Merry Christmas! Macy's has bowed to right-wing pressure.

[win_in_06]

Last year fundies boycotted Macy's because they (justifiably) dropped the Merry Christmas from their store banners.

From the Federated Website:

"Our divisions are free to advertise in their local markets in any manner they choose. This includes using the phrase Merry Christmas if they believe it is appropriate to do so. Additionally, our stores recognize and celebrate Christmas in a variety of ways, including Christmas decorations, Christmas music, Christmas-themed merchandise and Christmas trim-a-tree shops. And since our employees are free to wish any customer a Merry Christmas, you will frequently hear such expressions of holiday cheer in our stores as part of celebrating the season."

http://www.fds.com/merrychristmas/

[ClassWarrior]

1. Since when are freedom of choice and nuance...

...goals of right wing pressure? Sounds to me like Macy's is taking a rather Progressive position.

NGU.

[On the Road]

2. What is Wrong With "Merry Christmas" Banners?

[enough already]

30. Plenty wrong with it

It's a religious reference and I'm tired of these fundies shoving their insane religion down my throat.

[lukasahero]

32. You don't have to shop there

I thought that was the very essence of freedom?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[On the Road]

40. "Merry Christmas" is Fundamentalist? How So?

And how does a sign visible during a parade constitute "shoving it down your throat"? You seem to be shoving your own agenda down everyone else's throat.

This is not a government function and is not on government property. There's no First Amendment issue.

I'm an atheist, and I think the country would be poorer if the words "Merry Christmas" were banned from commercial space. And if nothing else, voters recoil from this kind of extremism. It loses elections. I cannot disagree with you more.

[Terran]

42. Yawn.

It's Christmas, lighten up. You can hear "Happy Holidays" everywhere else you go.

[bmbmd]

55. Not a fundy-

but let me be the first to wish you and your family a Very Merry Christmas....

[Telly Savalas]

68. Merry Christmas!

[sendero]

74. I'm as sick of "Christians" as anybody..

... but I have no problem with this. Were it a government function or location I would - but private businesses have the right to do anything of that sort they wish, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukka, whatever - go to town.

And even though I am not a "Christian", and my holiday cards say "Season's Greetings", I wouldn't even boycott a store over a Merry Christman banner. A nativity scene? Well that might be a bit much :)

[OneTwentyoNine]

75. Brother....Merry Christmas really bothers you?

Simple I guess,stay away from those eeevill stores that display such an outrageous statement.

Whew....

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. some people are so anti-religion that they are offended when ever they see

religion in public.

[Mad_Dem_X]

47. Sure seems that way, doesn't it?

A salesclerk wishes someone a Merry Christmas and somehow that's "shoving your religion down someone's throat." Give me a break. :eyes:

[FreedomAngel82]

48. If someone does feel that way

they could just say "happy holiday's" back. No big deal. I say "Merry Christmas" too.

[pbartch]

71. Nothing.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[noahmijo]

3. Merry Christmas isn't bowing to fundies. Actually the opposite in a way

Christmas as Macy's portrays it-as does the rest of the consumer world for that matter is not that of Jesus Christ's birthday but as of the old German tradition which I'm too tired to lay out the history of but you know what I mean.


If anything fundies HATE seeing Christmas in this fashion with the trees and the eggnog. Personally I love it and I'm not a Christian.

[napi21]

4. I gotta tell ya folks. This crying about using Christmas by stores

is just nuts! If you don't like the name Christmas, then just don't listen! Go shop somewhere else if you're unhappy with the stores that use it!

The holiday has been totaly commercialized for years, and it has about as much of a link to religion as Santa Claus.

Why all the bitching about stores using the word Christmas in their advertising?

If you're pretending to be promoting a democratic, big tent story, you're failing miserably!

[lonestarnot]

5. Piss on 'em! Not buying anything until after Christmas and Hanukkah this

year, and not even then unless it's cheap enough!

[napi21]

8. That's OK. It's your choice.

It just pisses me off that even some people are bitching about using the word Christmas in reference to the 12/25 Holiday. It's about the fartherist thing from promoting a christian celebration as you can get! "Christmas" has been a commercial promotion for so many years, I can't ven remember when it wasn't, and I'm 62!

[FreedomAngel82]

49. Exactly

I'm a Christian and we celebrate Christmas. Everything we do on Christmas comes from pagan roots. Go figure. I could care less either way.

[AZBlue]

53. Almost every religion has the same pagan roots.

And, if you compare them, they are basically similar with similar beliefs and holidays. I think we're all believing the same thing, just going about it in different ways.

[SW FL Dem]

7. As a Christian in an inter-faith marriage, I have to disagree

I love Christmas, however, half of my extended family celebrates Hanukkah, for them being wished "Merry Christmas" in a store is offensive. They may be spending money in December but they aren't celebrating the birth of Jesus. I think "Happy Holidays" is big tent inclusive, while "Merry Christmas" excludes a large part of the American population.

[expatriot]

15. All marketing can't be all inclusive.

When I go to the grocery store in late January I am not offended that half the packaging of the products I buy are emblazaned with SUPERBOWL CLXII logos and branding, etc. even though I don't give a lick about the Superbowl. If 90%+ of Americans celebrate Christmas in some form or another, I don't know how major stores can avoid marketing to it. I do not understand how this could be offensive.

I am atheist/agnostic and have accepted the fact that the Christian belief system predominates culturally in America, public observances of the Christian calendar is about as offensive to me as the presence of churches on nearly every couple of blocks.

[Zen Democrat]

21. I disagree. It's Christmas for about 90% of the population.

I know Jewish folks who put up Christmas trees and call them that. This is an American tradition that transcends religion.

It's Christmas. I'm offended by Happy Holidays. What Holidays? No one outside of the Jewish community would know much about Hannukah were it not for Christmas.

And I know many, many people who are completely non-religious who say "Merry Christmas" and give Christmas presents, decorate their homes with holly wreathes, attend Christmas parties, and Santa visits their homes on Christmas Eve.

I think by now everyone knows that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. Who the hell cares?

I say, Merry Christmas and to all a good night.

[expatriot]

10. I really don't know anyone who has a serious problem with saying

"Merry Christmas." I am very militantly agnostic, for all practical purposes, atheist... and I have no problem with Christmas. In fact, I love Christmas with a passion. I even don't mind the religious dimension of the holiday but LOVE the sentimental/nostalgic/humanitarian dimensions of it.

[AZBlue]

52. I'd rather see a complaint about the commercialization of Christmas

and all the other religious holidays that occur in December! That's what's really disgusting!!!!

[expatriot]

6. This is not a victory for the RW since there was never a war on Christmas

I am a huge sucker for Christmas. I love Christmas and I am one of the most (politically) liberal people I know.

I spent mid-November to ealy December last year in Manhattan and hung around a pretty liberal crowd while there and I was really into the Christmas feeling, etc. and it was not until I got back home to Yuma, AZ was I made aware that "liberals" were "at war" with Christmas. It is absurd. Absurd. Absurd.

[HootieMcBoob]

64. It's all in Bill O'Reilly's warped mind n/t

[incapsulated]

9. I didn't know they dropped it to begin with

Stupid. It's Christmas, so what? Every fucking store in NY has Christmas crap all over them, including those owned by non-christians, it's retail's main earning period.

[melody]

11. What do these numbnuts have against *courtesy*?

I used to run a large international mailing list where I would post greetings regarding whatever holiday it was at the time. Happy Canadian Thanksgiving, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Godelian Plums Day, whatever. I got so much grief by the handful of wingnuts on my list. I was constantly called "PC".

Finally, I exploded at them one day and pointed out that my southern family had taught me to recognize others' holidays because it was COURTEOUS!

These morons get so locked into "PC" mind, they never stop to think.

[win_in_06]

12. I'm sure you guys are right, but this is a big deal to fundies:

Falwell: "We are winning the Christmas war"

In his last televised Sunday sermon before Christmas, Moral Majority founder and Faith and Values Coalition national chairman Reverend Jerry Falwell announced, "we are winning the Christmas war"



http://mediamatters.org/items/200412220004

[Orangepeel]

17. of course they are winning. they are fighting an imaginary foe

I think that I am going to wage a war against people who want to ban rainbows. Lookee there! I think I'm winning!

[Shyriath]

19. Everything's a big deal to fundies.

After all, weren't they the ones wetting their collective pants at the miracle of girders forming a cross in the ruins of the World Trade Center? Never mind the near-identical thousands of other girder instersections that were lying around in the pile...

They can claim victory all they want. It won't make them any more right.

[Zen Democrat]

22. Well, they are desperate to win some kind of war. They lost

the War on Drugs, and Iraq isn't looking too good.

[longship]

13. Time for Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc. to boycott.

:evilgrin:

[expatriot]

18. I am an atheist who loves Christmas. The day is what you make it.

It is the winter festival of the hegemony and its approval rating is astronomical, to actively war against the marketing to it by the corporate hegemony is for all practical purposes very counter-productive.

[niyad]

14. don't forget that nearly everything about "christmas" was "borrowed"

from other cultures, especially the pagan ones. think about saturnalia, winter solstice, yule, etc. etc. it annoys ME that these arrogant xian jerks cannot stand to see anything other than their own, stolen holidays, addressed.
it might not hurt them to shut up, before the pagans start pointing out on a daily basis that just about all the xian holidays are stolen and bastardized.

[kineneb]

25. yup, gonna get out that horned helmet and burn a log on the day

sounds like fun and ol' Odin will appreciate the thought.

(with German and Norwegian ancestors, I can look downright scary in a dirndl...add the fake horned helmet...get serious Germanic thing going...)

break out "What's Opera, Doc?"!

[Shyriath]

16. Look, I may not be Christian...

...and there have been, in fact, quite a few instances where I've gotten annoyed at religious issues popping up in places I think they have no business being. But this is not one of those instances.

I would imagine that most people in this country, Christian or not, celebrate Christmas for whatever reason. Wanting to put up banners recognizing this is, to put it mildly, something I can understand.

Does this mean that Christmas is the only holiday worthy of note? Of course not.

Should stores like Macy's try to recognize the non-Christian holidays of the season? Certainly they should.

But it seems to me that it would make more sense, rather than taking down "Merry Christmas" signs, to put up signs for Hanukkah and Kwanzaa and such, maybe sprinkle in some "Happy Holidays" signs for good measure. It isn't as if they don't have plenty of space in those stores to hang such things in, and it would be only right for them to do so. But removing "Merry Christmas" signs, in the end, will probably alienate more people than it satisfies.

[seabeyond]

20. i switch from merry xmas, happy holiday, happy xmas, merry

holidays. who cares.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

23. Who cares?

"Merry Christmas" is not a religious greeting. Most people barely associate Christmas with Christianity anymore. Plus they're a private business so they can say whatever they want so long as they don't discriminate.

[win_in_06]

24. That's just it. By saying Merry Christmas some feel they discriminate.

[NYC Liberal]

61. How do they discriminate?

Are they refusing to serve non-Christians? Making it more difficult for non-Christians to purchase from their store? What?

[baron j]

26. Good! I'm glad. I hope Macy's and other corporate retail chains

offend many people who don't practice Christmas, and it hurts their sales, causing those people to buy from locals.

[win_in_06]

27. Well last year they took away Merry Christmas and lost money.

That's why they brought it back.

[tritsofme]

28. I don't think I've ever met someone

that was so offended by a banner that they refused to patronize a particular store.

[tsuki]

29. Doesn't matter to us. We are boycotting the commercialization

of Christmas. Most of my progressive friends feel the same way. So the Fundie Base may be the only ones putting themselves in hock from October to September every year for one day.

[RebelOne]

31. Merry Christmas does not bother me at all and I am an atheist. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

33. Anyone who is "offended" by a cheerful "Merry Christmas" greeting...

... is hyper-sensitive and needs to get a life.

"How was your day honey?"
"It absolutely sucked! It was going great until someone wished me a.... Merry.... Christmas!"

A friendly holiday greeting is not shoving religion down people's throats. If Macy's was piping the "Our Father" prayer over their PA system then *that* would be shoving religion down people's throats.

[yellowcanine]

34. "Merry Christmas"? How about the canned Christmas carols? Now those I

despise, with or without words.

[Silent3]

35. It's separation of church and STATE...

...which is most important to me. Macy's is private business, and should be free to do whatever it likes in this regard (so long as it doesn't extend to creating a discriminatory environment for its employees). Consumers should be free to express any sentiment they wish, fair or unfair, religiously biased or otherwise, through how they vote with their dollars. We're all free to use our freedoms to try to convince others to be more inclusive as well.

I'm philosophically agnostic, functionally atheist... yet I love Christmas. As far as I'm concerned, Christmas is a very old winter solstice holiday to which many different cultures have attached meanings and traditions, and I'm happy to celebrate it in my own way with my own meanings and my favorites things from the grab bag of historical traditions. It doesn't bother me calling Christmas Christmas, not being a Christian, any more than it bothers me to call Los Angeles Los Angeles, not being a believer in angels.

"Happy Holidays" might be a more inclusive greeting than "Merry Christmas", but then again, "soft drink" is a more inclusive and less regional term than "soda", and I'd feel more like a talking TV ad than a normal human being if I started asking friends who visit if they'd like to have a "soft drink".

[win_in_06]

38. To me it seems hypocritical to claim to be atheist and love Christmas

which is the celebration of the birth of Christ.

[RebelOne]

44. To an atheist, it's not the religious aspect.

It is the spirit of the holiday.

[win_in_06]

46. The spirit? So it's a spiritual holiday? Fundies would agree.

[Bridget Burke]

56. Yes, it's a celebration of the Winter Solstice.

And December 25th was Dies Natalis Solis Invicti--"Feast of the Unconquerable Sun, for all you non-Mithras-worshippers out there. And let's not forget Saturnalia!

Blue-nosed Puritans banned the holiday because of its Pagan (& Romish) roots. But rowdy immigrants arrived & blue noses went out of fashion. (Not entirely, alas.) So our modern Christmas evolved.

Members of other faiths have holidays at roughly the same time. Why should they be excluded?

New Year's Day is one of the "Happy Holidays." Even the non-religious may want to contemplate of passage of time. Or they might just want something nice to eat, something good to drink, time with friends & lots of lights.

[Silent3]

45. Would you move out of Los Angeles...

just because you didn't believe in angels?

[Nye Bevan]

51. I'm British and I love the 4th of July....

... but I do have to endure several snide remarks from my American coworkers every year!

[noonwitch]

36. This is all bullshit thought up by people who think they are victims

Why are the fundies so offended if a check-out clerk says "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas"? I don't have a problem with any of the three.

When I worked in a store, we said whatever after concluding a sale. I probably said all three at various times, if for no other reason, because I didn't want to say the same thing after each sale. It's like when I'm greeting people at church-sometimes I say "Good Morning", or "Welcome", or whatever greeting comes to mind.

[Bridget Burke]

60. And they won the fight.

It doesn't really matter to many of us.

But the Religious Right mounted a campaign against Macy's (& other stores) for having their employees use religion-neutral greetings. It's part of their "Christianity Under Attack" lie.

I wish the Blue-Nosed-Puritans would go back to ignoring the Holidays & let those of good cheer celebrate as we wish.

[high density]

39. Who cares?

If you don't like it and feel that Christianity ends up invading you in some way because of a "Merry Christmas" banner, go shop somewhere else. They want to make money and most Americans celebrate Christmas in some form, so I don't really see what the problem is here.

I agree with the earlier poster that it's a marketing thing, not a religious one.

[formernaderite]

43. this is all just so stupid

I'm an atheist and realize the reason people are buying all that crap is CHRISTMAS!!!! Have people gone crazy? Why would that be offensive, give me a break.

[AuntPatsy]

50. Bingo ;-)

[Bridget Burke]

54. Concerned Women for America won their campaign.

CWA was founded by Beverly LaHaye, wife of Rev Tim (Left Behind) LaHaye. Its purpose was to oppose the Equal Rights Amendment. The group has stayed around as a PR arm of the Religious Right. Here's part of an article from 2003:

Remember those little yellow smiley buttons that seemed so cheerful at first but then drove everyone mad because of their underlying insincerity? Well, “Happy Holidays” is even worse: It might even be a form of bigotry.

Oh, I know that most folks don’t mean it that way, but hear me out.

The phrase used to be another way to say “Merry Christmas.” Now, it’s a way to avoid any recognition of Christmas.

Everyone knows that the shopping and carols and nonstop “holiday” advertising are about Christmas. Santa Claus is not here to deliver a groundhog for Groundhog Day, or even to preside over Ramadan, Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. So why does the word Christmas have to be censored?

www.cwfa.org/articles/5040/CFI/misc/

The address of the Chairman of the Board of Federated Stores is included. They bowed to Right Wing pressure. (If you click on the link above, check out the rest of CWA's agenda.)

Here's MediaMatters' rundown on the "Christmas Under Siege" meme; Fox News leads the way: http://mediamatters.org/items/200412100006

Here's a book: "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought" by John Gibson (of Fox News). With the usual bunch of hilarious reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1595230165/qid=1132167220/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8003467-1033556?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Zynx]

57. Are we going to drop the names christopher and christian for people and

anything to do with saints or religious figures for cities and colleges too? Seriously people, get a life.

[Rocknrule]

58. Personally, I don't see how Christmas today is offensive to anyone

These days, it's more about consumerism and going through hell at shopping malls to buy stuff and characters like Santa and Frosty and Rudolph and Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo and hardly at all about the birth of Christ. These days, the religious meaning of the holiday is almost completely ignored, so it's not really a religious holiday anymore, or at least it doesn't seem like one. Like I said once, there are 2 kinds of Christmas carols: Jesus songs and Santa/Frosty/Rudolph/go-out-and-buy-stuff songs.

[AX10]

59. Well, for those who are of the Jewish Faith, maybe being...

assaulted for 2000 years + is just too much. Maybe they are sick of being falsly blamed for Christs death?!? Many Jewish people feel that some Christians may want to convert them (they've tried for 2000 years). You never know.

[LSdemocrat]

66. I don't see what that has to do with someone saying Merry Christmas

[boobooday]

62. They want to steal the flag, Jesus, and now Christmas

Well, they're not going to succeed. I will celebrate Christmas, and wish people Merry Christmas in my usual spirit of atheist pagan consumerism.

God, I hate it when they try to take Jesus out of the Capitalist Temples of Mall.



:eyes: :eyes:

[WinkyDink]

63. Well, excuuuuuse me!

But MY pet peeve is that, while "Christmas" is being omitted more and more, "Kwanzaa" is heard all that week!
Not bad for a late-20th Century deal.

[Generator]

65. Oh please

Christmas is about as secular as possible these days. Capitalism won. Merry Christmas is code for buy buy buy. I have no problem with that EITHER. I like presents. Who gives a crap what it means to fundies? Do they live with me? No, they do not. Merry Christmas means happiness to my kids. It means Santa Claus. It means presents and FOOD. To me, it means coffee drinks. Did I mention the presents? I just explained to my daughter why on QVC they already have a CHRISTMAS tree up-to sell stuff. Stuff is good. Stuff is king. Stuff won. Oh and we are pagan/atheist/agnostic/gnostics here. I LOVE Christmas. It's the pagan holiday the Christians could never shut down.

[Hippo_Tron]

67. Alright, who would be opposed to this Macy's banner?

"Have a Merry Christmas Mr. President. Those kids you sent to Iraq sure will..."



Anybody see my point here?

[Geek_Girl]

69. I'd prefer Merry Yule

but Merry Christmas is good too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Serious Christians hate the way that stores, no matter who owns them,

start playing Christmas carols over the PA and bringing out the fir wreathes and colored lights and Dickens villages as soon as the Halloween stuff is taken down.

I flew home from Japan on November 1, and United Airlines already had Christmas carols of some sort on nearly every channel of its audio program. :wtf:

When I was a kid, Christmas decorations never went up until the day after Thanksgiving. The unveiling of the Christmas decorations was a real EVENT, and everyone went downtown to see how the stores had decorated their windows and their Santa Claus lands.

In the REAL religious observance of Christmas, the four Sundays before December 25 are the four Sundays of Advent, a penitential season. Advent has its own customs (lighting candles after the reading of Bible verses, fasting in some varieties of Christianity), its own music, and its own liturgical color (purple).

If you're following the traditional rules, you don't even sing Christmas carols until Christmas Eve, but it stays Christmas in church until January 6, when the season of Epiphany begins.

Thanks to the commercial version of the holiday, clergy get parishioners begging to sing Christmas carols in church and not wanting to sing them after Christmas.

[lynne]

72. Good for Macy's. I'm about fed up with the PC hysteria -

- that is turning us all into cookie-cutter Stepford-type people devoid of any individuality or heritage.

What is important is the spirit of the message. I'll gladly accept a Happy Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or whatever said in sincerity. Macy's is a corporation and they have the right to say what they want. If they've got the guts to take the heat, more power to them.

[win_in_06]

73. Well they took the heat when they didn't say what they wanted,

or at least what the people wanted, and that is to say Merry Christmas.

[OneTwentyoNine]

76. Whatever,who cares...don't make this another ridiculous wedge issue...

Republicans live for this crap,in fact they encourage it to keep people from focusing on their real agenda,their crap economy,unending War,tax breaks for the rich and on and on.

While we should be fighting them over those issues we spend all our time on Guns and God. Shit if Macy's wants to display Merry Christmas then live with it and stifle the controversy.

[Kukesa]

78. I agree, I agree, I agree. Enough already. n/t

[win_in_06]

79. Exactly. Could imagine seeing an initiative on the ballot in a red state?

Vote to save Christmas!

[npincus]

77. stores who display "Merry Christmas" should be mindful to

include "Happy Hanukah", otherwise I don't really care.

[jillan]

80. I was taught to say Happy Holidays to be polite.

You never know who you are going to offend.

But then again, we are talking about the U.S. under the bushit administration. They don't have any manners.

[ibegurpard]

81. Yawn

eom