41 million down the toilet and all you talk about is Skulls and Botox?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

I've done my best to bite my tongue and stick to issues in this forum, but I am truly sick of people posting about Kerry's alleged use of Botox and his fraternity.

Yeah yeah yeah I know...it's secretive and that is not good and besides until he responds then everything we say about it MUST be true.

I treated Howard Dean's supporters with sympathy last night, but apparently those Dean supporters I KNOW to be decent people and formidable debaters are not showing up on these slanderous threads and asking their fellow supporters to temper their ridiculous comments.

People would never DARE mock a person for having survived the threat of cancer but they are slimy enough to do it here?

Sorry NO PASS.

Apparently some people forget the lesson we were taught with AL GORE..and that is...anything done on the left in order to alter the outcome will be adopted by the right and they will use the fact that a presumed liberal said it to validate the point.

To people spreading rumors, innuendos and downright LIES simply so that your failing candidate who CLAIMED he was organized in two states and wasn't can prevail, all I can say is....


Enjoy four more years of the moron in the White House right now.

America is looking at TRILLIONS of dollars in domestic debt in the coming years and I don't know if a guy that blows 41 million on two states and sits out the ones where people actually live DESERVES the chance to correct this downhill slide.

[XanaDUer]

1. Those cancer threads really got to me...

Yeah, if Botox is it, then bring it on.

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

3. You want Bring em On? Here u go.

Still think this war was a good idea?

http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

72. Add 7 more.

[ibegurpard]

2. Sorry, I missed the cancer threads.

Way over the line.
I dislike Kerry intensely but I'm not going there.

[Trajan]

4. YEA verily NSMA ...

WHY do the weak-minded grab the least worthy arguments and parade them like they are some morbid trophy ? ...

Botox ? .... Skull and Bones ? ...

Hell: ... what about HAIRDOOS and FAVORITE COLORS ? ..

[Duncan Grant]

38. and don't forget the "wives" because they're worth a good kick or two.

Honestly, the insinuations that pass as legitimate arguement around here amaze me.

(Hairdoos should electable and parted on the left. Favorite colors should be red, white, and blue - in that order.)

[KittyWampus]

5. My Father Joined The Only Fraternity That Was Integrated In The 50's

It says a lot about a person what group they choose to join and associate themselves with.

Deciding to get Botox injected into ones face indicates that Kerry is not at ease with his own face.

That is my assessment which others may not agree with but I have a right to it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Reagan said it better than you. He said,

"It's the public's right to be stupid."

[KittyWampus]

16. How Does Reagan's Quote Address My Comments?

I pointed out that:

what groups one chooses to join says something about one's character.
what one does with one's own body says something about one's self confidence and self acceptance or lack thereof.

[aquart]

51. Botox means you don't want to be subject to age discrimination.

Many men are being forced to it as well as women.

Kerry is auditioning for a job that will age a man in dog years. He needs to LOOK like he's ready for the fight, not just feel it.

I have many disagreements with Kerry but this one is beyond petty.

[KittyWampus]

54. I Think It's Petty To Say That Kerry Didn't Look Up To Being President

because he had wrinkles.

If you can't project competence without botox... you have a problem.

Jeez, even Lieberman doesn't get botox.

[Killarney]

6. Amen.

The cancer posts are the lowest of the low.

And who gives a flying f if he got botox or not.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. they're sad attacks

And I agree with your analysis, unfortunately, you'll never convince many others on this board to agree with you.

To them, Howard Dean IS the democratic party.

[jenk]

9. they're just taking some parting shots

dean won't be around much longer

[Cleita]

24. That's too bad that you want Dean gone.

IMHO he was the candidate who would've brought the nation universal health care. The rest of the candidates talk about it, but Doctor Dean would have made sure it happened. When you find yourself with twenty-five thousand dollars worth of medical bills you can't pay for, think about what could have been.

[oasis]

10. Give 'em hell. (eom)

[arewethereyet]

12. its really only 38 million according to Oreilly

he's said to have 3 mil left.

true ? who knows. reasonable ? yes, given the realities.

[onehandle]

13. It's not just the Dean folks...

It's not any candidates' particular folks. Just foolishness.

I often wish that the general public knew what we know.

More often, I'm glad that they Never read a word in online forums.

[JI7]

14. we can't do much about it

if people want to attack him for these things there isn't much we can do.

[Nazgul35]

15. me thinks you doth protest too much...

your candidate is the front runner now....

When mine was the front runner, the same kind of nonsense was perpetrated upon him....

Right now you have violated the rules by attacking an entire group of supporters for the behavior of a few....

Perhaps the Dean supporters, along with the other candidate's supporters, have learned to stay away from such threads and not get sucked into such nonsense debates....

I would also recommend that you research the archives from....oh, I don't know...let's say august 2003 to january 2004...see what you turn up...

i'm sure you can locate the many times you spoke out against those who attacked other candidates from the Kerry side...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. And when the nonsense was perpetrated, I had the decency to comment

and bring it back to issues, whether it was Park avenue or Judy Dean. I tailored this to the people posting the tripe so if it pleases the mods it will last and if it doesn't it won't.

I have done my best to stop frivolous attacks on candidates for bullshit reasons and I think most would agree on that.

[joshcryer]

20. Thank you.

Some sensiblity here.

[sistersofmercy]

17. NSMA, I just about give up as well

I have tried hard to be nice and decent. I have congratulated when appropriate and offered my sympathy and encouragement. I just don't get it!

[fishnfla]

18. All that bread is just toast now

Dean is DOA. I saw a Michigan poll at TPM, Kerry 37-Dean 14.

[Duncan Grant]

21. This Dean supporter called them on it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=227812&mesg_id=228667&page=

Your point is well taken NSMA! I appreciate your posts yesterday about rubbing salt into the wounds. Just trying to return the favor.

And to all those Dean supporters out there...you do no one any favors in a personal attack on Kerry. In fact, you make the good Doctor look bad. Just my .02 cents. :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Thanks and you are one of the very few

For your sake I hope his new approach works ..YOU DESERVE as much. When this is all over we have a choice..the presumptive nominee or four more years. I don't care for Dean but I did contribute and will TAKE him over 4 more years.

[madrchsod]

22. ya it`s kind`a nutty around here

i thought we were fighting the republicans,oh well silly me ,i guess that`s why i`m a hamm man..

[Maddy McCall]

23. NSMA, I hate that Kerry is being ripped apart by the same folks here

why were ripping apart my candidate, until they decided he was no longer a threat to their candidate.

Oh, and there was that disgusting thread insinuating that Clark had cancer ("he looks so ill and pasty") and therefore must not be well enough for the presidency. :eyes:

Anyway, best luck in dealing with this mentality. :hug:

[Amager]

26. I just shake my head at all the attacks I've seen here this week over

the Botox. And that silly Skull and Bones fraternity from 30 years ago?? What nonsense. It just makes people look like sore losers and childish.

I feel like I walked into a Jr High school today.

[Bad Thoughts]

27. Forty-one million hard earned dollars. eom.

[Hoppin_Mad]

28. The polls showing Kerry's unpopularity here ARE hard to take

I can understand why you're hurt and upset.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=228564


Try posting something good about Kerry. Maybe you'll change some hearts and minds

What you just posted sure won't

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Hurt and upset my ass. I have posted good things about Kerry

They are promptly hijacked by Skulls and Botox.

Try using facts to rebut me....

[Catholic Sensation]

36. Are you talking about the poll

that shows Dean's unfavorable rating is 19% higher than his favorable rating?

[Myra]

29. I totally agree with what you've said nothingshocksmeanymore

The cancer/botox threads-I won't touch.
Too low.

I do however think the Skull and Bones issue is legit.
It's not a rumor; it's not a benign fun frat.
It's an elite power broker club, and the members take
pledges of loyalty that can undermine other loyalties.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. I think the secrets in Dean gubernatorial records are a fucking LOT MORE

relevent to the issue of democracy than a fraternity.

[Maddy McCall]

35. I've been saying that for MONTHS

Been told that it's just fault-finding--"Can't you find something better to criticize him for? That's a non-issue."

Having worked in state government, I KNOW that it is very much an issue when an executive leaves office and seals his record--and seals them long enough that no one will get a look inside until after his potential 8-yr. presidency.

[RetroLounge]

49. of course you do

:eyes:

[Myra]

60. I have a problem with the sealed gubernatorial records as well.

Agreed again.

But S&B is far more than a "fraternity."
If you're interested I recommend Kevin Phillips book "American Dynasty." He speaks of it at length.

Exerpts are at:

http://www.americandynasty.net/excerpts.htm

"If Samuel P. Bush made money and connections in World War I, which he did, Walker made more of each. Afterward, he was wooed in 1919 by Averell Harriman to run an ambitious set of investments about to be cobbled together in the postwar political maelstrom of 1920s Germany and Russia. Over two decades, father-in-law Walker helped steer Prescott Bush to the top of what became the Brown Brothers Harriman of midcenturyórich, full of Yale Skull and Bonesmen, London-linked, politically influential, and intimately wired through several of its top partners to the postwar birthing of the CIA.
...
Within the upper tier of prep schools and colleges, clubs and secret societies were considered the innermost sanctum...At Yale, ìthe most legendary of all college clubs was Skull and Bones. To be tapped by Bones in that era was akin to canonization....The clocks were set five minutes fast to symbolize that Bonesmen started life a leg up.
...
That was the elite....I always had it in mind, even to this day, that I was not really a part of that. That three generations of Bushes have been ìpart of thatî is central to the familyís ascent.
...Skull and Bones) fit well, thereby unfolding a kind of red carpet on which they could later walk comfortably through the upper echelons of American life.
...
The career benefits of Groton, AUV at Andover, and Skull and Bones were enormous, as the Bushes would discover in everything from bull and bear to cloak-and-dagger. Yet in some ways, the products of such schools were unsuited for the battlefields of elective politics. Cyril Connolly, an English Old Etonian, observed that these institutions tended to instill a state of permanent adolescence in their alumni, arresting aspects of personal development and extending a taste for wine, song, pranks, initiations, oaths of secrecy, inner sanctums, and other rites of loyalty far into middle age...
Yale history professor Gaddis Smith has observed that ìYale has influenced the CIA more than any other university, giving the CIA the atmosphere of a class reunion."


And on and on.
(Note, the weird text characters are from the website.)

[Maddy McCall]

65. FACT: Dean sealed his records before running for President for so long

that no one would get a look inside until after his presidency would have ended.

He undertook this action as an ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE to HIDE HIS TRACKS.

[ulysses]

31. yes, well...

but apparently those Dean supporters I KNOW to be decent people and formidable debaters are not showing up on these slanderous threads and asking their fellow supporters to temper their ridiculous comments.

The shit flows quite freely in both directions, and personally, I've decided that kids will be kids - I don't give much of a flying damn any more. Honestly, it's not my problem.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. I know....

and I am sorry if I offended you or ANY of the more reasonable people who actually DO stick to issues even if we still don't agree on the candidate...I've just had it with the LOWNESS of it..on ALL ends.

Maybe we should card people.

[ulysses]

52. we're not exactly covering ourselves in glory, no.

It'd be nice if this all ended soon.

[TheDonkey]

32. Some Dean supporters are imploding just like the doctor

Some of these anti-Kerry threads are so so shameful. To Kerry is too liberal (DU?), kerry is too Bushlite, Kerry has cancer, Kerry is ugly, Kerry had botox injections, etc.

Is this what we've come too?

[Duncan Grant]

39. Agreed. True.

And the "Trippi is a con-man who stole our money" posted by Kerry supporters are equally shameful. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Like I said last night: Many of us will be very busy when the "Making Amends" threads start after the primaries.

[Nazgul35]

48. comments like this only serve

to perpetuate the very type of reaction that this thread is supposed to be so upset about....

It never stops amazing me how many people are so quick to accuse others of one type of behavior while completely unaware of the fact that they themselves are engaging in it.....

I think too many people at DU type first and think later....no matter what candidate they support...

Think of all the people who respond without correctly interpreting the original poster's text...

or better yet, they respond without all the information, eager to post a thread that is negative to any candidate but their for the simple purpose of one ups manship...

My two personal favorites are people who:

1) respond to the original post without bothering to read the thread underneath....continuing an argument that had already been settled..

2) Posting on a topic that had been discussed ad infinitum for the simple reason they are too lazy to click on the second page...or worse...scroll down the page!!!! Thus creating another round of animosity....

These things more than anything have led to the personal animosity that has grown here at DU...and this thread does nothing but continue in that same tradition here at DU of:

You guys are bad.....why are you bad....why can't you be good like us?

That really helps to heal the wounds....

Plus, I must point out... that many here seem to be under the illusion that we have some kind of security system that has thoroughly screened everyone for purity of purpose and ideological compatibility...which is one of the most idiotic things I encounter on the internet!

[Ramsey]

37. "Down the toilet"?

What evidence do you have that our contributions went "down the toilet"? They spent the money on campaigning. The Dean campaign has been in dozens of states with staff on the ground for months. That surely costs money. I don't see how that isn't as spurious and condescending an accusation as all this "Bonesman" idiocy. And how does your treating Dean supporters with "sympathy" equate with insisting that Dean supporters actually go out of their way to defend Kerry from other people's criticisms.

Please do not paint us all with your black brush. I have never called Kerry a "bonesman" or commented on his alleged aesthetic procedures, nor have I started or participated on such threads.

I'll tell you what I am sick of: being told what a loser I am because other people act like one. I am not going to show up on those "slanderous threads" and defend Kerry because I consider them beneath contempt, and not worthy of my time to even read, much less bother to waste my time replying to. Which is exactly how you should react to them. So I'll thank you not to condemn me because I won't defend your candidate from ridiculous hysteria. It's not my job to monitor the behavior of others.

Edit: forgot a word

[salinen]

44. Actually Kerry does whiten his teeth

take Botox injections, was a "Bonesman" and only served in Nam for 3 months. Anyway that's what Hannity said.

[Catholic Sensation]

50. Sean Hannity is a child

[David Zephyr]

40. I've Got My Beefs With Kerry, But Botox Isn't One of Them.

These personal, skin deep comments get us nowhere.

[frustrated_lefty]

41. NSMA, your opinion is widely respected here

Honestly, I'm just now really digging into Kerry's record because he is the presumptive front runner, if not nominee.

I would really like to be able to offer heartful support to the democratic nominee. What I've found so far on Kerry is uninspiring, and a lot of it turns me off.

The BIGGEST problem I have with his record is he waves in the wind, takes the easy path, and to my knowledge has never displayed the intestinal fortitude to stand up and take an unpopular stance based on moral conviction. When has he done the RIGHT thing, just because it was right? Iran-Contra doesn't do it for me, he let that story get buried.

So, I'm asking you quite honestly, what has your candidate done to inspire people, to motivate them, to give them faith and trust in his capacity to stand up and represent them, in his umpteen decades of being a politician?

If you can answer that well and honestly, I'll shut up about Kerry and try and go through the difficult process of re-thinking political paradigms.

[Hoppin_Mad]

42. Actually - They're talking about PNAC donations to the Kerry campaign

I don't see many diehard Kerry defenders in there.

Wonder why ?

[arcos]

47. Exactly! ---------- link here -------------

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=223379

[Trajan]

57. The Hit Man ....

Going from camp to camp, attacking each because NONE are lead by the chief of YOUR camp ....

The Hit Man: ... Attacking Clarkies one moment, Kerryites the next ... Hmmmmmmmm ... Did I miss anyone ??? ...

NBD ... Nobody But Dean ? ...

Shall we rename the party the "Deanocratic Party" .. in his exclusive honor ? ...

A little less partisan sniping on behalf of some candidate supporters would be refreshing around here ...

We ARE a party after all: ... not just a bunch of candidate partisans ...

[eileen_d]

43. It's the easiest ammunition to find about Kerry

Unlike Dean, who generates fresh ammunition daily.

(Sorry, NSMA - I don't have the "nice" hat on tonight)

[lurk_no_more]

45. I wasn't here for the cancer bash

but was for the rumors it was back, that along with the blatant attacks on Clark days before he announced then right after.

dean came in this thing swinging and at every swing his supporters were yelling swing again, then had the audacity to cry foul when the shoe was on the other foot to Terry Mac no less, now he's blown 40mil on two states he didn't win, hired a real insider of the same jib that he claims he wants to replace.

Well the hits on dean are still there, not quite as bad but still there, I personally believe he's toast and after Tuesday a lot of others will see it too, I for one feel no sympathy.

Hang tough, while Kerry isn't my #1, he's a damn good candidate and would make a great President.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

46. Just wait until Kerry's Penis Extension story breaks

It will make Clinton's penis shrivel in comparison.

Developing....

[NashVegas]

53. Skull & Bones Has Been a DU Topic for YEARS

You don't realistically expect it to get a free pass now, do you?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

61. Bush didn't get a pass - neither will Kerry

IF Kerry wants to end the talk - all he has to do is publically quit - but evidentally, Kerry is more loyal to his plutocrat frat brothers like Bush than he is to regular Americans.

Kerry is the Bob Dole of the Democratic party - and he will do as well as Bob Dole did.

[Melinda]

55. Teena, I don't know what to say.

I find myself feeling defensive here, as I feel (and operative word is "feel") that you're words are pointed at me. Yes, I'm a Dean supporter, but I am not one of those who mercilessly attacks nor denigrates the other candidates. At the same time, I'm not one who calls on other Dean supporters to curb their distasteful behaviors.

I have enough trouble being responsible for my own actions and words (as you well know), and I'm not of the mind to police or babysit others, although I do alert when I come across violations of DU's rules.

In regards the threads you mention, I've not bothered to even open them, and it's the rare occurance I open their like.

One of the reasons I joined DU to begin with was because we all hurt after President Gore's office was stolen in 2000, and this was the place to commiserate that loss and find strength to fight on for 2002 (:( ) and 2004... I never participated in the Green vs. Dem threads although I am a progressive, simply because my heart and head ached witnessing the dissension among our membership, and it drove my stress level out the door.

And I find myself abstaining from divisive threads here for the same reason.

I respect you enormously, you know this, and I know you feel the same toward me... I don't wish to cause you pain, and I don't wish to let you down by not addressing what we both know to be wrong behaviors on the part of Dean supporters, but at the same time I can't allow the wrongful behaviors of others to affect me on a personal level... and the stress and strain involved in those "fights" just emotionally drains me, which in turns effects my physical well-being.

I'll do this; I'll make an effort to look at those threads that obviously are designed to incite discontent, and I'll speak up and out at those Dean supporters who perpetuate BS as I can. And know that I am sorry if I let you down... I think the world of you and would never, ever consciously do that.

Wow, looks like I found words to say afterall. :hug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. I did my best to tailor the message to a very specific group of people

I think you know I don't consider you nor Ramsey nor several people to be in that class, but the very specific group of people starting these threads creat ill will that leaves some of us unable to contain the anger after a certain point.

There are some that simply want to push buttons...this time I pushed back.

The threads where people have legitimate issues with Kerry's war vote or his record in the senate are fair game, as are threads wherein people have legitimate issues with Dean's. That is what debate is all about..but I will no more tolerate BOTOX as a legitimate issue than I would tolerate slams against Judy Dean.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

68. Kerry is creating ill will because he is more loyal to Bush than us

It's easy - just have Kerry say somthing instead of "no comment" - if he's not hiding anything ... what is he hiding?

[TheWebHead]

56. unfortunately

idiots who cherry pick old photos of John Kerry with a wrinkled brow when he raises his eyebrows with new photos of Kerry when he doesn't raise his eyebrows somehow have convinced those who apparently are even more ignorant that he's had botox.

Here's an exercise, assuming you are over 35 or so... Walk up to your bathroom mirror, raise your eyebrows --- see more wrinkles or at least creases?

[genius]

58. Good post. .I almost feel sorry for Dean but that's a lot of money to

blow. Are any of his donors mad?

[Melinda]

62. I'm not mad and I maxed out in 2003... will contribute more in 2004

I didn't expect an accounting when I donated, and I don't expect one now. I know that Gov. Dean is fiscally responsible - he has the record to prove it. If there was malfeasance, I expect we will see the "facts" soon enough - sans speculation or inuendo.

[LostInTheMaise]

59. Bring on the Botox and pancake makeup

Sorry but Kerry ain't doing it for me. He is no better than what we have and Howard offers so much more. The botox and makeup is too fake and is a disgrace to real values.

[Maddy McCall]

63. When Dean stood on a box so that he wouldn't look dwarfish beside Harkin

at a press event--I believe it was when he accepted Harkin's endorsement, would that be considered fake and a disgrace to real values?

And what are "real values" anyway??

[Melinda]

64. Some of us wouldn't leave our homes w/out makeup.

Sorry, but the makeup/botox is a non-issue for me. :shrug:

[Carl Spackler]

66. I'm more upset about the conflict of interest with Trippi's ad agency

I did not personally contribute to Dean (my money went buh buy with Gephardt), but beyond spending the money I think the more serious issue is that Dean would give his campaign manager a commission on ad buys. This will kind of deflate the argument that he's a great fiscal manager. And it reeks too.

[farmbo]

70. Wait a minute...Every Ad buy generates a commission (Usually 15%)

...And I have no problem with placing the ads through a good, Democratic ad firm. (This comes from a maxed out Dean donor).

I do have a problem, however, with the nature (negative) and quality (poor) of the ads run in Iowa.

[Zomby Woof]

69. thank you!

You have been far more gracious and patient than me with this crap. Plus, their obsession with DK and Edwards's Iowa deal, and questioning the validity of the NH results. Lots of toxic spew being spread about Kerry, DK, and Edwards.

I try not to kick a person when they're down, but I have been tempted strongly these past 24 hours.

[Catholic Sensation]

71. You know who else I've heard blast Kerry in relation to botox?

Rush Limbaugh. I just felt that those who think a candidate's legitimacy lies with something this irrelevant would like to know they're in the same company as "la Rusha."

[Moderator]

73. Locking...

This thread has become inflammatory.

Thanks,

DU Moderator