Oh good grief. Howard Zinn is accusing Dean of being too silent.

[madfloridian]

Some days you just can't win at all. Some weeks you get called treasonous, told to shut up by your own party....while Howard Zinn says you have been the silent leader.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/As_Iraq_votes_liberal_historian_looks_1215.html

Zinn: If I were Nancy Pelosi I would certainly say to my fellow Democrats, "If we want to win the next election we better get with the American people, they're way ahead of us. The American people are forthrightly against the war and we're forthrightly about ." The American people are much more bold and forthright. If I were any Democratic leader, if I were Howard Dean - who unfortunately has been the kind of silent head of the Democratic National Committee - I would say to my fellow Democrats, wake up. If you don't give the American people what the American people want, then you are going to go down in history as a party that loses and loses and loses.

Some weeks you just can't win for losing.
:shrug: :shrug:

[emulatorloo]

1. Sounds like about half the DU posts I read

Guess Zinn isn't paying attention.

Any way Go Howard.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

2. i respect zinn and agree ..it should be kicked up a notch imho...nt

[madfloridian]

4. Dean just got slapped down for NOT being silent.

Hey, I'm with you on wanting him to speak out. Maybe we are agreeing on that. I am just surprised Zinn was not aware.

[Tom Rinaldo]

9. Timing is everything

Either people are going to need a little trust in Dean and his judgment, or they can outright fight against him, or they are being back seat Party drivers. Dean is on top of the nation wide Party organization right now. There are advantages to holding that position but it comes at a price also. If people wanted Howard to be totally free to speak out strongly about every issue of importance from a fiercely independent perspective, than they should never have supported him taking the DNC post in the first place. He hasn't even been there a year yet. Part of what Dean needs to do to turn our Party around is work closely with officials in all of the State Democratic Parties, and a lot of those Parties are in States where media Dean bashing seldom gets challenged by conventional wisdom. If Dean becomes the news too much of the time it impairs his ability to work closely with all Democrats in many Republican leaning States.

Dean doesn't have to shut up, but Dean HASN'T shut up. What he can't do however is become the spear head spokesperson for insurgency inside the Democratic Party. Not if he wants to be effective across a broad spectrum working inside the Democratic Party. And being effective working with a broad spectrum inside the Democratic Party is exactly what I want Dean to be. We only get to install one DNC Chairperson. We can prop up any number of potential spokespersons on soap boxes to make rhetorical points. Give Dean the Time he needs to bring about grass roots reforms inside the Democratic Party, to open it up to new voices. That is more important than Dean using his own voice more now. And no I'm sorry, sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes you have to sacrifice something to get something else more important. I am absolutely thrilled that Dean became DNC Chair. I knew he would have to make some compromises to secure that position, but getting him in place was worth it. Let him do his work. Ask me again in two years if the trade off was worth it. I think I will say yes.

[madfloridian]

11. I am starting to change my mind on this crap, Tom.

It is a bunch of baloney that the people in red states are afraid of Dean. No, they are not.

When he went to MS they planned for 500 got about a 1000, and that happens a lot.

It is the cowardly leaders who are afraid to be seen with him, ones like my Bill Nelson...because they want to appeal more to Republicans than Democrats.

It is not the people in red states who are cowardly and afraid of Dean...it is their cowardly leaders.

If the party leaders don't want to lead, I am ready for them to let someone else speak out.

My mind is changing rapidly on this. I talked to 3 more senate offices today about the war...I got zilch. Nothing. No opinion.

[Tom Rinaldo]

14. We may not disagree so much MF

The point that I was trying to make is that Dean is being well accepted at the State level all around the Nation, and he wants to keep it that way. And Dean hasn't shut up about things that he believes in. However he exercises political judgment about how often he steps front and center into the cross hairs of the National Right Wing Media. Trust Dean more is my basic point. Give him credit for knowing there is an important goal he is moving toward and that there are mines laid against him on the road leading to it that should be avoided if possible while still moving forward.

I don't criticize Dean for speaking out too much. I don't criticize Dean for speaking out too little. I figure he has a job to do and he knows how to do it, taking everything into consideration. He won't be perfect because he is human, but I trust him to pick his moments.

[madfloridian]

24. We agree on some. Not on other stuff.

I think the concerted effort to keep the voices of the people from being heard has begun. The other day when Dean spoke out against the war....polls on CNN and MSNBC were overwhelmingly in favor of what he said..I mean in the 70% and higher.

I think if the house and senate leaders are not going to take a stand on the war issue, if they refuse to listen to the anti-war voices...then we need someone to stand up and bring on the dialogue.

Dean should not be spoken to like a child who needs to stay in his place. Neither should we. That is what is coming across here....I know you don't mean it that way.

[Angry Girl]

3. I have to agree with Mr. Zinn

Where are the impassioned, rousing speeches that Malcolm X and Martin Luther King (thank you, Cora) used to give? Or even Kennedy? Where are the brave politicians who would get ANGRY and FIGHT for the people, the poor, the downtrodden? Where are these leaders? Those who would dare call out bullshit when they see it? Not like these Democracy-Lite assholes we have today, sitting in their air-conditioned offices before they rush off to vacation in their country homes. These so-called leaders are all weak and feeble and gutless and don't inspire anyone.

Dean started out on the right foot and then all the other Dems jumped on him and told him to tone it down. And, of course, he did.

[madfloridian]

5. Well, actually I agree that Dean should not be silent.

Anyone want to talk to the other Democrats on that issue? And why isn't a smart person like Zinn aware of the media and party and GOP attacks on this man? Does he live in our reality?

[Warpy]

6. It sounds like Zinn is going after the wrong guy

and needs to put his way with words into play against all the pursed lipped ladies in Congress who try to cut Dean off at the knees whenever he opens his mouth and tells the truth.

Dean is doing just fine. He's telling the truth that needs to be told. The problem are the scared little bunny rabbits who are afraid he's gonna queer their soft deal in Congress, make them do some actual WORK.

[RaulGroom]

7. I see Zinn's point

"Radical" Democrats like Dean are always trying to square the circle by jettisoning just enough of the Beltway consensus to differentiate themselves. A wholesale attempt to really speak the truth has really never been attempted.

Don't expect it anytime soon, either.

[madfloridian]

8. In what reality do you live this week?

The same one Zinn is in?

Are you actually unaware of what is going on?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

19. Dean has been getting blasted for speaking out. Zinn is unaware of that?

Please explain to me why it is acting like an ass to demand that those who speak out on any side of the aisle be informed?

How can Zinn not know what has gone on this week? You don't sound very aware of it either.

So go ahead and call me an ass, I will continue to ask they be informed before speaking out.

[radio4progressives]

34. Dean isn't a Radical - Dean is really a Centrist / Moderate

He's never been a radical, the MSM has painted him that way, and so have a certain elite faction of a certain party that shall not be named here, and the extreme right wing has painted him as radical, but he's always been a Fiscal Conservative, but with a Populist pursuasion, it's the populist part of him that certain people (who shall not be named)want to paint him as a left fring lunatic.

That's just flat out wrong, imo.

[shance]

10. Let me understand....Democrats like Pemeroy tell the Governor to "shut up"

and then we have Mr. Zinn, who's work I respect, calling Governor Dean the "silent head of the DNC"?

Where has Mr. Zinn been?

And which is it folks? Dean speaks out, he's criticized. Dean backs off, he's criticized. Is it any wonder our good leaders get discouraged by such two sided attacks?

What concerns me about statements like this other than their inaccuracy, is the lack of acknowledgement and credit for individuals who are speaking out like Governor Dean, and when they DO speak out, are being told NOT TO by those supposedly who are on their side.

Now Mr. Zinn, who either has been in Antartica on a global warming expedition, does not turn on the news or use the internet, has apparently not been keeping up with the news? Perhaps he is simply uninformed, however, if so, why make such a comment?

Why is he criticizing one of the few Democrats who IS speaking out? That is curious to me.

I tried to find contact information to respond to Mr. Zinn's comment, unfortunately I could not find any.

This is very disappointing and a little baffling frankly.

Thanks for posting Floridian.

[madfloridian]

12. You are welcome, and I am equally puzzled and sad.

:shrug:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

15. Contact info for Zinn - Boston U

Zinn, Howard
Academic rank Professor Emeritus --RETIRED--
Department CAS Political Science
Office address 232 Bay State Road
Office phone [phone]
Deptid 20212
Account info
Alias hzinn
Email [email protected]

[incapsulated]

13. What rubbish

Dean is hardly a "silent chair". And since when does Zinn know exactly what the American people want? Their views on the war are a lot more complicated than they are "forthrightly against the war". Actually, they are not. They want a plan to get out but they aren't in favor of the "out now" scenario, either.

Dean is working on getting some kind of Democratic plan that most can rally around. That is difficult enough, given the fact that elected officials in the party have decided to go all over the map on the issue.

He can't issue fatwas on Iraq to the party. He isn't Zinn's monkey, either. He has a job to do and I think he's doing it well.

[radio4progressives]

16. Let it go - Zinn is a Leftist - Howard Dean is a Centrist - ok?

Naturally, he's gonna be critical of Dean's silence and/or self censorship.


In fact, Zinn helps put Dean in a more accurate Centrist light.

If only that kind of criticism would be allowed to filter through the MSM - but the MSM never brings on GENUINE Leftists - (we can't let the public have an honest perspective and understanding of what a true leftist is, we have to pretend that a real 'centrist/moderate' is a leftist, in order to keep shifting Amerikan politiks RIGHTWARD)

[madfloridian]

17. Let what go? Dean has not been silent. Zinn does not seem aware.

Zinn has a right to say what he wants, but I have a right to point out that he seems not to be aware of all the hate-filled rhetoric toward Dean because he spoke out.

It is not fair, it is outrageous that a man of Zinn's stature would not be aware of this week.

[radio4progressives]

28. I think you misunderstand me...

I'm not saying you shouldn't be concerned, or shouldn't speak out about what you see as unfair criticism.

I'm suggesting, that criticism (on this point) from a bona-fide Leftist HELPS Dean's image, especially with moderates.

In other words, you and I know that Dean is no "lefty" - he never was.

Howard Dean is a Centrist in the *truest* sense of the word, (a good thing) not in the bullshit way that inside-the-beltway people want to define as "moderate" or "centrist" (which is really RIGHT WING).

I'm suggesting that if a GENUINE LEFTIST criticizes a GENUINE CENTRIST for not being "Left" enough .. (on a very important level that's exactly what Zinn is doing) this only helps Dean's image, by correcting the perception (created by certain people that will not be mentioned here, the Right Wing Noise machine and the MSM) that somehow Dean is some sort of 'Left Fringe Lunatic' - (when you and I know, Dean is no such thing) this helps him and the DNC.

Lefty's are smart enough to recognize what this is about, and it will not hurt Dean's image among this group - I mean, to me Howard Zinn is late in the game, he's not saying anything that Lefty's haven't been griping to each other (among ourselves) for months now!

It's that old axion the MSM uses a lot, "if both the right and the left are attacking us, i must be doing something right"..

does this help clarify?

[madfloridian]

29. Thanks for trying to clarify. I am clarifying he hasn't been silent.

That is what I am trying to point out. It is really not about right or left, it is about the fact that Zinn should be totally aware of how many times Dean has been put in his place because he WAS speaking out.

I am not arguing, I like Zinn just fine. I just found the statement totally odd this week with all the attacks still going on. It seemed out of place.

[radio4progressives]

32. I agree - Zinn's timing is a "bit off " to say the least! n/t

[shance]

20. What does that have to do with it RFP? Being accurate and truthful

knows no "leftist" or "centrist" labeling.

Zinn was not only inaccurate, in my opinion, he insulted someone within the Democratic party who is actively speaking out on the same issues Zinn is criticizing him for. Its a bit 'absurd', if I may use Zinn's terminology. I respect Zinn, but he needs to check his facts and consider those who are trying to fight the good fight. They are not his competition, they are his allies. Baffles me when various "leftists" criticize others telling the truth.

I think we are better served to focus our criticism on those in this Administration who are lying and bankrupting our nation.

[radio4progressives]

30. See post #28 ...

Dean has been truthful when speaking truth to the choir, but out of political necessity - Dean is forced to mince his words when addressing the MSM or in forums where others that will report to the MSM.

Zinn is a hard core Leftist, and he doesn't want ANY mincing of words about the war - especially to the MSM - Dean said 'now that we're there, we're going to have to see this through' (paraprasing) Zinn's taking him to task on that. that's how i read it anyway...

to me, it's much ado about nothing really,

[madfloridian]

33. Dean's interview in San Antonio that was heard round the world..

according to the station there. It was a week ago Monday, and he said the war was not winnable, he compared it to Vietnam, the way everyone kept saying oh just a little longer...and thousands more died because we were stubborn then he said.

So I have a feeling Zinn's timing is off, and he is unaware of the interview. Maybe I will find the audio and share it with him

It is a perfect example of someone telling the truth, and the hounds of darkness being released. He should be aware of that.

I get lectured and accused of being a purist, which I am not. But I do know what is going on. I don't mind that he is a purist, I just want him to be fair.

[madfloridian]

23. Could you please clarify what you said?

I am being sincere here. You also seem unaware of the horrible attacks on Dean because he compared the Iraq war to Vietman, as did Zinn...and Dean said we were too stubborn to admit we were wrong.

So why are you telling me to let it go? I am saying awareness counts when someone just got blasted into space for speaking out.

Your comments sound as though you are admonishing me not to care that Zinn is making it sound as though Dean did not speak out.

Yeh, I would like to understand.

[radio4progressives]

31. again, you misunderstand me .. please see #28

[lostnfound]

25. That's exactly correct. And I love BOTH Zinn and Dean.

We don't need happy harmony on all counts. Getting MSM coverage of the views of people like Zinn -- routinely -- would make a world of difference.

[madfloridian]

26. No, not my point. I won't let this go uncontested.

The point I made was that Zinn said Dean had been silent. That is not true. Why should I let that statement go without questioning it?

I will repost all the things Dean has said, all the lectures, and all the attacks if you wish....but stop evading the question.

Is Howard Zinn not aware of what Dean has been doing.

Why should I let it go? I am asking a fair question.

[lostnfound]

36. I do not know if Zinn is aware of what Dean has been doing.

The man doesn't live in 'the politics of the week', he lives in 'the politics of the century', if you know what I mean.

I doubt that Dean minds what was a very mild criticism from Zinn, anyway. Why would he? It won't be on the evening news. And I was merely agreeing with the poster who said that it would be nice if people like Zinn COULD be heard on MSM so that Dean would be duly recognized as the very sensible moderate that he is, and not as a firebrand radical which he is NOT.

In Dean's case, I use the term 'moderate' in its most positive sense.

I am glad that you posted the thread because I found it interesting that two of my heroes are momentarily somewhat at odds.

Was it a fair comment? Perhaps not. But in comparison to Howard Zinn, who speaks against war in every public comment he ever makes, anyone would be considered 'quiet'.

[madfloridian]

37. At odds on what? I am questioning a sentence...one sentence.

Howard Dean and Howard Zinn...most like never the twain shall except they both care about the country. They view it in two ways, they are both good men.

I am questioning one sentence by Zinn, because it is unfair to say this when there are about 100 pages of attacks on Dean because he DID speak out.

This is the sentence.

If I were any Democratic leader, if I were Howard Dean - who unfortunately has been the kind of silent head of the Democratic National Committee - I would say to my fellow Democrats, wake up.

Howard Dean just did that, and he is still recovering. Then he can go out and make another statement and be attacked.

I think it unfair of Zinn to say "who unfortunately has been the kind of silent head.

No, he has not been silent. If Zinn does not know it, we should tell him.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. I agree

Make up your mind. :crazy: Dean is a party chairman. Mostly what he's supposed to do is help with fundraising and things like that. Zinn should ask more Congress and Senate democrats to speak up as well. Some have been doing pretty well lately like Kerry and Feingold and Reid.

[FreedomAngel82]

22. I also wanted to add

that it's probably easier said than done. Especially with the rightwing media.

[madfloridian]

27. I am seeing this thread turning against me for questioning Zinn.

Dean spoke out on Iraq, I don't think some of you posting in this thread are aware of the last week and a half?

I will not back down because you tell me to do so. Zinn said Dean has been a silent chair. That is not a true statement. Dean got viciously attacked for saying things about Iraq...like Vietnam...we need to get our reserves and guard out now...phase out.

I am very offended that this is being turned on me when Zinn is wrong. This has happened to me once before, and it is not fair.

If Zinn is not aware of what is going on in the party, perhaps he should research on the terms "howard dean" iraq, vietnam, traitor, hanged...and other such terms. He said Dean had been silent, he was wrong.

[radio4progressives]

35. i'm not turning against you, just trying provide a little perspective

at least that was my intention. i'm sorry if i have not made myself clear.

with that, i bid this thread adeu...