK. Progressives, everybody snarling foaming at the mouth...Bush is wicked, terrible. But somehow there is this magic circle drawn around "The Election." "Oh no, they wouldn’t do that! They wouldn’t to that!" Well, that’s what they would do first of all. In fact, that’s what they did do! That’s why they’re there. (Applause)
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm reading "Fooled Again" right now. It's excellent.
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. It doesn't sound like Kerry really said the election was stolen
It sounds like he was humoring a fan or being a politician but it's nothing for anyone to hang their hat on.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes. Miller needs to reflect on the meaning of the title of
Solzhenitsin's book, The First Circle, and the principle underlying it.

In the pecking order, the significantly less powerful, such as Miller, can be "attack dogs" and do great work, but are ordinarily perceived as less of a political threat to the apex predators currently holding most of the reins of power, but ambitious for absolute rule (aka the fascists/corporatists), than those immediately below themselves, such as Kerry.

And we know that the evil forces behind the military-industrial complex can be nice and they can be.... not nice; indeed have been not nice, in the not in the least distant past.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. You noticed that too huh?
Think of the stir that "mis-truth" caused.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Apparently. John Kerry, "I can't find the evidence."
And I said, “You were robbed, senator!” And he said “I know” (and held his hands up to his head like he had a headache, as Kerry would do) just like that. “I know! (Miller makes the same hand gesture.) And he started to say, "I can’t find the evidence." I can’t persuade my colleagues to take this seriously.

http://www.oregonvrc.org/SpeakerSeries1
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. No body debates that Kerry was "robbed" of votes via underhanded
methods.
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. .
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's the same as with LIHOP/MIHOP
Believing th etruth on any of these issues means pretty much conceding that the republic is dead. For me, I have come to believe over the last 10 years that the Republican party of Rove, the Bushes, Delay, Santorum, Scaife, Limpballs, and their ilk is the face of evil. They are malevolent, anti-American, soulless, and sociopathic and have brought about the end of the great American republic via their words and deeds.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Mark Crispin Miller is an endorser of the 911Truth Statement
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. Great post, Amaryllis!
Because the implications of what happened last year are quite frightening....quite frightening. It doesn’t make any difference how brilliant a campaign you run. It doesn’t make any difference how smart your TV ads are. It doesn’t make any difference what a stellar profile your candidate has. You could run Jesus Christ for President, ok? You’re not going to win. You’re not going to win because this is not a functioning Democracy. America is no longer a Democracy. The last three elections have been stolen.

And the people that stole those elections now enjoy dictatorial powers that include concentration camps, torture, and surveillance of all Americans.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for posting this. I read the whole thing.
Mark Crispin Miller is right. He's absolutely right. Whatever happened in the conversation between him and Kerry, the reason it became a big controversy is exactly what he says it is. This is the first time I've seen it spelled out so clearly and concisely. No one wants to admit the big, big trouble this country is is. It is especially hard for those who have managed to gain some power and influence to admit it.

I bought Mark's book before Christmas and I'm going to start reading it today.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You are right; the important thing is the REASON it became such a
controversy.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Not really true
I think the comments Kerry made ON THE RECORD in the AAR Bender interview were anything but denial - the difference is Kerry is (correctly) speaking from solid ground - ie: he said that a FL county found the Diebold machines to be hackable. He has also at other times spoken about the voter suppression.

His focus is that for democracy's sake we have to fix this now. He has been involved with legislation (the major bill in conjunction with Hillary, Boxer and Lautenberg). I think the point of him speaking about it this way and talking about the need for people to become activists and demand this - is the reality that without a huge wave of public demand, these Democratic bills will go nowhere.

I assume Kerry does have a personal view of whether the election was stolen - it may be his public view which is that he doesn't know that. (His definition of know is likely very precise.) Al Gore has to know for a fact that he should have been President. No one asks him if he thinks this or why he didn't make everything cleaner after 2000. Kerry is in a more ambiguous situation. By official results he lost Ohio by a bigger margin - with less concrete evidence that it was stolen. (Suppression of the vote by insuffient machines in Democratic areas - where the bipartisan county committees had reports ahead of time listing the number of machines was clever, hard to counter, and absolutely evil and despicable.) For Kerry, who along with his entire extended family, worked so hard and came so close, this had to be excrusiatingly painful. Going on with the dignity that he has and trying among other things to push an effort (from a position of little power) to fix the election system is an admirable mature thing to do.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I'm all for Kerry "going on with dignity".
If he doesn't see enough evidence yet to risk his position and his accrued credibility, then so be it. But I'm saddened by that because I DO see it, and I believe that our very democracy is at stake. People are suffering and dying at the hands of a Bush regime that should not be in office. Every day there is a new assault on the Constitution. I believe that we desperately need the authority and the leadership of men like Kerry, and I'm impatient that he and others seem to need so much proof.

The proof is there. People like Eric Alterman and Mark Crispin Miller and others have spelled it out over and over. Not only that, but they have pointed out what it would take to fix it.

I understand Kerry's position, but it makes me impatient and frustrated.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. On dignity.
Kerry can have his dignity. But then, we must insist that he does not poison the candidate pool in 2008 with his dignity. He promised to fight for our votes and he did precisely the opposite.

Kerry has his dignity, but we're stuck with ChimpCo for another four catastrophic years. Dignity! Bah!
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I won't agree that it is/was an Admirable or Mature decision to remain
essentially "silent" on this question.

It may have been smart politically for some, but could argue that it wasn't even smart politically.

If we accept that evidence proving the 2004 elections were stolen and fraud did indeed take place, (which I do) then we cannot with any measure of sanity continue as if the next election will be fair and honest.

When it is proven, that we no longer live in any kind of democracy, that our votes are not counted, we live in a autocratic, totalitarian authority and we the people are no longer represented - this state of affairs calls for a very different response than going through the pointless, meanlingless motions of putting forward "measures", which will not be legislated.

It calls for very different response, than politically "smart or mature".

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. And you have to put yourself
in Kerry's position too. I still remember someone posting on BradBlog that one of Kerry's daughters was threatned. :shrug: I don't know about that but nothing would surprise me. There is a court case from the Kerry camp for August of 2006. That's still going on right?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. I heard his interview with Malloy
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 12:51 AM by FreedomAngel82
when he was subbing on Randi's spot I believe Wednesday or Thursday. He basically told all I already knew thanks to those like Bob Firtakis, Greg Palast and Brad Friedman. It's really nothing new. He's just making some noise now. Why doesn't he give his book to John Kerry or Howard Dean or someone who is open-minded who might can do something? For those who have read it is there anything new or different from John Conyers' book?
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm going to read it next week
when I pick it up from the library. I wish MSM would talk about this but I know that would happen when hell freezes over.
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you for posting this!!
I only just came across this transcript yesterday and have been sending it to everyone in hopes that it will be read. Yes it's long, but it's so important - and not JUST the part about elections, but the part spelling out exactly where this regime is taking our country!!

As Mark points out at the end, we are NOT a country of extremists or theocrats and the sooner the majority of American's open their eyes to what's happening, the better chance we have of heading them off at the pass. I truly don't believe it's too late yet, although I do feel time is running out. If jr. were to declare martial law - well that would be a pretty good indication that we've waited too long...

I hope everyone takes the time to read this transcript and will pass it on to everyone they can asking them to do the same. We Are The Media!
We're all we've got right now and we CAN do this!
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. this definitely needs to be on the 'greatest' page
k&r

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Right bpilgrim!
5 more votes and it'll go to Greatest! It's a must read imho!
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Habibi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R and FYI
You can hear the audio of Miller's talk at http://www.unwelcomeguests.org/

He was carried on the 11/27 show.
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. KICK!
Kickin this 'cuz I think it's THAT important for everyone to read. Recommend please!? (or do you say nominate here? well you know what I mean...) :)
:kick:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. I don't see where Kerry said the election was stolen in this account?
Anyone?

I'm a pit pissed off after all the "shit" that was stirred here initially about his admitted claim "Kerry now thinks the election was stolen," but it's a great read thanks - recommended.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. it's implied...
not specific. Refer you to post #21:



21.
And I said, “You were robbed, senator!” And he said “I know” (and held his hands up to his head like he had a headache, as Kerry would do) just like that. “I know! (Miller makes the same hand gesture.) And he started to say, "I can’t find the evidence." I can’t persuade my colleagues to take this seriously.



So if you say you know you were robbed... does that mean you think it was stolen? That's the question open to interpretation. What if they were talking baseball... you know a long fly ball to the wall, OF jumps, grabs the ball over the wall in a spectacular catch... he was robbed, but it was fair. Anyway, it's only a big deal because it was made to be a big deal.


...little bathroom magnets...
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Sorry, I don't have the same impression of those comments as you do.
Especially when the ENTIRE conversation is examined.
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