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Check12 Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 03:45 PM
Original message
Daily Kos commenter thinks ahead on plamegate (good read!)
* I'm as amazed (4.00 / 4)

as anyone about the pieces coming together, about the indictments coming down, and about the possibility of the entire corrupt edifice being toppled (although I am choosing to keep the euphoria in check for now, just in case).

But more importantly, if indeed Fitzmas is coming and the Grand Jury indictments blow the cover off the entire neocon thinktank/conservative/DC/abuse of power/corruption/kickback/electionfraud axis, then we, the people, should be thinking about what our demands should be in the aftermath:

what will we consider adequate and satisfactory as far as full disclosure of facts and events?

how do we want to hold all responsible parties accountable for their actions, omissions, aiding and abetting, etc., of the crimes that have been committed?

what oversight do we believe is essential to ensure that all procedures and actions are fully and completely followed, so that justice is truly done?

What are we calling for? Impeachment? Trials by jury? A truth and accountability commission? All of the above? What is the most effective instrument at our disposal to cleanse this country of the crimes that have been done?

And longer term:

what reforms, changes, laws, regulations, controls, oversights do we believe are vital to implement to ensure that this kind of abuse of power can never happen again?

How do we guarantee transparancy in government?

How do we make it impossible for shadow governments or shadow power-brokers to function in DC and beyond?

How do we get the corrosive effects of masses of unregulated, unchecked money out of politics?

How do we intend to hold media accountable, so that never again can a criminal enterprise like Bushco ever regain control over the levers of power?


And there are many more questions like this to be addressed. We are assuming that indictments will automatically lead to perp-walks and jail time, etc., but if we look at past cover-ups, the responsible are seldom held accountable - deals have been struck, pardons issued, leaving we, the people, to vent our outrage somewhat impotently after the fact.

We need, instead, to get our demands worked out and clearly articulated in advance, so that at the very same time that people are socked with the shock of indictments, we are ready to shape the response. We cannot just sit back and presume that proper procedures will be followed, that the experts (who we assume must exist) will direct the course of events.

As soon as it becomes clear that there is a "there" there, let's be ready to fill the pause, the silence, with clear, articulate and precise demands about what has to happen next. If we think our elected representatives will get the job done, we're wrong. We need to be there, steering, guiding, demanding, insisting.

So, let's get informed about the options. Let's determine what should happen. Let's consult all the relevant experts (constitutional lawyers, constitutional historians, political historians, parliamentary procedure experts, criminal lawyers, prosecutors, etc. etc.) so that we are ready with our demands.

Otherwise we risk sitting back, filled with a (justified) sense of self-congratulaion, while the entire project of justice sinks under the screaming outrage of the shills. Let's not let that happen this time.

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/10/19/145557/54
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. So what are the prowar Dems going to do now
Will Hillary still say she won't let them die in vain
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Al From will blame liberals for the nation's debacle
and he will advise Democrats in Congress to hold their fire and not to impeach Bush.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nixon out 1974, Reagan In 1980
Bush out 1992, Bunnypants in 2000

Yep, there's a lesson here.

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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think some things could be self correcting
Like the media, they will learn a great lesson and be less likely to follow the pied piper next time. But I think that punishment for the primarys in this case should be stripped of their assets (right down to their last penny) assigned a street corner in some poverty stricken urban area and given a sign stating that they will work for food!
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Check12 Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It would be so poetic if they were
sent to jail based on provisions of the patriot act!

Ha!!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. How?
By getting rid of the corrupt ones and putting people who care about America and who care about people back in charge.

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LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. For one thing, some laws on transparency in government are needed.
Stop groups such as WHIG and Cheney's energy group from being able to hide their activities, unless national security is seriously endangered by release of the info. (and that determination should not be left up to the person or organization that created the group)

This is a complicated question and I don't have the answers, but surely the American people are entitled to know what is going on.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Bingo! Transparency all around.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. national security should never ever trumph transparency n/t
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LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. What ablout information obtained abroad about threats to the US? nt
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. The key question
How do we make it impossible for shadow governments or shadow power-brokers to function in DC and beyond?

We let these thugs burrow their way into the bureaucracy (Linda Tripp, anyone?) and continue to get paid as lobbyists and think tank contributors. This time, we have to starve them out. There are some too rich to care, but a full boycott of people like DiGenova and his harpie wife, for two, might make them look for a nice business practice where no one knows who they are.
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Frustratedlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well, for starters..........
Total, complete, VERIFIABLE, details of who, when, where and how all of this took place. This is going deeper and deeper, and we need to know all the players. Also, I don't care if it is $1.97, I want all money returned (with interest) for their shenanigans, and this includes Halliburton, KBR, et al., plus the money supposedly lost in Iraq. All foreign accounts should also be confiscated.

Since the Iran Contra fiasco has also surfaced again, we need those documents unsealed. Didn't son seal them for poppa when he first took office? Any other coverups should be closely inspected and reversed, if necessary.

This entire mess started with the bogus elections, so I think GW should be stripped of his presidential service and should go down in history as a public disgrace...NOT as a former president. Same for Cheney. Neither of them ever amounted to anything and wouldn't even be in office if it weren't for cheating. Wipe the slate clean. Annul. Don't ever remind us they held office.

Eliminate the tax cuts GW threw in our faces and wipe out any other program the citizenry deems necessary, as well as reinstate the environmental and corporate rules GW removed so his friends could make more money.

Immediately begin the process of bringing our military home from Iraq. I envision a vast easing of tension in Iraq just with the removal of these clowns and their entourage. Put the Iraqi people to work rebuilding their own country and let the oil flow again so they can pay for as much as possible. I can't believe they didn't give them employment on Day 1.

Immediately stop the No Child Left Behind idiocy and apologize to America's teachers and administrators for the pain and misery they have gone through with this ridiculous program. As for the children, we need to provide the money necessary to catch them up to where they would have been if GW hadn't been in the picture.

These are just a few...I'll add more when I cool off!
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Good ones
I would add:

Rescind the Patriot Acts immediately and review and possibly rescind the Constitution-destroying Drug Laws.

Outlaw Lobbyists for big corporations. Our representatives are supposed to be responsible to the people who elected them, not to huge corporations.

Names such as 'Homeland Security' need to go, and anything else that reminds us of the Nazi-like terminology given to us by these neocons, such as 'New World Order', need to be considered bad words from now on.

Limit the election campaign period to six months, and make it mandatory for the media to give free airtime to all candidates, reducing the need for campaign finances.

Most important, investigate thoroughly, what happened in the last election, ban the use of Diebold machines and return to paper ballots.

Regulate the media again, so that it is not owned by big corporate monopolies. Local TV and Radio stations must be local, eg.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of for now.

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Trish1168 Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I have some ideas
Although, I've heard some of these pushed from other sources and some of these ideas did not originate from me.

1. 100% publicly financed elections (this eliminates the campaign contributor conflict of interest). I think some hurdles should be put in (petitions and such), so that a new candidate should have to do leg work and develop an organization (or we'd have 1000 candidates).
2. All media that use the airwaves (as opposed to cable) should be forced to be 'spun off' into not for profit companies. This means the four networks (which have the biggest news ratings) would all be not-for-profit. In addition, there should be a regulation that says they have to devote X% of their money on news and investigative reporting (in case they decide to get out of the news business). These moves make the news a public service and takes the 'corporate filter' out of the picture.
3. The problem with spies and shadow governments is their secrecy. How dow we gather intelligence (which we need) without having the secrecy abused? My idea is to take the most reputable intelligence agents (the 'Fitzgerald' type of people) and start a new spy agency which reports to congress. It should be headed by a bi-partisan (equal numbers) intelligence committe (they can appoint a chief). This way, the politicians will be accountable to the people (once we get back to paper ballots). The mandate of this new spy service would be to spy on the other spies. In otherwords, their job will be to insure the integrity of the spies in the executive branch and to make sure the other spies are not breaking any laws in the course of their work. This might make an 'operation Condor' come to light quickly and get squashed.
4. I am concerned too about how easy it was for one party to manipulate the system to take power. There has been no oversight of the executive branch, because his party controls congress. We need a permanent special prosecutor law, and I would like to see some method to prosecute a president for serious crimes (not oral sex) when his party has control of congress. But, I'm not sure how you can do this without its being abused. This needs thought.

5. My last idea is something most people don't think about, yet the implications are profound. NO MORE FIAT (SLIDING) CURRENCY AND LIMITED POWER OF CENTRAL BANKS. I know this sounds bizarre, but there's a reason our constitution mandated silver and gold for our currency (it is ignored, like most of our constitution). The way to get around central banks is to have two currencies (a gold fixed dollar and gold grams). With current technology (debit cards, credit cards and checks) it is not inconvenient to use electronic gold grams (it was the inconvenience of coins which started the central bank and treasury to begin with). We could still have paper currency, but it has to be linked to gold.

Why is switching to gold currency or gold backed currency important? You have to think back to when they took us off the gold standard. It was in 1971 (during Vietnam), and Nixon did it. We could not pay for Johnson's great society and Vietnam unless we could borrow and print more money. Instead of choosing between guns and butter, we opted to have both. Oh, but there was a price to pay (besides the casualties). By the end of the '70's, we had an inflationary recession, which is what happens when money loses its value. And this is exactly what our central bankers are doing to us now. He who controls the money controls everything and when a currency is debased, it is literally like robbing a population. Just think, they could make us poor tommorrow, if they wanted to...just by printing too much money and taking away its value. In fact, they are doing exactly that. Oil is not expensive just because of demand. The value of the dollar has dropped ALOT since W has been in office. This drop in dollar value raises the prices of all commodities (oil, food and gold). By linking the dollar to gold and forcing institutions to accept electronic gold currency (in gold grams.....this would be an account you could open up, convert your cash to gold....then you could write checks in gold grams, etc)....it takes away the power of the central bankers and limits our government's power to engage in unpopular wars. All wars would have to be just wars, since we'd have to face the pain of sacrifice (like in WWII). So you might ask, well, why not just peg the dollar to gold again? The problem with that is the possibility of another Nixon coming along and unpegging it. Having both will help to prevent the type of highway robbery that is being done to us now.

Since we've unpegged our dollar from gold, we've had two unjust wars. Think about it. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Check12 Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Senators who looked the other way!
Senator Pat Roberts was the key player in arranging the authorship of last year's Senate Intelligence Committee report on Iraqi WMD intelligence failures. He also played a key part at several points (possibly passively, but probably actively) in ensuring that no real investigation into the origins of the forgeries ever took place.

I say go after every last one of the people that sold this illegal war. The criminalization of politics and the media must be exposed fully.

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