Forget the south? Are you kidding?

[Blue_Roses]

surely the threads that say "forget the south," have some reasonable explanation that justifies something that sounds so careless.

Not only is the south JUST as important as the rest of the nation, it's actually more so in many ways. We have high unemployment--poverish--unemployment, and much of the health care is dependent upon medicaid (thank-God for medicaid). To carelessly say, "forget the south," just because one thinks a candidate will not be viable, is reckless, thoughtless, and irresponsible.

Isn't that what electing a Democratic President helps to bring--stability with social issues--something that is severely lacking with the Bush administration.

The south desperately needs a Democratic President who cares, we already have a Republican one who has written us off, except for his brief "photo-ops."

Edited: this isn't about Kerry or any other candidate running. It's about voters who think that Bush may have a strong-hold in the south--which is extremely vunerable and ripe for a Democratic President--due to the factors I mentioned in my post.

[creativelcro]

1. it just confirms that kerry is

an idiot.

[sangh0]

2. So why has Dean cancelled his TV ads in Southern states?

Has Dean decided to "Forget the South"?

[eileen_d]

3. Please show me where Kerry said "forget the south"

or implied that he will be doing that.

[Blue_Roses]

13. I've NEVER heard Kerry say

forget the south NOR do I think he would.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=221433

[flpoljunkie]

26. Kerry said Gore proved it possible, but not a strategy he would recommend

or employ.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Marked

as inflammatory.

[Blue_Roses]

11. How is this thread

inflammatory? I live in the south--I know--not to mention I lived in Texas for 10 years. We need leadership not a propped up puppet.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. Not the thread...

Just the post I specifically replied to.

[atre]

45. Let me get this straight?

You lived in Texas for ten years and you still don't realize that Texas is NOT part of the South?

[Blue_Roses]

47. What's your point?

n/t

[Monte Carlo]

7. He said "stop treating the South like a different country"...

... not 'forget the South'. That was someone at ABC News being cute.

[Blue_Roses]

this was in response to a voter

not from anything Kerry said.

[Blue_Roses]

16. this was in response to a voter

not from anything Kerry said.

[jsw_81]

34. And Dean is a genius?

Is that why he's losing from coast to coast?

[Doctor_J]

4. Then why do they vote straght GOP?

====
The south desperately needs a Democratic President who cares, we already have a Republican one who has written us off, except for his brief "photo-ops."
====

If the Repubs have written off the South, why is their congressional delegation almost 100% GOP?

[Blue_Roses]

10. Exactly--

Believe it or not, Texas was once a Democratic state with a wonderful Democratic governor, named Ann Richards. Then came Karl Rove.

[democratreformed]

19. Because we Southern Democrats have much work to do

Lest we be written off and forgotten for all eternity.

[Blue_Roses]

29. I agree and it can be done

I am so ready to have a nominee that I can and will work my butt off for down here. Right now, I'm just watching to see how this thing plays out, but maybe after March 2, it will be clearer how to approach the strategy that will be used here.

[carolinayellowdog]

24. Define "almost 100%" and then we can weigh your logic

But unless you have an extremely loose definition, you are working from a false premise.

[mohc]

28. yeah...

I for one live in TN, where the congressional delegation is 5-4 Democratic. Neighboring NC is 7-6 Republican, hell MS is 2-2 split and TX is 16-16. The only southern state where there is a significant Republican advantage is FL (18-7), which just so happens to be the one state people do not consider writing off. Yes, a lot of these guys are blue dogs, but they still vote for Pelosi when we pick leaders.

[Meldread]

6. I agree.

The sad part is that you might as well forget about the South if Kerry is elected. It'll be a complete waste of money to even put Ads on TV down there because he won't win a single state.

Everyone was quick to jump on the "electability" bandwagon, and didn't look where they were jumping. At least Dean has a record that he can stand on and doesn't have to flip-flop every time something in the polls isn't popular. That's one good thing you can say about Joe Lieberman -- at least he is standing by his votes.

Dean has said what you have already said and that's his plan for how to win the South. He understands. That's what sets him apart from Kerry -- who only lifted his platform when he saw it was working. Combine that with the fact that Nader will likely run against him, and you might as well say hello to another four years of Bush.

[sangh0]

9. Then why is dean cancelling his ads in SC?

Kerry is competing in SC. Dean is holding back in the South, preferring to save his money to fight in the MidWest

[Meldread]

14. Dean isn't writing off the South like Kerry is...

Dean is just picking his battles. He's making a play for delegates and he's choosing to play in states that he has a better chance of picking up those delegates. Once he wins the nomination he will be able to earn enough money to re-focus on the south. Besides Dean has been running Ads in the up-coming states long before the others. He's just running low on cash.

[sangh0]

15. Dean isn't picking any battles in the South. Kerry is

You can twist Kerry's words all you want, but the proof is in the pudding. Kerry *IS* competing in the South. He has devoted resources to the South and he even kicked his campaign off in SC.

Dean is withdrawing from the competition in SC.

he's choosing to play in states that he has a better chance of picking up those delegates.

States which are not in the South.

[Meldread]

20. No. I am not talking about in the Primaries.

I am talking about in the General Election. It'd be stupid for Kerry to not try and make a play for the south in a democratic primary. Why? Because he doesn't have to run against a Republican, but once he enters the General Election all bets for the South are off.

[sangh0]

22. Dean IS writing off the South in the primaries

and I'm glad that you acknowledge that. So how is Dean going to get their votes in the GE (when and if he wins the nom) after ignoring them in the primaries? Does he think the South is going to forget that they had no hand in selecting Dean?

[Meldread]

23. Kinda hard to campaign there...

when you don't have enough money. Don't you think it's faulty logic to make that argument? "Oh you should campaign there even though you don't have enough money to make a real impact!"

I'm glad you don't work as a campaign strategist.

[sangh0]

30. So Dean *IS* writing off the South

I find it a bit hypocritical to complain about Kerry's writing off the South while Kerry is actually campaigning in the South, while at the same time defending Dean who is withdrawing from the competition in the South.

[creativelcro]

17. Dean realized that the TV ads cost a lot and don't give much

back in return. He's not given up the south...

[citizen snips]

8. The south needs a president who cares.

Kerry seems to disagree. If Kerry chooses to ignore the south then he will lose badly in the south.

[bryant69]

12. This is actually an interesting question

The South believes itself to be the most important part of the nation; the soul of the nation if you will. Republicans basically support them in that belief, although it is hard for me to understand why people from Atlanta are such paragons of American vertue and people from Boston are such liberal communist jerks (not to mention Californians). But symbolically the Republicans believe that, and, in some way, I suppose the rest of us have bought into it.

But electorally, it might make sense to focus on Texas and Florida and ignore the rest of the south in the general election.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[democratreformed]

18. This Southerner does not believe we are the most important part of the

nation. But, we may very well be the part that is hurting the most. I haven't done alot of research, but I do know that my state (Arkansas) has the highest poverty level of any in our nation (18%). I do know that we have traditionally battled Louisiana and Mississippi for being the absolute lowest on every good thing (schools, etc.) and highest on every bad thing (teen pregnancy, etc.)
In the past couple of years, the other two states have begun to see some improvement in some areas. Our state, with its glorius Republican Mike Huckabee governor is being left in the dust.

I, for one, intent to work my butt off to rebuild the Democratic stronghold in the South from the ground up. I will be working in local, state, and Congressional elections this year. (By the way, our legislators are mostly Democrats - Vic Snyder, Marion Berry, Blanche Lincoln, Mark Pryor, etc.)

Candidates for President should choose to write off the South at their own expense. We will rise again to become a leading Democratic part of the country. (Boy, don't I sound optimistic - I sure plan on doing everything I can to see that it happens).

Yes, we need Democratic leadership - in a very bad way.

[southerngirlwriter]

38. "the soul of the nation" ???

I don't know. I've never lived anywhere else. I have no basis for comparison.

Here's what I do know. My two best friends in life have lived all over the country. Between the two of them, they've spent at least a year in 39 of the 50 states. Both of them say that the South is the only part of the country where people say "sir" and "ma'am," where people will let you merge in traffic, where people will stop and ask if you need help if you're broken down on the side of the road, where people ask "how ya doin'?" and actually listen for the answer, where people you don't know will stop and help you pull your car out of a ditch and refuse to let you pay them, where you can make a real friend in line at the post office, etc., etc., etc. They say that the people here are a million times friendlier, nicer, and more compassionate than anywhere else in this country.

So, that's what my two best friends (one of whom is apolitical, hs never voted and probably never will, and one of whom makes most of DU look like freepers, he's so liberal) think about the South being "the soul of the nation." They say it is.

[SaveElmer]

42. South is a lost cause at the Presidential level

For the Democrats at the Presidential level. In order to even be remotely competitive there we have to pour tons of resources in, and pander our message to try and attract southern white conservatives. It isn't worth it. We should be concentrating on the midwest, west and southwest where there are far more swing voters who would be more receptive to our true message. I truly believe we are for more likely to see a shift our way in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Montana, than in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, either of the Carolinas or Tennessee. The only southern states I would put an effort into are Florida, which demographically and politically is more akin to the southwest, and West Virginia, which is closer to being a midwestern state that a southern one.

[Blue_Roses]

46. "it isn't worth it"

so you think that it's gonna be this way if we have a Democratic President elected?

[mrgorth]

21. Forget the south.

[LoneStarLiberal]

25. Any Regional Bias in the Race Will...

(the first part is for the general election)

The offices of President and Vice President are for the United States of America, not for New England, the East Coast, the South, the Midwest, the Southwest or the West Coast.

Any candidate that fails to run a national campaign can be assured of defeat.

Concentrating your efforts is different from ignoring whole regions. The most basic reason you don't forget ANY region is because if you don't contest it you're saving your opponent a lot of money and time by making it a cakewalk for him (him being President Cornelius).

(this part is for the primaries)

"Forgetting" regions in the primaries is a bit more strategic but still foolish in a crowded field. Running a basic campaign is better than completely ignoring a region or state (look no further than the pickle my man Wes Clark finds himself in due to skipping Iowa and being caught by Kerry's and Edwards' momentum) because you are essentially forfeiting delegates to your opponents.

Forget the South, forget any region, and you can forget 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

[carolinayellowdog]

27. Southern delegations

Here is the D percentage of each Southern state, and the raw numbers. I have used only the 11 states of the Confederacy, and listed them in descending order:

AR 5/6= 83.3%
LA 5/9= 55.5%
TX 16/34= 47.0%
NC 7/15= 46.6%
TN 5/11= 45.4%
GA 6/15= 40%
SC 3/8= 37.5%
FL 9/27= 33.3%
MS 2/6= 33.3%
VA 3/13= 23.0%
AL 2/9= 22.2%

Dems who would ignore AR and LA because they are part of a despised region, despite all evidence of their winnability, are bigots who would cost us the election in the name of purity. Fortunately, no candidate would dare think about this issue the way many DUers obviously do. The election is won state by state, not by region.

[Blue_Roses]

31. I didn't realize

that AR had a higher Dem percentage than LA. Wow... Louisiana is so much more liberal in many ways, such as casinos and lotteries. Arkansas won't even let a lottery pass.

[democratreformed]

32. This is just showing our percentage of Senators and Congressmen

who are Democrats. We have to improve on that!! And, I am sincerely looking forward to our next governor's race.

[jsw_81]

35. But Louisiana is extremely conservative on abortion rights

I think Planned Parenthood gave Louisiana the only "F" rating of any state because of the lack of family planning info. available, lack of sex education courses in public schools, lack of clinics etc.

[southerngirlwriter]

36. Our party has never won an election without

carrying at least four Southern states.

Kerry can ONLY do that if he has the sense to put a Southerner on the ticket as VP and keep the VP down here campaigning, and campaigning hard.

The "forget the South" stuff is so much elitism -- something Southerners can spot a hemisphere away, and, as a prideful people, will carry with them into the ballot box to vote for * just out of spite.

"Forget the South" Democrats are GUARANTEEING a second * term.

[democratreformed]

37. Most important reply to your edit

I, too, believe the South, as a whole, is ready for Democratic principles to once again become predominant. I think the economic circumstances will greatly help voters in the South be receptive to our party's message this time around.

One thing I have been asked to do by my local Democratic club is to write a column for our county's newspaper outlining some of the lasting programs enacted by the Democratic party. He has already talked to the paper's editor who has agreed it would be a good idea and that he will print it. Now, it's all up to me. I just hope that I can write something that makes a powerful statement about the many many good things that past Democratic leaders have done for all Americans. Anybody care to provide some input?

I have been studying history very hard for about two weeks. I purchased some "Student Handbooks" from Heritage Publishing in 2002. One of those has a year by year history that lists major things that occured in each year in several categories. One of those categories is politics. The Democratic party has a rich and lasting history which, I think, will speak volumes to the voters in the South who are suffering much in these trying times. Like I said, it is up to me to be able to articulate it in a great way.

P.S. Any of our candidates who chooses to ignore the South at this crucial times is seriously missing the opportunity to greatly advance the cause of our party.

[Blue_Roses]

41. be sure and check out

www.historychannel.com

When I need to check a quick fact without all the editorial stuff.

[democratreformed]

43. Thanks for the tip n/t

[carolinayellowdog]

39. Misplaced concreteness fallacy

Hey,

Much of the anti-South rhetoric thrown around DU evidences the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. Here are some words on the fallacy from A. H. Johnson, in his Whitehead's Theory of Reality, pp. 150-51:

Misplaced Concreteness
In criticizing the work of previous thinkers, Whitehead points to a persistent tendency on the part of many to perpetrate the Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness. This, as the title indicates, consists in mistaking the abstract for the concrete... general illustration of the fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness is the Substance-Quality concept. This is the notion that each real entity is absolutely separate and distinct from every other real entity, and that the qualities of each have no essential relation to the qualities of others.

As has been said, Whitehead objects to these three variations of the Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness because they involve a "break up" of the real continuity of experience. He admits the practical usefulness of these fallacies. His objection is to the use of these patterns of thought without recognizing their serious deficiencies.

END QUOTE

The serious deficiency comes in regarding the abstract category "Southerner" as a concrete reality which can be described without any acknowledgment that millions of varied individuals fall under the same name. And without acknowledging any distinction among Southern states (or for that matter non-Southern ones which are free from the taint of racism.) The break up of the continuity of American experience that comes from applying this fallacy to "Southerners" has been often proved here. E.g. "Southerners are poor and backward." Fact: Virginia ranks 11th in per capita income. E.g. "Southerners voted overwhelmingly for Bush in the 2000 presidential election." (Stated often with its corollary, that Something is Terribly Wrong with THESE PEOPLE.) Fact: Gore carried one Southern state and was within a few points of winning three others.

I bet many of the DUers that attack Southerners in this way, treating us all as the enemy, all poor, backwards, fundamentalist, etc., would bristle if the same sweeping insults were directed at "Americans" as a category-- as if all Americans were alike and all were morally responsible for the disaster in Washington.

CYD

[democratreformed]

40. Very interesting

You are correct, IMO.

[creativelcro]

44. Fallacious concrete misplacement