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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:49 PM
Original message
If I just assaulted a local merchant and I'm in front of your house
wielding a knife and acting crazy, don't pay me any mind, all is well. And for God's Sakes don't call the police. They'll probably send people to make sure I don't assault anyone else.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Actually, I'd be able to talk you down
I worked in a nuthouse. I've had plenty of practice. It can be done.

Calling for security backup was a very rare event.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm betting you wouldn't yell at the guy either
Yelling only makes things worse with the mentally unstable... just adds another level of frustration to their already skewed perspective.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Exactly.
Having had to talk down violent folks, I too can attest to it being possible, without force.

Poor training and fear is what is reflected in that video. Can you imagine men with guns being so frightened?

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Stop being silly
Edited on Wed Dec-28-05 03:59 PM by merh
Shooting a man with a knife that is surrounded by 16 cops with guns is definitely over kill.

Cops were not trained properly. Throwing the baton to the leg would cause the knife holder to grab his leg and drop the knife, raid shields could be used to coral him and subdue him.

Excessive force is just that, excessive force.

I think what happened should be equated to shooting a catfish in a barrel. The catfish could stick you, if you got too close.

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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thank you, that was exactly my take! nt
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. So, you'd be fine with a
knife wielding thug terrorizing your neighborhood and maybe your home and not a police officer within miles and with an attitude that the citizenry has no desire that they take corrective action against knife wielding thugs in your neighborhood? Is that exactly your take?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Damn, that's a stretch
And you extrapolated those words from which comment?
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Please share with me
the ideal situation of a knife wielding thug on your street. A thug who just assaulted a fellow citizen. Please extrapolate for me the ideal ending of the situation with zero police involvement. Please extrapolate. Obviously we can all do without police extapolation in our lives. Just let the knife wielders roam freely. That, would be a stretch.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Take a chill pill, dude
I feel your blood pressure rising!

If there was a mental health professional around, which is what I think you are commenting on, then it could easily be controlled until the proper authorities got there to take the guy away... alive. That is the only reference I can think of that would lead you to think anyone would want to deal with this situation without the cops. Even at that, I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to phrase your question like that.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Well I would grab a bat and hit him with it
like any of those cops could have done. A nightstick is a great weapon to disarm a knife with. It Was ONLY a KNIFE. So yeah I would have thrown something besides a bullet and if I had, had several people with me we could have knocked him out. He can't face in all directions at once. GEEEEEZ!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. There's a word for "heroes" like that
D-E-A-D

The first rule of combat with the lethal weapon ladened attacker is get away.

The second rule is use lethal force that can be applied at a distance.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. THROW an object, It's a knife for gods sake.
Throw a nightstick- everyone at once aim it amd throw. Wait until he's down and go for him. I watched my husband disarm a knife weilding person alone, all by himself and do it without a scratch to himself. He has no training except that he was in the first Iraq war. The problem is they were AFRAID of the knife and didn't care to think of a better way. This, in my opinion is just absurd. Sorry Walt I always agree with you but I just can't on this.

By the way congratulations on your 30,000 posts. :toast:
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Congrats Walt
Edited on Wed Dec-28-05 04:31 PM by OhioBlues

Congrats on that 30,000 post count!! :applause:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
46. link please
n/t

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
91. I know another term...two words
R-E-A-S-O-N-A-B-L-E F-O-R-C-E

Over 14 people (was it 16?) with batons is more than enough for one person with a knife. I'm certainly not ignoring the damage a knife can do, but a baton has much more reach than a knife and can cause a person to drop the weapon, at the very least. With so many cops with batons, the use of guns was not necessary.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-29-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #91
100. Now see, you have gone and done it.
You have used the word "reasonable" and as is obvious from the responses of those defending the cops, reasonable is not something they understand, let alone consider employing in real life.

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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-29-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #91
103. Of course it was necessary -- if your objective is target practice
I'm really sick of the defense of excessive use of force I see here at this place. As if there's not enough fascism and totalitarianism running around on the OTHER side. Thanks for adding your reasonable voice.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:54 PM
Original message
It just boggles the mind that
shooting a man this easily can be accepted by anyone.

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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
69. Yes a man with a 3 inch blade
is a huge threat to how many grown men with guns? It is a telling sign that our society has bought the fear that has been touted so highly since 2001. :shrug:
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
77. Is assaulting a fellow citizen
with a knife (as the perpetrator did) less mind boggling? Do we readily accept criminal acts and condemn the attempts to stop them?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. They had him stopped.
You are condoning his killing, when other avenues were available.

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #77
89. Please
he was sorrounded by HOW MANY cops? There was no real reason to kill him, there were other ways to handle the situation, and the police failed their responsibility to do so.

I accept stopping criminal acts in a reasonable manner and I condemn senseless killing.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
97. There was no knife involved in the assault.
He slapped a clerk at Walgreens.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
80. How did society become so heartless?
There must be a psychological explanation for how many people back these despicable actions.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Terra, terra, terra
Fear ...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thank you merh
I agree completely.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
35. I just can't see shooting a man with a knife
Except in Indiana Jones films.

There were other means that could have been used to subdue him.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
92. I like the idea of throwing a club at him
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-29-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. In theory, each officer has been trained to disarm a suspect
using the asp or the pressure points, in case the officer himself is not armed. So, if the 16 officers were properly trained, they had knowledge how disarm the knife weilding man without shooting him.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Actually, I think your post takes the cake on being silly.
I suggest you spen a night ona beat with your local cops. Just one night.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Hey Walt
I have :hi:

You ought to watch yourself, you're slipping.


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. A couple of my good friends are cops
I am anxious to get their take on this.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Understand, if the reports of the lunge are false
then the cops were in the wrong.

The lu8nge is where the line was drawn, IMO. If there was no lunge, they can keep the guy contained for quite a long time without firing.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
105. My father with more than 35 years in Law Enforcement
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 05:35 PM by mtnester
Master Sharpshooter, still trains law enforcement in this state, does CCW training as his second career....

"That was the stupidest thing I have ever seen....this situation is what a taser is for..for god's sake, there were more than a dozen officers there...did ANYONE think of shooting him in both of his legs? He would have DROPPED and forgot all about the knife...then you could have tasered him to get him to drop the knife, if he had not already....This was NOT a shoot to kill situation...who the Eff trained these idiots? Barney Fife?"

My fathers rant on the situation. And yes, he has had to disarm knife wielding mentals, drunks and criminals before...with mace and a stick....alone... and teaches how to do it to recruits now.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Mr. Walt
face it, you sound more and more like those you oppose.

It is okay to say the cops were wrong, acted against general orders or departmental policy or over reacted in a given situation.

It is okay to say the action was wrong and must not be allowed to happen again.

Dissent is okay, really it is.

And dissent based on common sense, compassion and practical experience is okay too.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Thank God for the voice of reason
I'm going to try and take lessons from you, merh. You so calmly state the truth in such a way as to seem removed from it emotionally, yet, I'm sure there is emotion/passion otherwise you wouldn't be here.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. There is passion.
Edited on Wed Dec-28-05 05:08 PM by merh
I have worked in and with law enforcement for years. I trained officers regarding the civil liberties of the accused.

I stood between schizophrenic inmates and officers with asps because I didn't want to see the inmates beaten to a pulp. I've talked the inmates down and was often asked to accompany officers when they had to subdue similar folks.

Use of force in all situations is to be considered last resort. Use of leathal force should be used only if the officer and/or members of the public lives are in danger.

At the time of the shooting, the cops had the upper hand. They did not have the knife yet, but if they had used other avenues available, they could have obtained it and not have shot the man the way they did.



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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. I thank the powers that be for people like you
We need a lot more of you in the world today.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Gee, thanks, that is a nice thing to say.
Wish I could do more - the need in our society is great.

The mentality of many cops and citizens breed the abuse and contempt.

Years of work, down the drain ... terrorists, commies, criminals.....

:cry:

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. Well, as I've said
I have a family member who, although she is brilliant and has an IQ above 170, is schizophrenic. There are confrontations with police on un medicated occasions, and I only wish there were people like you around when those things happen. I'm afraid that one day I will get a call from the police telling me that she has been shot because she was yelling at a cop or something. When her drivers license was revoked, she was found facing the wrong direction on an interstate highway more than 200 miles from home. She wouldn't let the cops in the car and she wouldn't come out. When she finally rolled the window down, she told them she was on a secret mission with the FBI... may as well have told them she was Napoleon. It's very hard on the family and there are so few resources. We can't force medication, so we just wait for the next time...

Maybe this is why I try to see the side of the "crazy" person. No one deserves to be shot like that, even if they were arrested 16 times for being "crazy".
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. It goes back to the lack of training
and cops reacting out of fear and not with reason.

One woman, when not medicated, was a force to be feared, she knew it. She would rattle off gibberish, made up words mixed with profanity and her eyes were frightening. She wouldn't touch an officer first, she would just carry on and refuse to listen to their commands. I saw her take down 5 officers in the jail, big men, the warden was one of them and hide under the bench. When I heard the ruckus, I came around and called her name. I calmly told her she had to stop before she hurt someone and before they hurt her. I stood between her and the police and just maintained my composure and concern.

I was able to calm her down and walk her to her cell. Every time they needed her out of the cell, I would come and talk to her.

I have no formal training, I just couldn't stand the thought of her being blungeoned to death. The police and jails have no idea how to handle such folks. They shouldn't have to, but thanks to Reagan, they have to.

When properly medicated, this woman, like others suffering from her condition, are just as nice and "normal" as you and I.

No one, deserves to be shot in the street because they are different or because they didn't follow orders. Yes, he had a knife, but geeze louise, they had 16 guns.

It makes no sense, none whatsoever.

If you don't mind, I will include your sis in my prayers, after having dealt with many folks with similar problems, I try to ask that they be protected from the ignorant and the uncaring.

Good luck to you and your family, it isn't easy. :hug:


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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. He wasn't surrounded,
otherwise the police would not have shot at him.

They weren't trained properly? Based on what information?

Excessive force is what the suspect used on his victim and if not subdued could possibly have used on you and your loved ones. And then we'd bitch about the lack of police protection for the good citizens of the community. Criminal acts upon citizens is not silly.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. He was surrounded.
Go watch the video again - good lord. 1 man with knife - 16 cops with 9 mm guns.

They weren't trained properly based upon their actions, excessive force for the situation.

The man was not threatening them or another when they had he SURROUNDED and had all 16 of the 9 mm guns aimed at him.

They were in a hurry to subdue him, why? Why didn't they wait it out? What caused them to think that they had to react? NOTHING BUT fear and bad training.

Again, the asp, the pressure points, the raid shields, the old fashion baton, avenues available individually and with pepper spray.

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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. yeah but bosshog
what if he'd been carrying a big wicked pencil? He could still kill ya with that. But I am certain they would have tried harder not to firingsquad a guy carrying a big ass pencil.

That's the point - if they don't believe they could have done anything different then that's all that's ever going to happen in that situation. Yeah, if you're holding a knife and someone's holding a gun, cop or not, put down the knife.

I don't believe that any of those policemen wanted to kill anyone. However if the training they did have got them to kill the guy anyway in spite of not wanting to, then you have to surmise that the training for that kind of situation can be improved.

It's contentious because everyone is a little right and a little wrong - it's not black or white given the order in which backups were called and the way it escalated. But that's also training.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Change a few words
and your rant sounds like Bush on terrists.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. You must feel the weakening of your argument
A knife wielding thug who is a known threat to his community confronted by police with a good deal of facts already known has nothing to do with secret spying and lies about WMD's. But if I were at a loss for an argument except that we should coddle those known to have committed criminal acts I would continue to post as well.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. You don't know what you are supporting, you haven't even
Edited on Wed Dec-28-05 05:12 PM by merh
watched the video. YOu can't have watched it if you post above that he wasn't surrounded.

Geeze, does it just have to be "you are with us or against us" -- the cops were wrong, that does not make me anti-law enforcement and pro-crime. It is my opinion regarding their behavior based upon actually watching the video and having law enforcement experience and legal training.

You need to get a grip -- sounding more like the bushbots, either with us or against us - can't be against the war and pro troops.

I want better training for the cops, I want their budgets properly funded so they can get that training, I want to be rid of the "we good guys, you bad guys" mentality and return it to what cops are supposed to be protectors, law enforcers, not law breakers (whatever it takes to rid our streets of the filth).

Hate this administration for cutting funding, hate this administration for limiting grant programs to only pay for weapons (tasers) and/or anti-terrorist training that promotes the insane notion that we have to fear everyone and everything.


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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Glad to see someone else sees the Bushisms in him
Scary, huh? And he is supposed to be on "our" side.

People. Cripes.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Haha! not at all`
Your divergence from anything that remotely sounds like a question you were asked or a comment you may have read here to this point.

Your neanderthal bullying and "brute force handles everything" attitude is what reminds me of Bush.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
90. We wasn't a threat at that point
Get that through your head. He was no longer a threat to his community. That's like beating the crap out of a suspect in handcuffs.

Not killing someone does not equal "coddling". It is equals NOT doing an unreasonable thing in killing someone for no reason. Do you get the difference, or should I draw you a picture?
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
43. I saw the video. HE WAS SURROUNDED!
And the knife, unfortunately, was visible. He was just waving his arms in a sort of sweeping circular movement that looked very awkward and very unpracticed. He was not a regular thug, it was easy to see. But that's just me...a citizen who possesses and tries to USE discrimination and insight in my everyday life.

I know that policemen are such a special breed and a special kind of person that they can't be bothered to think, or they'd die needless deaths. And that is always a tragedy....I realize and recognize that.

But somehow the deaths of citizens at the hand of the police is not likewise considered "needless" or "tragic".

God knows, it's far better that we kill those in our society who behave badly than to take any effort to preserve their lives....after all it's JUST one person's welfare balanced against the welfare of ALL those other people in the neighborhood and the lives of all those policemen surrounding him. God knows, for them to go against their training and to try to preserve that lousy man's life would surely mess up the whole goddamn system. God knows that it would lead straight to a complete meltdown of our very society! Makes me wonder why we even bother with the whole "criminal justice" system. Just shoot the bastards dead and let the rest of it sort itself out. Save a buncha money and make it incredibly unappetizing to commit a crime, while giving cops zero necessity of life-threatening cognitive activity.



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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Yes, he was
And where was the concern for their fellow police officers.... STANDING ON THE OTHER SIDE???
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:21 PM
Original message
i know...and i agree. that might not be evident unless you read my whole
post.........(not meant to be sarcasm either...just a little clarification). :)
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
59. I did, and I apologize
if I sounded boorish or rude. I need to go for a walk and not talk on this board for a while, methinks. The pacifist in me is at odds with the side that wants to bust someone's head for being an idiot.

Your post was crystal clear and I agreed completely. I think my tone was in response to others who couldn't allow their minds to open far enough to see that whole picture.

Thank you for your kind response. It really got me back on track :)

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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. no need, really. I totally understand!
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
74. Bring Back Public Execution!!
God knows, it's far better that we kill those in our society who behave badly than to take any effort to preserve their lives....after all it's JUST one person's welfare balanced against the welfare of ALL those other people in the neighborhood and the lives of all those policemen surrounding him. God knows, for them to go against their training and to try to preserve that lousy man's life would surely mess up the whole goddamn system. God knows that it would lead straight to a complete meltdown of our very society! Makes me wonder why we even bother with the whole "criminal justice" system. Just shoot the bastards dead and let the rest of it sort itself out. Save a buncha money and make it incredibly unappetizing to commit a crime, while giving cops zero necessity of life-threatening cognitive activity.
_________________________________________________________________________ Actually, if they brought back public execution... TELEVISED public execution, it would reduce the crime rate drasticly. Cold Blooded killers shouldnt even get the chance to waste taxpayer's money by sitting in jail, being fed 3 times a day and waiting on a trial with an attorney that WE pay for, just to give him life in prison without parole.. that just gives him a home, 3 meals a day and free medical care for life... bullets are cheaper!!! People would think more than twice about committing violent crimes. Rapists should be castrated too! Let the world watch on The Discovery Channel, that would be some good reality TV!
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
76. Gosh!!
The video I saw did not show him surrounded (cops all around him) they were all in front of him and proceeding towards him. I did not see any police behind him. What video did you see?
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
96. Oh, bullshit
He was so surrounded *I* felt trapped and desperate just watching the tape. He was so surrounded he knew as well as I did he and his fat black ass was DEAD MEAT, emphasis on DEAD, real dead, as in "Ooooheee, let's kill a coon since we the cops and can get away with it" dead.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. It isn't supposed to be a fair fight
he is supposed to put the friggin knife down.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. How do you know he wasn't going to put it down.
He was as scared as they were, if not more so, given he had 16 guns aimed at him.

He wasn't given ample opportunity to put it down, as far as what I saw. Why the rush, they had the advantage.

Jump when I say jump, how I say jump or I'll shoot you? And why is that, because you can, because you are the police. Plenty of folks over the years have been told that.

Police are supposed to protect and serve and they are supposed to protect the rights and the safety of the bad guys too.

Most cops I know hate suicide by cops, they will go out of their way to diffuse a situation before they take a life.

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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. he was told a number of times to put the knife down.
They attempted to subdue him. They sprayed him with pepper spray. He wiped it off as if it had no affect on him. The research indicates that it takes 1.27 seconds to kill someone with a knife and a lunge. It if takes 1.02 seconds to shoot--that leaves little time for consideration. It was a lose-lose situation.

The police were called to the scene. Citizens had been in danger. Attempting to subdue him one-on-one would have put their lives in further danger. Why should they risk serious injury?

You suggest that they must look after the bad-guy's rights too. He also needs to have a hand in looking after his rights. He should have put it down. He should have stopped after the 100th command. He gave up his rights when he lunged at the officers. There was no rush. He ended it.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. When called to the scene, yes, citizens WERE in danger.
At the time the man was shot, they were not.

16 9mm guns were aimed at a lone man with a knife. He did not lunge, he just tried to keep them at bay.

You keep commanding until you find a way to reasonably subdue, you DON'T SHOT because the bad guy won't listen.

Damn!

And what you and others are missing is how important it is that the governor consider declaring martial law and calling in the National Guard MP's to act as the police force in NOLA until such time as the cops are provided proper counseling and given time off.

The horrors of Katrina have affected many of us, the inability to use proper judgment and to control our fears is just one of many side effects (PTSD IS REAL).

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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. According to the police he did lunge
That is why they shot him.

My point was that people were looking at this in a bubble. The big picture is that the police were called to the scene of a violent man with a knife who may have hurt someone.

16 people were aiming at him to assure the safety of the officers and the community. It isn't supposed to be a fair fight.

It is horrific. It was a terrible end to a terrible scene. As I stated, there are no winners. The loser was the one who presented the threat to the community. The police did not create the danger--he did.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. According to the video - he did not.
Which is why this is so disgusting.

They will tell lies and you will believe them, just because they are the police, even when it is caught on video.

Given your accepted scenerio, a man with a knife lunges (and misses since not one cop was injured), how is it the other 15 didn't lunge and take him down while he was in the process of attacking one cop? Why didn't they take advantage of the lunge and use their asps and their training regarding pressure points?

No, I stand by my earlier opinion, excessive force for the situation.

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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. The videographer stated that he ran downstairs and missed the end
of the incident. He was interviewed.

"They" don't all lie.

They should not have to risk death because he wants to risk death.

I don't expect you to step-down from your ealier opinion. I will await the facts before I decide.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. I won't step down from my opinion
16 guns versus one knife - OVER KILL

Like shooting a catfish in a barrel.

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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Why should it be a fair fight?
Should they only go in one at a time? If one is cut, then bring in another one? Or two? Or three? How many? Why should it be a fair fight?

Have a good one Merh. I liked your Christmas tree picture.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. It should be a fair fight because they are the LAW.
Their job is to enforce the law, not break it.

There were plenty of avenues available to them, they didn't have to shot him. Read my posts above that discuss the other options available, but not used.

You have a good one too, glad you liked the tree, it is a good tree. thanks.


:hi:

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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. I read your options.
The facts I read do not make your options possible or realistic.

The police should not have to risk their lives because he is threatening them with a knife. The article stated that when he lunged within one-foot of an officer, they shot. It was a dangerous situation--brought on by him.

I guess I do not understand your idea that it should be a fair fight. That suggests that he should have a fighting chance to escape, kill an officer, hurt someone else, that it should be one on one and not all the officers should help. I do not understand why he deserves a fair fight. He needed to be stopped and he refused to do it on his own.

The beauty of DU is that we can have diverse opinions without resorting to name calling and hard feelings. I appreciate that. Thanks
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. What was their rush to do anything more than contain him.
And yeah, they should try to subdue before they kill. Its in most department policies.

And you are trusting a media report, press release written by the department for the officers.

I guess I don't understand your notion of a fair fight - 16 9mm versus 1 knife? Do you not see how the scale is tipped in the cops favor?



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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. shouldn't the scale be tipped in favor of the police?
I agree that it was tipped in favor of the police. This was not a duel. It should be tipped in favor of the police.

It ended when he lunged at the officer. They were biding their time, waiting for a way to end it with less force. He ended the stand-off when he went for the officer. You keep saying that you do not understand why they did not wait. They tried. They tried to subdue him. They tried to stop him. He escalated the incident when he lunged.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. You are believing the press release issued by the police.
I am not.

And even if he had lunged within one foot of one of the officers, at that time the other 15 could have subdued him.

The scale was definitely tipped in favor of the police. The catfish jumped and they still shot him in the barrel.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Oh, and having been in similar situations.
I know that emotional composure works better than fear and anger.

It is better to remain calm and talk with the threatening individual, than it is to be angry and lower yourself to their threatening ways.

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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. Well it was only a knife and he was a
good distance from the cops. Was he going to throw it at them? There were too many of them against ONE guy with a knife. It was a bad call and I imagine most cops are shaking their heads at the absurdity of this. :thumbsdown:
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. oh i get it
flame bait....nice tactic when the real argument is in other threads.

Not getting enough attention? agreement?

I'm sorry, but these threads are a pet peeve of mine.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Mine too
And I'm ashamed to get caught up in them.

Reminds me of all the Repugs who were against F 9/11 without ever seeing the film. (There's nothing else they could have done! They were within the law!)

Reminds me of Bush saying sure, he wiretapped Americans, and he'd do it again. Gotta fight 'em over there so we don't have to fight them here. (Shoot a guy down so he doesn't harm anyone else.)

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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Ya damn skippy!
Keep the knife wielding fool alive and let him terrorize your family. Do away with all police departments because all they do is keep criminals from committing crimes. bush wiretapping and preventing crimes in the streets are two totally separate issues but when one loses an edge one begs to join with another to remain relevant. Have a loved one stabbed by a maniac with a knife while police officers stand by and watch and then sing your tune. The attempt to join that issue with bush and wiretapping is a cry for help.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Ya damn Jif!
Let's just go out and kill 'em all vigilante style and let God sort the good from the bad, shall we? Hang 'em high and you can tell if they are guilty or not by the way the body swings!

You are the only one who is saying anything against the police departments as a whole. No one said there shouldn't have been police involvement except for you! I'm using the Bush analogy because you are acting like God, just like Bush. You are being a bully and your mind is closed and you cannot see any other side to this situation except your own, very narrow view.


HAVE A FUCKING SCHIZOPHRENIC RELATIVE WHO DOES AN OCCASIONAL ODD THING WHEN NOT MEDICATED AND HAVE THE COPS SHOOT THEM FOR LITTLE TO NO REASON EXCEPT THEY WERE SCARY AND THEN SING ME YOUR FUCKING TUNE! TOP THAT OFF WITH POLICE AND HEALTH SYSTEMS THAT GIVE FAMILIES NO ALTERNATIVES! ADD TO THAT A BUNCH OF FUCKING IDIOTS LIKE YOURSELF WHO THINK ALL NUT JOBS SHOULD BE SHOT NOW AND ASKED QUESTIONS LATER AND YOU HAVE ONE FUCKED UP MESS!

I hope to God you learn to love your fellow man as a whole before it hits you in the face.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. "Hits me in the face??"
I don't understand what you mean. I'm a fucking idiot? I'm 51 years old, and two speeding tickets make up my "criminal record," I spent 24 years in the Navy, I am a law-abiding, tax paying productive citizen. Please share with me the notion that I should accept knife wielders on my street (or spin to your hearts content.) I haven't voted for a republican in more 30 years. I find george bush a vile, evil, hateful human being (in other words he is a fellow man I do not love.) I am not a bully because I have never had to be. And thank your for not answering my questions. Your responses are similar to ralph reed's when he was accused of plagiarizing a college paper. And you call me a bully?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You are a fucking idiot
Edited on Wed Dec-28-05 05:19 PM by Juniperx
You are only three years older than me and I have three speeding tickets and three adult children non of whom are on drugs, in jail or have hurt any other living creature. Don't make me pull my Mensa card on you.

You can't see the other side at all. You have no compassion. That makes you a hateful human being. You didn't recognize my answers to your questions because they were not the answers you were trying to bully me into giving.

You can't see the wisdom or the need to hate a person's actions while still showing compassion; you are dangerous.

Yes, you are a fucking idiot. From my perspective. And surely from the perspective of the family of this person who was shot by 16 cops who felt there was no other alternative. Just like you felt. There are almost always other alternatives to killing someone.

So you don't get the "hit you in the face" reference? Pity that. It's going to hurt when reality catches up with you, and it will, someday, when you least expect it. Life is like that. Call it Karma, or whatever. Life has a funny way of telling us when we are being assholes, and it stings.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Please share with me
what will happen when reality catches up with me? Will it be a knife wielder threatening my life in front of my home with no police around to assist me? I would not suspect that someone with a Mensa card would have to pull it out on anyone but after reading your posts you may want it standing by. I have no compassion? How bout the victims of this persons crimes? I guess Mensa folk don't consider them deserving of compassion. But there is no doubt you'll spin like a top to make your argument.

The suspect had an arrest record. 16 arrests (yeah, we need to train the police.) But the suspects past pain inflicted upon his neighbors don't matter to Mensa types, cause Mensa types have compassion (for criminals.)

Don't tell me you are Mensa, let me figure it out all for myself. (So far, you are failing.) Go ahead call me a fucking idiot, make yourself feel good.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. My fault
I gave you the ammo... You can't argue intelligently so you have to take blows at my intelligence, or lack thereof... fine.

You have proved yourself to be an asshole of the highest order. That is what ignore buttons are for.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. You call me a "fucking idiot"
and yet I can't argue intelligently? I have to chuckle.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Laugh it up
You are the one who started the name calling and you are the one who can't argue proficiently enough to debate without insult.

Now, don't you dare deny me the last laugh as I push the ignore button. I refuse to battle wits with the unarmed.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Gosh, how could I possibly??
- Criminal activity should be policed by a community.
- Police should be allowed discretion in dealing with criminals.
Wanna debate??

and as a special bonus to those in Mensa

- Police - good!
- Criminals - bad!

I'm so well armed, your choice of battle is to hit the ignore button. I'm sure that makes you feel good about yourself. Doesn't it piss you off to know you are losing a debate to one who can't argue "proficiently without insult?" Especially from a "fucking idiot?" Gosh, I wish I were a Mensa, then others would know I'm a dumbass without proving it to them. Go ahead, and whine about my "name calling." Sure sign of a loser, and keep fighting the good fight for a knife wielding thug. I'm so looking forward to you savaging me with your rationale even though I'm on ignore.
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-29-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #72
101. I like to give it a try
World is not black and white.

"Criminal activity should be policed by a community.
- Police should be allowed discretion in dealing with criminals."

That discretion is not unlimited. First of all, everyone is presumed Innocent until proven in a court of law. The police is not granted to power to be judge, jury and executioner at the same time. They are supposed to serve and protect all citizens, even the "bad guys".

Self defense is a last resort. When all other options fails. Just because they tried one way to subdue him (pepper spray) does not mean they did every thing they could.

I have seen people here talk about the magical 21 foot rule. That if you're within 21 feet of a person with a knife, he can kill you before you have a chance to defend yourself.

Two questions: Does that rule apply when the attacked has his gun drawn, and second, if this rule is so known, why not stay more than 21 feet away?

Lastly, what would the cops have done, had they been unarmed? I might be naive, but I thought That policemen where trained to deal with situations in which the policeman is unarmed and the attacker is not.
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-29-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
104. FWIW, he has also proven how terrified he is
And the post of his you were responding to was the clincher for me. So much terror in this world, pretty much all of it unnecessary. But boy, it sure does help the fascists, doesn't it? Terrified of a lone crazy man with a 3" blade knife, even though 16 cops with big ole guns and lotsa ammo have him surrounded and detained. So much terror to imagine that they had NO CHOICE -- or that their best choice -- was to execute the guy. For get arrests; forget detention and a fair trial; forget presumption of innocence and all that. Just put all your faith in those with the brute force going on because everything else is so fucking terrifying that's YOUR only choice.

It's incredibly, heartbreakingly sad, even as it's utterly maddening to see people who "haven't voted Republican in 30 years" nevertheless side with the ardent police staters and help the fucking fascists.

Those of us who can easily see not just one but many different ways this scenario could have played out without this "criminal" losing his life just aren't afraid of a lone crazy man surrounded by 16 cops. What can I say? We're not afraid of boogie man terrorists either.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. You present an absurd argument
No one here is suggesting the police should have done nothing. They are merely suggesting that the "something" didn't have to be killing him.

This thread is ridiculous.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
39. for some the police are always "justified" in what they do...
as long as they do is done according to their training. for me the problem is that lately their training necessitates that they take the most aggressive stance possible...and it is easily provable that this was not always the case. that once upon a time the police were "peace keepers" and not "law enforcers".

looting in New Orleans? shoot to kill.

a man with a knife? shoot to kill!

a man running away from an airplane? shoot to kill!

hell! soon it might become so dangerous to be a cop that they'll be justified to shoot unarmed persons who look/act suspicious. oh, wait! that's already happened too.

and you'll continue to defend their right to do it. and you won't pay attention to the fact that they are heading down a path that only leads to more deaths of people who COULD have been dealt with differently until....until when? when that person only has to disobey a direct order to be thought a threat? when that person is your deaf and retarded uncle? until when??????

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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
45. THE SUSPECT HAD AN ARREST RECORD
Per WWL-TV News (New Orleans CBS) the suspect had been arrested 16 times. No big deal. I guess more police training would have reduced his number of arrests.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. might come as a big surprise to you, but
mentally ill persons (who behave aberrantly or else they'be be considered normal like you) --- especially ones who aren't getting the treatment they need --- tend to get arrested a lot. they do strange things in public and they get arrested for it. trespassing. loitering. making threatening gestures. frightening kids. throwing things. all arrestable offenses.

why the hell we don't spend more time trying to get them treated instead of arresting and shooting them is beyond me. but I cannot stand the self-righteous attitude of people who put "law and order" above individual "civil rights" and whose tolerance for official thuggery masquerading as law enforcement tops their ability to have an iota of empathy for the victims of these sorts of tradedies -- which would include the actual shot-dead at point-blank range mentally ill person, his/her family, and the community in which they live...not to mention the value of human life which is devalued every time someone justifies the slaughter of a mentally ill civilian by the police/militia/federal marshalls/etc.

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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. "Trying to get them treated"
outstanding idea. Is that the police departments purview? No.

A sincere request - Your statement about "they'd be considered normal by you." Could you expound? I don't understand your meaning. What, pray tell, am I being accused of?
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. but citizens like you and I DO have some ability to make that a priority.
won't happen as long as all people want to do is exonerate the police, and do so by denigrating the victims of these senseless killings, conjuring up scenarios in which they slaughter scores of citizens.

and, the welfare of the citizenry that they supposedly protect IS the purview of the police. they should consider that there is a large percentage of the population who have mental illnesses and that they are basically up shit creek without a paddle in the present social/economic setting. they deserve protection just as much as the rest of us. in fact I'd argue that they are the sort of people who need protection MOST. so policemen OUGHT to be trained to distinguish between mentally ill and criminal. and they ARE distinguishable.

my statement: mentally ill people are by definition aberrant in behavior, otherwise you'd consider them normal. means what it says. if mentally ill persons did not behave in an abnormal manner, they would behave like the rest of us. they'd be "normal" -- whatever the hell that means.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Thank you for your reply
Police should not be exonerated, but treated fairly. If they do good, fine, if they do bad, punish. We don't know what the case is with the current NOLA situation. An investigation is underway. "Denigrating victims?" A knife wielding thug who has already assaulted a merchant in the neighborhood - a victim? A criminal suspect who happens to have a mental illness? God Bless the policeman who figures that one out, and yet it happens every day.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. Very sad
That something so simple has to be explained over and over. A little compassion would go a long way toward helping these people. Most of them never did anything in life to warrant their disease. It's a sad commentary that we are having this conversation at all.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
70. Very well said.
Thank you for so eloquently expressing my feelings. I salute your verbal proficiency and your compassion for humanity.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. What for?
What was he arrested for in the past, or don't you think that matters? And do you think those cops knew his record? Do you think they did the world a favor by killing this guy? Judge and jury?
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Since he was arrested by police
I would think that the POLICE would know what he was arrested for. Gosh, you don't have to be a MENSA to figure that out. Per the TV newscast this evening he had 16 arrests, at least one for assaulting a police officer. No favor to the world. Police are not judge and jury. We hire people to provide those tasks.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Gosh. Then I guess they knew at the time they shot him
that this guy was mentally ill! Doh! Durrr... duh, tanks for straightening that out for poor little mental midget me.

Makes them look all the more ignorant and heartless. Thanks for helping me with that one ;)
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
95. "Police are not judge and jury."
Which is why they are not supposed to be judging that the death penalty is the proper sentence. Do you not even see the dichotomy of your own words? You are saying that they are not judge and jury while advocating that they should, in fact, take matters into their own hands. In addition, they would only know what he was arrested for if they knew for sure who he was. Did they establish that first? Or did they only find out who he was after they shot him and got identification on him?

No one is saying they should have done nothing. But they could have subdued him in other ways than to kill him.
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-29-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #45
102. What does that have to do with anything?
I really don't see what the man's arrest record have to with whether the police used excessive force.

Please explain.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
79. This was a bad thing.
I do not normally side with the police, but on this one, I am reserving judgement. I just don't know if what they did was wrong. I am a 42 year old housewife/horse trainer. Now, if they shot a HORSE that was terrorizing a neighborhood, I could offer an educated opinion on whether it was necessary or not(most likely not, horses are on the wrong end of the food chain). But I have no experience with large, erratically behaving, knife wielding men. Nor do I have a grasp of the tools and procedures available to policemen who are confronted by such men in public areas.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. You must be the smartest one here!
Seriously! I appreciate your candor about knowing your limitations. I have some knowledge and that can be a dangerous thing. My main deal is trying to protect the mentally ill and mentally challenged. It's up to us, society. They can't do it on their own.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #84
93. Thanks...I think....
The best thing would have been for this situation to have been headed off LONG before it got to the knife wielding-erratic behavior stage.

What this incident should do is highlight the need for SAFE ways to disarm or handle people who present not necessarily life threatening, but still threatening behavior.

Again, I am not sure exactly what those ways would be, but it makes sense to me that it could be done.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
85.  learned years ago that onyone who shows you a knife, won't use it.
For what it's worth....
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #85
94. Would you bet your life on that?Or the lives of your friends, family?n/t
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
98. When I see these situations, I often wonder why can't they do what
naturalists do when they need to examine a wild animal - use a tranquilizer dart?

It seems so easy and logical, why must people die in such situations.

I don't get it.

:shrug:
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