Any other sad Xmas visit stories? My parents are lost..

[tridim]

First off, we have a family rule not to talk politics, but my Mom always tries to get in jabs anyway. I was able to give my standard speech how they are more "Liberal" than they think (they're pro-choice, anti-religious right, anti-intelligent design and they live in Kansas, Anti-Bush Drug plan, and the topper.. the local Repuke she worked for is going to jail for campaign finance fraud).

I had to ask them for one reason why they still support Bush, and after a few minutes of filibuster my Mom said this, "I trust Bush completely and his war on terror is brilliant. He's the best president since Lincoln!" That statement floored me, and I haven't been able to sleep since she said it. I made it clear that her statement was borderline insane and kind of left it at that. I don't even know how to process such a bizarre statement, I had to smoke a big bowl when I got home to help me relax.

Can anyone top that?

[hippiechick]

1. Some people just refuse to see.

There are alot of folks who just do not want to know, and cannot stand the thought of being 'wrong'.
Don't lose sleep over it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Just a comment about your mom.

She's in denial. If she accepts that Bush is not the second coming, then it means everything else she believes in may be false too.

That's it. Half of this country is in denial. Can you imagine them ever accepting the fact that Liberal elites are smarter, afterall?

[tridim]

3. It's certainly denial

and furthermore, she thinks that it's bad to get information from various sources on the Net. She assumes that everything on the Internet is pure opinion. I give facts with references, and all she does is deny it because it wasn't reported on TV. It's maddening, since she gets all her "information" from Faux, the local news and the local paper IN KANSAS. I really am trying to get them to turn, but their pride in Bush is still too strong. I guess I have no choice but to let them suffer as they watch what happens to their king in the new year.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. I turned my older brother with the Gannon scandal.

I was in Miami visiting my dad and reading DU on his computer when the Gannon scandal hit the blogs. My brother was looking over my shoulder as it unfolded before his eyes.

But, he doesn't believe that anything will change until the mainstream press reports the information. Your mother's stubbornness is the perfect reason why. Not until something becomes conventional wisdom, can the unconventional occur.

[lostnfound]

10. What about giving her a subscription to a print magazine? Like

Progressive or the Nation? Or maybe a couple of subscriptions, so that she sees there's a whole other world out there.

[liberal N proud]

4. Your mother is right with one part of her statement:

"his war on terror is brilliant"
Think about it, it is HIS war and it is BRILLIANT.
Why? - because it has given him the authority to trample on the liberties we hold dear in this nation and to be supported so blindly in the destruction process of the Constitution. It is brilliant master plan of the evil empire controlled by the right wing fundamentalist.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. Paraphrasing Clinton: Some people prefer strong than right.

[tridim]

7. Obviously that's not what she meant

But I hear ya.

She thinks invading Iraq was a brilliant move as a 9/11 response and to the general WOT, yet she admits that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. See what I mean? It's all just too much to process and analyze logically. It's like talking to a robot that can't deviate from it's programming.

[lostnfound]

8. I'm picturing a clean-cut German woman, circa 1940s,

glowing with admiration, and a caption that says "Many Germans completely trusted their leader, too."

No offense to your mom. I can't imagine having that wide of a political gap with my own mom but she's not around anymore. (If she was still around, she'd probably have become a DUer.) But what is it about human nature that they are so willing to trust someone like *? I don't get it. Why??

[ClayZ]

13. Why? Could it be.....SHEPARD SMITH?

They all LOVE him!

Shepard Bio: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,1260,00.html

My parents told me Shepard was their FAVORITE.

ARGH!

[tridim]

15. Exactly what I picture

and it scares the crap out of me. I want to help turn them before it's too late.

[ClayZ]

9. I cried half the way home!

This from Christmas Day:
~~~~~~
I guess I had a war on Christmas.

I had it with my elderly republican parents this morning. Argh. I was so hoping to find them among the 30 percent who seemingly have pulled their heads out of the sand.

My war on christmas was a war of words. My parents could only parrot faux news. My family lives in Eastern Washington. Their newspaper this morning had an article about Katrina. The conversation that ensued at breakfast led to my attempt to gently tell them some facts.

They are 78 and 79 and have somehow bought the whole bu$h neocon package. They brought up clinis right away. Their disgust with Bill's morals far outweighs any possibility of looking for ethics violations in the present administration.

My war on christmas left me feeling guilty. I called and apologized for upsetting them when we got back home to the Seattle area. I had gone with all good intentions of a nice family visit. We had 26 family members gathered on Christmas Eve and it went fairly well. There were 7 dems and 8 republicans. The rest were children.

My mother finally admitted on the phone, that even though she abhors the fact that my husband and I are "PROTESTERS" (she says the word as though we were criminals) she still would bail us out of jail if she had to. That is love! And I love them, even though they are so WRONG!

It hurts!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5688539&mesg_id=5688795

[Digit]

32. Aw jeez, I can feel the love you all feel for each other

Perhaps if they realized their fellow seniors were being screwed by their policies...perhaps they would feel differently.
Both my mother and father were dems, so I have never been in your shoes.

[No Exit]

11. An old friend, guest at our Christmas dinner, referred to a local

civil rights figure as having "communist ties" from way back.

This friend is a former New Orleanian, and he's moved here.

I wanted to say, "Sheesh, 'communist ties' is so 20 years ago! All that blather about how the 'communists' were going to take control of the country from within! And look who it finally was who DID take control of the country from within--flag-waving so-called 'patriots'!"

I wanted to say that, but I decided that I'd leave it for some other time besides Christmas. But I do frequently make remarks about the current fascism, to this friend. He is not stupid, and I think I may be making some headway. I hope so.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. maybe you might ask her

if your body had been sent back to her in a 'freight' box, or if you were left in a vegetative state for the rest of your life as a result of this 'brilliant' leaders actions, if she would still be able to make that claim and not expect to be put under the care of a Dr. ??

She is in denial- big time- but denial kills- and it is killing people just like her,- you- me- as we speak. I can understand your bewilderment- frustration, and distress. Just remember, we don't CHOOSE our families- we do choose our friends- and while we can love people despite their flaws- (we are all flawed in some way)- playing the game of 'we won't discuss politics, religion or sex' means we don't care, or trust each other (or our own stand) enough to work hard (and discussing opposing views in effective ways IS WORK) to help them see the truth, or chance being wrong about where we stand.

If we 'write off' people because they hold views that cause grief- we WILL always have wars- words, truth, facts, and diplomacy are the antidote to violence, weapons and bloodshed. But each one of us become 'warriors' when the battle is not against 'them' but against accepted or tolerated attitudes and policies that begin right in our own homes-

i wish you peace and strength-

[tridim]

14. Believe me, the "no political talk" rule is not mine

It's theirs, under the guise of maintaining civility (which I actually do want). I think they know that I'm much more informed. I guess I can't expect a good debate when one party has their head in the sand. Technically I win by default, but I wish I could win fair.

The only problem is I don't have much to talk about with them because the ill state of the country is what's on my mind right now. It's what I want and need to talk about.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. I'm sorry

if it sounded like i was accusing you of not being willing to defend your position or speak out-
I was raised with the same 'rules' as you- no talk about anything that has any true value-

And i can really understand how hollow conversation becomes when we feel silenced by the inability of our 'family' to face uncomfortable issues- my parents died suddenly several years ago- and i honestly believe it is a blessing- Even my red-necked, republican ww2 vet father would have a hard time facing what this world has become, and it always made me feel sad for him when his illusions were proven false, or his trust was breached- He would have never have been able to embrace this bull shit- even as stubborn as he was. And that might have killed him in itself.

Be bold when you can- even if the feathers get ruffled, what is the use of family if we have to 'be' something we are not in order to 'be accepted, and loved'?-

It's lonely to live this way- but i'm sick of being a cardboard cut-out stand in for who 'they' want me to be- I won't shove it in their face, but neither will i be silenced from speaking my truth, with as much grace, and honesty as i can.

i wish you well- and sorry if i sounded accusatory
blu

[meganmonkey]

16. Maybe next time you should smoke a big bowl

before you go? :smoke:

(that's what I do sometimes when we hang out with mistermonkey's relatives)

[PA Democrat]

17. Hubby told me this morning that one of our dear RW

relatives informed him that he decorated his Christmas tree this year in red white and blue lights. Good thing I wasn't in the room because I would have inquired whether his underoos had US flags all over them as well, and if the ornaments on his tree were red white & blue miniature Tomahawk missiles.

:puke:

[zulchzulu]

22. Ask the relative how many of the ornaments were made in China...

I hear they make great, cheap US flags in China and those "Support The Troops" magnets from Viet Nam are just fantastic!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

18. Just talked to two Bush-bots who said they like him just as much as ever..

On the positive side, one of thier spouses said "Nobody likes Bush anymore, do they?" before she chimed in and said she liked him as much as ever.

[SharonAnn]

20. Well, I like him as much as ever. My opinion hasn't changed.

I still hate him, everything he stands for, and the horse he rode in on. I think he's a thief, a sociopath, and a liar.

[Tactical Progressive]

19. You can top that

Since it seems that she has put all of her eggs in the basket of protection-from-terrorism, and her sense of Bush's 'brilliant' job at it, tell her that Bush was warned six ways to Sunday that 9/11 was coming all throughout 2001 - from the CIA repeatedly, from intelligence agencies around the world, from the Clinton administration pointedly as they were handing over power, from experts in his own administration, and from a huge national security study that painted exactly that picture and what to start doing about it - and he purposely ignored every single bit of it.

Make the case simply that Bush and Cheney left America open to attack in 2001, and that they did it intentionally because they had plans to invade Iraq from the start and they needed a reason for an angry America to let them.

Tell her that every single fact points to that, and that's why Bush and Cheney blocked, stalled and ultimately refused to testify to the 9/11 commission under oath. The World Trade Center would never have come crashing down if Clinton, Gore, McCain or even Gary Bauer had been President in 2001. 3000 Americans ended up dead on 9/11 specifically because of Bush and Cheney and what they did. That's how they protected America.

Explain all of this calmly, and while you know it won't change her mind it may plant something there that may help her think past the propaganda. It seems to me that if someone is anchored on one hard point, then you have to hit that point head on. If she wants to put all her faith in that basket, at least she should be made aware of what's really in the basket.

[zulchzulu]

21. Unless you are armed with real facts, it's pointless to even argue

Perhaps mentioning how the war in Iraq has cost half a trillion dollars so far, ask the person how many zeros is in a trillion. (There are 12). Then ask if it was worth destabilizing the area, turning Iraq into a muslim fundamentalist state with over 50,000 injured soldiers, almost 2,300 dead soliders and upwards of 30,000 dead Iraqis?

Ask the person (if an aging parent) if they understand the recent new Medicare and healthcare changes?

Anyway, you have to be armed with facts...not platitudes. As soon as they mention the word "Clinton", simply tell them they are out of ammo.

Based on your mother's statement about Chimpy being the best President since Lincoln, it's apparent she listens to Rush and/or feeds at the Faux Snooze pig troff. Get her to watch "Outfoxed" and ask her what she thinks about the movie.

I have parents who are Repuglicans and have made a great effort to completely avoid politics with them...they seem to think it's like a country club membership...and after many times in the past where I tried to discuss the issues, it has basically become an effort I don't care to plunge into.

[tridim]

23. Well that's really the problem

Based on issues like Medicare and other social issues they're right down the middle and slightly left leaning. It's all about pride (GOP pride just baffles me, how could anyone be proud of people like * and Delay?) and terra with them. They're also old-media all the way. If something is printed on the Net, even on an traditional-media's online site, it's not true according to them. I think Rush teaches that line of BS.

Of course the other big problem is I can barely even start to talk about this stuff with them because of the "no politics rule". As I said before I'm just going to let them absorb the upcoming shit-storm of 06. It's going to be real hard (even for Faux) to ignore the indictments.

[zulchzulu]

27. There is hope though

I have some in-laws that were rabid GOP freaks in the past who have seen the light and are now Dems...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. It's ironic, isn't it, that people in KANSAS are so terrified of terror

:eyes:

Terror of terrorism seems to increase in inverse proportion to a person's proximity to an actual target.

[GumboYaYa]

24. Not so sad as just frustrating.....

My stepdad is a hard core winger. He likes to drag me into arguments that he can't finish and I finsish them, quite strongly sometimes. My mom has asked us not to argue and I try to comply.

This Chrsitmas he kept trying to drag me into an argument over the war and I kept responding that I think it is unfortunate people on both sides of the issue use didactic language to paint their opponents as evil people. I made the point many times that in our hearts most people are basically seeking the same things and all we really disagree about are the tactics for getting there. Essentially, most people, Republican and Democrat, are good people with the best interests of the country at heart.

I thought that was the best way to difuse the potential fights and it worked. He agreed with me over and over when I would say that. Nevertheless, he is an old army guy. He supports the war and can't even hear any other opinions on it without getting angry.

So after all that talk about non-didactic language, he asks me, "would you ever support the American troops in any war?"

In a moment of frustration I unloaded on him about not listening to a word I said. We support the troops at least as much as him because we don't want them to die needlessly. He is just stupid to ask the question that way after all the conversations we had just had.

My mom jumped in (it really isn't that she doesn't like arguing, it's just that she doesn't likle me making her hubby look stupid) and broke it up. They stayed in a hotel that night.

[barbtries]

25. i can't top it

but i do sympathize. last week my oldest brother, the one who demonstrated against the vietnam war and had huge fights with my mother over it, called. i mentioned that i'm happy because my son got kicked out of the navy before he had to go to the war, which i am very much against.

to my utter shock and horror my brother said, "if you'd lost a kid in the WTC you wouldn't be."

my own brother a zenophobic republican swallowing fox news whole. insisting that iraq and 9/11 are related, and obviously not bemoaning the huge loss of life that has commenced in iraq since we invaded and occupied. he's glad we're "being protected."

i changed the subject - when my brother expresses an opinion it is never offered as less than absolute fact, and i know he cannot change my mind. i'm considering emailing him links that might enlighten him to the reality of what is happening but truthfully i doubt he'd ever check it out.

until this president, nixon was the only president i pretty much actively hated. when i was 18 i remember driving to my mother's house specifically for the satisfaction of watching him resign . my mother cried and said he was the best president we'd ever had. so, i have an inkling of how you must have felt when your mother said that.

which by the way i'm still shaking my head at what your mother said...:)

[Nutmegger]

29. Can't top that

But my aunt continue to foam at the mouth when anyone disagrees with the "war". We supposedly have a rule not to talk politics but that never seemed to work for us. My parents always taught me to question the authority so when she goes on about how Bush is spreading "freedom and democracy", I have a sudden urge to rebuke her. She's not political though and just gets tidbits from the MSM.

[AtomicKitten]

30. I'm sorry for the discord within you family.

My parents are ultra-Republican but have stopped short of the glowing review your folks have given. Your head must still be spinning!

[laugle]

31. If you want to have a good time the rule is;

never talk about religion or politics.

If I dared to talk about either with my 84 year old dad, the men in the white coats would have to come to take my away.

He thinks Bush is a good man because he goes to church. We are Jewish! Go figure!!

[radfringe]

33. I thought pigs were flying....

my dad makes Limbaugh look liberal.. My mom has become more conservative over the years. Both are registered as independents for various reasons. both voted for bush* twice - mainly because of the tax cut issues....

on Friday night - (12/23) we were having dinner at my brother's house and I swear pigs were flying outside...

BOTH parents said they thought bush* was the WORST pResident they have ever seen.

later that evening on the drive home - both said they thought the gas/fuel hikes after Katrina were not necessary, that it was gouging by energy companies and it was still going on (they got their heating gas bill earlier that week). Both are pissed off at the REPUBLICAN congress for not investigating into this more seriously.

While my dad still agrees with the reasons (i.e lies) for invading
Iraq - mainly because "everyone else in the world believed Saddam had WMDs" - he does think it was poorly executed - (i.e. not enough troops/equipment and no real plan). Meanwhile, while he agrees that there is no real exit plan, he does maintain we will be in Iraq for many many years and that a sudden withdrawal will probably lead to civil war.

On wiretapping - dad's defense is "Clinton did it too". Me: "so? does it make it right? Clinton got a blowjob and lied about it - does that mean bush* can get a blowjob and lie about it too?"

While neither are converts to the "left" - there are definite cracks emerging.

[Skittles]

34. let it go, tridim

I know it is painful but do NOT give that bastard bush the power to divide you from your family

[Javaman]

35. My sister, who was once an active kool-ade drinker...

and probably owned some of their stock, was the kind of moron* supporter that was all behind morons* SS reform bullshit, was a proud wearer of a purple heart band-ade (and her hubby is a Viet Nam Vet who is against moron*, go figure) finally realized that moron* is, well, a moron*.

For the last 4 years we haven't spoken except for a few email battles. Each time I will defeat her with facts and she would come back with something about Clinton. Usual right wing hack tactic.

Well lo and behold, I spoke to my other sister and she told me that, sis, thinks moron* is a complete failure. I didn't go into details, but I'm curious as to what changed her mind.

If my sister can change, I believe that there is an actual seismic shift going on in politics.

Speaking of the Purple Heart Band-ade Brigade idiots, I wonder what happened to that fat fuck woman at the RNC that was blathering on and on, on TV sporting the purple heart band-ade, (I'm sure you all know the one I'm talking about) I wonder now how she feels knowing that moron* is spying on us and listens to our calls?

[welshTerrier2]

36. probably all pointless but ...

your mom sounds like she's firmly entrenched in the "don't confuse me with the facts" camp ...

but, rather than argue in terms of good versus bad, lay a few of these on her:

bush has turned record budget surpluses into record deficits
she wants to give him credit because there have not been "terrorist attacks" since 9/11 but the 9/11 commission that bush appointed said that virtually none of its most critical recommendations to protect the country has been implemented
bush campaigned on a platform to bring the country together - we have not been more divided since the Civil War
45 million Americans have no health coverage
federal response to Katrina was just barely better than non-existent
jobs continue to drain away to India and China
under bush, China now holds huge amounts of US debt
the US has alienated many of its long-term allies in "old Europe"
bush has shown no incentive to push for alternative energy sources
bush and republicans across the country are being investigated for an endless parade of crimes

that's enough for starters ...

the usual counterarguments are vagueries like "bush seems so sincere" or "bush is a real fighter who won't let 'them' walk all over us" ...

these arguments never can hold up against the truth ... if your mom "trusts" bush because of these arguments, that's fine ... but it's not fine to ignore the reality that he has failed in virtually every task ... you'll never succeed in convincing those with "blind faith" that their faith is misplaced ... but the prood is in the pudding ... your mom would not do a good job listing the successes bush has had ... that's where her arguments are the most vulnerable ...