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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:49 PM
Original message
Sheehan thrashing 'war hawk' Hillary
Cindy Sheehan, the so-called "peace mom" on a crusade to end U.S. involvement in the Iraq war, is publicly blasting Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., for her continued support of the ongoing conflict.

"I think she is a political animal who believes she has to be a war hawk to keep up with the big boys," Sheehan writes in an open letter posted on anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore's website. "I would love to support Hillary for president if she would come out against the travesty in Iraq. But I don't think she can speak out against the occupation, because she supports it. I will not make the mistake of supporting another pro-war Democrat for president again: As I won't support a pro-war Republican."

---cut---

She was granted a meeting with Sen. Clinton to discuss the war effort, but says the Democrat "apparently" didn't listen, as the senator told a reporter for the Village Voice, "My bottom line is that I don't want their sons to die in vain. ... I don't believe it's smart to set a date for withdrawal. ... I don't think it's the right time to withdraw."

"That sounds like Rush Limbaugh to me," Sheehan said. "That doesn't sound like an opposition party leader speaking to me. What Sen. Clinton said after our meeting sounds exactly like the Republican Party talking points I heard from Senators Dole and McCain."

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46919
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I see it as a message to all spineless Democrats
in office.......
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madmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. All the Dem congresspeople that voted for it should be thrashed;
Anybody that voted for it is either incompetent or complicit (Sheehan's political analysis of HC's reasons is probably dead on).
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Personally, I agree with Cindy
I know there are some here who like Hillary, but her Iraq War stance is one of many things that turn me off. Cindy's agenda is peace, and it makes sense that she won't support anyone for president who isn't for peace in Iraq.
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Me too
I still respect Hillary and appreciate her stances on many issues but I find her continued support of our presence in Iraq completely unacceptable. Cindy is indeed being consistent and I applaud her for it.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
74. Go Cindy ~ Hilliary needs a spine!
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. you know she is right
johnson did the same same thing in Viet Nam. While all indications were that Kennedy was NOT going to commit more effort to Viet Nam, Johnson thought otherwise



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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. good for Cindy
Saying what needs to be said.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
62. And showing she isn't a partisan. (nt)
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm not happy with Hillary's stance on the war
But I would appreciate it if Cindy didn't campaign in NYC or NYS actively against her. I don't want Cindy to end up helping Jeanine Pirro by dividing the base for voters. Hillary has done a great job as Senator not including for Iraq War Resolution Vote.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
81. Hillary is campaigning for continuation of the war....Don't Blame Cindy!
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
93. Ignacio...please tell me what she has done that is good
I have asked this question repeatedly of H. Clinton supporters and all they say is "she is just great". Please. Sell me on her. What has she done that is so great for New York? What is so great about her CONTINUED support of the Iraq/Afghani War long past the IWR.

This is not meant to call you out...I really want to know what Clinton supporters like about her. Specifically. Not a soul has answered my question yet.

Thanks for your time.
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Marleyb Donating Member (736 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
95. The clear majority are now against the war
and want to bring the troops home now. These numbers overlap into republican territory. Whichever candidate takes a stand against the war will win. Simple.

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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. I heard Randy Rhodes say Cindy was going to co-host with her.
Anybody know when that will be and for how long? Will she take calls?
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think it's great that Clinton talked to her.
She is certainly entitled to her point of view. If that makes people not vote for her, she'll have to deal with that.

The reasons for war that were given convinced many Americans. Trust in a leader in her -- of all people proves that she's willing to lend support.

It's very possible many people will discover "flip flopper" is not a derogatory description.

At least Sheehan is brave enough to ask some questions. Bless her. I hope some future President makes her an ambassador of some kind.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am not supporting any Democrats who support the Iraq war.
I already wrote one of my Senators Dianne Feinstein years ago that she would not be getting my vote after voting for the IWR. I subsequently found out that her husband, Richard Blum, stood to profit from the rebuilding of Iraq. It would be interesting to know who gets what on the Democratic side, who are supporting this craziness. Cindy is outspoken and that is why she is where she is now. There is no reason for her to stop speaking truth to power.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
87. are you supporting repugs?
If the choice is between a repug and Democrat who "supports" the war -- will you attempt to distinguish between them to see if their "support" means different things? Will you stay home? Will you vote for the repug? Will you write in Sheehan?

Reality check: the name of the game is politics. The goal is getting elected. I understand the concept of voting on principle. I understand the concept of an echo not a choice. But after 6 years of Bush rule you should be able to tell the difference between even the least progressive Dem and the most progressive repug.

onenote
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. Hillary sounds like the dicks during Nam. I hate this stance and I
don't trust her. Dying in vain? Then send CHELSEA, you twit! Either put a child up or do the right thing. Easy enough.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. Then don't nominate her
That's what primaries are for, and I hope Cindy will vote in the party primaries to articulate her point of view.

But I'm warning people that once the primaries are over, it's time for everybody to shut up and support the candidate that rank and file Democrats have voted to nominate.

Hillary Clinton is preferable to George W. Bush's stand-in candidate in 2008.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
58. Or what?
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
65. Cyber Threats
Very intimidating. Me? I'll take my chances with you. I'm done mindlessly voting for any Democrat, including general elections, who doesn't actually represent my views, starting with this bullshit war.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
77. Do we use the same voting machines in the primaries as we do when we
vote for President?

Just askn'
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Marleyb Donating Member (736 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #77
96. WE USE THE SAME VOTING MACHINES IN THE PRIMARIES
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 12:49 PM by Marleyb
AS WE DO IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION!!!!

Thanks, Beam Me Up, I thought that needed to be repeated.

How are we going to make sure that the pro corporate war types don't steal the primary and give us no choice...again. These pro corporation types have all the same connections as Bushco and they seem to be on the same side.

We have to expose electronic voting before the primaries.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hillary has no entitlement to be president.
I can't think of anything she's done to earn it. I am appalled by her continued support for this horrific entanglement.

It's smug.
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skullj Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. I think that it is hilarious...
I think that it is hilarious that people have already chosen to assume Hilary will be the DNC candidate for president. It is still more than two years until the convention. A week before the democratic primaries people thought Howard Dean would sweep, and we all saw how that went.
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. I think it's hillarious people assume presidents "deserve" to be
presidents, no matter who they are. How do you "deserve" it, besides being able to get the most people to vote for you? I always thought presidents "won" it, or stole it, as the case may be. Deserve never seemed to be an issue.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. A slight correction:
Hillary will be the DLC candidate for president. There is no comparison between Dean and Hillary. Dean was from the "outside" vs Hillary with all of the "inside" levers of the party.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. Absolutely. Cindy needs to rail against the neo cons
whether they are Demlite or repuke.

this shameless war pandering has GOT TO STOP
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Cindy has stated CLEARLY-
This is NOT a Democratic or Republican issue.
GOOD for her on fearlessly calling out the war mongers on
BOTH sides of the aisle.
And DON'T get me started on the Clinton involvement
in allowing Walmart to place its evil roots in our country.
The Clintons are corporatists with a smile
and that is the ONLY difference between them and
the BFEE.
The smile.

BHN
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
83. Exactly. Bill said "I feel your pain" more convincingly.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. Ha, great minds think alike
My hat is off to Cindy for her insightful view.

There is only one way to solve Iraq and that's to leave. If they split apart, so what, the Brits should have never partitioned and established it that way to begin with. Besides that, there is nothing we can do now anyway, except be targets.

How is it we get in so many damn wars? Crap. They always seem to be for the corporations benefit too.

Let the Iraqi people solve their own damn problems. We have plenty right here to work on.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. "you people"?
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 07:27 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
BTW, welcome to DU. MKJ

edited to add: so, how long should we stay? 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

Iraq has all the components in place for a democracy....why should we stay any longer?

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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Rice said 10 years today.....You people, so if your son is 8yrs old now...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

He will be 18 in order to do his part in this grand crusade
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Deleted message
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madmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Civil war; malthusian corrections; and any other goddamn thing that
that those people want to endure. Iraq is not the 51st state. If Osama shows up we reserve the right to make a brief appearance to kill his ass. Otherwise, get the f**k out, and quit spending US money and lives there.
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skullj Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. How many lives?
How many Iraqi lives is one U.S. life worth? We broke it, we bought it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. The "Pottery Barn Rule" ala Colin Powell. A favorite talking point
usually from the RW. MKJ
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #37
82. The problem with that rule....
You break it, you own it....is that the United States can never rightfully own another people/nation. Mr. Powell (and Hillary) may not understand this.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Americans quit dying?? -eom
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Do you know what would happen?
If so, do you mind passing around your magic ball?

U.S. troops out NOW!
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skullj Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Do you really think a magic ball is necessary?
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 07:36 PM by skullj
Lets start simple. The majority of deaths in Iraq are caused by Sunni terrorists attacking Shiites trying to inflame sectarian violence. Without the U.S. troops providing security, Shiites would have no choice to defend themselves, and a civil war would quickly erupt, much like in Beirut, Lebanon, but over the entire country of 24 million people.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. I hear what you are saying
All options are bad. Pulling out lock, stock and barrel is a bad move, but it's the least bad of all possible options.
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skullj Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Of all options we have been given.
So far the only options we have been given by our seemingly inept leaders is "stay the course (i.e. maintain the status quo)", and immediately pull out of Iraq. We have been seriously hamstrung by this administrations inability to conduct diplomacy, but I think there are more options then to simply follow the lead of a broken, spiraling administration.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. "hamstrung by this administrations inability to conduct diplomacy"
You nailed that one. Diplomacy to this administration is leaking veiled threats to the Washington Times, and then making a trip to China 5 years into the administration by the pentagon secy. of defense rumms-filled.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. For those of us who were around during Vietnam, the arguments are the same
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 07:58 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
The difference between pulling out in May 1968 (first Paris peace talks) and finally pulling out completely (March 1973) was around 50,000 US military deaths.

And, we ended up leaving without any kind of "victory".

So, yeah, Iraq may will have to deal, but, speaking as a proud US Army vet, we don't need to kill off more of our own, for the sake of politics. MKJ
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
78. All options are bad because we have lost this war
All our choices now amount to deciding just how painful our losses are going to be. We're not going to be happy with what happens in Iraq: that's what defeat amounts to.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. Politcal suicide for Hillary to admit she is a warmonger
that voted for an insane man to occupy and invade a defenseless country on the notion of Pre--emptive strike.

Either she was playing politics with the lives of American troops, or she is actually in sinc with the neo-cons. I don't think Hillary herself knows where she is at and has not found the political compass, although she has thrown out several little foot in the water attempts to discern exactly where it is she needs to go

And that is simply being a wimp. I don't think we need that kind of tip toeing around when human beings are being killed and slaughtered every day.

I will not vote for anyone who voted for this folly of a war based on lies, and I will not buy it that they were "duped" by a ignoramus such as Bush. Their response was purely political, at the expense of the lives of almost 2000 American warriors.

No, I will not sign my name or my vote to any of them who supported this crap. Never.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
26. Cindy has now turned her crusade into a political game.
Before this I looked upon her as a mother with an axe to grind with Bush. Why did my son die? This may hurt her cause. I hope not.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #26
75. funny how those that she criticizes see it that way
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 10:29 AM by thebigidea
The Republicans said the same when she was criticizing Bush. Its ok to have a grieving mother speak out, but only when she agrees with you, eh?
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skullj Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
28. I wonder what the Kurds would say to Cindy. n/t
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. The same thing the Iranians would say...
"Thank you, Boosh."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Well, you seem to have more allegiance to the Kurds than our own military
Which branch was it you served in again?

MKJ
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Uh, that's Paul Hackett. I'm guessing you don't know who he is. n/t
MKJ
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. LOL - nailed it. -eom
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. LOL, I know, I'm being "accused" of impersonating Paul Hackett.
:rofl: MKJ
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. LOL - and here's a pic of me, at some lefty function or other....
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. ROFLMAO!
I KNEW I'd seen you somewhere before! MKJ

:rofl: :rofl:
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
41. I will feel better about Hillary when Chelsea enlists...
sorta putting your money where your mouth is...or putting the love of your life on the line. If Chelsea is too dear to die in Iraq, so are all of our children.
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leetrisck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #41
59. The republican line - why Chelesa? Hillary Clinton
cannot send troops to war - only the "so-called" commander in thief. This is rush limpballs all the way. bush does something - trash Hillary and of all the low things to do - trash Chelesa. I would imagine if there is ever a draft, Chelesa would be drafted otherwise no parent has the right to send or not send their own kid because the kid makes their own decision. Or are you part of the "I would sacrifice my child" - that is not my right nor yours to sacrifice one's own child.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
42. Man! Not the "died in vain" mantra!!!
I don't want their sons to die in vain

So let's stay so more sons will die, then stay longer so their deaths will not be in vain which will mean more deaths, then an even longer stay as their deaths will not be in vain, which will mean even more deaths...Crap, I hate this twisted logic!!!

Get out now, then hold accountable those who lied us into this war...That's the way to make certain they didn't "die in vain."
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
46. Go Cindy!!!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
50. Senator Kerry would appreciate your support for Hillary
according to his letter, Senator Kerry is helping build a "powerful 'grassroots' movement into action to support the candidacy of Democrats like Hillary Clinton ... Senator Kerry is doing this through his PAC called "Keeping America's Promise" ...

here, he said it himself:


From the vitally important governors races this year in Virginia and New Jersey . . . to the campaigns of Senate colleagues like Hillary Clinton, Dianne Feinstein and Maria Cantwell . . . to key Democratic challengers like Bob Casey in Pennsylvania . . . with your help, Keeping Americas Promise is putting the strength of a powerful grassroots movement into winning key elections.


what i'd like to know is exactly which 'grassroots' Senator Kerry is referring to ???
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second edition Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #50
68. Well, I'm part of that grassroots effort- giving monthly to the DNC
-Dean grass roots effort,and I take a bit of an opposing point of view towards Cindi's comments. There are many differing opinions within the grassroots movement. Not all share the same ideals as Cindi. We can not be a one or two issue party and our candidates must be free to express their ideals. I don't think it is fair to tag any politician or person as non-grassroots simply because they differ in opinion and action. Cindi represents one issue and will vote as a one issue voter, I like my candidates to be more multi-faceted.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #68
109. I too am a grassroots monthly contributer
but I will not support a corporate puppet for our candidate, I want
someone who represents the American worker and the traditional Democratic values.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
97. Democratic
We are a minority party, He would like to change that.
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laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
51. I like Cindy but....
I think she is going off her rocker......she has no pull with N.Y. dems.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
52. "I will not make the mistake of supporting another pro-war Democrat..."
I will not make the mistake of supporting another pro-war Democrat for president again

I couldn't have said it better myself!
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
53. I completely CONCUR with Cindy's observations...
the problem with your missive, is your blind loyalty to Hillary's neo liberal (read colonialistic, world hegemony) proclevities of both Clinton's.

shame on you.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
54. As right as Cindy is (and she's dead on) at least Hillary met with her
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 10:20 PM by Hippo_Tron
Unlike a certain someone...
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
55. HIllary is going to continue her "moderate" position until after 2006
It would be political suicide for Hillary to demand an immediate withdraw of troops WHILE she is running for keeping her gig as Senator. That would be the issue they nail her on in New York.

She's going to drive down the the middle of the lane until she gets relected. Cindy should know that. If anything, Cindy is hurting Hillary's chances of maintaining her Senate seat which (if lost to a Repug), would be a worse solution.

I agree with Cindy, but I understand Hillary's political "strategy".
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. The problem with this Cindy is she tells the truth.
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 12:47 AM by Dr Fate
I'm not so sure supporting the Iraq War is a winning issue anymore-the polls are turning against it.

If Hill had just went with the truth from the get-go, rather than setting herself up as an eventual "flip-flopper"- she would not need this strategy of supporting the war for the midterms- with an option to oppose it later.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Hillary'strategy is a miserable failure
After spending the last 2 years attacking the Left and defending the war, she will be portrayed as a flip-flopper by the Right when she switches gears, and the Left will despise her even more.

Why Hillary when we have better qualified candidates who don't have a Bush ass kisser for a spouse?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. I want Hillary to win the Senate seat at least...unless another Dem can...
...take her down.

As for her running in 2008, nah...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #63
85. Hillary v. Pirro.... no contest!
Pirro is an idiot and she should go crawl back under the rock she came under.

Hillary in 2008... She hasn't given me any reason for me to vote for her.

No candidate and no party is entitled to my vote.
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
60. I'm with Ms. Sheehan. Hillary never had my 2008 support; she...
...definitely will not get it now. Go Clark!
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leetrisck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. I am a supporter of Cark & Hillary
so why didn't Cindy trash Clark - his position really isn't much different than Hillary's. So if Hillary never had your support, what difference does it make? Cindy has overdone the "grieving mother" - we have a lot of grieving mothers and fathers out here - sister, brothers, aunts, uncles, etc. and I for one do not appreciate my family members who are in "that" place being called warmongers. Cindy can go home and trash Diane Feinstein - her home state - New York supports Hillary and Hillary supports our soldiers - she'll get my vote if she runs.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. I wish we could stop "eating our own"
I am struggling right now, trying to think up a way that we can be true to ourselves without destroying other progressives. And it's not just Cindy and Hillary. I've seen this go on within progressive organizations and take a bloody toll of people's jobs and careers. Yet, I don't want us to be like the "just shut up and vote" Repukes, so it is a puzzlement.

Anybody got any new ideas to solve this problem?
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harlinchi Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
67. Don't get me wrong; I'll support the nominee.
I just think that those already in positions of leadership should assert that their support for the war was based on misleading intelligence. If Ms. Clinton were to say that it is wrong for us to be there, I'd listen more.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #61
86. you are correct, Clark isn't much better but he isn't a senator
or in a position of power(thankfully)at the moment like Hillary is..I am a ten year vet who served in Desert Storm and I would NEVER vote for either one. Supporting the troops is NOT sending them off to die in vain...
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leetrisck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. Supporting the troops also involves helping them when
they return home - military and veterans and Hillary has certainly done that. Would you support any veteran - like Kerry. You don't like Clark. Sounds republican - love those veterans while their arms and legs blown off but don't let them run for office - vote for a military deserter - like bush.
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GayCanuck Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
66. Hillary
will come around; she has been a true progressive her whole life and her "war hawking" is a temporary image projection that will change once the Democrats get back into power and end the illegal war in Iraq.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. But the Iraqis need US & UK troops right now
Let me begin by quoting one of the many anti-Hillary posts above:
"Let the Iraqi people solve their own damn problems."

Most Iraqis want democracy to take hold and provide the conditions for stability, security and prosperity. They took part in the elections and in the referendum on the constitution. The UN is backing the process (not the original invasion - but the process right now). The people of Iraq need help to rebuild their country and deal with the threat from fundamentalist insurgents (the kind of people who would send suicide bombers into a UN aid compound).

Yes - Bush lied about the reasons for going to war. So did Tony Blair. Yes - Hillary and others were wrong to support them. Yes - people like Al Gore and Howard Dean, who opposed the war from the beginning, have been proved right.

But we cannot go back in time, and the situation now is that most people in Iraq don't want US & UK troops (who remain in Iraq at the invitation of the elected government of Iraq - whether we like it or not) to leave immediately - like in the next 10 days. They need the support our troops can provide - especially in training-up the new Iraqi security forces.

I am not a Hillary fan but sometimes in politics you cannot take the easy way out of a problem. We (US & UK) are the ones who caused the current mess in Iraq and we have to help clear up that mess - whether we like it or not.

Has anyone seen Saving Private Ryan? Lots of soldiers got killed during the Normandy landings. Imagine if in 1944 - D-Day moms were saying "bring home our troops!". Like "Stop Liberating Europe - let them sort out their own problems".

Having said all that - no I will not sign up myself. But anyone who does sign up to join the military knows that there are risks involved. It's sad but true - we live in a world full of dangerous weapons, dangerous ideas and dangerous people.
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Marleyb Donating Member (736 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #70
94. The Iraqis want us to leave
If we are supposedly giving them a 'democracy', then why won't we listen to the will of the people?

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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. Hillary is a Rockefeller Republican parading as a Dem
She will not come around on her vote for Iraq because she does support it. She's a slave to AIPAC who wanted this war.
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GayCanuck Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
106. I agree
although she will cleverly disavow her hawklike ways when the timing is right and claim she was misled by the dope.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. Actually
Hillary was a right-wing extremist in her youth. She was an ardent supporter of Barry Goldwater in 1964.
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GayCanuck Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
105. maybe
but couldn't vote, as she was underage.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
98. that's playing politics with peoples' lives
I think we should demand transparency and honesty from our politicians.

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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
69. My thoughts, exactly, Cindy!
She sure calls them-as-she-sees them!

Of course, Hilary is just one-of-the-boys. And because she's SO aware of it, she'll never TRULY represent core DEM issues.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
73. I am against war. No man is so perfect that he can kill another
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 10:23 AM by higher class
without the wisest minds on earth using the the wisdom and knowledge of humanity exhausting every attempt at peace.

Democrats did not exhaust their wisdom - they counted up all the money and votes that were in it for them. Did they really think that the son or daughter of a person who voted for them wouldn't get killed or lose their mind? Of course, they didn't have to worry about votes from the thousands of Iraqis who were killed.

I cannot forgive them. By now, all of them who voted for the killing should have called a press conference and villified the Cheney administration for their devastating war lie.

May all our representatives who voted against the war be blessed.

GO, Cindy, GO!

I have always said that I would vote for any Dem that ran against a PNACer or the Fed Soc or the banking-corp-mil cabal. I have now decided that is a permission for a Dem to be a Republican.

I will do my duty to learn about any Dems who are really Republicans. And I will try to teach others about my findings.

But, voting is all in vain as long as we have election boards who can't see the fallacy of voting on Republican made hardware, Republican programmed software, planting Republich technicians and foreign technicians to flip switches and mis-direct results, Republican news networks who buy and control the exit polling, Republican news networks who call the vote, and stupid election board neaderthals who buy into and allow Republican guaranteed voting).

GO CINDY GO!

Wellstone -
First vote in the Senate - against Iraq War I
Last vote in the Senate - against Iraq War II

Bless Paul Wellstone.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. just as convenient as the WTC that put these bastards in power, was the
untimely death of Senator Wellstone, who most assuredly would be screaming at the top of his lungs at the daily outrages.

And as much as I would love to see a democrat and even more so a WOMAN be LAWFULLY AND LEGALLY elected to the White House, I don't believe Hillary is the one. She has masters other than the citizens of the United States. I am pretty much of the opinion we throw out the entire lot and start over. It is time to face the fact: the barrel is rotten. The rot has just about infected every apple. Throw it out and start over. And this time we are ever vigilant and purge the infected at the first sign of taint.

My lines in the sand: (1) if you voted for the bankruptcy bill, you sold out to MBNA and you are part of the problem. You should not be returned to Congress. And (2), if you will not vote for impeachment, you will not serve.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #80
88. I'm with you 100 %. You're right about the those who voted for the
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 11:19 AM by higher class
bankruptcy bill and any who would not vote for impeachment.

I don't understand why I thought Hillary spoke for me during the 1990's. I associate Biden with the bankruptcy bill passing and it galls me that he takes all that money from MBNA (which, ironically, is no longer headquartered in Deleware?) I can't wait to see what the others end up saying about the goings on now - stuff that appears to be looking like reason for impeachment or resignation or jail.

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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
76. Hillar wants to add 100,00 more troops to the army? Where will they come
from? Why do we need another 100,000 troops? For her neocon plans? She is mostly financed by Saudigroup, er Citigroup. She's not even a Goldwater republican anymore. She's the worst kind of political opportunist.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
101. Don't expect to ever see a "Camp Chelsea." n/t
n/t
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #76
104. They will come from the same place they currently do
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 01:38 PM by Nederland
Getting an additional 100k troops is easy, if you have the money--and you actually don't have to have a lot of money either. All you have to do is to raise sign on bonuses until the desired number of people enlist.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
79. IRAG IS MASS MURDER. What is so difficult to understand about that?
The invasion was based on TRECHERY AND LIES. Untoled tens of thousands of Iraqi men, women and CHILDREN have been murdered in this illegal and immoral invasion. 2,000 American servicemen and women have been murdered in this illegal and immoral invasion. Our nation is being put more at risk every day by this conflict. HOW CAN ANY MORAL PERSON SUPPORT THIS?

The "Terrorists" are Rumsfeld and Cheney and Bush and Rice. THEY are behind 9/11. THEY brought on this "war" . THEY have killed and maimed and tortured tens of thousands. Get rid of them and the people who put them in their offices (and I do NOT mean the voters) and then we can work out the Middle east. We really can!
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
84. The Iraq invasion is a war crime.
Anyone who had a hand in supporting it, get's no support from me.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #84
91. I don't consider criticism of Hillary on this issue 'eating our own'. I
am very tired of not being able to express my opinions without someone implying by that sort of comment that I am a traitor to the party. I have been a democrat since I was eighteen and among the first of that group to vote nationally. I have never missed a vote. I remember viet nam like it was yesterday. If hillary clinton is the best the dems can do, god help us. No one is entitled to the presidency, no one is immune from criticism. That is the repug's policy among their own kind. I will criticise clinton because she deserves it. Died in vain? For god sake. Put your own damned kid in there if this war is so just. Make a sacrifice for your beliefs hillary or shut the fuck up.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #91
100. Cindy kicked Bush's ass better than Hillary could ever dream of doing.
n/t
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Skelington Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. I agree 90% of what you say,
I'm sick to death of the belief that.. to be a Democrat you cannot have critical opinions of another Democrat. Hillary would not be effective, Clark would.

The thing I disagree with is the notion of telling somebody that they should send their kid to war to make a point is wrong. Be it a Clinton or a bush, The children have the right to join the military, or not. "Put your own damned kid in there if this war is so just. Make a sacrifice for your beliefs or shut the fuck up." implies that Hillary should sacrifice her daughter in order to lend credit to her, in your eyes. I've heard that several times before, not picking on you I just don't think that ANY men or women should drafted or sent into military service, not to prove a point. Doesn't the "kid" have a say if he/she thinks the war is wrong or right ?
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
92. Cindy, I love ya, but lay off Democrats...unless you're gonna
get after ALL of them who share Hillary's boat with her.

Personally, I think Cindy loses credibility the instant her focus shifts from Bush to Democrats.

Hillary didn't lie to get us into the war in Iraq. George Bush did. Comparing Hillary to Rush Limbaugh is a low blow, totally unfair, and will prove to be a terrible mistake for Cindy.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. Cindy is not forcing Hillary to support Bush's war based on lies.
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 01:22 PM by Dr Fate
Cindy opposes the war, Hillary is for it.

Cindy's kid went and died for this lie, Hillary's kid has not and will not.

Cindy never claimed to be a partisan Democrat- she is opposed to the Iraq War. She admits she is a "one issue" activist.

Hillary refused to listen to the Democratic base, who BEGGED her not to trust Bush by voting for this war based on lies. Hillary refused the base and went with Bush- and that is not Cindy's fault.

It's actually not unfair for her to compare Hill's quotes to Rush's quotes about "finishing the job", "we cant let the troops die in vain" and refering to those opposed to wars based on lies as "nay-sayers."- These quotes are virtually identical to things Rush and other far-right Republicans have said.

Cindy kicked Bush's ass harder than Hillary ever could.
We need MORE Cindy Sheehans who OPPOSE wars based on lies and less Hillary Clintons who think they are just fine.

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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. didn't cindy once support the war?
and she didn't turn until the papers of Downing street and other lies were shown?.then she turned hostile to wards all war supporters?

As with the Congress....they were also duped into the war when bush claimed the yellow cake and WMDS...that Saddam could strike the US......these people should have been held accountable yes, for the very fact.that these facts were not checked out...........but Cindy also believed them at first!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. So Hillary has never read the DSM herself then?
I have yet to hear Hillary even utter a single sentence about the DSM.

At least Sheehan, a private citizen with zero influnece at the time, admits her opinion was wrong.
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
103. let her stay in the Senate where whe will do less damage
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