John Kerry: Yet Another Reason Why You Lost....

[MarkTwain]

Thursday, November 17, 2005

John Kerry undercuts Murtha
by John in DC - 11/17/2005 07:03:00 PM

"You gotta love John Kerry. Just when you think he's totally worthless, he comes back on more time to remind us why he lost.

John Murtha makes an amazing personal sacrifice, putting his reputation on the line, by going public against this growing fiasco of a war. So what does John Kerry do within hours of Murtha's speech? He says Murtha is wrong about needing to set a timetable for withdrawal.

Kerry also hinted he might be running for election AGAIN in 2008. Gee, do you think that's why Kerry still can't make up his mind about this war?

Message to Kerry: You lost against a moron. Go away. I know some of you still like Kerry, but I really think he (and you) underestimate the amount of anti-Kerry-ism that exists on the Democratic side of the aisle. He needs to go away."

Comments (62) | Permanent Link |
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http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/11/john-kerry-undercuts-murtha.html


Christ, does anyone in the Democratic Party understand the strategy of "staying on message" ? No wonder such a group of Pecker heads like the Bush Cabal is able to steal the White House TWICE.

[NMDemDist2]

1. ..

:popcorn:

[Wetzelbill]

4. yeah this could get good

:)

[snowbear]

2. Senator Kerry is on CNN (Wolf) right now BTW...

The interview they've been talking about..

[LSparkle]

12. And now he's under-cutting John Edwards, saying HE said he was wrong

BEFORE Edwards did. (I don't recall Kerry admitting that until just the last day or so.)

I don't think I'll vote for him again. John Edwards has my vote until further notice.

[Mass]

15. So you are wrong.

He said that about two weeks before Edwards. This said, I am not sure it is that important.

[LSparkle]

21. Yes, I am wrong -- and I am enough of a MAN to admit it!

:P

[Mass]

23. He answered to stupid question of Wolf. That's all.

[karynnj]

20. The georgetown speech about 3 weeks ago

That the Kerry group has posted and told everyone about 99999999999 times

[kerrygoddess]

You're wrong!

Kerry - October 26, 2005 - Georgetown University:

"The country and the Congress were misled into war. I regret that we were not given the truth; as I said more than a year ago, knowing what we know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq. And knowing now the full measure of the Bush Administration’s duplicity and incompetence, I doubt there are many members of Congress who would give them the authority they abused so badly. I know I would not."

"There is, as Robert Kennedy once said, ‘enough blame to go around,’ and I accept my share of the responsibility. But the mistakes of the past, no matter who made them, are no justification for marching ahead into a future of miscalculations and misjudgments and the loss of American lives with no end in sight."

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=952

[Jacobin]

3. That's it. I want a fucking refund of my campaign contributions

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. Message to MarkTwain:

Kerry WON.

So Kerry disagrees with Murtha on the timeline and that makes him a horrible person. DU just drives me up a tree sometimes.

[MarkTwain]

13. Given your presumption....

... then why is Sentaor Kerry not in the White House?

The answer lies perhaps in my original post. Kerry has not the balls to deal with the evil which confronts us as a party and as a nation. He spends so much time on the fence he has a post permanently implanted in his ass.

And we are all feeling the pain of that implant, thanks to Senator Kerry.

[Skittles]

24. male body parts are NOT REQUIRED for courage

PLEASE stop using such a sexist, tired expression

[MarkTwain]

28. It would be inappropriate to suggest...

...that the good Senator has not the "tits" for dealing with his enemies, since he is, by gender, a male.

Hence, the use of the term "balls" was more than applicable for a person with the sex characteristics with which I presume the Senator was born and still maintains.

Respectfully offered suggestion: spare us the tired and worn charges of "sexism." The Seventies were over about twenty five years ago. Moreover, board nannies typically endear themselves to very few in our community.

Thank you.

[Skittles]

92. bite me

I know SEXISM when I see it and believe me it is NOT PASSE

[SledDriver]

26. No, but he could've waited a little longer to do it.

The Dems have GOT to get their collective shit together and start supporting one another if they ever intend to beat the GOP. It's OK if Kerry feels we shouldn't set a timeline. But does he have to come out right after Murtha and openly disagree? Couldn't he sit on it for a day or two and THEN express his opinion?

We the people see someone like Murtha take a stand like he did and we pick our heads up. Could it be that the Dems are FINALLY coalescing into a cohesive unit? Banding together to collectively stand up and fight the GOP and this criminal administration??? As we open our eyes to bask in the glory of the representatives of our party taking a stand, along comes John Kerry pissing all over us and once again reminding us why the GOP is in power.

I'm not saying we need to march in lockstep like the GOP, but we can't keep trying to outdo each other like this either. What Murtha did was big. Kerry should have let the effect of that resonate with the GOP and the people for awhile. Instead he trots right out with what HE feels is a better idea. The GOP chuckles to itself, shakes it's collective head, and dismisses them both. The people once again shake their head and sigh, once again defeated.

[Mass]

29. Murtha criticized Kerry's plan as well earlier in the interview

Given that I have not seen Kerry's interview yet, I cant judge what he said, but the only thing I regret is that two Democrats cannot sit and discuss their respective plans.

Apparently this did not happen. Kerry was there to present his plan that the media have ignored for several weeks. He was asked the question, answered (may be you can tell me exactly what he said), and probably moved on. It seems to me that americablog is making a lot about nothing.

[kerrygoddess]

42. Text of CNN interview here

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=1191

Video later...

[xray s]

kerry is trying to figure out how you ask someone to be the last person...

...to die for a mistake he voted for.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

16. ouch

[roguevalley]

43. BINGO! And since the dickheads aren't going to come out, even

MORE now that criticism is coming this hard, we better keep making body bags. Now, in my opinion, Kerry has a stake in their creation with his idiot insistence that this thing can be drawn to a reasonable conclusion. I remember sitting and watching the last American helicopter lift off in Nam to know what it means to fight an 'insurgency'. Shit. Short of glassing a place over, you can't win. I would think Kerry would be the first among many know understand that. Those who don't learn from history, etc. etc. etc.

[Lena inRI]

44. Touche, xray s. . .

your clever quip capsulizes what I find so disappointing with the conventional Democratic Presidential wannabes. . .Kerry, Edwards, Hillary, Biden. . .they all are so self-absorbed. . .looking always over their shoulders before they make a public statement because to them winning at the political gamesmanship is all that matters.

Murtha is speaking from the gut. . .convictions. . .real ALTRUISM. . .not easy when you're surrounded with and outnumbered by the Beltway-backstabbing politicos.

Democratic 2006 resurgence will take care of itself. . .but I am greatly disappointed at and anxious about the 2008 Presidential Dem prospects if I have to put up with a Kerry, Edwards, Hillary, or Biden candidancy. . .

Progressive Dems here I come. . .whomever you select has to be waaaaay better than these shallow Dem choices.
:shrug:

[wisteria]

72. No, actually Kerry is smarter than you and he actually knows

what he is doing unlike you.!

[RazzleDazzle]

97. That's the optimistic reading

I don't think he's gotten that far yet. I really don't.

[JVS]

107. Zing!

[xray s]

6. .

[Mass]

7. Do you actually know what Kerry said? This has not aired yet.

[graywarrior]

8. omg

[snowbear]

10. Graywarrior..

Will you please release that poor duck from that tape? Poor thing! http://eliteleague.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/lol!.gif

[roguevalley]

45. I love his duck. That is homeopathy for bird flu

:+

[graywarrior]

52. I guess you missed the poll I had a few days ago.

Majority of voters said to keep the duck the way he is.

Bwaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha! Quack.

[emulatorloo]

9. Kerry laid out Iraq withdrawal plan THREE WEEKS ago, and introduced

legislation on it last week. So if he wants to talk about it I guess that is his perogative, right?

[LWolf]

66. Sure.

:rofl:

Of course, at least one of his primary opponents had a withdrawal plan laid out before the convention and nomination; before Kerry even got started with his campaign after his nomination.

If he wants to trot out a plan at this late date, more power to him. Better late than never. But not much.

[joemurphy]

11. Kerry would make a better President than a candidate for

President...Too nuanced, as usual. He lacks the ability to make short, simple points.

[Mass]

14. Actually, these interviews were planned before Murtha talked

So whatever Kerry actually said, he was talking about his plan.

None of the two plans are perfect, and rather than ranting, may be this "john in DC" could encourage them to sit and talk.

But of course, we cant hope a Democrat could understand that.

[melody]

17. He didn't lose - the election was stolen

That's quite apart from my misgivings about Kerry, but a trained spidermonkey could have beaten Bush in 2004 (and I'd have paid to see it).

[jbnow]

18. He was answering a question

He was asked if he agreed. He didn't just release a statement against what John Murtha said, he was asked. He answered.

He doesn't agree.

There may be reasons not to want him to run again, but answering a question honestly isn't that reason.

[Awsi Dooger]

19. I'm watching him on Hardball right now

No matter how much I like his themes, he simply is not an effective message bearer. This appearance is all too familiar of last year and what the apolitical people I know would say about him. When he speaks you get the idea he's smart and knows what he's talking about, but nothing memorable makes the trip with you and there are frequent awkward moments when his timing is off, speaking too long or cutting the questioner off. I guess it's called charisma.

[AndyTiedye]

56. NOONE Can Be an Effective Message-Bearer, When Under a Media Blackout

Kerry's message was neither seen nor heard on the media. Why?

[BikeWriter]

22. Can't we all just get along?

[Mass]

25. Not on DU. We need to attack, attack, attack.

[Joe for Clark]

27. Kerry quit,

Mark is so right. WHY DID HE QUIT?

Yeah, I think he won too. The day he quit, Gore went up a thousand fold in my appreciation.

He does NOT represent me, he is just a quitter.

I do think a lot of kids have and will die because of his lack of convictions.

Many of us remember the shock that day he conceded.

We better win this fight - and he clearly is not the guy.

My understanding is that Edwards was NOT going to quit. Edwards is not so popular on the Clark sites - but I sure see he at least had the cajones to try and do the right thing.

Not Kerry - the consumate politician. No, he lost so much more when he failed to fight that good fight. Jerk.

"Someone other than Kerry in 2008"

[annabanana]

30. .. not such a "consumate politician"

but he would have made a good president nonetheless

[Joe for Clark]

37. Maybe Anna,

But I think he made a cold blooded calculation of his political "capital". So, about 4,000 - maybe more, of our chldren will die over these next four years (at three a day).

Maybe if he put up a real fight we would lose. Maybe. But we will never even find out. But to not put up that fight - I can never forgive. I guess there is not a soldier he wouldn't leave behind - if it meant his behind (excuse the pun).

His political life is not worth a fraction of the children he doomed.

Anyway, I want to win. I will not trust him to do the right thing. I think a lot of people won't. And damn me, I trusted him because of Clark's say so. I won't make the same mistake twice.

Best to you,

Joe

[blm]

83. Guess you don't know that the machines were programmed for onetime use

and then all evidence is erased.

There was no way to acquire that evidence. They WILL, however, publicly expose the machines and how they can be rigged before the next election.

Too bad MacAuliffe didn't cover that before 2004. That was part of his job.

[Texas_Kat]

86. Best of a bad situation, Joe

but you're right.

08 won't be 04

(It won't be 1992 either)

[BikeWriter]

41. Yeah, right. Let's all beat up Dem politicians...

That way the freepers won't have to! :sarcasm:

[radio4progressives]

31. Damn You take the words right out of my mouth..

Just as I was about allow a glimmer of hope that Kerry finally saw the light - there he goes again.

The WORTHLESS SONOFABITCH.

He's a shite head - and needs to be DUMPED from the list of frontloaders.

The freaking bastard I'm so pissed at him again, all of those ugly feelings from November 3rd and his cowardice has been revived.

Expect an excellent response from David Sirota (or other).

I can't quite think of anyone who is able to succeed more at dividing the Democratica party right now than Kerry and Hillary Clinton (well, Biden and those assholes too).

[frogmarch]

32. anti-Kerryism?

The worst anti-Kerryism I've encountered among Democrats anywhere is here at DU and at Kos.

Many Democrats WANT an intelligent, thoughtful, nuanced president like Kerry would be...not someone who can spout off pat answers. I'm one of those many.

[Mass]

33. No prescient - This was written before the show aired

based on a clip Blitzer aired.

[welshTerrier2]

36. most Democrats want the war to end NOW ...

be careful not to conflate those opposed to the war with "anti-Kerryism" ...

and as for nuance, keep it!!! soldiers are dying at the rate of two per day ... perhaps a clear, "pat" answer is exactly what we need ...

and if by "pat" you're referring to what Congressman Murtha said today, you obviously didn't hear what he said nor how Kerry characterized what he said ...

[Mass]

38. So move the troops to another arabic country will end the war

(or is it going to start a war somewhere else).

I admire really what Murtha said and it must have been really difficult for him given where he comes from.

[welshTerrier2]

49. removing troops from Iraq MAY end the war

first, just for the record, i have not advocated the idea of removing troops "just over the horizon" as Murtha suggested so i won't defend that idea ... Murtha said today, and I strongly agree, that the only way to press for a political solution is to withdraw our troops ... could civil war, all out civil war, break out when we leave? of course it could ... but with our troops there, there can be no political progress ... the Sunnis see us imposing a tyranny of the majority on them and will continue to fight us; the Shia are happy to have us take out as many insurgents as possible and see no reason to compromise now ... and still, 80% of the Iraqi people want the US out now and somehow many Dem senators think we have the right to ignore their wishes ... i really don't know how they reconcile that one ...

second, i went to check the Hardball transcript online about 30 minutes ago and they did NOT include Kerry's comments on Murtha ... i'm hesitant to post his exact words from my shakey memory ...

he basically had unlimited praise for Murtha ... with respect to Murtha's call for immediate withdrawal, and here's where i'd like to obtain Kerry's exact words, i believe he said he understood how so many could look at a totally failed policy and draw that conclusion ... and then he said something (it's important to find this!!) to the effect that many are reaching the same conclusion because bush seems unwilling to change course ... this last sentence is possibly very misrepresentative of what Kerry actually said ... when i heard it, i wondered whether he was telegraphing the idea that he was weighing a similar argument ...

so now we have McGovern's bill to cut-off funds for the war and we have Murtha speaking out forcefull ... the pressure continues to build and the Senate Democrats, their recent offerings shot to hell, need to move left ... sooner or later they'll have to do it ... in the meantime we're a team without all our players on the field ...

i will definitely post Kerry's exact words about Murtha's position (and my invaluable interpretation of them :) ) as soon as i locate them ...

[Mass]

51. Thanks WT2

I certainly welcome Murtha's proposition. Anything that makes things go ahead is welcome.

I am just wary of just moving the war from Iraq to whatever country the troops will go.

[kerrygoddess]

108. CNN - not Hardball I believe

Here's the Mrutha segment of the interview and after where Kerry discusses his plan:

BLITZER: John Murtha, who’s very involved in the Armed Services Committee, … says there should be an immediate withdrawal over the next six months of all U.S. troops from Iraq. Good idea?

KERRY: I respectfully disagree with John Murtha. And I laid out a plan which is, I think, a good plan, a solid plan — that builds consistently on everything I said throughout the campaign last year — of what you need to do to be successful. And I believe my plan supports the troops in the right way.

Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq] has said very clearly that the large presence of our troops in Iraq is part of the problem. It attracts terrorists. … Melvin Laird, secretary of defense for Richard Nixon, has written the same thing, that it’s our presence of troops that’s part of the problem. …

BLITZER: But you don’t want a timetable or a hard and fast deadline?

KERRY: I have laid out a plan where we could withdraw some 20,000 troops around the holidays, based on the fact — not as a rigid timetable — linked to the success of the election. (Full story)

We have about 160,000 troops in Iraq today, Wolf. We had 138,000; it went up for the purpose of making Iraq safer for the referendum and the election.

My benchmark is, if you have a successful election after having had a successful referendum, we’ve done our part with those extra troops; they should come home, taking us back to the level that we were at before that.

Then you set a target for the taking over of security responsibilities in Baghdad and another province … in a sort of step-by-step basis. You set out a timetable, not for withdrawal, but for success, that allows you to withdraw. And I believe if you do the right things, and I’ve laid out what they are, we can bring the bulk of our combat troops home over the course of next year.

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=1191#more-1191

[roguevalley]

46. perhaps you can list the Kerry things we aren't supposed to

criticize. There doesn't seem to be any inhibitions toward criticising other people, including my man, Wes Clark. I don't care, myself. Any candidate that can't stand up to criticism on our side, won't against theirs. It isn't a campaign year, this is America, we should be able to express our considered opinions without getting knocked around for it. That is what Free Republic does. That shouldn't be what we do.

[ProSense]

34. I thought the message was that the election was stolen

:shrug:

[flpoljunkie]

35. I was with Murtha until he said to deploy the troops just outside of Iraq

and if terrorism returned, redeploy them inside Iraq. Huh?

This makes little sense as Iraq is near, if not already, in a state of civil war and has become a central training ground for terrorists--something it was not before we invaded and occupied the country.

Iraq will never be stable as long as we are there as occupiers. That is the bottom line.

I cannot see what we can do to make Iraq a success militarily. The solution is political, and must be made by the Iraqis themselves.

Murtha himself suggested six months to redeploy the troops, because of safety factors. In reality, he and Kerry, as well as Feingold, are not that far apart in their plans for withdrawal of our troops from Iraq.

[pinto]

39. The OP is one person's posted opinion. I think John in DC sensationalized

Sen. Kerry's brief remarks in today's cable TV interview.

Kerry called Murtha's timeline "precipitous", in his opinion, but didn't disagree with the need for a timeline on a military exit. Nor did he disagree with a military exit. He supports an exit timeline.

In fact, he praised Rep. Murtha for his comments, said he understood where he's coming from and noted the frustration among all Democrats in Congress with the Administration's failure to put forth any exit plan at all.

Reading Rep. Murtha's comments from earlier today, I noted that he mentioned an exit consistent with troop safety. That's a reasoned position from someone familiar with the steps it takes to pull out troops from a war zone. That's his timeline.

Surely, given that we have a united call from Democrats across the spectrum of the party for a military exit, some leeway could be afforded for discussion of what the exit timeline means.

I was awed by Rep. Murtha's speech today. I don't think Sen. Kerry's comments tonight undermined Murtha at all.

(aside) How many of us thought, six months ago, that we'd be hearing "exit from Iraq" discussed on nightly news shows???

[Mass]

40. Thanks a lot.

I have been looking to what Kerry said for a while now.

Now, I can understand what was said.

[Joe for Clark]

47. Then please tell me what it means,

I do not want to believe I threw my vote away.

It is NOT what Kerry said - it IS what he did.

We were sold out. I will never forgive him - never.

Does Heinz have a deal with Kellog??

I guess I voted for Clark because he wasn't a politician - stupid me.

Joe

[LandOLincoln]

81. Oh grow up, all of you.

Do you really think you know more than Wes Clark OR John Kerry OR John Murtha about the best way to get us out of the clusterfuck that is Iraq?

As for Kerry "selling out," remember he was A PROSECUTOR. He knows far better than hotheads like you that you make no accusations until and unless your case is IRONCLAD.

I bet you're the same lot who screamed that Patrick Fitzgerald's a "sellout" because 2+ years of investigation have only produced one (1) indictment so far.

I swear to god, the only thing that's saved the Dems from their own circular firing squad is that none of you can shoot worth a damn...

[radio4progressives]

50. Kerry did undermine Murtha... despite the actual statements made

While, you're correct that Kerry stated the things he said, but the very meaning of his statements do not translate - that's Kerry's biggest problem - his words translate into a hundred different ways to parse the same objective, effectively translating into something else entirely.

He even contradicts his own words, in the translation. (when he's compelled to restate)

Kerry is an intellectual giant and Bush is an intellectual midget.

But they both contradict themselves in the same breath.

The other day, bush says "we don't torture" in response to why he will veto a bill because of the clause banning torture.

Today, Kerry still could not articulate in straight talk - Why he believed Sadamn had weapons of mass destruction and so authorized Bush to take Sadamn out (given all of the stipulations)

While this country would ahve been so much better off to have Kerry in the White House or Al Gore - but going forward, he should not be the candidate that the rank and file supports - because i will predict that there will be a huge split in the party if anyone of these assholes end up being the nominee.

The party desperately needs someone very very different than the faces of the people that now look like clowns parading around out front now that they think the winds of change has shifted. But they are saying the same stupid things as before - and we simply cannot afford for the party leadership to be so lame, so mealy mouthed about a simple truth as this war in iraq.

[pinto]

54. I see your point, I think. But if your argument is about a Kerry '08 run,

I pass on this. I am talking about today. The exit discussion.

'08 is a long way away. We cripple our discussions with hypothetical who will run in '08? sidebars, imo.

Thanks for the response.

:hi:

[blm]

Your post deserves its own thread. You comprehended accurately

while others seem to listen with chips stacked so high on their shoulders that they're covering their ears.

[rockymountaindem]

48. See, but Kerry has been saying this for awhile

Maybe it's Murtha who undercut Kerry. Didn't you think of that? I mean, Kerry came out with his plan before Murtha came out with his. Maybe it's Murtha who's off message. Besides, Kerry was scheduled to be on TV before Murtha made his announcement, so I don't see why Kerry should change his views hours before his TV appearance just to stay on the message of the day. Then you'd probably call him a flip-flopper.

Just because someone comes up with a plan you like better does not make that person (or you) the sole arbiter of the "Democratic message". I'm sorry your personal dislike of Kerry prevents you from seeing that.

[Mass]

53. I think it is more than two Dems cannot say something different

without DU's crowd to raise.

DU circular firing.

Murtha and Kerry politely disagreed on how to exit Iraq, but agreed on the fact that we needed to leave and that keeping the troops in plain sight like that was the source of the problem. Both expose what they think is their position.

We can prefer one or the other. It is fine. But why say that one undercut the other. (I feel perfectly fine to say I disagree with the OP).

[welshTerrier2]

61. this statement is seriously in error !!!!!

there is a HUGE difference between what Kerry proposed and what Murtha said today ...

Murtha said "the American public is way ahead of the members of Congress" ... "it is evident that continued military action in Iraq is NOT in the best interests of the US, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf region" ... he quoted General Casey who stated that "the American occupation of Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency" ... "the future of our military is at risk" ... "recruitment is down even as the military has lowered its standards" ... "the war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls in our bases at home" ... "over 2079 confirmed American deaths and over 15,500 have been seriously injured ... and it's estimated that over 50,000 will suffer from what i call battle fatigue" ... "oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels - you remember they said that was going to pay for the war" ...
"unemployment is 60%" ... "clean water is scarce" ... "and most importantly, this is the most important point - incidents have increased from 150 per week to over 700 (a week) in the last year" ...
"attacks have grown dramatically" ... "since Abu Ghraib, American casualities have doubled (i.e. the rate of casualties)" ... "if you look at the timeline you'll see one a day (i.e. American deaths) before Abu Ghraib; after Abu Ghraib you'll see two a day" ... "i sent a letter to the President last September and i got an answer back five months later" ... "i believe the same today; they don't want input" ... "i believe, and i have concluded, the presence of US troops in Iraq is impeding this progress" ... "our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency" ... "they are united against US forces and we have become a catalyst for violence" ... "US troops are the common enemy of the Sunni, the Saddamists and the foreign jihadists" ... "i believe with a US troop redeployment, the Iraqi security forces will be incentivized to take control" ... "over 80% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition forces and about 45% of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified" ... "i believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis" ... "i believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid-December, the Iraqi people and their emerging government must be put on notice - the US will IMMEDIATELY REDEPLOY" ... "IMMEDIATELY REDEPLOY" ... "no schedule which can be changed; nothing that's controlled by the Iraqis; this is an IMMEDIATELY REDEPLOYMENT of our American forces because they have become the target" ... "all of Iraq must know that Iraq is free; free from US occupation" ... "and i believe this will send a signal to the Sunnis to join the political process" ... "my plan calls for IMMEDIATELY REDEPLOYMENT of US troops consistent with the safety of US forces, to create a quick reaction force in the region, to create an 'over the horizon' presence of Marines, and to diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq" ...

John Kerry has called on bush to establish a series of benchmarks that he hoped could lead to the phased withdrawal of our troops over the next 12 - 15 months ...

SEE THE DIFFERENCE ???

so, no, KERRY HAS NOT BEEN "SAYING THIS FOR AWHILE" ... you may not agree with Murtha, but his is a real withdrawal plan; not a "plan for success" ...

[rockymountaindem]

63. Ok, evidently what I said did not convey what I meant

I'll try to be more clear:

John Kerry came out with his plan before Murtha. Therefore, Kerry is not "undercutting" Murtha. When I said "saying this" I meant "Kerry has been saying what he has been saying" for awhile longer than Murtha has been touting his plan. That's all. Don't get so bent out of shape.

I also hope you've considered that one of the implications of Murtha's plan is a re-invasion of Iraq if the rest of his plan fails. Saying "let's withdraw, then re-invade if things don't improve" is not what I think a lot of DUers really want. Murtha's plan is not "out now" but "out now, back later (maybe)".

Nonetheless, there are now multiple plans out there, and I think discussion should ensue. Let the best plan win.

[Mass]

64. Actually, it is not the out now, back later which disturbs me

The real question is how many troops will we keep in the M.E. for how long? .

The question Kerry's plan needs to answer are: what benchmarks? When? How many troops will we withdraw at each step? What do we do if the benchmark is not reached?

So it is fair to say that Kerry's plan needs refining, but Murtha's plan, at this point, still needs a few clarifications.

So may be we could stop the circular firesquad and be happy that more and more Dems are ready to speak of the need to leave Iraq at a relatively short term (the shorter the better), and stop beating each others on details that anyway will NOT be implemented as long as Bush is in power.

But this is wishful thinking, I know.

[kerrygoddess]

76. Does Murtha yet have support from the Caucus or other House Dems?

QUESTION: Mr. Murtha, based on your meeting this morning, I assume you have Ms. Pelosi's endorsement of this.

MURTHA: No, you have to talk to her.

I was very careful not to say this was a caucus position. A lot of people suggested it should be. But I was very careful about this. This is my own position, my own conclusion that I have reached.


QUESTION: Do you have any cosponsors?

MURTHA: I didn't ask for any. I'm not sure that -- I think I'll just sponsor it myself. I feel very strongly about this thing, and I'm not sure whether I'll ask for cosponsors.

QUESTION: What's your political strategy, though, going forward? Because you would have to convince some Republicans to get on your side, and there doesn't seem to be any that are willing to go out on a limb on this and buck the leadership. Do you have private conversations with any Republicans who say to you quietly, "I'm behind this"?

MURTHA: I have not yet because, obviously, anything I said before this time would have leaked out. You folks are so hard- working, so dedicated, have such an ability to get words out of people that I knew better than to say anything.

QUESTION: Do you have a political strategy moving forward to try to get some more support on this?

MURTHA: Well, I'm just starting to think about that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111700982.html

[welshTerrier2]

78. what does this have to do with anything???

thanks for sharing some information about Murtha's "political strategy" being in the very early stages ...

i don't see how that has anything to do, however, with what i wrote ... the point i raised, in response to a previous poster, was that there are HUGE differences between Kerry's plan and Murtha's ...

i thought you had disagreed in another post and i was hoping you would demonstrate why you do ... i don't see why the political status of Murtha's brand new proposal has anything to do with how Murtha's views differ from Kerry's ...

[kerrygoddess]

106. It don't mean jack -

so why are you trying to make it mean something. Can we not have different people with different plans and bring them together in the end to something that works?

I doubt Kerry and Murtha would argue about their differences the way you seem to want to.

We're all on the same team aren't we. Personally I'm glad everytime someone else jumps in with some ideas. That's what Murtha did today.

He said he has no intention at this point of looking for co-sponsors, so that means it's nothing but a show - what he did today. Don't you get that?

[TayTay]

55. He did not undercut Cong. Murtha

Not on the interview I saw. Tweety wanted to sow friction between Democrats and put one against the other so that it would appear that Democrats are rudderless and without any unity. I thought Kerry strongly stood up for Murtha and mentioned all the reasons why Murtha should be taken seriously and why Murtha would come to the conclusions he did.

Kerry was a voice for Cong. Murtha. In what way did he undermine him? Also, Kerry was asked about Se. Edwards OpEd and if he agreed. Kerry had come out with his position 2 weeks before Edwards did. It was not wrong to point that out.

We are getting what we want here people. We are getting 'big Democrats' to come out in strong support of a withdrawal from Iraq. We are getting conservaitves and liberals to start singing from the same page and we are not letting the media play the division game.

Isn't this what we want? Isn't this the way to get Democrats and their plans for Iraq taken seriously?

[sendero]

57. Kerry has a pattern..

.... of figuring shit out about a year after it would do any good.

I figure a year from now he'll be calling for a withdrawal.

[TayTay]

58. He said most of this stuff two years ago.

It's in writing. It can be looked up and verified.

We need to have Dems re-inforcing each other in getting the message across that we need an exit plan for Iraq.

Isn't that the point?

[wisteria]

68. Actually, it's the other way around, he figures out before others

do. Thats called a visionary.

[LittleClarkie]

59. Hint hell, he was asked if he was and gave his standard answer

I don't know Murtha's plan, and why Kerry doesn't like it. But so far all I've heard is that he preferred the plan he put forth. I'll have to see it for myself, being a cube rat at the mo.

He's a Senator. He is not going away.

And neither am I.

Funny thing is, if he had come out enthusiastically in favor of Murtha, do you know what some would have said?

"He's trying to jump on Murtha's bandwagon! Well, fuck him for trying to steal Murtha's thunder. Now go away Kerry. Nobody cares what you have to say."

[Mass]

60. I think you nailed it, LC.

[NightOwwl]

62. *Kerry worshippers may want to ignore this post*

He pisses me off so much I actually start shaking when I listen to him. So fucking scared of offending that mythical center that he's willing to stab a fellow Dem in the back.

Saw him on Hardball tonight. Misled this, misled that, blah blah blah. So, asks Tweety, are you accusing the President of lying? Oh, no Chris...we must thoroughly review...blah blah...very serious matter...harrumph, harrumph.

Maybe he's forgotten...many of his so-called supporters were just against Bush. He's in for a big surprise if he thinks his campaign coffers are going to be overflowing this time around.

*Kerry worshipers may now resume reading*

[Mass]

65. At least, it is funny.

More than I can say of most of the other ones.

But he did not stab anybody in the back, as far as I can see. Did you think he did? I dont think another centrist (like Murtha is) was shocked.

[wisteria]

67. All of this is nothing but BULL SH*T. Kerry did well tonight and

some people just can't face it so they have to misquote him, lie about him and otherwise act like real asshole's. Thank goodness most people can see through this bile.

[libertynliberalism]

82. Kerry got more votes than any democrat ever

The only thing I wish he'd do is challenge this weasels more man to man.

[kerrygoddess]

69. HOW DARE MURTHA

SAY WHAT KERRY HAS ALREADY SAID

I read the Murtha Transcript -- Much of what he said was what Kerry has said time and time again. I resent the fact that AmericaBlog doesn't pay attention.

[welshTerrier2]

70. POST #61 awaits your response ...

or do you prefer to just complain ?????

[kerrygoddess]

73. I'm not the person you responded to. But thanks. N/T

[welshTerrier2]

75. Kerry's plan is nothing like Murtha's ...

i thought you were suggesting they were very similar ... post #61 shows that there are HUGE differences ...

if you disagree, i thought you might want to say why ...

[kerrygoddess]

79. There's plans and then there's plans

There's plans with support, there's plans with out support. Murtha's has no support as of yet. Kerry's does.

AmericaBlog poorly represented what Kerry said tonight on CNN. If you read the transcript that's very clear.

Fruthermore, John from AmericaBlog did not actually even quote Kerry he only alluded to what he said. That's bit republican-lite in my book.

Kerry has been speaking out on Iraq for weeks now. A lot of the anti-war's won't even give him credit. It's sad really because when you think of it, many of his peers are obviously paying attention, including Murtha.

Reading what Murtha said today about Bush's Veteran's Day speech, he echoes what Kerry said the day of the speech and since quite a few times.

Rather than quibble over this - shouldn't all be happy that SO many Dems are speaking up and starting to get some where?

[welshTerrier2]

80. if you would prefer not to discuss the proposals, fine ...

i've heard a ton of whining from many Kerry supporters about how all those "lefty freepers" just want to believe what they want to believe and they refuse to deal with the facts ... i laid out the facts and you don't seem willing to discuss them ... i hear your response loud and clear ...

i specifically requested that you back up your statement that:

"HOW DARE MURTHA SAY WHAT KERRY HAS ALREADY SAID"
I read the Murtha Transcript -- Much of what he said was what Kerry has said time and time again. I resent the fact that AmericaBlog doesn't pay attention.

Murtha's plan calls for the IMMEDIATE REDEPLOYMENT of troops out of Iraq ... Kerry's plan calls on bush to propose a series of benchmarks that, IF met, should lead to a phased withdrawal over 12 - 15 months ... IF MET ...

yeah, Kerry's proposal is better than what bush is offering ... but no, it is NOTHING like what Murtha proposed ...

perhaps your little cavalry of Kerry operatives will come to your rescue ...

[LandOLincoln]

84. You know, WT2, as a Clark supporter I appreciated your

calm and polite inquiries regarding the General's positions, and your respectful acceptance of the differences between your positions and his as articulated by the Clark supporters you engaged back then.

Then came your childish temper tantrum on Josh Marshall's TPM Cafe, when you felt Clark had not given your question the time and thought you were so sure you deserved (never mind that he was on the road and posting through his Blackberry...)

And now you sling exclamation points like spitballs (dead giveaway of an immature and overly emotional post AND poster) and you have the %$#@ gall to accuse Little Clarkie--one of the wittiest and most levelheaded posters on this or any other blog/website--of stridency and whining?

What the hell is the matter with you? Perhaps your true colors are starting to show?

On edit: Sorry, on re-read I see you were responding to Kerrygoddess and not to Little Clarkie, but the rest of my post stands.

[welshTerrier2]

87. oh, i just love personal attacks ...

let's try to get at least a small grasp on reality ... OK???

first of all, i made NO criticism of Clark's position, and i'm quoting your statement here, "on Josh Marshall's TPM Cafe" ... perhaps what you incoherently are trying to say is that i criticized Clark's non-response on DU ... i posted only my question to General Clark on the TPM Cafe ...

second, it might interest you to know that i have had extensive offline conversation's with several "Clarkies" and they completely agreed with my position that Clark was non-responsive ... the fact that you choose here to attack me rather than presenting any evidence that Clark actually did respond shows the shallowness of your position ...

third, and you have not only climbed the cliffs of stupidity with this one but you've leapt off the other side, you stated: "you have the %$#@ gall to accuse Little Clarkie--one of the wittiest and most levelheaded posters on this or any other blog/website--of stridency and whining?"

this reflects such remarkable ignorance that i almost feel it's unfair to respond ... almost ...

do yourself a big favor and then say to yourself: "oh shit, what have i done???"

ready ???

are you sure ???

go reread my posts in this thread and note that i have not responded to nor made any comments whatsoever about "Little Clarkie" ... i actually think "Little Clarkie" is kind of spunky ...

take your bullshit, ignorant remarks down the road, pal ... frankly, i have no time for your stupidity ... if you'd like to discuss Clark or Kerry's views on Iraq, i'd be happy to discuss the issue with you ...

[LandOLincoln]

91. Ahh, go pop a pimple or something more age-appropriate...

good, good pal o' mine.

As to your quibble about WHERE you posted your childish whine about Clark's alleged non-response--BFD. Pick nits all you want, the fact is you howled at some length about that alleged snub, and it caused me to make considerable adjustments in my thinking about you. I doubt I was alone in that, and further doubt your claims that all those anonymous Clark supporters agreed with you. Proof is wanted.

And I've already edited my previous post to acknowledge that you were responding to Kerrygoddess and not to Little Clarkie. I will add that on further re-read I discovered it was "Mark Twain" who accused somebody of stridency. My apologies...sort of.

Bottom line: I'm still glad none of you in the circular firing squad can shoot worth shit... :rofl:

[kerrygoddess]

90. It seems some people

think others should jump at command and respond.

[LandOLincoln]

94. Yep, sure does.

And such hissy fits they throw when one declines to jump through their hoops...

[kerrygoddess]

89. LOOK...

The point is what John at AmericaBlog did was take things out of context -- tantamount to what I just did. He used no facts - no quotes - no statements.

Now everyone who likes to bash Kerry is saying oh isn't this so. Well it's not.

I don't have time to run through all of Murtha's transcript but many points he made are similar to things Kerry has been saying and I did not say his plan was similar. You are putting words in my mouth.

FYI, I posted on my blog about Murtha today. I think it's grand he did what he did.

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=1183

I think more need to do the same. However at some point they all have to come toether and agree on something. Kerry has support of his plan in the Senate. We'll see where Murtha's plan goes.

[MarkTwain]

77. Nevertheless....

... Post 61 is a specific and detailed refutation to Post 48 which expresses the same sentiment and argument which you expressed in your Post 69.

So as an apparent strong, and I might add, more than somewhat strident proponent of Senator Kerry, his political strategies, and comportment, the question stands - awaiting your own detailed and comprehensive response.

[kerrygoddess]

95. Well gee...

Seems there just aren't enough hours in the day - eh. You know some people have lives outside of DU, businesses to run, blogs to maintain, teenagers to pick up, that sort of mundane stuff.

I don't get all huffy if people don't respond to my questions or posts, I'm not sure why you are.

[wisteria]

74. I think a majority of Dems are on the same page and are mature

enought to understand each others positions. The goals remain the same though even if the plan may differ somewhat. it's to bad some people just are to ignorant to see this. That's for fighting for Kerry.

[YvonneCa]

71. October 26th Georgetown University...

...go to C-SPAN, click on Iraq and scroll down to listen to Kerry's speech.Don't skip the Q & A. BEFORE Edwards. (Even though I support JE, too!)

:patriot:

[LSK]

88. full text of the speech

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5177000&mesg_id=5177000

[wisteria]

85. Hey, get over it, the election is over.

He even said he knows what mistakes were made. He has moved on and is focused on 2006. Did you even watch any of the interview before bashing?

[_dynamicdems]

93. Hi Wisteria! Tough getting in here with so much

ELEPHANT MANURE all over the place! At least the piles are big enough to spot. ::walks around a particularly odious lump that looks to be about waist deep:: Hmmm...I wonder where all this has come from?

[LandOLincoln]

96. Yeah, who knew such little

critters could leave such big piles? :wow:

[_dynamicdems]

98. Yeah, these aren't donkey droppings to be sure. ; ) n/t

[wisteria]

104. Hi! This is all so unproductive and vile. What a shame.N/t

[Wetzelbill]

99. I'm lost do any of you know where the Democratic Party Unity thread is?

:evilgrin:

[wisteria]

101. If you find it take me along too. These types of posts are just uncalled

for. There is no reason for them other than these people just like wallowing in their ugliness and hatefulness.

[LandOLincoln]

103. I dunno. Can't help but think there may be a little

more to it than that.

OTOH, maybe I'm just being paranoid...

[Wetzelbill]

105. I see how we all have differences

but sometimes people just start getting mad and it gets pretty ugly and uncalled for. You're right on that one.

I think Kerry is a good man. Just as I think Dean, Edwards and Clark are good men too. I like Hillary Clinton. I like Barack Obama. I am a Dennis Kucinich for president voter. Sure, none of them are perfect. But I agree with most of them about 99 percent of the time. It's just some issues or some actions really divide us. Was Kerry unvotable because he voted to authorize for in Iraq? I didn't agree with his decision but I voted for him in the G.E. Should he have been tougher on certain things? Yes. But, by and large, he was and is a good man. I just hate to see us all get into big fights with each other over certain things when we all pretty much stand for the same things.

[politicasista]

100. Nice thread to keep Dems divided

Go Figure.

[wisteria]

102. Exactly- a real shame when basically we all have the same goal.

Very small minded people. I don't know how they can even call themselves Democrats. Its a shame what their doing to this party.

[Moderator]

109. Locking: flamebait

Flamebait...